Part 42

Mr. BOWERS. He was holding something up to his mouth with one hand and he was driving with the other, and gave that appearance. He was very close to the tower. I could see him as he proceeded around the area.

Mr. BALL. What kind of license did that have?

Mr. BOWERS. Had a Texas license.

Mr. BALL. What did it do as it came into the area, from what street?

Mr. BOWERS. Came in from the extension of Elm Street in front of the School Depository.

Mr. BALL. Did you see it leave?

Mr. BOWERS. Yes; after 3 or 4 minutes cruising around the area it departed the same way. He did probe a little further into the area than the first car.

Mr. BALL. Did you see another car?

Mr. BOWERS. Third car, which entered the area, which was some seven or nine minutes before the shooting, I believe was a 1961 or 1962 Chevrolet, four-door Impala, white, showed signs of being on the road. It was muddy up to the windows, bore a similar out-of-state license to the first car I observed, occupied also by one white male.

Mr. BALL. What did it do?

Mr. BOWERS. He spent a little more time in the area. He tried--he circled the area and probed one spot right at the tower in an attempt to get and was forced to back out some considerable distance, and slowly cruised down back towards the front of the School Depository Building.

Mr. BALL. Then did he leave?

Mr. BOWERS. The last I saw of him he was pausing just about in--just above the assassination site.

Mr. BALL. Did the car park, or continue on or did you notice?

Mr. BOWERS. Whether it continued on at that very moment or whether it pulled up only a short distance, I couldn't tell. I was busy.

Mr. BALL. How long was this before the President's car passed there?

Mr. BOWERS. This last car? About 8 minutes.

Mr. BALL. Were you in a position where you could see the corner of Elm and Houston from the tower?

Mr. BOWERS. No; I could not see the corner of Elm and Houston. I could see the corner of Main and Houston as they came down and turned on, then I couldn't see it for about half a block, and after they passed the corner of Elm and Houston the car came in sight again.

Mr. BALL. You saw the President's car coming out the Houston Street from Main, did you?

Mr. BOWERS. Yes; I saw that.

Mr. BALL. Then you lost sight of it?

Mr. BOWERS. Right. For a moment.

Mr. BALL. Then you saw it again where?

Mr. BOWERS. It came in sight after it had turned the corner of Elm and Houston.

Mr. BALL. Did you hear anything?

Mr. BOWERS. I heard three shots. One, then a slight pause, then two very close together. Also reverberation from the shots.

Mr. BALL. And were you able to form an opinion as to the source of the sound or what direction it came from, I mean?

Mr. BOWERS. The sounds came either from up against the School Depository Building or near the mouth of the triple underpass.

Mr. BALL. Were you able to tell which?

Mr. BOWERS. No; I could not.

Mr. BALL. Well, now, had you had any experience before being in the tower as to sounds coming from those various places?

Mr. BOWERS. Yes; I had worked this same tower for some 10 or 12 years, and was there during the time they were renovating the School Depository Building, and had noticed at that time the similarity of sounds occurring in either of those two locations.

Mr. BALL. Can you tell me now whether or not it came, the sounds you heard, the three shots came from the direction of the Depository Building or the triple underpass?

Mr. BOWERS. No; I could not.

Mr. BALL. From your experience there, previous experience there in hearing sounds that originated at the Texas School Book Depository Building, did you notice that sometimes those sounds seem to come from the triple underpass? Is that what you told me a moment ago?

Mr. BOWERS. There is a similarity of sound, because there is a reverberation which takes place from either location.

Mr. BALL. Had you heard sounds originating near the triple underpass before?

Mr. BOWERS. Yes; quite often.

Because trucks backfire and various occurrences.

Mr. BALL. And you had heard noises originating from the Texas School Depository when they were building there?

Mr. BOWERS. They were renovating. I--did carpenter work as well as sandblasted the outside of the building.

Mr. BALL. Now, were there any people standing on the high side--high ground between your tower and where Elm Street goes down under the underpass toward the mouth of the underpass?

Mr. BOWERS. Directly in line, towards the mouth of the underpass, there were two men. One man, middle-aged, or slightly older, fairly heavy-set, in a white shirt, fairly dark trousers. Another younger man, about midtwenties, in either a plaid shirt or plaid coat or jacket.

Mr. BALL. Were they standing together or standing separately?

Mr. BOWERS. They were standing within 10 or 15 feet of each other, and gave no appearance of being together, as far as I knew.

Mr. BALL. In what direction were they facing?

Mr. BOWERS. They were facing and looking up towards Main and Houston, and following the caravan as it came down.

Mr. BALL. Did you see anyone standing on the triple underpass?

Mr. BOWERS. On the triple underpass, there were two policemen. One facing each direction, both east and west. There was one railroad employee, a signal man there with the Union Terminal Co., and two welders that worked for the Fort Worth Welding firm, and there was also a laborer's assistant furnished by the railroad to these welders.

Mr. BALL. You saw those before the President came by, you saw those people?

Mr. BOWERS. Yes; they were there before and after.

Mr. BALL. And were they standing on the triple underpass?

Mr. BOWERS. Yes; they were standing on top of it facing towards Houston Street, all except, of course, the one policeman on the west side.

Mr. BALL. Did you see any other people up on this high ground?

Mr. BOWERS. There were one or two people in the area. Not in this same vicinity. One of them was a parking lot attendant that operates a parking lot there. One or two. Each had uniforms similar to those custodians at the courthouse. But they were some distance back, just a slight distance back.

Mr. BALL. When you heard the sound, which way were you looking?

Mr. BOWERS. At the moment I heard the sound, I was looking directly towards the area--at the moment of the first shot, as close as my recollection serves, the car was out of sight behind this decorative masonry wall in the area.

Mr. BALL. And when you heard the second and third shot, could you see the car?

Mr. BOWERS. No; at the moment of the shots, I could--I do not think that it was in sight. It came in sight immediately following the last shot.

Mr. BALL. Did you see any activity in this high ground above Elm after the shot?

Mr. BOWERS. At the time of the shooting there seemed to be some commotion, and immediately following there was a motorcycle policeman who shot nearly all of the way to the top of the incline.

Mr. BALL. On his motorcycle?

Mr. BOWERS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did he come by way of Elm Street?

Mr. BOWERS. He was part of the motorcade and had left it for some reason, which I did not know.

Mr. BALL. He came up----

Mr. BOWERS. He came almost to the top and I believe abandoned his motorcycle for a moment and then got on it and proceeded, I don't know.

Mr. BALL. How did he get up?

Mr. BOWERS. He just shot up over the curb and up.

Mr. BALL. He didn't come then by way of Elm, which dead ends there?

Mr. BOWERS. No; he left the motorcade and came up the incline on the motorcycle.

Mr. BALL. Was his motorcycle directed toward any particular people?

Mr. BOWERS. He came up into this area where there are some trees, and where I had described the two men were in the general vicinity of this.

Mr. BALL. Were the two men there at the time?

Mr. BOWERS. I--as far as I know, one of them was. The other I could not say.

The darker dressed man was too hard to distinguish from the trees. The one in the white shirt, yes; I think he was.

Mr. BALL. When you said there was a commotion, what do you mean by that? What did it look like to you when you were looking at the commotion?

Mr. BOWERS. I just am unable to describe rather than it was something out of the ordinary, a sort of milling around, but something occurred in this particular spot which was out of the ordinary, which attracted my eye for some reason, which I could not identify.

Mr. BALL. You couldn't describe it?

Mr. BOWERS. Nothing that I could pinpoint as having happened that----

Mr. BALL. Afterwards did a good many people come up there on this high ground at the tower?

Mr. BOWERS. A large number of people came, more than one direction. One group converged from the corner of Elm and Houston, and came down the extension of Elm and came into the high ground, and another line--another large group went across the triangular area between Houston and Elm and then across Elm and then up the incline. Some of them all the way up.

Many of them did, as well as, of course, between 50 and a hundred policemen within a maximum of 5 minutes.

Mr. BALL. In this area around your tower?

Mr. BOWERS. That's right. Sealed off the area, and I held off the trains until they could be examined, and there was some transients taken on at least one train.

Mr. BALL. I believe you have talked this over with me before your deposition was taken, haven't we?

Mr. BOWERS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Is there anything that you told me that I haven't asked you about that you think of?

Mr. BOWERS. Nothing that I can recall.

Mr. BALL. You have told me all that you know about this, haven't you?

Mr. BOWERS. Yes; I believe that I have related everything which I have told the city police, and also told to the FBI.

Mr. BALL. And everything you told me before we started taking the deposition?

Mr. BOWERS. To my knowledge I can remember nothing else.

Mr. BALL. Now, this will be reduced to writing, and you can sign it, look it over and sign it, or waive your signature if you wish.

What do you wish?

Mr. BOWERS. I have no reason to sign it unless you want me to.

Mr. BALL. Would you just as leave waive the signature?

Mr. BOWERS. Fine.

Mr. BALL. Then we thank you very much.

TESTIMONY OF B. J. MARTIN

The testimony of B. J. Martin was taken at 10:10 a.m., on April 3, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BALL. Will you stand up, please, and be sworn?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before this Commission shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. MARTIN. I do.

Mr. BALL. Will you state you name, please?

Mr. MARTIN. B. J. Martin.

Mr. BALL. And what is your residence address?

Mr. MARTIN. 11830 Flamingo Lane, Dallas.

Mr. BALL. What is your occupation?

Mr. MARTIN. I am a police officer.

Mr. BALL. With the Dallas Police Department?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. How long have you been with the Police Department?

Mr. MARTIN. It will be 11 years in June.

Mr. BALL. Tell me something about yourself, when you were born and where you were raised and where you went to school?

Mr. MARTIN. I was born in Maud, Okla., Seminole County--went to school--high school at Maud, Okla., and entered the Navy in 1948, from there and was discharged in 1952 and lived at Compton, Okla., for approximately a year, and then returned to Dallas and was employed in the Police Department in June 1953.

Mr. BALL. And were you employed as a motorcycle officer at that time?

Mr. MARTIN. No, sir; I was employed as an apprentice policeman and worked in the radio patrol division.

Mr. BALL. You are not a motorcycleman?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. How long have you been a motorcycle officer?

Mr. MARTIN. Let's see, 8 years in January.

Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1963, did you have some special assignment?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir; I was assigned to the motorcade of President Kennedy.

Mr. BALL. And you went out to Love Field, did you?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir; we made detail about 7 o'clock that morning and was assigned, I don't recall now just what time--it was about 30 minutes before his plane was to arrive at Love Field.

Mr. BALL. And in the motorcade what was your position?

Mr. MARTIN. I was assigned to ride on the left-hand rear side of President Kennedy.

Mr. BALL. And were you riding alone there, or was another officer riding with you?

Mr. MARTIN. There was another officer riding with me, B. W. Hargis.

Mr. BALL. He was parallel to you on another motorcycle?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir; we were----

Mr. BALL. Two motorcycles abreast?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. As you turned onto Houston from Main, can you tell me about the speed of the President's car?

Mr. MARTIN. My estimation would be 4 to 5 miles an hour when we made the turn onto Elm Street from Houston.

Mr. BALL. From Houston?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Now, did you make the turn from Main to Houston about the same speed?

Mr. MARTIN. No, sir; we were going a little faster, I would say--between probably 10 and 15 miles an hour.

Mr. BALL. And then the block between Main and Elm, did the motorcade slow down?

Mr. MARTIN. It slowed down just before we made the turn onto Elm Street.

Mr. BALL. Let's take the President's car--what do you think the speed of the President's car was as you made that turn from Houston onto Elm?

Mr. MARTIN. I believe the speed was about 4 or 5 miles an hour.

Mr. BALL. What was your speed?

Mr. MARTIN. Approximately the same--maybe a mile slower.

Mr. BALL. Were you able to maintain your position on the two-wheeler motorcycle?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir; I believe I did.

Mr. BALL. What is the minimum speed at which you can maintain the position of that motorcycle?

Mr. MARTIN. About 2 miles per hour, I would imagine.

Mr. BALL. Did the President's car pick up any speed from the corner of Houston and Elm--we'll say half way down that hill?

Mr. MARTIN. No, sir; I don't recall it picking up any speed in there.

Mr. BALL. They were going fairly slow?

Mr. MARTIN. It may have picked up, gradually picked up, but not enough that I could notice.

Mr. BALL. Did you hear any unusual noise?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir; I heard a shot, or what I thought at the time to be a shot.

Mr. BALL. What was the position of your motorcycle at that time with reference to the President's car?

Mr. MARTIN. Just to the rear of his car--on the left rear of his car.

Mr. BALL. How far from the car, I'll say, to the left of the car and then how far to the rear--so I can get some idea of your position?

Mr. MARTIN. I would say that my motor was 5-foot to the left and approximately 6- to 8-foot to the rear.

Mr. BALL. Of the President's car?

Mr. MARTIN. Of the President's car.

Mr. BALL. Were you anywhere near the front end of the Secret Service car?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. The car the Secret Service men were in?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes; we were alongside the front end of their car, because one of the agents got off of the car after the first shot. The best I can remember--I was fairly close to him--he was the person riding on the fender of the car and the first agent from the front of the car, and I was fairly close to him when he jumped off of the car.

Mr. BALL. Now, where was the motorcycle driven by Mr. Hargis, with reference to your right or to your left?

Mr. MARTIN. He was to my right when we made the turn on Houston Street.

Mr. BALL. At the time you heard this shot, where was he?

Mr. MARTIN. I presume he was still to my right. I don't recall seeing him after the shots.

Mr. BALL. He would have been closer to the President's car than you would have?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir--he would have been--I would say 3- or 4-foot closer than I was.

Mr. BALL. You traveled along the street about 3 or 4 feet apart from each other?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir--something like that.

Mr. BALL. When you heard the first shot, did you have any idea of the direction which the shot was coming from?

Mr. MARTIN. No, sir; I didn't. I couldn't tell from which direction it was coming--any of the shots.

Mr. BALL. Did you look?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir; I looked back to my right.

Mr. BALL. After which shot?

Mr. MARTIN. After the first shot.

Mr. BALL. You looked to your right?

Mr. MARTIN. I looked back to my right.

Mr. BALL. What did you look at?

Mr. MARTIN. At the building on the right there.

Mr. BALL. Is that the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes; it is.

Mr. BALL. Did you see anything?

Mr. MARTIN. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. As you turned to the right, did you turn your motorcycle also, or did you turn your body?

Mr. MARTIN. I believe I just turned my body. I don't believe I ever turned my motor. I believe I kept my motor headed down Elm Street--west on Elm.

Mr. BALL. Did you take any notice of the President after the first shot?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir; I looked at the President after I heard the shot and he was leaning forward--I could see the left side of his face. At the time he had no expression on his face.

Mr. BALL. Then, did you hear some more shots?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. How many?

Mr. MARTIN. Two more shots.

Mr. BALL. Did you see anything when you looked at the School Depository Building?

Mr. MARTIN. No, sir--just the building.

Mr. BALL. And were you able to tell--to determine or did you have any opinion, as to the direction from which the shots were coming--the last two shots--from which direction they came?

Mr. MARTIN. No, sir; you couldn't tell just where they were coming from.

Mr. BALL. Was there any breeze that day?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes; there was.

Mr. BALL. From what direction?

Mr. MARTIN. I believe it was blowing out of the southwest at that particular location. It seemed like we were going to turn into the wind as we turned off of Houston onto Elm.

Mr. BALL. The wind was in your face?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes; the best I can recall.

Mr. BALL. Now, afterward, did the motorcade pick up speed then?

Mr. MARTIN. After we turned onto Houston?

Mr. BALL. No; after the shots?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes--after the shots we picked up speed.

Mr. BALL. Did you go on to Parkland?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir; I did. I rode just part of the time alongside of the President's car. At times we were forced to the rear because of the pedestrians standing out on Stemmons and there just wasn't enough room to ride in there.

Mr. BALL. Could you see the President?

Mr. MARTIN. No, sir; I couldn't see him--immediately after the first shot I saw him and after that I couldn't see him.

Mr. BALL. And did you see the Governor at all?

Mr. MARTIN. No, sir. I didn't pay any attention to the Governor.

Mr. BALL. Now, when you got to Parkland Hospital, what did you do?

Mr. MARTIN. We pulled into the emergency entrance to Parkland Hospital. The traffic had already begun to stack up and the officers ahead of the motorcade went on down into the exit and I stopped off at the first turn into the exit about 50 or 60 yards from the entrance to the emergency and began to cut traffic so they wouldn't block the roadway down into the emergency and then we had to park cars--just a lot of people got out of their cars and it was all blocked up and we had to park cars and just generally work traffic around there.

Mr. BALL. You had a white helmet on?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did you notice any stains on your helmet?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir; during the process of working traffic there, I noticed that there were blood stains on the windshield on my motor and then I pulled off my helmet and I noticed there were blood stains on the left side of my helmet.

Mr. BALL. To give a more accurate description of the left side, could you tell us about where it started with reference to the forehead?

Mr. MARTIN. It was just to the left--of what would be the center of my forehead--approximately halfway, about a quarter of the helmet had spots of blood on it.

Mr. BALL. And were there any other spots of any other material on the helmet there besides blood?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir; there was other matter that looked like pieces of flesh.

Mr. BALL. What about your uniform?

Mr. MARTIN. There was blood and matter on my left shoulder of my uniform.

Mr. BALL. You pointed to a place in front of your shoulder, about the clavicle region?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Is that about where it was?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. On the front of your uniform and not on the side?

Mr. MARTIN. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. That would be left, was it?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes; on the left side.

Mr. BALL. And just below the level of the shoulder?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And what spots were there?

Mr. MARTIN. They were blood spots and other matter.

Mr. BALL. And what did you notice on your windshield?

Mr. MARTIN. There was blood and other matter on my windshield and also on the motor.

Mr. BALL. Was the blood noticeable--were there large splotches?

Mr. MARTIN. No; they weren't large splotches, they were small--it was not very noticeable unless you looked at it.

Mr. BALL. Was the discoloration on your helmet noticeable?

Mr. MARTIN. Not too much--no--as a matter of fact, there were other people around there and two more officers there and they never noticed it.

Mr. BALL. At that time were you with Mr. Hargis?

Mr. MARTIN. No, sir; I don't believe that he went to the hospital with us. I believe he stopped there at the scene of the shooting.

Mr. BALL. And did you ever see his helmet or his uniform or the windshield of his motorcycle?

Mr. MARTIN. No, sir--I never recall seeing him again until the next day.

Mr. BALL. Now, was this blood on the outside or the inside of your windshield?

Mr. MARTIN. It was on the outside of my windshield.

Mr. BALL. Was it on the right or left side?

Mr. MARTIN. It was on the outside of my windshield.

Mr. BALL. And what about the fender of the motorcycle?

Mr. MARTIN. It was just in the front--right on the front just above the cowling on the motorcycle.

Mr. BALL. You say that when you first heard the first shot you thought it was rifle fire?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir--the sharp crack of it.

Mr. BALL. Are you familiar with guns?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever fire a rifle?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Do you own a rifle?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. You have been hunting, I suppose?

Mr. MARTIN. I just returned.

Mr. BALL. You've shot high-powered rifles, have you?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, what do you think the speed of the President's car was--give me your best estimate of the speed of the President's car when you heard the first shot?

Mr. MARTIN. I would say it was under 10 miles an hour--between 5 and 10 at that particular time, about the time of the shots.

Mr. BALL. You were going downhill at that time?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir. The best I remember--I wasn't having any trouble keeping my motor up at that time, so that it was probably between 5 and 10 miles an hour. I don't think it was any faster than 10.

Mr. BALL. Did you at any time come abreast of the President's car in the motorcade?

Mr. MARTIN. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Were you under certain instructions as to how far behind the car you were to keep?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What were those instructions?

Mr. MARTIN. They instructed us that they didn't want anyone riding past the President's car and that we were to ride to the rear, to the rear of his car, about the rear bumper.

Mr. BALL. I think that's all, Officer.

This will be written up and you can look it over and sign it if you wish, or you can waive your signature and we will send it on to the Commission without it.

It's your option.

What would you like to do?

Mr. MARTIN. It doesn't make any difference--it's the truth as I saw it that day.

Mr. BALL. You just as soon waive your signature, then?

Mr. MARTIN. That would be fine.

Mr. BALL. All right, we'll waive your signature.

Mr. MARTIN. All right.

Mr. BALL. Thanks very much for coming in.

Mr. MARTIN. Okay.