Part 5

Dr. CLARK. Dr. Shaw described Governor Connally's chest wound. He described what was done for him, the operation in some detail. He described the fact that Governor Connally was conscious up until the time he was anesthetized in the operating room.

Mr. SPECTER. And what did Dr. Shires say at that time?

Dr. CLARK. Dr. Shires described the wounds suffered by Oswald and what was done in an attempt to save him.

Mr. SPECTER. And how about Dr. Gieseke, what did he say?

Dr. CLARK. Dr. Gieseke corroborated Dr. Shaw's statements regarding Governor Connally's condition and his remaining conscious until he was anesthetized by Dr. Gieseke.

Mr. SPECTER. What did Dr. Baxter say at that conference?

Dr. CLARK. Dr. Baxter described President Kennedy's condition as he saw it, stated that he had assisted in the placing in the chest tubes on President Kennedy, and that he had been present at Oswald's operation.

Mr. SPECTER. Did Dr. Baxter describe the neck wound that President Kennedy suffered with specific respect as to whether it was point of entry or exit?

Dr. CLARK. I don't remember--I don't believe he did.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, have we covered all the doctors who spoke at that press conference?

Dr. CLARK. Except Dr. Jenkins.

Mr. SPECTER. And what did Dr. Jenkins say at that time?

Dr. CLARK. Dr. Jenkins described being called to attend President Kennedy, how he got there with his anesthesia machine, that he found an endotracheal tube had already been inserted. He hooked up and he described the activities in the emergency room, operating room No. 1, and he described the stopping of the President's heart and the decision to pronounce him dead. He went ahead to describe the operation on Mr. Oswald and the extent of blood loss, etc., which he had sustained.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, were you involved in still a subsequent press conference?

Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir; I was.

Mr. SPECTER. And with whom was that press conference?

Dr. CLARK. This was with NBC and was approximately 2 weeks after the assassination.

Mr. SPECTER. And who arranged that press conference?

Dr. CLARK. Mr. Landregan.

Mr. SPECTER. And was that filmed?

Dr. CLARK. Yes, that was also filmed.

Mr. SPECTER. And who spoke at that time?

Dr. CLARK. I spoke alone as a representative of the department and so stated in the conference.

Mr. SPECTER. And what did you say at that time?

Dr. CLARK. Essentially the same thing as had been stated before.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, were you a part of still another press conference?

Dr. CLARK. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. When was that?

Dr. CLARK. The week after the assassination.

Mr. SPECTER. And with whom was that press conference?

Dr. CLARK. With BBC.

Mr. SPECTER. Who arranged that?

Dr. CLARK. Mr. Landregan, again.

Mr. SPECTER. And did anyone else participate in that press conference with you?

Dr. CLARK. No.

Mr. SPECTER. And was that televised, filmed, or simply recorded?

Dr. CLARK. It was simply recorded.

Mr. SPECTER. And what did you say at that time?

Dr. CLARK. Exactly the same thing as I have said at the previous conferences, describing the President's condition, his wound, and what transpired after I arrived.

Mr. SPECTER. At any of the press conferences were you asked about a hole on the left side of the President's head?

Dr. CLARK. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. At which conference or conferences?

Dr. CLARK. I was asked about this at the CBS conference and I stated that I personally saw no such wound.

Mr. SPECTER. And who asked you about it at that time, if you recall?

Dr. CLARK. The man who was conducting the conference. This was brought up by one of the physicians, I think Dr. McClelland, that there was some discussion of such a wound.

Mr. SPECTER. Did Dr. McClelland say that he had seen such a wound?

Dr. CLARK. No.

Mr. SPECTER. What was the origin, if you know, as to the inquiry on the wound, that is, who suggested that there might have been a wound on the left side?

Dr. CLARK. I don't recall--I don't recall.

Mr. SPECTER. Had there been some comment that the priests made a comment that there was a wound on the left side of the head?

Dr. CLARK. I heard this subsequently from one of the reporters who attended the press conference with NBC.

Mr. SPECTER. Were priests actually in trauma room 1?

Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Where were they in relation to the President at that time?

Dr. CLARK. They were on the right side of the President's body.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, you described the massive wound at the top of the President's head, with the brain protruding; did you observe any other hole or wound on the President's head?

Dr. CLARK. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe, to make my question very specific, a bullet hole or what appeared to be a bullet hole in the posterior scalp, approximately 2.5 cm. laterally to the right, slightly above the external occipital protuberant, measuring 15 by 6 mm.

Dr. CLARK. No, sir; I did not. This could have easily been hidden in the blood and hair.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any bullet wounds or any other wound on the back side of the President?

Dr. CLARK. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. SPECTER. Was the President ever turned over while he was in the emergency room?

Dr. CLARK. Not in my presence; no, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And did you leave before, with, or after all the other doctors who were in attendance?

Dr. CLARK. I left after all the other doctors who were in attendance, because I stayed with Dr. Burkley until we had the death certificate signed and the arrangements had been made to transport the President's body out of Parkland Hospital.

Mr. SPECTER. You say Dr. Burkley or Buckley?

Dr. CLARK. Dr. Burkley.

Mr. SPECTER. That's the President's private physician?

Dr. CLARK. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Clark, would your observations be consistent with some other alleged facts in this matter, such as the presence of a lateral wound measuring 15 by 6 mm. on the posterior scalp approximately 2.5 cm. laterally to the right and slightly above the external occipital proturberant--that is to say, could such a hole have been present without your observing it?

Dr. CLARK. Yes, in the presence of this much destruction of skull and scalp above such a wound and lateral to it and the brief period of time available for examination--yes, such a wound could be present.

Mr. SPECTER. The physicians, surgeons who examined the President at the autopsy specifically, Commander James J. Humes, H-u-m-e-s (spelling); Commander J. Thornton Boswell, B-o-s-w-e-l-l (spelling), and Lt. Col. Pierre A. Finck, F-i-n-c-k (spelling), expressed the joint opinion that the wound which I have just described as being 15 by 6 mm. and 2.5 cm. to the right and slightly above the external occipital protuberant was a point of entrance of a bullet in the President's head at a time when the President's head was moved slightly forward with his chin dropping into his chest, when he was riding in an open car at a slightly downhill position. With those facts being supplied to them in a hypothetical fashion, they concluded that the bullet would have taken a more or less straight course, exiting from the center of the President's skull at a point indicated by an opening from three portions of the skull reconstructed, which had been brought to them--would those findings and those conclusions be consistent with your observations if you assumed the additional facts which I have brought to your attention, in addition to those which you have personally observed?

Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Clark, in the line of your specialty, could you comment as to the status of the President with respect to competency, had he been able to survive the head injuries which you have described and the total wound which he had?

Dr. CLARK. This, of course, is a question of tremendous importance. Just let me state that the loss of cerebrellar tissue would probably have been of minimal consequence in the performance of his duties. The loss of the right occipital and probably part of the right parietal lobes would have been of specific importance. This would have led to a visual field deficit, which would have interfered in a major way with his ability to read, not the interpretation of reading matter per se, but the acquisition of information from the printed page. He would have had specific difficulty with finding the next line in a book or paper. This would have proven to be a specific handicap in getting information on which, as the President of the United States, he would have to act.

How much damage he would have had to his motor system, that is, the ability to control or coordinate his left extremities, I would not know. This conceivably could have been a problem in enabling him to move about, to appear in public, et cetera. Finally, and probably most important, since the brain, as far as at its higher levels, largely as a unit, the loss of this much brain tissue likely would have impaired his ability in abstract reasoning, imagination; whereas, the part of the President's brain struck is not that part specifically concerned with these matters. The effect of loss of considerable brain tissue does affect the total performance of the organ in these matters. There would be grave doubts in my mind as to our ability as physicians to give a clear answer regarding his ability to function as President of the United States.

Our ability to judge this is sometimes sorely tried when dealing with people with considerably less intellectual and moral demands made upon them.

Mr. SPECTER. Doctor, did you prepare certain written reports based on your participation in the treatment of President Kennedy?

Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. SPECTER. And I now show you a document which has been supplied to the President's Commission, which we have marked as Commission Exhibit No. 392, and I now show you the second and third sheets, which purport to be the summary made by you and ask if that was prepared by you?

Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir; it was.

Mr. SPECTER. And, are the facts set forth in those two sheets true and correct?

Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And I now show you a 2-3/4-page summary which purports to bear your signature, being dated November 22, 1963, and I ask you if that, in fact, is your signature?

Dr. CLARK. Yes; it is.

Mr. SPECTER. And, was, in fact, this report made in your own hand concerning the treatment which you rendered to the President?

Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And are the facts set forth therein true and correct?

Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you made any other written report or other writings of any sort concerning this matter?

Dr. CLARK. No; I have not.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you been interviewed or discussed this matter with any Federal representative prior to today?

Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir; I have.

Mr. SPECTER. And whom did you talk to?

Dr. CLARK. I talked to an FBI agent a few days after the assassination, in Mr. Jack Price's office.

Mr. SPECTER. And who is Mr. Price, for the record at this point?

Dr. CLARK. He is the administrator of Parkland Memorial Hospital. This agent asked me if I had recovered any missiles or fragments of missiles from the President's body. I said I did not, and he asked me if I knew of anyone in Parkland Hospital who had recovered such evidence and I assured him I did not.

Mr. SPECTER. Did he ask you anything further?

Dr. CLARK. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you tell him anything further?

Dr. CLARK. No, sir. I offered to answer any questions he might have asked and he said that was all he wished to know.

Mr. SPECTER. And did you talk to any other representative of the Federal Government at any time before today?

Dr. CLARK. Yes; I talked to a member of the Secret Service approximately a month after the assassination. I talked to him on two occasions, once by phone, and he asked me if I had a copy of the written report submitted by Dr. Ronald Jones, and I told him I did not.

I subsequently talked to him in person. He showed me the summary that I prepared and sent to Dr. Burkley, the same document I just identified here, and my own handwritten report of the events of the afternoon of the 22d of November. He asked me if I prepared these and I told him I had. He asked me if I had any other written records. I told him I did not. He said, "Do you have any additional information than you have written?" I said I did not. He thanked me very much for coming.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you now summarized all of the conversations you have had with any representative of the Federal Government prior to today?

Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And have you had any conversations with any representative of the State government prior to today?

Dr. CLARK. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Before you were sworn in to have your deposition taken, did you and I have a discussion about this matter?

Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir; a pleasant discussion of what the function of this Commission is.

Mr. SPECTER. And, also, all of what I would be asking once the record was open and we started taking your deposition?

Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And have we covered on the record with the court reporter transcribing all the subjects which you and I discussed informally and prior to the start of the more formal session here?

Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything which you would care to add, which you think might possibly be helpful to the Commission in any way, Dr. Clark?

Dr. CLARK. No, sir; I'm afraid I don't.

Mr. SPECTER. Thank you very much for coming. We surely appreciate it, Dr. Clark. Thank you, Dr. Clark.

Dr. CLARK. Thank you.

TESTIMONY OF DR. KEMP CLARK RESUMED

The testimony of Dr. Kemp Clark was taken at 12:05 p.m., on March 25, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that Dr. Kemp Clark has returned to have a few additional questions asked of him following the deposition which was taken on March 21.

Dr. Clark, the purpose of this additional deposition is the same as the first one, except that I am going to ask you a few additional questions based upon a translation of an article which appeared in "L' Express", which has been provided to me since the deposition of last Saturday.

Would you please stand up again and raise your right hand?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you will give before the President's Commission in this deposition proceeding will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Dr. CLARK. I do.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Clark, I have made available to you, have I not, what purports to be a translation from French of the "L' Express" issue of February 20, 1964?

Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And let me read for the record and for you this excerpt.

"On his part according to the New York Times of November 27, 'Dr. Kemp Clark, who signed the Kennedy death certificate, declared that a bullet hit him right where the knot of his necktie was.' He added," apparently referring to you, "'this bullet penetrated into his chest and did not come out'. The surgeon went on to say that the second wound of the President was 'tangential' and that it had been caused by a bullet which hit 'the right side of his head'".

Dr. Clark, my first question is--what, if anything, did you say to a New York Times representative or anyone, for that matter, with respect to whether a bullet hit the President where the knot of his necktie was.

Dr. CLARK. I remember using the phrase to describe the location of a wound in the President's throat as being at the point of his knot of his necktie. I do not recall ever specifically stating that this was an entrance wound, as has been said before. I was not present when the President arrived and did not see this wound. If any statement regarding its entrance or exit was made by me, it was indicating that there was a small wound described there by the physicians who first saw the President.

A specific quotation regarding entrance or exit, I feel, is a partial quotation or incompletely quoted from me. The part pertaining to the bullet entering the President's chest rests on the reasons for the placing of the chest tubes which were being inserted when I arrived. It was the assumption, based on the previously described deviation of the trachea and the presence of blood in the strap muscles of the neck that a wound or missile wound might have entered the President's chest.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, what was there, Dr. Clark, in the deviation of the trachea and the presence of blood in the strap muscles of the neck which so indicated?

Dr. CLARK. Assuming that a missile had entered the pleural space, if there had been bleeding into the pleural space, the trachea would have been deviated or had there been leakage of air into the pleural space, the trachea would have been deviated, as it is the main conduit of air to the two lungs. Collapse of a lung would have produced, or will produce deviation of the trachea. There being a wound in the throat, there being blood in the strap muscles and there being deviation of the trachea in the presence of a grievously wounded patient without opportunity for X-ray or other diagnostic measures, Dr. Perry assumed that the findings in the neck were due to penetration of the missile into the chest. For this reason, he requested chest tubes to be placed.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, is the deviation of the trachea and the presence of bleeding on the strap muscles of the neck and the other factors which you have recited equally consistent with a wound of exit on the neck?

Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir. Furthermore, let me say that the presence of the deviation of the trachea, with blood in the strap muscles, are by no means diagnostic of penetration of the chest, and the placing of the chest tubes was prophylactic had such an eventuality occurred.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there any external indication that there was a missile in the chest?

Dr. CLARK. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Was it the preliminary thought that the missile might have been in the chest by virtue of the fact that this wound was noted on the neck?

Dr. CLARK. Yes; with the other factors I have enumerated.

Mr. SPECTER. And at that time, not knowing what the angle might have been or any of the surrounding circumstances, then you proceeded to take precautionary measures as if there might have been a missile in the chest at some point?

Dr. CLARK. That is correct. Measures were taken, assuming the worst had happened.

Mr. SPECTER. As the quotation appears in the issue of "L' Express," "This bullet penetrated into his chest and did not come out," would that then be an accurate quotation of something that you said, Dr. Clark?

Dr. CLARK. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Clark, while you are here again, I would like to ask you a few additional questions.

Let the record show that since I have taken your deposition, I have taken the depositions of many additional witnesses and none has been transcribed, so I am not in a position to refer to a record to see what I asked you before or to frankly recollect precisely what I asked you before, so, to some extent these questions may be overlapping.

Did you observe the President's back at that time when he was in the emergency room?

Dr. CLARK. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. What was the reason for your not looking at his back?

Dr. CLARK. First, the duration of time that the President was alive in the emergency room was a brief duration. All efforts were bent toward saving his life rather than inspection for precise location of wounds. After his death it was not our position to try to evaluate all of the conceivable organs or areas of the body, knowing that an autopsy would be performed and that this would be far more meaningful than a cursory external examination here.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there any bleeding wound in the President's back?

Dr. CLARK. In the back of his head.

Mr. SPECTER. But how about on the back of his body, was there any bleeding wound noted?

Dr. CLARK. Since we did not turn the President over, I cannot answer that specifically. We saw none, as I previously stated.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you undertake any action to ascertain whether there had been a violation to a major extent of the back part of his body?

Dr. CLARK. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. That is, none was taken by you personally?

Dr. CLARK. That's correct.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Carrico testified earlier today, being the first doctor to reach him, that he felt the President's back to determine whether there was any major violation of that area.

Would that be a customary action to take to ascertain whether there was any major wound, by the doctor who first examined the patient?

Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Assuming that the President had a bullet wound of entry on the upper right posterior thorax, just above the upper border of the scapula, 14 cms. from the right acromion process, 14 cm. below the tip of the right mastoid process, would there have been a bloody type wound?

Dr. CLARK. I'm sorry--your question?

Mr. SPECTER. Would such a wound of entry by a missile traveling approximately 2,000 feet per second, approximately 6.5 mm. in diameter, cause a bloody type of a wound?

Dr. CLARK. No, sir. Such a wound could have easily been overlooked in the presence of the much larger wound in the right occipital region of the President's skull, from which considerable blood loss had occurred which stained the back of his head, neck and upper shoulders.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Clark, I want to ask you a question as it is raised here in "L' Express".

"How did the practitioner who signed the death certificate of the President fail to take the trouble to turn him over?"

Of course, that refers to you and will you give me your answer to that question, as the news media has posed it?

Dr. CLARK. Quite simply, as I previously stated, the duration of time the President was alive was occupied by attempts to save his life. When these failed, further examination of the patient's body was not done, as it was felt that little could be gained or learned that would be helpful in deciding the course of events leading up to his assassination, that is, examination by me, as I knew an autopsy would be performed which would be far more meaningful and revealing than any cursory external examination conducted in the emergency room by me.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, was the action taken by you in signing the death certificate based upon the examination which you made in accordance with what you believed to be good medical practice?

Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. So that the characterization here of "L' Express" that the failure to turn the President over would not constitute gross negligence in your professional judgment, as they have characterized it here.

Dr. CLARK. No, sir. One other point, if I may here?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes.

Dr. CLARK. In order to move the President's body to Bethesda where the autopsy was to be performed, a death certificate had to be filled out in conformance with Texas State law to allow the body to be transported. This is the second part of the signing of the death certificate.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add, Dr. Clark, which you think might be helpful at all in the inquiry being made by the President's Commission?

Dr. CLARK. No; I don't think so.

Mr. SPECTER. And did you and I chat for just a moment or two about the questions I would ask you on this supplemental deposition before it went on the record?

Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And have you talked to any representative of the Federal Government between the time I took your deposition last Saturday and this Wednesday morning?

Dr. CLARK. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Thank you very much, Dr. Clark.

Dr. CLARK. All right.

TESTIMONY OF DR. ROBERT NELSON McCLELLAND