Part 50

Mr. GIVENS. He was over there in the bin filling orders.

Mr. BELIN. He was over in the bin filling orders?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir; they had some bins there.

Mr. BELIN. Did you talk to him at all?

Mr. GIVENS. No.

Mr. BELIN. Did you say hello, Lee?

Mr. GIVENS. No, sir; I didn't say anything to him. I just looked at him.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what he was wearing?

Mr. GIVENS. Well, I believe it was kind of a greenish looking shirt and pants was about the same color as his shirt, practically the same thing he wore all the time he worked there. He never changed clothes the whole time he worked there, and he would wear a grey looking jacket.

Mr. BELIN. All right. You saw him at 8:30 on the first floor?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. GIVENS. Well, we went back upstairs and started to work.

Mr. BELIN. You went back up to the sixth floor to continue laying the floor?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. When did you see Lee Harvey Oswald next?

Mr. GIVENS. Next?

Mr. BELIN. Yes.

Mr. GIVENS. Well, it was about a quarter till 12, we were on our way downstairs, and we passed him, and he was standing at the gate on the fifth floor.

I came downstairs, and I discovered I left my cigarettes in my jacket pocket upstairs, and I took the elevator back upstairs to get my jacket with my cigarettes in it. When I got back upstairs, he was on the sixth floor in that vicinity, coming from that way.

Mr. BELIN. Coming from what way?

Mr. GIVENS. Toward the window up front where the shots were fired from.

Mr. BELIN. Just a second, where did you go? Where were you when you saw him on the sixth floor?

Mr. GIVENS. I had went and got my jacket and was on my way back to the elevator.

Mr. BELIN. All right, just a second. I am going to get a plan of the sixth floor, if I have one, and try and have you point that out to me.

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Well, I don't seem to have a sixth floor plan here, but perhaps we can use another plan here to help us.

Here is a diagram of the front of the building. This is the Elm Street side, and you can see the arrow pointing north.

This perhaps would be a diagram of the third floor. You notice that there are one, two, three, four, five, six, seven sets of windows, right?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. On the Elm Street side, seven pairs of windows?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. You notice the two freight elevators toward the rear. Now did you see--when you first saw him on the sixth floor there, were you standing near any of these windows?

Mr. GIVENS. No, sir. I was over here by the elevators.

Mr. BELIN. You are pointing your finger to a spot which would be somewhat to the east of the east elevator, is that correct?

Mr. GIVENS. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. At a spot which is about on the same line as what I call the south side of the east elevator, and about as far east of the front part of that elevator as the distance from the front of the elevator to the back of the east elevator, is that about right?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. You were standing at that point, and where did you see Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. GIVENS. Well, I was along here [indicating].

Mr. BELIN. All right, you are pointing at a spot you say along in here?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. That would be near the east wall of the building?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. You can see a scale here that is from 0 to 20 feet. Well, it would be about 30 to 40 feet north of the south wall of that building, is that right?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. And around 10 feet or so away from the east wall, is that about right?

Mr. GIVENS. That is about right.

Mr. BELIN. Now, did you notice whether or not there were any cartons stacked up around the southeast corner of that sixth floor?

Mr. GIVENS. Well, I didn't pay any attention about any being stacked, because we had taken all that stock from that side of the building and ran it down that side.

Mr. BELIN. You had taken stock down from the west part of the sixth floor where you were working and put it there?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes; ran it down the side right in front of the window.

Mr. BELIN. Was he between that stock and the window, or was he on the other side of the window?

Mr. GIVENS. He was between the stock and the window, coming towards the elevators.

Mr. BELIN. Coming towards the elevators?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see all of his body or not?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir; he had his clipboard in his hand.

Mr. BELIN. He had his clipboard in his hand?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Was that kind of an aisleway over there right next to the east wall that he was walking along, or what?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir; they have aisles.

Mr. BELIN. Now, was there stock in back of him as well as in front of him? Were you where you had stacked it up, or not, or don't you remember?

Mr. GIVENS. Well, it was already some books stacked there.

Mr. BELIN. Were there books stacked between where you saw him and the window itself?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. All right, he was walking with his clipboard from that southeast corner?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Where did you see him walking? What direction did you see him walking in?

Mr. GIVENS. He was coming towards the elevators.

Mr. BELIN. From the Elm Street side of the building?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. So that would be walking in a northerly direction?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Now, you said that he had a clipboard in his hand?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes; he had his board with his orders on it.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see the orders on the board?

Mr. GIVENS. Well, yes, sir; he had it in his hand.

Mr. BELIN. Did he have any books in his hand that he was carrying?

Mr. GIVENS. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you ever fill orders in November on the sixth floor?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember whether or not there were any books or book cartons over in that corner from which he might have been filling orders?

Mr. GIVENS. Well, yes, sir; it was possible.

Mr. BELIN. It was possible?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you watch where he walked to?

Mr. GIVENS. Well, no, sir; I didn't pay much attention. I was getting ready to get on the elevator, and I say, "Boy, are you going downstairs?"

Mr. BELIN. What did he say to you?

Mr. GIVENS. I say, "It's near lunch time."

He said, "No, sir. When you get downstairs, close the gate to the elevator."

That meant the elevator on the west side, you can pull both gates down and it will come up by itself.

Mr. BELIN. What else did he say?

Mr. GIVENS. That is all.

Mr. BELIN. What did you say to that? Did you say you would close the elevator gate, or not say anything?

Mr. GIVENS. I said, "Okay," and got on the elevator.

Mr. BELIN. What elevator did you take down?

Mr. GIVENS. I taken this one.

Mr. BELIN. The east elevator?

Mr. GIVENS. The east elevator.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know whether or not when you got down to the first floor, the west elevator was there?

Mr. GIVENS. No, sir; it wasn't, because I looked over there to close the gate and it wasn't there.

Mr. BELIN. It wasn't there when you got down to the first floor?

Mr. GIVENS. No, sir; it wasn't.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know where it was?

Mr. GIVENS. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. BELIN. What time was this?

Mr. GIVENS. Well, I would say it was about 5 minutes to 12, then because it was----

Mr. BELIN. Now what did you do when you got down there on the first floor?

Mr. GIVENS. When I got down to the first floor Harold Norman, James Jarman and myself, we stood over by the window, and then we said we was going outside and watch the parade, so we walked out and we stood there a while, and then I said, "I believe I will walk up to the parking lot."

I had a friend that worked on the parking lot, right on Elm and Record.

Mr. BELIN. Elm and Record Streets?

Mr. GIVENS. Elm and Record Streets; yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. That would be one block to the east of the corner of Elm and Houston?

Mr. GIVENS. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. All right, then, what did you do?

Mr. GIVENS. I stood around over there and went up on the corner.

Mr. BELIN. What corner?

Mr. GIVENS. Up on Main and Record. That is where I watched the President pass right there.

Mr. BELIN. Who else was there with you that you knew?

Mr. GIVENS. James and Edward Shields.

Mr. BELIN. Is that the same person, James Edward?

Mr. GIVENS. Edward Shields and James.

Mr. BELIN. Two other people?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. You watched the motorcade together?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do after you watched the motorcade?

Mr. GIVENS. We turned and started back down to the parking lot.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. GIVENS. Then when we heard the shots, by the time we got along in front, right across in front of the Record Building, then we heard the shots.

Mr. BELIN. I want to backtrack a minute before we come to the shots. When did you eat lunch?

Mr. GIVENS. When did I eat lunch? I ate lunch after. Let's see, no; I ate lunch before I went up there, because I stood outside and ate my sandwich standing out there.

Mr. BELIN. You ate your lunch outside?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir. Standing in front of the building.

Mr. BELIN. In front of what building?

Mr. GIVENS. Texas School Book.

Mr. BELIN. Did you ever eat any lunch inside the building?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir; I eat inside the building all the time.

Mr. BELIN. On November 22, did you eat inside the building?

Mr. GIVENS. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Now you said you saw Lee Oswald on the sixth floor around 11:55?

Mr. GIVENS. Right.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see Lee Oswald anywhere else in the building between 11:55 and the time you left the building?

Mr. GIVENS. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. On November 22d?

Mr. GIVENS. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see him in the domino room at all around anywhere between 11:30 and 12 or 12:30?

Mr. GIVENS. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see him reading the newspaper?

Mr. GIVENS. No; not that day. I did--he generally sit in there every morning. He would come to work and sit in there and read the paper, the next day paper, like if the day was Tuesday, he would read Monday's paper in the morning when he would come to work, but he didn't that morning because he didn't go in the domino room that morning. I didn't see him in the domino room that morning.

Mr. BELIN. How do you know it was the previous day paper that he read?

Mr. GIVENS. Because he would be sitting there and I would look at him, when he got through and got up to go to work, I would get it and look at it.

Mr. BELIN. Would it be a News or Times Herald?

Mr. GIVENS. Well, they bring Dallas Morning News around in the morning. Fellows bring it to work.

Mr. BELIN. You mean he would read someone else's newspaper that somebody else brought to work?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you ever know him to buy his own newspaper?

Mr. GIVENS. No, sir; I never saw him buy one.

Mr. BELIN. Who generally brought the newspaper there?

Mr. GIVENS. Well, Harold Norman would generally bring one and James Jarman would generally bring one.

Mr. BELIN. Now you say you left the sixth floor. Well, you said you left it first to go--did you go down with the other employees on the elevator?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. About what time was that now?

Mr. GIVENS. That was about a quarter--I said about a quarter to 12.

Mr. BELIN. Who was on that elevator, do you remember?

Mr. GIVENS. That was Bonnie Ray Williams, and Billy Lovelady, and Danny and myself.

Mr. BELIN. That was Danny Arce?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes; a Spanish boy.

Mr. BELIN. Then you say you got down there and you say you wanted your cigarettes so you went back up?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What elevator did you go down on?

Mr. GIVENS. I came down on the east elevator.

Mr. BELIN. What elevator did you take back up?

Mr. GIVENS. The east elevator.

Mr. BELIN. That day had you eaten any chicken at all, or anything on the sixth floor?

Mr. GIVENS. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Had you eaten any chicken or left a pop bottle on any previous days on the sixth floor?

Mr. GIVENS. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you go immediately to your jacket when you went back up to the sixth floor?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir; I went straight and picked up my jacket.

Mr. BELIN. Where was your jacket?

Mr. GIVENS. It was on the west side of the building where we were working.

Mr. BELIN. Well, there are seven pairs of windows. Was it on the south wall of the building? Was it near any one of those windows on the south wall, or was it more to the center of the west side?

Mr. GIVENS. It was more to the corner on the west side. I would say along about the second window going.

Mr. BELIN. When you say the corner, do you mean the corner by the stairs or the southwest corner?

Mr. GIVENS. Southwest corner.

Mr. BELIN. You have shown the southwest corner?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir; along about here [indicating].

Mr. BELIN. You have pointed to a spot which appears to be approximately, oh, 25 feet north, and about 10 feet east of the southwest corner of the sixth floor. Would that be about right?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. You have pointed to a spot on this floor plan here. When you walked from the east elevator to pick up your jacket, did you see Lee Oswald there?

Mr. GIVENS. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see him anywhere on the sixth floor when you were walking off the elevator to pick up your jacket?

Mr. GIVENS. No, sir; I didn't see him until I got back along here, about in front of the elevator, fixing to get on.

Mr. BELIN. As you were walking to the first spot, which we will describe as somewhat east of the east elevator, were you standing or about to get on the elevator, or what?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes; I was fixing to get on.

Mr. BELIN. You were fixing to get on? The elevator was still there where you left it when you came up?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. As you were starting to get on the elevator or were turning to get on it, you saw Lee Oswald walking with his clipboard?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Now, was he walking in a diagonal direction directly toward you and the elevator, or was he walking more in a direction parallel to the east wall here?

Mr. GIVENS. Well, I would say yes, sir; he was going like this.

Mr. BELIN. He was going?

Mr. GIVENS. Coming down the aisle.

Mr. BELIN. Coming down the aisle straight?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else in his hand other than a clipboard? Did he have a pencil in his hand?

Mr. GIVENS. No, sir; I didn't pay any attention to him.

Mr. BELIN. When you got off the elevator, as you were coming back up to get your shirt, did you have any occasion as you were walking out of the elevator to look to see if there was anyone else on the floor?

Mr. GIVENS. Well, no, sir; I wasn't thinking of that. I just happened to glance around as I was on my way back.

Mr. BELIN. Did you glance around when you got off the elevator, do you remember?

Mr. GIVENS. Well, no, sir. I just walked off and turned and went right over there and picked my jacket up and started back.

Mr. BELIN. Did you look over in the southeast corner before as you were getting off the elevator?

Mr. GIVENS. Well, I kind of glanced that way when I turned to go around the corner.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see anyone over there at that time?

Mr. GIVENS. Not at that time, no, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember how high the books were by the southeast corner on the sixth floor?

Mr. GIVENS. Well, I would say about 10 feet from the window. In the aisle we had one pretty good stack of books there, one large stack.

Mr. BELIN. Would they have been as tall as you?

Mr. GIVENS. Well, yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. If a man would have been standing up there, would you have been able to see him?

Mr. GIVENS. No, sir; I wouldn't unless he moved down towards the north end of the building.

Mr. BELIN. Did anyone else use any of the elevators while you were up on the sixth floor getting your cigarettes?

Mr. GIVENS. Not that I know of; no, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you ever tell anyone that you saw Lee Oswald reading a newspaper in the domino room around 11:50, 10 minutes to 12 on that morning on November 22d?

Mr. GIVENS. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you ever observe Lee Oswald getting the newspaper in the domino room shortly before lunch on days other than November 22d?

Mr. GIVENS. Not before lunch. It would be right at lunch time.

Mr. BELIN. Right at lunch time?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir. We always ate in there.

Mr. BELIN. Would Oswald always eat in there?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. When you first went downstairs from the sixth floor to the first floor with the other men on those two elevators, you took two elevators, didn't you?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes; we took two down.

Mr. BELIN. Were you racing the elevators?

Mr. GIVENS. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. Who won?

Mr. GIVENS. Well, the east elevator beat the other one down, because it stopped quicker, but it had to adjust itself.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got down to the first floor before you went back up to the sixth floor again?

Mr. GIVENS. Well, I got a drink of water and reached for my cigarettes and I thought about I left them in my jacket pocket.

Mr. BELIN. Did you go to the rest room at all before you went back up to the sixth floor?

Mr. GIVENS. No, sir. Yes, sir, I believe I did. I went in and washed my hands, I sure did.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else before you went back up to the sixth floor?

Mr. GIVENS. No, sir; that was it.

Mr. BELIN. Now the first time when you left the sixth floor with these other men to take the two elevators down, did you at any time look over to the southeast corner of the sixth floor?

Mr. GIVENS. Well, no, sir; I didn't pay any attention the first time I was coming down.

Mr. BELIN. Where were you laying the new floor that morning? What portion of the sixth floor would it be?

Mr. GIVENS. West side.

Mr. BELIN. How much of the west side?

Mr. GIVENS. Well, we were working, I would say, about 10 feet from Elm Street.

Mr. BELIN. Well, you were pointing to right over this point here?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes sir.

Mr. BELIN. Well, looking at the scale, it would be about 10 feet from the--it would be more than 10 feet. Here is the scale.

This would be 20 feet, so it would be more than 20 feet from Elm Street?

Mr. GIVENS. About 20 feet, maybe so.

Mr. BELIN. Do you think it was closer to 10 feet than 20 feet from the Elm Street side of the west part of the sixth floor?

Mr. GIVENS. I believe it was somewhere in that vicinity.

Mr. BELIN. How close was it to the west wall on the sixth floor?

Mr. GIVENS. Well, we were, oh, I would say about 20 feet out from the wall, we had laid.

Mr. BELIN. Did anyone else ever comment to you as having seen Oswald on the sixth floor that morning?

Mr. GIVENS. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Now, is there anything else you can think of that happened that morning up to the time you heard the shot?

Mr. GIVENS. No, sir. Everything was all right until that.

Mr. BELIN. How many shots did you hear?

Mr. GIVENS. Three.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you heard them?

Mr. GIVENS. Well, we broke and ran down that way, and by the time we got to the corner down there of Houston and Elm, everybody was running, going toward the underpass over there by the railroad tracks.

And we asked--I asked someone--some white fellow there, "What happened?"

And he said, "Somebody shot the President." Like that. So I stood there for a while, and I went over to try to get to the building after they found out the shots came from there, and when I went over to try to get back in the officer at the door would't let me in.

Mr. BELIN. Did you tell him you worked there?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes; but he still wouldn't let me in. He told me he wouldn't let no one in.

Mr. BELIN. This was the front of Elm Street?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes. So I goes back over to the parking lot and I wait until I seen Junior.

Mr. BELIN. Is that Jarman?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes. They were on their way home, and they told me that they let them all go home for the evening, and I said, "I'd better go back and get my hat and coat."

So I started over there to pick up my hat and coat, and Officer Dawson saw me and he called me and asked me was my name Charles Givens, and I said, "Yes."

And he said, "We want you to go downtown and make a statement."

And he puts me in the car and takes me down to the city hall and I made a statement to Will Fritz down there.

Mr. BELIN. Did you ever see Lee Oswald at any time after the time you saw him carrying the clipboard on the sixth floor?

Mr. GIVENS. No, sir. The next time I saw him was on television.

Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else you can think of, whether I have asked it or not, that in any way is relevant to the assassination?

Mr. GIVENS. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else you can think of about Lee Oswald, whether I have asked it or not, that might in any way be helpful?

Mr. GIVENS. No, sir. Other than he is just a peculiar fellow. He is just a loner. Don't have much to say to anybody. Stayed by himself most of the time.

Mr. BELIN. Did you ever notice any one person there he was more friendly with than the other?

Mr. GIVENS. Well, this boy he rode with.

Mr. BELIN. Frazier?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir. Every once in a while I would see him talking to him. Bonnie Ray told me--I never saw him, but Bonnie Ray told me he talked to he and Danny sometimes.

Mr. BELIN. Anyone else?

Mr. GIVENS. Not that I know of; no, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else you can think of?

Mr. GIVENS. No, sir; that is about it.

Mr. BELIN. Well, Mr. Givens, we surely appreciate your cooperation in coming down here.

Now you and I didn't talk about this at all until we started taking this deposition, did we?

Mr. GIVENS. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. You walked into the room and you raised your right hand and we started taking your testimony. Is that correct?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Have I ever met you before?

Mr. GIVENS. I don't believe so. I don't believe I have.

Mr. BELIN. You have an opportunity to come back here and read this and sign it if you want, or else you can just waive signing and have the court reporter send it directly to Washington. Do you want to come back and read and sign it or do you want to just have the court reporter just send it to Washington?

Mr. GIVENS. Would it be necessary to come back?

Mr. BELIN. No, sir; it is not. You can waive it if you desire to do it. Do you want to waive it?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. All right, thank you. We will see you.

TESTIMONY OF TROY EUGENE WEST

The testimony of Troy Eugene West was taken at 10:30 a.m., on April 8, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. West, would you raise your right hand, please.

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. WEST. I do.

Mr. BELIN. You want to sit down now, please. Will you please state your name for the record? Your name is Troy Eugene West?

Mr. WEST. Troy Eugene West.

Mr. BELIN. How old are you, Mr. West?

Mr. WEST. Well, I was born in 1907. That would be 57, I think.

Mr. BELIN. Were you born in Texas?

Mr. WEST. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. You go to school at all in Texas?

Mr. WEST. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. How far did you get through school?

Mr. WEST. Well, I went to the seventh grade.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. WEST. Well; I had to come out of school and go to work.

Mr. BELIN. You started working then?

Mr. WEST. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you started working? Where did you work?

Mr. WEST. On the farm.

Mr. BELIN. On the farm?

Mr. WEST. On the farm, yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. How long did you stay on the farm?

Mr. WEST. Oh, I stayed on the farm until way up after I got grown. I was way up past--I guess I was about 24.