Part 49

Mr. BALL. Do you have a dock on the west side and one on the north side of the building?

Mr. LOVELADY. East, and well, it would be east and west but you enter it from the south side.

Mr. BALL. Now, the south side----

Mr. LOVELADY. Elm Street is that little dead-end street.

Mr. BALL. That's south.

Mr. LOVELADY. I drive my truck here (indicating) but we came in from this direction; that would have to be west.

Mr. BALL. You came into the building from the west side?

Mr. LOVELADY. Right.

Mr. BALL. Where did you go into the building?

Mr. LOVELADY. Through that, those raised-up doors.

Mr. BALL. Through the raised-up doors?

Mr. LOVELADY. Through that double door that we in the morning when we get there we raised. There's a fire door and they have two wooden doors between it.

Mr. BALL. You came in through the first floor?

Mr. LOVELADY. Right.

Mr. BALL. Who did you see in the first floor?

Mr. LOVELADY. I saw a girl but I wouldn't swear to it it's Vickie.

Mr. BALL. Who is Vickie?

Mr. LOVELADY. The girl that works for Scott, Foresman.

Mr. BALL. What is her full name?

Mr. LOVELADY. I wouldn't know.

Mr. BALL. Vickie Adams?

Mr. LOVELADY. I believe so.

Mr. BALL. Would you say it was Vickie you saw?

Mr. LOVELADY. I couldn't swear.

Mr. BALL. Where was the girl?

Mr. LOVELADY. I don't remember what place she was but I remember seeing a girl and she was talking to Bill or saw Bill or something, then I went over and asked one of the guys what time it was and to see if we should continue working or what.

Mr. BALL. Did you see any other people on the first floor?

Mr. LOVELADY. Oh, yes; by that time there were more; a few of the guys had come in.

Mr. BALL. And you stayed on the first door then?

Mr. LOVELADY. I would say 30 minutes. And one of the policemen asked me would I take them up on the sixth floor.

Mr. BALL. Did you take them up there?

Mr. LOVELADY. Yes, sir; I sure did.

Mr. BALL. Mr. Lovelady, your testimony will be written up and it can be submitted to you for your signature if you wish and you can make any changes, or you can waive signature and we will make this your final----

Mr. LOVELADY. I want this to be the final one.

Mr. BALL. All right; you waive signature?

Mr. LOVELADY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Thanks very much.

TESTIMONY OF FRANKIE KAISER

The testimony of Frankie Kaiser was taken at 2:30 p.m., on April 8, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BALL. Will you hold up your right hand and be sworn, please?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before the Commission shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. KAISER. I do.

Mr. BALL. Will you give me your name, please?

Mr. KAISER. Frankie Kaiser.

Mr. BALL. What is your address?

Mr. KAISER. 5230 West Ledbetter in Duncanville.

Mr. BALL. What is your occupation?

Mr. KAISER. Warehouse workman at the Texas School Book Depository.

Mr. BALL. How long have you worked for that company?

Mr. KAISER. Oh, just about 2 years.

Mr. BALL. What time do you go to work down there?

Mr. KAISER. Eight o'clock in the morning.

Mr. BALL. What date did you go to work for them?

Mr. KAISER. It was August 24, 1962.

Mr. BALL. Where did you go to school?

Mr. KAISER. Texas--Texarkana, Ark.

Mr. BALL. Were you born there?

Mr. KAISER. No, sir; I was born in Omaha, Nebr.

Mr. BALL. And then you went to school in Texarkana, did you?

Mr. KAISER. Right.

Mr. BALL. And what did you do after you got out of school?

Mr. KAISER. I never finished.

Mr. BALL. How far did you go?

Mr. KAISER. I went to the tenth grade and quit and went in the service and went in for 6 months in the National Guards and come out and then came to Dallas and started to work and I worked for Morrises.

Mr. BALL. You worked for whom?

Mr. KAISER. Morris Warehouse.

Mr. BALL. Then what did you do after that?

Mr. KAISER. I worked there for about 3 years and then I started to work over there.

Mr. BALL. You started to work over at the Texas School Book Depository?

Mr. KAISER. Yes--then I got married.

Mr. BALL. You did--what kind of work do you do at the Texas School Book Depository?

Mr. KAISER. Drive a truck--fill orders--just about anything that needs to be done.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever know a fellow by the name of Lee Oswald that worked there?

Mr. KAISER. Not personally--I would know him when I would see him.

Mr. BALL. Did you work in the same building with him?

Mr. KAISER. Same building.

Mr. BALL. Where were you when the President's parade went by?

Mr. KAISER. At the Baylor Dental College.

Mr. BALL. Where?

Mr. KAISER. At the Baylor Dental College.

Mr. BALL. Sir, you weren't anywhere near the School Book Depository?

Mr. KAISER. No, sir; I was off Thursday and Friday with abscessed tooth. I was sitting in the chair and when I got off, we was out in the lobby watching it on TV down at the dental college there.

Mr. BALL. When did you go back to work?

Mr. KAISER. It was the following Monday.

Mr. BALL. That would be the 25th, wouldn't it?

Mr. KAISER. Yes, sir; I believe so--the 25th.

Mr. BALL. Now, one day you found a clipboard, didn't you?

Mr. KAISER. Yes; it was about a week later. I went upstairs, you see, the corner I found it in--we keep a certain teacher's edition of Catholic handbooks.

Mr. BALL. I didn't quite hear that--Catholic what?

Mr. KAISER. We keep our teacher's edition of Catholic "Think and Do" books.

Mr. BALL. I didn't quite hear that--Catholic what?

Mr. KAISER. We keep our teacher's edition of Catholic books--separated.

Mr. BALL. You do?

Mr. KAISER. Yes, sir; and I went up there to get a teacher's edition.

Mr. BALL. On what floor?

Mr. KAISER. On the sixth floor.

Mr. BALL. Now, what part of the sixth floor is this Catholic edition located?

Mr. KAISER. It was in that corner.

Mr. BALL. And in what corner is that?

Mr. KAISER. Let's see----

Mr. BALL. Without saying north or south, was it near the elevator? Or the stairway?

Mr. KAISER. Yes, it was right in front of the elevator.

Mr. BALL. Where was it with reference to the stairway?

Mr. KAISER. It was right next to the stairway--right in the corner.

Mr. BALL. Right in the corner next to the stairway, is that right?

Mr. KAISER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, what day did you find it, do you remember?

Mr. KAISER. I couldn't tell you. It was about a week or a week and a half, somewhere in there.

Mr. BALL. Now, this statement you gave to the Federal Bureau of Investigation on the 2d of December 1963, says you talked to an agent named Pinkston; do you remember that?

Mr. KAISER. Well, I got my boss and the FBI to go upstairs and I showed it to them.

Mr. BALL. When you saw the clipboard----

Mr. KAISER. I went downstairs and got my boss.

Mr. BALL. What is his name?

Mr. KAISER. William H. Shelley.

Mr. BALL. And then what happened?

Mr. KAISER. This FBI was standing there with me--he was standing there then and I told him I had a clipboard laying up there with the orders.

Mr. BALL. Do you think it would have been around December 2?

Mr. KAISER. I couldn't tell you, sir.

Mr. BALL. It was within a week after you went back to work, was it?

Mr. KAISER. To my best knowledge--yes, sir--somewhere in there.

Mr. BALL. How did you happen to find the clipboard?

Mr. KAISER. I was over there looking for the Catholic edition--teacher's edition.

Mr. BALL. Where did you see the clipboard?

Mr. KAISER. It was just laying there in the plain open--and just the plain open boxes--you see, we've got a pretty good space back there and I just noticed it laying over there.

Mr. BALL. Laying on the floor?

Mr. KAISER. Yes, it was laying on the floor.

Mr. BALL. It was on the floor?

Mr. KAISER. It was on the floor.

Mr. BALL. How close was it to the wall?

Mr. KAISER. It was about--oh--I would say, just guessing, about 5 or 6 inches, something like that.

Mr. BALL. From the wall and on the floor?

Mr. KAISER. Laying on the floor.

Mr. BALL. And were there any boxes between the wall and the clipboard?

Mr. KAISER. No, not between the wall and the clipboard--there wasn't.

Mr. BALL. Were there boxes between the stairway and the clipboard?

Mr. KAISER. No, you see, here's--let me see just a second--here's the stairs right here, and we went down this way and here's the stairs this way going up and here's the--and it was laying right in here by the cards--there are about four or five cards, I guess, running in front of it--just laying between the part you go down and the part you go up.

Mr. BALL. You mean laying between the stairway up and the stairway down?

Mr. KAISER. Yes, right there in the corner.

Mr. BALL. Did you examine that clipboard?

Mr. KAISER. I didn't touch it.

Mr. BALL. Did you later touch it?

Mr. KAISER. Yes, sir; they got me to look at it later on.

Mr. BALL. Did you see it had some orders on it?

Mr. KAISER. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And were the orders dated?

Mr. KAISER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What were they dated?

Mr. KAISER. I couldn't tell you, sir.

Mr. BALL. Take a look at this statement which you gave to Mr. Pinkston that day and read it to yourself and see if it refreshes your memory in any way?

Mr. KAISER. (Read statement referred to.)

Mr. BALL. Did you read that?

Mr. KAISER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Does that refresh your memory now as to the orders on the clipboard?

Mr. KAISER. I didn't know the date on the orders--I knew that there was some orders on there--I seen the orders on the clipboard.

Mr. BALL. Did you examine them to determine the date on them?

Mr. KAISER. Did I examine those orders? No, sir.

Mr. BALL. You didn't examine the orders?

Mr. KAISER. No, sir; I just went down and got my boss and then they took it down.

Mr. BALL. Did you make any notes of the orders?

Mr. KAISER. I didn't, sir.

Mr. BALL. Of either the names on the orders or the date of the orders?

Mr. KAISER. No, sir; now, my boss may have.

Mr. BALL. I think that's all. Did you fill the orders, then, yourself?

Mr. KAISER. No, sir; not them, I didn't.

Mr. BALL. You turned these over to your boss?

Mr. KAISER. You see, I went down and got them and they went down and got them and they handled them.

Mr. BALL. That's all, Mr. Kaiser, and thanks very much for coming up.

This will be written up and you can come down and read it over and sign it if you wish, or you can waive your signature, if you want to, and we can send it on without a signature.

Now, we will mark these pictures we've been talking about here in your deposition as Kaiser Exhibits Nos. A, B, C.

(Marked by reporter as Kaiser Exhibits Nos. A, B, C, for identification.)

Mr. KAISER. Anything else I can do, let me know.

Mr. BALL. Do you want to waive your signature to it?

Mr. KAISER. Yes, I'll waive it.

Mr. BALL. Fine. That's okay.

Mr. KAISER. All right.

TESTIMONY OF FRANKIE KAISER RESUMED

The testimony of Frankie Kaiser was taken at 3:40 p.m., on April 8, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BALL. Frankie, we have already taken your deposition and I just wanted to ask you a few more questions and you are still under oath.

Mr. KAISER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, Frankie, that clipboard you found describe it--what was it?

Mr. KAISER. It was made out of paper and tape and a little piece of pasteboard.

Mr. BALL. Who made it?

Mr. KAISER. I did.

Mr. BALL. When?

Mr. KAISER. Well, right after I started there--it had been a long time ago.

Mr. BALL. And how was it you weren't using it on this day?

Mr. KAISER. You see, when he first started there----

Mr. BALL. Who is "he"?

Mr. KAISER. Lee--when he first started to work there he got my clipboard and started using it.

Mr. BALL. Did you give it to him to use?

Mr. KAISER. No, he just picked it up and started using it and I just went and made me another one.

Mr. BALL. You recognized that clipboard when you saw it?

Mr. KAISER. Yes, because my name was all over it.

Mr. BALL. Your name was on it, too?

Mr. KAISER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You put your name "Frankie Kaiser" on it?

Mr. KAISER. You see, it don't do no good to get a clipboard around here--everybody is always running off with it.

Mr. BALL. That's the reason you put your name on it?

Mr. KAISER. He come up and got it and started using it and I just let him keep it and made me another one.

Mr. BALL. Now, here is a picture which is marked in a group of pictures as No. 36, but which I will mark as Exhibit A to your deposition.

(Instrument marked by the reporter as Kaiser Exhibit A, for identification.)

Mr. BALL. Does this show the place where the clipboard was found, or do you know?

Mr. KAISER. It wasn't found there--it was found on the floor.

Mr. BALL. Where on the floor?

Mr. KAISER. Behind these cartons--between there and the wall.

Mr. BALL. Behind which cartons?

Mr. KAISER. Right in here (indicating).

Mr. BALL. Which cartons--it was found behind--are the cartons in the picture--it wasn't found where it is circled there?

Mr. KAISER. It wasn't found where it circled--there--it was found on the floor.

Mr. BALL. Put a big "X" on the carton behind which it was found.

Mr. KAISER. I'll put it on this one--it was found between that and the wall. (Witness placed "X" on the pictures requested by Counsel Ball.)

Mr. BALL. You have marked an "X" on the carton--between that carton and the wall the clipboard was found.

Mr. KAISER. Yes, between these row of cartons right over there.

Mr. BALL. Now, did you later find clothing?

Mr. KAISER. I just found the coat there--I didn't even know it was his until somebody told me it was. I thought they were kidding.

Mr. BALL. This is Commission Exhibit 163--do you recognize that blue jacket?

Mr. KAISER. That's the one I found.

Mr. BALL. Where did you find it--tell me first.

Mr. KAISER. It was in the window sill.

Mr. BALL. In what room?

Mr. KAISER. In the domino room.

Mr. BALL. Now, I show you a picture, No. 17, this is marked--does this show the window?

Mr. KAISER. Right down in here.

Mr. BALL. There is a jacket showing in that window, is that where the jacket was found?

Mr. KAISER. Yes, sir; but it was laying behind this in the window.

Mr. BALL. It wasn't found in the position of the jacket shown in the picture?

Mr. KAISER. No; it sure wasn't.

Mr. BALL. But was it the same window?

Mr. KAISER. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And the window sill is shown there too?

Mr. KAISER. Yes; it is.

Mr. BALL. I show you a picture which is marked Exhibit 18, does this show the place where the jacket was found?

Mr. KAISER. Right over in here.

Mr. BALL. Where--put an "X" there--it's in the window sill?

Mr. KAISER. Right.

(Marked diagram with an "X".)

Mr. BALL. There is an Exhibit 17, which shows the corner of the domino room and the window and it is marked as Exhibit B and the picture marked No. 18, which shows the window sill, bearing an "X" placed there by the witness, and is marked as Exhibit "C". Will you initial that "C" please?

Mr. KAISER. (Initialed instrument as requested.)

Mr. BALL. That's "FK".

I believe we are through, now, Frankie, thank you very much.

Mr. KAISER. That's all right.

Mr. BALL. You'll waive this signature too?

Mr. KAISER. Yes.

(Instruments marked by the reporter as Kaiser Exhibits B and C, for identification.)

TESTIMONY OF CHARLES DOUGLAS GIVENS

The testimony of Charles Douglas Givens was taken at 9 a.m., on April 8, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BELIN. Would you stand and raise your right hand? Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give, will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. GIVENS. I do.

Mr. BELIN. What is your name, please?

Mr. GIVENS. Charles Douglas Givens.

Mr. BELIN. Where do you live, Mr. Givens?

Mr. GIVENS. I live at 4208 First Avenue.

Mr. BELIN. In Dallas?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. How old are you?

Mr. GIVENS. 38.

Mr. BELIN. Married?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Family?

Mr. GIVENS. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Where were you born, Mr. Givens?

Mr. GIVENS. Kemp, Tex.

Mr. BELIN. Have you lived in Texas most of your life?

Mr. GIVENS. All my life except I was in the Armed Forces during World War II, in the Navy.

Mr. BELIN. How long were you in the Navy?

Mr. GIVENS. About 2 years.

Mr. BELIN. Let me backtrack a little. Did you go to high school before you went in the Navy?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. How far did you get through school?

Mr. GIVENS. Twelfth grade.

Mr. BELIN. Did you get through the 12th?

Mr. GIVENS. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. You got up to the 12th grade?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. GIVENS. Well, I went to work.

Mr. BELIN. Doing what?

Mr. GIVENS. SMU.

Mr. BELIN. Pardon?

Mr. GIVENS. SMU.

Mr. BELIN. SMU?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do out there?

Mr. GIVENS. I worked in the kitchen.

Mr. BELIN. How long did you stay there?

Mr. GIVENS. Oh, about 2 years.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. GIVENS. I went in the service.

Mr. BELIN. You went in the service for a couple of years?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do with most of your time in the service?

Mr. GIVENS. I was in the Steward Mate Branch.

Mr. BELIN. Were you honorably discharged?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do when you got out of the service?

Mr. GIVENS. I went back to work.

Mr. BELIN. At SMU?

Mr. GIVENS. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Where?

Mr. GIVENS. I worked at Central Lumber Co.

Mr. BELIN. Doing what there?

Mr. GIVENS. I was a truck helper; helper on the truck.

Mr. BELIN. You were helper on a truck?

Mr. GIVENS. Delivering lumber; yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. How long did you do that?

Mr. GIVENS. Oh, about a year and a half, I guess.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. GIVENS. One time I got into a little difficulty. Got in a little trouble.

Mr. BELIN. You got in a little trouble?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. All right, you were not working for a while?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. About how long was that?

Mr. GIVENS. About 13 months.

Mr. BELIN. All right, then, what did you do?

Mr. GIVENS. Well, I came back and I worked for a construction company, and then after that I got this job down here at the depository.

Mr. BELIN. At the School Book Depository?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. How long have you worked there?

Mr. GIVENS. Off and on about 6 years.

Mr. BELIN. Was there any period of time that you haven't worked there?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What happened then?

Mr. GIVENS. Well, I just, you know, sometimes I had some days to layoff during the slack season, like it is now, and when it is rush season he calls you back.

Mr. BELIN. So it was just a question of being laid off during the slack season?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What do you do down there at the Texas Book Depository?

Mr. GIVENS. Well, I filled orders and stacked books, and you know, don't have any special job.

Mr. BELIN. On what floors do you generally work most of all?

Mr. GIVENS. Well, I work on the first floor most of the time, like we fill orders. We work out of the stock downstairs. We go upstairs. We have stock on three floors, fifth, sixth, and seventh.

Mr. BELIN. Well, do you fill orders for any particular publisher more than another, so that you might be on the fifth floor, or the sixth floor more than the seventh, or do you just spend as much time on any one of those top floors as you do on any other top floor?

Mr. GIVENS. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. Is that what you were doing on the 22d of November 1963, also?

Mr. GIVENS. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What were you doing on November 22?

Mr. GIVENS. We were fixing the floor, putting down some plywood on the floor.

Mr. BELIN. What floor would this have been on?

Mr. GIVENS. Sixth.

Mr. BELIN. What part of the sixth floor?

Mr. GIVENS. We were working on the west end.

Mr. BELIN. All right, do you remember what time you got to work that day?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes; I got to work around about a quarter to eight.

Mr. BELIN. Where did you go when you got to work?

Mr. GIVENS. I went in a little lunchroom that we have downstairs.

Mr. BELIN. Is that what you call the domino room?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. You carry your lunch with you?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. You put your lunch there?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you wear a jacket to work that day?

Mr. GIVENS. I wore a raincoat, I believe. It was misting that morning.

Mr. BELIN. Did you hang up your coat in that room, too?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you know Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. GIVENS. Well, I knew of him.

Mr. BELIN. Have you ever talked with him at all?

Mr. GIVENS. Well, I talked to him once in a while. I mean, just like about filling orders or something like that. Sometimes I check and he was filling orders and he make a mistake, and I call him and get the book right.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember any conversation you ever had with him? What you said and what he said?

Mr. GIVENS. Well, he was a fellow that kept pretty much to himself. He never had too much to say.

Mr. BELIN. Did he ever say anything to you, what a nice day, or about his family, or baseball, or anything?

Mr. GIVENS. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Ever talk to you about any politics?

Mr. GIVENS. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. When you talked to him about correcting an order, what did you say and what did he say?

Mr. GIVENS. Well, I just tell him he had the wrong book.

Mr. BELIN. What would he say?

Mr. GIVENS. He said, "Okay," and got the record.

Mr. BELIN. What did you call him, Lee or Oswald?

Mr. GIVENS. Called him Lee.

Mr. BELIN. What did he call you?

Mr. GIVENS. Well, he never called me anything. I never heard him call me anything.

Mr. BELIN. Did he make mistakes often?

Mr. GIVENS. Well, not too often.

Mr. BELIN. When you got to work on the morning of November 22, did you see him at all there or not?

Mr. GIVENS. 22d? That was on Friday, wasn't it?

Mr. BELIN. Friday; that is the day the President came by.

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, I saw him that day.

Mr. BELIN. Where did you see him first?

Mr. GIVENS. Well, I first saw him on the first floor.

Mr. BELIN. About what time was that?

Mr. GIVENS. Well, about 8:30.

Mr. BELIN. Now, let me ask you this. You got to work at a quarter to 8?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do between a quarter of 8 and 8:30? Where were you?

Mr. GIVENS. Well, I went upstairs. We went to work at 8 o'clock.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see him come into the domino room at all?

Mr. GIVENS. Not that morning, no, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BELIN. When did you leave the domino room to go up to the sixth floor?

Mr. GIVENS. 8 o'clock.

Mr. BELIN. At 8 o'clock?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. So you don't feel he came in the domino room before 8 o'clock?

Mr. GIVENS. No, sir; not that morning he didn't.

Mr. BELIN. How did you get up to the sixth floor?

Mr. GIVENS. On the elevator.

Mr. BELIN. The east or the west one? The west one is the one that would be nearest the railroad tracks, and the east one would be nearer the Houston Street.

Mr. GIVENS. We went up on the east one.

Mr. BELIN. Any particular reason why you took the east one rather than the west one?

Mr. GIVENS. Well, I don't know whether you call it a particular reason, but on the west, you have double gates on that.

Mr. BELIN. Was the west elevator on the first floor when you took the east elevator up?

Mr. GIVENS. It was that morning, yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. It was that morning around 8 o'clock?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Now, where did you see him at 8:30 o'clock first?

Mr. GIVENS. I came back down to use the rest room.

Mr. BELIN. Where was he?