Warren Commission (06 of 26): Hearings Vol. VI (of 15)
Part 43
TESTIMONY OF BOBBY W. HARGIS
The testimony of Bobby W. Hargis was taken at 3:20 p.m., on April 8, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Samuel A. Stern, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. STERN. Will you stand, please.
Do you solemnly swear that the evidence you are about to give shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. HARGIS. I do.
Mr. STERN. Would you state for the record your name and residence address.
Mr. HARGIS. Bobby W. Hargis, 1818 Adelaide, Dallas, Tex.
Mr. STERN. What is your occupation?
Mr. HARGIS. Police officer.
Mr. STERN. How long have you been a member of the Dallas Police Department?
Mr. HARGIS. Nine years and about 7 months.
Mr. STERN. And you are now a member of the motorcycle----
Mr. HARGIS. Division.
Mr. STERN. Division?
Mr. HARGIS. Yes.
Mr. STERN. Were you a part of the motorcade on November 22d?
Mr. HARGIS. Yes; I was.
Mr. STERN. In what position?
Mr. HARGIS. I was at the left-hand side of the Presidential limousine.
Mr. STERN. At what part of the President's car?
Mr. HARGIS. Well----
Mr. STERN. Front, or rear?
Mr. HARGIS. Oh. Rear.
Mr. STERN. Riding next to Mrs. Kennedy?
Mr. HARGIS. Right.
Mr. STERN. Will you describe what occurred or what you observed as the limousine turned into Elm Street?
Mr. HARGIS. Well, at the time that the limousine turned left on Elm Street I was staying pretty well right up with the car. Sometimes on Elm we couldn't get right up next to it on account of the crowd, but the crowd was thinning out down here at the triple underpass, so, I was next to Mrs. Kennedy when I heard the first shot, and at that time the President bent over, and Governor Connally turned around. He was sitting directly in front of him, and a real shocked and surprised expression on his face.
Mr. STERN. On Governor Connally's?
Mr. HARGIS. Yes; that is why I thought Governor Connally had been shot first, but it looked like the President was bending over to hear what he had to say, and I thought to myself then that Governor Connally, the Governor had been hit, and then as the President raised back up like that (indicating) the shot that killed him hit him. I don't know whether it was the second or the third shot. Everything happened so fast.
Mr. STERN. But, you cannot now recall more than two shots?
Mr. HARGIS. That is all that I can recall remembering. Of course, everything was moving so fast at the time that there could have been 30 more shots that I probably never would have noticed them.
Mr. STERN. Did something happen to you, personally in connection with the shot you have just described?
Mr. HARGIS. You mean about the blood hitting me?
Mr. STERN. Yes.
Mr. HARGIS. Yes; when President Kennedy straightened back up in the car the bullet him in the head, the one that killed him and it seemed like his head exploded, and I was splattered with blood and brain, and kind of a bloody water. It wasn't really blood. And at that time the Presidential car slowed down. I heard somebody say, "Get going," or "get going,"----
Mr. STERN. Someone inside----
Mr. HARGIS. I don't know whether it was the Secret Service car, and I remembered seeing Officer Chaney. Chaney put his motor in first gear and accelerated up to the front to tell them to get everything out of the way, that he was coming through, and that is when the Presidential limousine shot off, and I stopped and got off my motorcycle and ran to the right-hand side of the street, behind the light pole.
Mr. STERN. Just a minute. Do you recall your impression at the time regarding the source of the shots?
Mr. HARGIS. Well, at the time it sounded like the shots were right next to me. There wasn't any way in the world I could tell where they were coming from, but at the time there was something in my head that said that they probably could have been coming from the railroad overpass, because I thought since I had got splattered, with blood--I was just a little back and left of--just a little bit back and left of Mrs. Kennedy, but I didn't know. I had a feeling that it might have been from the Texas Book Depository, and these two places was the primary place that could have been shot from.
Mr. STERN. You were clear that the sounds were sounds of shots?
Mr. HARGIS. Yes, sir; I knew they were shots.
Mr. STERN. All right, what did you do then? You say you parked your motorcycle?
Mr. HARGIS. Yes, uh-huh----
Mr. STERN. Where?
Mr. HARGIS. It was to the left-hand side of the street from--south side of Elm Street.
Mr. STERN. And then what did you do?
Mr. HARGIS. I ran across the street looking over towards the railroad overpass and I remembered seeing people scattering and running and then I looked----
Mr. STERN. People on the overpass?
Mr. HARGIS. Yes; people that were there to see the President I guess. They were taking pictures and things. It was kind of a confused crowd. I don't know whether they were trying to hide or see what was happening or what--and then I looked over to the Texas School Book Depository Building, and no one that was standing at the base of the building was--seemed to be looking up at the building or anything like they knew where the shots were coming from, so----
Mr. STERN. How about the people on the incline on the north side of Elm Street? Do you recall their behavior?
Mr. HARGIS. Yes; I remember a man holding a child. Fell to the ground and covered his child with his body, and people running everywhere, trying to get out of there, I guess, and they were about as confused as to where the shots were coming from as everyone else was.
Mr. STERN. And did you run up the incline on your side of Elm Street?
Mr. HARGIS. Yes, sir; I ran to the light post, and I ran up to this kind of a little wall, brick wall up there to see if I could get a better look on the bridge, and, of course, I was looking all around that place by that time. I knew it couldn't have come from the county courthouse because that place was swarming with deputy sheriffs over there.
Mr. STERN. Did you get behind the picket fence that runs from the overpass to the concrete wall?
Mr. HARGIS. No.
Mr. STERN. On the north side of Elm Street?
Mr. HARGIS. No, no; I don't remember any picket fence.
Mr. STERN. Did you observe anything then on the overpass, or on the incline, or around the Depository? Anything out of the ordinary besides people running?
Mr. HARGIS. No; I didn't. That is what got me.
Mr. STERN. So, at that point you were still uncertain as to the direction of the shots?
Mr. HARGIS. Yes, uh-huh.
Mr. STERN. Then, what did you do?
Mr. HARGIS. Well, then, I thought since I had looked over at the Texas Book Depository and some people looking out of the windows up there, didn't seem like they knew what was going on, but none of them were looking towards, or near anywhere the shots had been fired from. At the time I didn't know, but about the only activity I could see was on the bridge, on the railroad bridge so----
Mr. STERN. What sort of activity was that?
Mr. HARGIS. Well, the people that were up there were just trying to get a better look at what was happening and was in a haze and running, or in a confused fashion, and I thought maybe some of them had seen who did the shooting and the rifle.
Mr. STERN. Then what did you do?
Mr. HARGIS. Then I got back on my motorcycle, which was still running, and rode underneath the first underpass to look on the opposite side in order to see if I could see anyone running away from the scene, and since I didn't see anyone coming from that direction I rode under the second underpass, which is Stemmons Expressway and went up around to see if I could see anyone coming from across Stemmons and back that way, and I couldn't see anything that was of a suspicious nature, so, I came back to the Texas School Book Depository. At that time it seemed like the activity was centered around the Texas School Book Depository, so, that is when I heard someone say, one of the sergeants or lieutenants, I don't know, "Don't let anyone out of the Texas School Book Depository," and so, I went to a gap that had not been filled, which was at the southwest corner.
Mr. STERN. And you remained there until you were relieved?
Mr. HARGIS. Yes.
Mr. STERN. Anything else that you haven't told us that you think is relevant to our inquiry?
Mr. HARGIS. No; I don't believe so.
Mr. STERN. Thank you very much, Mr. Hargis.
The reporter will transcribe your testimony and have it available for you to read and sign if you care to. Otherwise, you may waive your right to review and sign the testimony and she will mail it direct to the Commission, whichever you prefer. It is entirely your option.
Mr. HARGIS. Well; it really doesn't make any difference. It is more or less what you all think is best.
Mr. STERN. It's entirely up to you.
Mr. HARGIS. Well, how long will it be until she fixes it up?
Mr. STERN. Well, off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. STERN. On the record.
Mr. HARGIS. All right. Well, just go ahead and I will just let you go ahead and send it in without the signature.
Mr. STERN. Thank you very much, Mr. Hargis.
TESTIMONY OF CLYDE A. HAYGOOD
Testimony of Clyde A. Haygood was taken at 9:15 a.m., on April 9, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. BELIN. Would you stand and raise your right hand.
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. HAYGOOD. I do.
Mr. BELIN. Would you please state your name.
Mr. HAYGOOD. Clyde A. Haygood.
Mr. BELIN. What is your occupation?
Mr. HAYGOOD. Dallas police officer, solo motorcycle section.
Mr. BELIN. How old are you?
Mr. HAYGOOD. Thirty-two.
Mr. BELIN. Born in Texas?
Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Go to school here in Texas?
Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. How far did you get through school?
Mr. HAYGOOD. Finished high school.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?
Mr. HAYGOOD. Went into the service.
Mr. BELIN. What branch?
Mr. HAYGOOD. Air Force.
Mr. BELIN. How long?
Mr. HAYGOOD. Four years to the day.
Mr. BELIN. What did you do in the Air Force, generally?
Mr. HAYGOOD. Ground crew chief, flight engineer.
Mr. BELIN. Do you have an honorable discharge?
Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got out of the Air Force?
Mr. HAYGOOD. Went to work for the Dallas Police Department.
Mr. BELIN. What year was that?
Mr. HAYGOOD. 1955.
Mr. BELIN. You have been with them ever since?
Mr. HAYGOOD. Other than 11 months in which I left the department.
Mr. BELIN. What did you do in that 11 months?
Mr. HAYGOOD. Went into a business of my own.
Mr. BELIN. Then went back to the department?
Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Were you on duty on November 22, 1963?
Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. What was your assignment that day?
Mr. HAYGOOD. Solo motorcycle officer on escort of the Presidential motorcade.
Mr. BELIN. You started with the motorcade at Love Field?
Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Went through town with him?
Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Where were you riding as you went through town?
Mr. HAYGOOD. Riding to the right rear of the Presidential car.
Mr. BELIN. How many cars back, if you remember?
Mr. HAYGOOD. Well, it varied. It would be hard to say as to how many cars back.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember whether Officer M. L. Baker was riding?
Mr. HAYGOOD. He was riding in front of me.
Mr. BELIN. So you would be riding several cars back, generally, from the President's car, is that correct?
Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Did you hear any shots at all?
Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Where were you when you heard the shots?
Mr. HAYGOOD. I was on Main Street just approaching Houston Street.
Mr. BELIN. How many shots did you hear?
Mr. HAYGOOD. Three.
Mr. BELIN. Were the three spaced equally distant?
Mr. HAYGOOD. No.
Mr. BELIN. Go ahead.
Mr. HAYGOOD. No.
Mr. BELIN. Was one more close than the other one?
Mr. HAYGOOD. The last two were closer than the first. In other words, it was the first, and then a pause, and then the other two were real close.
Mr. BELIN. What did you do after you heard the sounds?
Mr. HAYGOOD. I made the shift down to lower gear and went on to the scene of the shooting.
Mr. BELIN. What do you mean by the scene of the shooting?
Mr. HAYGOOD. There on Main Street.
Mr. BELIN. On Main Street?
Mr. HAYGOOD. I am sorry, on Elm Street.
Mr. BELIN. What position of Elm Street?
Mr. HAYGOOD. Be just west of Houston Street.
Mr. BELIN. By the scene of the shooting, do you mean the place where you believed the President's car was when the bullets struck?
Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got there?
Mr. HAYGOOD. When I first got to the location there, I was still on Houston Street, and in the process of making a left turn onto Elm Street I could see all these people laying on the ground there on Elm. Some of them were pointing back up to the railroad yard, and a couple of people were headed back up that way, and I immediately tried to jump the north curb there in the 400 block, which was too high for me to get over.
Mr. BELIN. You mean with your motorcycle?
Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Mr. HAYGOOD. And I left my motor on the street and ran to the railroad yard.
Mr. BELIN. Now when you ran to the railroad yard, would that be north or south of Elm?
Mr. HAYGOOD. The railroad yard would be located at the--it consist of going over Elm Street and back north of Elm Street.
Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got there?
Mr. HAYGOOD. Well, there was nothing. There was quite a few people in the area, spectators, and at that time I went back to my motorcycle--it was on the street--to the radio.
Mr. BELIN. Did you see any people running away from there?
Mr. HAYGOOD. No. They was all going to it.
Mr. BELIN. Did you talk to any people over there or not?
Mr. HAYGOOD. In the railroad yard, I talked to one of the people I presumed to be a railroad detective that was in the yard.
Mr. BELIN. Had he been in the yard before or not?
Mr. HAYGOOD. No. He was just coming into the area after I was.
Mr. BELIN. He was coming into the area after the shooting?
Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Did he say anything to you, that you remember?
Mr. HAYGOOD. Nothing that I remember.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?
Mr. HAYGOOD. I went back to my motorcycle, which was sitting on Elm Street.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?
Mr. HAYGOOD. At that time some people came up and started talking to me as to the shooting.
Mr. BELIN. What did they say?
Mr. HAYGOOD. One stated that he had seen the President when the first shot was fired, and that he definitely was hit.
Mr. BELIN. Did he say where the shot came from?
Mr. HAYGOOD. And I asked him about where the shots came from, and he stated that he didn't know, that he was looking at him when the first shot was fired, and that he slumped. And when the second shot was fired, he went completely out of sight.
Mr. BELIN. You talked to any other witnesses there?
Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes. There was another one came up who was located, at the time he stated, on the south side of Elm Street back toward the triple underpass. Back, well, it would be north of the underpass there, and said he had gotten hit by a piece of concrete or something, and he did have a slight cut on his right cheek, upper portion of his cheek just to the right of his nose.
Mr. BELIN. Would he have been to the front or to the back of the Presidential car at the time of the shot?
Mr. HAYGOOD. I don't know what you mean to the front or the back.
Mr. BELIN. When he was standing, was he to the west or to the east of the President's car at the time of the shooting?
Mr. HAYGOOD. He would be to the south of it and then west.
Mr. BELIN. Southwest of it?
Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Talk to anyone else?
Mr. HAYGOOD. And at that time, approximately, well, I was talking to him at the time this other man came up and told me that he didn't know what it was about, but he was quite sure the shot had come from this building there which he pointed out to be the Texas School Book Depository Building.
Mr. BELIN. Did he say why?
Mr. HAYGOOD. He said when the first shot was fired he glanced back and there was something in the building, he couldn't determine what it was, but it was just something there that he couldn't explain, but he was definite that the shots did come from there.
And after talking to him and the man that was on the other side that complained he was hit by a piece of concrete from the ricochet at that time, I called the dispatcher and asked for squads to cover the Texas School Book Depository Building off.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what your number was that day?
Mr. HAYGOOD. Beg your pardon?
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what number you used for calling the dispatcher that day?
Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes. My original call number is 142.
Mr. BELIN. I have here a Sawyer Deposition Exhibit A, which appears to be a transcript of a police radio log, and I notice that at 12:35 p.m., there is a call from 142 to 531. 531 is your station headquarters?
Mr. HAYGOOD. Right.
Mr. BELIN. Do you want to read what you said?
Mr. HAYGOOD. "I talked to a guy at the scene who says the shots were fired from the Texas School Book Depository Building with the Hertz Rent A Car sign on top."
Mr. BELIN. Is that what you said?
Mr. HAYGOOD. Approximately. I don't recall the exact words.
Mr. BELIN. There was a response to you. What does it say there?
Mr. HAYGOOD. "Get his name, address, phone number and all information you can."
Mr. BELIN. Did you do that?
Mr. HAYGOOD. No, I never.
Mr. BELIN. What happened?
Mr. HAYGOOD. Because I was told to go to the School Book Depository Building. I instructed the three different people to come to the front of the School Book Depository Building and remain there until they were talked to.
Mr. BELIN. You took these people that you had with you?
Mr. HAYGOOD. I did not take them, no.
Mr. BELIN. You instructed them to go there?
Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. In front of the School Book Depository?
Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. And remain there until someone talked to them?
Mr. HAYGOOD. Right.
Mr. BELIN. You don't know the names of these people?
Mr. HAYGOOD. No, I don't.
Mr. BELIN. Do you know who talked to them at all?
Mr. HAYGOOD. No; I don't.
Mr. BELIN. What did you do then?
Mr. HAYGOOD. At that time I went to the School Building at the rear location of it, which would be----
Mr. BELIN. To the back door?
Mr. HAYGOOD. North side of it, yes.
Mr. BELIN. Where that door leads out there to the dock?
Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes; on the northeast corner there.
Mr. BELIN. What did you do then?
Mr. HAYGOOD. At that time I talked to the colored male that was standing at the door and asked him how long he had been there, and he said he had been there some 5 minutes or so.
And I asked him if anyone had came out that door, and he said that they had not.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember his name?
Mr. HAYGOOD. No; I don't.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?
Mr. HAYGOOD. At that time, it was people, squads and all arriving at the scene, and I went on into the building, which they stayed outside, and helped them search the building.
Mr. BELIN. Anything else?
Mr. HAYGOOD. That is about all.
Mr. BELIN. Did you search the building on the sixth floor or not?
Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Were you there when they found the rifle?
Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Were you there when they found the shells?
Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Where were you when the shells were found?
Mr. HAYGOOD. I was on the sixth floor when the shells were found. I was still on the sixth when they found the rifle--on the fifth.
Mr. BELIN. On the fifth?
Mr. HAYGOOD. Sixth floor, rather, I am sorry.
Mr. BELIN. Where on the sixth floor were you when the shells were found?
Mr. HAYGOOD. I don't recall just exactly where it was at. It was on the floor there, though. It was just a big open floor.
Mr. BELIN. Do you mean they were somewhere on that open floor?
Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Did you hear someone say they have shells, something like that?
Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember who that was?
Mr. HAYGOOD. No; I don't.
Mr. BELIN. What did you do then?
Mr. HAYGOOD. Went up to another location there.
Mr. BELIN. You saw some shells there?
Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Where did you see them?
Mr. HAYGOOD. They were there under the window.
Mr. BELIN. Which window?
Mr. HAYGOOD. On the southeast corner.
Mr. BELIN. South side or east side?
Mr. HAYGOOD. On the southeast corner facing south.
Mr. BELIN. See any paper bags or anything around there?
Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes; there was a lunch bag there. You could call it a lunch bag.
Mr. BELIN. Where was that?
Mr. HAYGOOD. There at the same location where the shells were.
Mr. BELIN. Was there a coke bottle or anything with it?
Mr. HAYGOOD. Dr. Pepper bottle.
Mr. BELIN. See any long bags which would be a foot or foot and a half or more long?
Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes; just a plain brown paper bag with tape in the corner.
Mr. BELIN. What, tape?
Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes; there was just brown paper tape on it. Just a brown paper bag with paper tape. It had been taped up.
Mr. BELIN. How long was that, if you can remember?
Mr. HAYGOOD. The exact length, I couldn't say. It was approximately rifle length.
Mr. BELIN. Would this have been right under the window, or to the east or west of the window, if you remember?
Mr. HAYGOOD. As I remember, it was directly in the corner, in the southeast corner.
Mr. BELIN. Well, as you remember, was the window directly in the southeast corner, or was the window a little bit to the west of that corner, if you remember?
Mr. HAYGOOD. The window at that location faces south, on the southeast corner.
Mr. BELIN. About how far from the east corner of the building is the window?
Mr. HAYGOOD. Well, it is just approximately like that, and then the corner here. Like the window would be there, and then it would be a corner.
Mr. BELIN. As far as the window in this room from that corner [indicating in room]?
Mr. HAYGOOD. I wouldn't even attempt to say the approximate distance of the window from the corner. I don't know.
Mr. BELIN. Well, if you don't know, that is what I want to find out.
Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Was the bag right under the window?
Mr. HAYGOOD. It was in the corner.
Mr. BELIN. Not under the window?
Mr. HAYGOOD. No; it was in the corner of the building, the southeast corner.
Mr. BELIN. Anything else you noticed up there?
Mr. HAYGOOD. That is all.
Mr. BELIN. Now, where were you when you saw the--when you heard a rifle had been found?
Mr. HAYGOOD. On the floor there, best as I can remember, and I went to that same location as the other one, just like I stated on the other one where the shells was found.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember where that rifle was found, roughly, or not?
Mr. HAYGOOD. It was in a row of books back on the opposite corner. Be on the west side of the building, back to the northwest corner.
Mr. BELIN. All right, anything else you remember while you were there?
Mr. HAYGOOD. No.
Mr. BELIN. What did you do after that, after the rifle was found?
Mr. HAYGOOD. Well, it still wasn't determined whether the assailant wasn't still in the building even at that time, even after the rifle was found, and the search was continued in the building for a while after that.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?
Mr. HAYGOOD. At that time after that I went to the street, went downstairs to the street.
Mr. BELIN. Did you participate in any other investigation that day?
Mr. HAYGOOD. No.
Mr. BELIN. What about on Saturday?