Part 40

Mr. CRAIG. Oh, he was sitting down but--uh--he had the same medium brown hair; it was still--well, it was kinda wild looking; he was slender, and--uh--what I could tell of him sitting there, he was--uh--short. By that, I mean not--myself, I'm five eleven--he was shorter than I was. And--uh--fairly light build.

Mr. BELIN. Could you see his trousers?

Mr. CRAIG. No; I couldn't see his trousers at all.

Mr. BELIN. What about his shirt?

Mr. CRAIG. I believe, as close as I can remember, a T-shirt--a white T-shirt.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

But you didn't see him in a lineup? You just saw him sitting there?

Mr. CRAIG. No; he was sitting there by himself in a chair--off to one side.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Then, what did Captain Fritz say and what did you say and what did the suspect say?

Mr. CRAIG. Captain Fritz then asked him about the--uh--he said, "What about this station wagon?"

And the suspect interrupted him and said, "That station wagon belongs to Mrs. Paine"--I believe is what he said. "Don't try to tie her into this. She had nothing to do with it."

And--uh--Captain Fritz then told him, as close as I can remember, that, "All we're trying to do is find out what happened, and this man saw you leave from the scene."

And the suspect again interrupted Captain Fritz and said, "I told you people I did." And--uh--yeah--then, he said--then he continued and he said, "Everybody will know who I am now."

And he was leaning over the desk. At this time, he had risen partially out of the chair and leaning over the desk, looking directly at Captain Fritz.

Mr. BELIN. What was he wearing--or could you see the color of his trousers as he leaned over the desk?

Mr. CRAIG. No; because he never--he just leaned up, you know, sort of forward--not actually up, just out of his chair like that (indicating) forward.

Mr. BELIN. Then, did you say anything more?

Mr. CRAIG. No; I then left.

Mr. BELIN. Well, in other words, the only thing you ever said was, "This was the man,"--or words to that effect?

Mr. CRAIG. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did Captain Fritz say anything more.

Mr. CRAIG. No; I don't believe--not while I was there.

Mr. BELIN. Did the suspect say anything more?

Mr. CRAIG. Not that I recall.

Mr. BELIN. Did you say anything about that it was a Rambler station wagon there?

Mr. CRAIG. In the presence of the suspect?

Mr. BELIN. Yes.

Mr. CRAIG. No.

Mr. BELIN. You don't know whether Captain Fritz said anything to the suspect about this incident before you came, do you?

Mr. CRAIG. No; I don't.

Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else that you can think of involving this interrogation at which you were present?

Mr. CRAIG. No. Nothing else was said after that point. I then left and give my name to the--uh--Secret Service agent and the FBI agent that was outside the office.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else in connection with the assassination that you think might be important that we haven't discussed here?

Mr. CRAIG. No; except--uh--except for the fact that it came out later that Mrs. Paine does own a station wagon and--uh--it has a luggage rack on top. And this came out, of course, later, after I got back to the office. I didn't know about this. Buddy Walthers brought it up. I believe they went by the house and the car was parked in the driveway.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else you can think of?

Mr. CRAIG. No. That's all. I forgot about it and went back to work.

Mr. BELIN. Now, prior to the time we had your deposition taken, we chatted for a few minutes about some of these things--is that correct?

Mr. CRAIG. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. For instance, we talked about your conversation with this young couple--this Arnold Rowland and his wife?

Mr. CRAIG. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Is there anything that we said before the deposition was taken that we haven't recorded here?

Mr. CRAIG. I don't believe so.

Mr. BELIN. Is there anything that I said or you said in our conversation that is different from anything that was recorded here--to the best of your recollection?

Mr. CRAIG. No; except you asked me before, I believe, did I talk to any of the railroad employees.

Mr. BELIN. That's right.

Mr. CRAIG. And I said, "No"--which I did not.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else?

Mr. CRAIG. (Pausing before reply.) No--nothing that I recall.

Mr. BELIN. In our conversation, did you just relate to me what your story was before we sat down to take the deposition?

Mr. CRAIG. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Will you agree to follow or to waive signing of the deposition and leave it in the Court Reporter's hands--or do you want to sign it?

Mr. CRAIG. It makes no difference to me.

Mr. BELIN. By the way, you had notice of this, did you not, of this taking of this deposition?

Mr. CRAIG. Yes. I have the letter right here in my pocket.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Anything else you can think of, sir?

Mr. CRAIG. No.

Mr. BELIN. Well, we want to thank you for taking your time to come down here and we appreciate your cooperation. We would appreciate your, also, thanking Sheriff Decker for us, if you would, when you get back there.

Mr. CRAIG. Okay.

Mr. BELIN. Thank you very much.

One other thing before you go, Mr. Craig. We might have covered this before, but I want to doublecheck it.

When you talked to Mr. Rowland about what he saw in the window, did he say whether or not two men he saw were white or colored?

Mr. CRAIG. Yes; I determined that right away. I asked him whether they were white or colored and he said white.

Mr. BELIN. What else did he tell you about them? Did he tell you how much of them he saw?

Mr. CRAIG. Yes. He said they--uh--walked back and forth in front of the windows there--uh--several minutes. You know, not a long time but 3, 4, 5 minutes. He did state that one of them had a rifle with a scope on it.

Mr. BELIN. Did he give you the color of the hair or the complexion or anything like that?

Mr. CRAIG. No--no; this he couldn't give.

Mr. BELIN. Could he give you the type of clothing they were wearing?

Mr. CRAIG. If I recall, he was vague on one--he thought it was khakis, but the other man he wasn't sure.

Mr. BELIN. Did he tell you anything else about these people?

Mr. CRAIG. Yes; he said he looked up a few minutes later and--uh--there was only one man up there then.

Mr. BELIN. Did he ever tell you anything about seeing any other people in any other windows?

Mr. CRAIG. Yes; he said there were people in other windows looking over the ledges--you know, leaning up against the outside of the windows, looking out.

Mr. BELIN. Did he tell you whether any of these other people were on the sixth floor?

Mr. CRAIG. No; these two men were the only ones he saw on that particular floor.

Mr. BELIN. Did he tell you that was the sixth floor he saw them on?

Mr. CRAIG. Yes. He said the second to the top floor--the next floor down; which would be the sixth floor.

Mr. BELIN. Did he tell you about ever seeing anyone else on the sixth floor--or did he say that he didn't see anyone else on the sixth floor? Or don't you remember?

Mr. CRAIG. Just the two men. That's all he saw on that particular floor.

Mr. BELIN. Did you specifically ask him if he saw anyone else on that floor, or did he say that he did not?

Mr. CRAIG. No; I asked him and he said----

Mr. BELIN. Well, what was your statement to him and what was his to you?

Mr. CRAIG. I asked him was there anybody else on the floor with these two men. And he said, "No, just the two of them."

Mr. BELIN. Did he say that he saw these two men together first?

Mr. CRAIG. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. And then he just saw one, as I understand it?

Mr. CRAIG. A few minutes later, he looked back up there and saw just the man with the rifle.

Mr. BELIN. I believe he said earlier that he saw these men around 15 minutes before the motorcade arrived? And then a few minutes later, you say that he told you he saw only one man?

Mr. CRAIG. Right.

Mr. BELIN. Did he then tell you that he saw no men--or what did he say about what he saw after that?

Mr. CRAIG. Well, then, I took him to Officer Lewis and turned him over to Lemmy Lewis.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else you can think of about that conversation?

Mr. CRAIG. No; there was not--I don't think there was anything else discussed except for the fact that he told me he thought--he said he thought he was a Secret Service agent--and that's why he didn't report it.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Now, if you would just wait here one more minute, Mr. Craig, Mr. Ball stepped in and he's going down to pick up some clothing. And we'd like to have you take a look at this clothing and see if this looks familiar to any of the clothing that you saw on the man running toward the Rambler.

If you'll just wait a minute here please sir.

(Mr. Ball returns to deposition room with box of clothing.)

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Craig, I hand you Exhibit No. 150. Have you ever seen a shirt like this before? Does this look familiar to the shirt that the suspect might have been wearing when you saw him, or this man running toward the station wagon?

Mr. CRAIG. It's the same type of shirt.

Mr. BELIN. I believe you used the phrase, "light shirt". Would Exhibit 150 be darker than the shirt that he was wearing?

Mr. CRAIG. Uh--it looks darker in here--yes, uh-huh.

Mr. BELIN. Was this man running towards the station wagon wearing a jacket?

Mr. CRAIG. No; I don't believe he was.

Mr. BELIN. I hand you Exhibit No. 156. Did the trousers that this man running toward the station wagon had on--were they this color--lighter, darker, or a different kind of trousers--or what?

Mr. CRAIG. No. They were--uh--they were work trousers like those; but they looked blue to me.

Mr. BELIN. And this Exhibit 156 looks kind of gray?

Mr. CRAIG. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What about Exhibit 157?

Mr. CRAIG. Well, those are more the color.

Mr. BELIN. But they still looked different from Exhibit 157, too?

Mr. CRAIG. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Have you discussed with Sheriff Decker the fact that when Oswald was picked up they found a bus transfer in his pocket?

Mr. CRAIG. No; I knew--uh--nothing about a bus transfer.

Mr. BELIN. Do you feel, in your own mind, that the man you saw at Captain Fritz's office was the same man that you saw running towards the station wagon?

Mr. CRAIG. Yes; I feel like it was.

Mr. BELIN. Do you feel that you might have been influenced by the fact that you knew he was the suspect--subconsciously, or do you----

Mr. CRAIG. Well, it's--it's possible, but I still feel strongly that it was the same person.

Mr. BELIN. Okay. That's it. Thank you.

TESTIMONY OF GEORGE W. RACKLEY, SR.

The testimony of George W. Rackley, Sr., was taken at 11 a.m., on April 8, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Rackley, do you want to stand and raise your right hand and be sworn, please.

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy, is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. RACKLEY. I do.

Mr. BELIN. You can be seated. Your name is George W. Rackley, Sr?

Mr. RACKLEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Where do you live, Mr. Rackley?

Mr. RACKLEY. I live at Ferris.

Mr. BELIN. Texas?

Mr. RACKLEY. Ferris, Tex.

Mr. BELIN. Is that a suburb of Dallas?

Mr. RACKLEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Were you raised in Texas?

Mr. RACKLEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Born in Texas?

Mr. RACKLEY. No; I was born in Alabama.

Mr. BELIN. Raised in Texas? Go to school here in Texas?

Mr. RACKLEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. How far did you get through school?

Mr. RACKLEY. Fifth.

Mr. BELIN. Fifth grade?

Mr. RACKLEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. RACKLEY. Well, I went to farming.

Mr. BELIN. You went to farming?

Mr. RACKLEY. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Well, I am from Iowa. We do a lot of farming up there.

Mr. RACKLEY. That is what I do here.

Mr. BELIN. All right, then what did you do?

Mr. RACKLEY. Well, at the present I am working for the Coordinated Railroad Co.

Mr. BELIN. For the what?

Mr. RACKLEY. For the Katy. It is a Katy railroad project, but it is a coordinated deal.

Mr. BELIN. What are you doing?

Mr. RACKLEY. I unload trailers.

Mr. BELIN. You unload trailers?

Mr. RACKLEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Let me backtrack. How old are you?

Mr. RACKLEY. I am 60.

Mr. BELIN. You said you quit school in the Fifth Grade and went to farming. How long did you farm?

Mr. RACKLEY. I farmed up to 3 years ago.

Mr. BELIN. You farmed up to 3 years ago?

Mr. RACKLEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What kind of farming?

Mr. RACKLEY. Well, I raised cotton and corn.

Mr. BELIN. Then 3 years ago where did you go to work?

Mr. RACKLEY. I went to work here. Well, I have been working off in spare times for about 8 years.

Mr. BELIN. For the same place?

Mr. RACKLEY. Yes; same place.

Mr. BELIN. Is that here in Dallas?

Mr. RACKLEY. That is here in Dallas.

Mr. BELIN. Where in Dallas is it?

Mr. RACKLEY. It is on Ross and Market Street, about two blocks from the courthouse.

Mr. BELIN. Now where is it with relation to the corner of Elm and Houston?

Mr. RACKLEY. Well, it is on up on Ross. Two blocks north is where our place is.

Mr. BELIN. Your place is two blocks north of the corner of Elm and Houston?

Mr. RACKLEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. You work indoors or outdoors?

Mr. RACKLEY. Just all over town.

Mr. BELIN. Just all over town?

Mr. RACKLEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Where were you working around the noon hour of Friday, November 22, 1963?

Mr. RACKLEY. Well, I was there at the office.

Mr. BELIN. Were you inside or outside?

Mr. RACKLEY. Our office is just a little small place. Well, just outside, you might say, of it.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see the President's motorcade at all on that day?

Mr. RACKLEY. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BELIN. Were you standing with anyone there?

Mr. RACKLEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. With whom?

Mr. RACKLEY. With James Romack. I and him had walked out.

Mr. BELIN. You had walked out?

Mr. RACKLEY. I heard the siren; the parade was coming.

Mr. BELIN. You heard sirens?

Mr. RACKLEY. Yes, sir. And I had walked out in front of the place to where I could get a better view, as a fellow says.

Mr. BELIN. Where were you standing?

Mr. RACKLEY. Well, I had walked out in the truck lot.

Mr. BELIN. In the truck lot?

Mr. RACKLEY. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. And was that----

Mr. RACKLEY. You might say would have been in the middle of the street.

Mr. BELIN. Would that have been in the middle of Houston Street?

Mr. RACKLEY. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. In what direction were you facing?

Mr. RACKLEY. Facing south.

Mr. BELIN. All right, did you see the motorcade at all?

Mr. RACKLEY. No.

Mr. BELIN. What did you see?

Mr. RACKLEY. I didn't practically see anything.

Mr. BELIN. Did you hear any sounds at all?

Mr. RACKLEY. Yes. Heard the sounds of the parade.

Mr. BELIN. Did you hear the sounds that sounded like firecrackers or shots at all?

Mr. RACKLEY. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Didn't hear that?

Mr. RACKLEY. No.

Mr. BELIN. About how far would you have been from the northeast corner of the Texas School Book Depository when you were standing there?

Mr. RACKLEY. I would say right at a block.

Mr. BELIN. About a block. Do you have any idea about how many feet that is?

Mr. RACKLEY. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. BELIN. Were you just standing there, or were you walking?

Mr. RACKLEY. I was just standing there.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see anything happen at all there?

Mr. RACKLEY. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see anyone in the parade?

Mr. RACKLEY. The only thing--I told the guy, he was down there, the only thing that I saw that looked suspicious to me, there was something like a hundred pigeons flew up like you shot into them, and I noticed that, but I never heard no shots.

Mr. BELIN. Where did you see them fly from?

Mr. RACKLEY. From over the top of the building.

Mr. BELIN. Which building? The School Book Depository or over on the other side?

Mr. RACKLEY. The Trinity Building.

Mr. BELIN. Which building did they fly off of?

Mr. RACKLEY. I wasn't looking. I just seen they all flew together.

Mr. BELIN. Did it look like they were flying up from both buildings?

Mr. RACKLEY. Both buildings.

Mr. BELIN. You don't know about when this took place?

Mr. RACKLEY. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. BELIN. About what time was it that you were looking that way, do you remember, offhand?

Mr. RACKLEY. No; but it was just at the time that the parade was nearing there, I know that.

Mr. BELIN. Had any of the parade already gone by the corner of Elm and Houston?

Mr. RACKLEY. I couldn't say.

Mr. BELIN. So you don't know whether it did or didn't?

Mr. RACKLEY. No.

Mr. BELIN. But would you say it was about that time that the motorcade was to be going by there?

Mr. RACKLEY. It was between 11 and 12.

Mr. BELIN. It was between 11 and 12?

Mr. RACKLEY. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. O'clock?

Mr. RACKLEY. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What time did you--was this before or after you had lunch?

Mr. RACKLEY. Well, I just eat just any time I get a chance.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know accurately what time it was?

Mr. RACKLEY. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. BELIN. Could it have been as late as 12:30?

Mr. RACKLEY. No.

Mr. BELIN. It was before 12:30?

Mr. RACKLEY. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Before 12?

Mr. RACKLEY. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Sometime between 11 and 12?

Mr. RACKLEY. Well, it was at the time that, really, that they had shot him, because I was there when the policemen covered the place.

Mr. BELIN. You were there when the policemen covered the place?

Mr. RACKLEY. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. With relation to the time that the policemen covered the place, how many minutes before that did you see the birds fly up?

Mr. RACKLEY. I saw the pigeons there 2 or 3 minutes before that.

Mr. BELIN. Now after you saw the pigeons, you saw the police covering the place?

Mr. RACKLEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Within 2 or 3 minutes after you saw the pigeons?

Mr. RACKLEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see any people coming out the back door at all?

Mr. RACKLEY. No.

Mr. BELIN. Could you see the back door of the Texas School Book Depository?

Mr. RACKLEY. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. That was at the dock they have back there?

Mr. RACKLEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Were you looking towards that direction?

Mr. RACKLEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. About how long did you keep your eyes fixed over there?

Mr. RACKLEY. Oh, I would say 5 minutes anyhow. Probably 10. I was looking up that way at all times.

Mr. BELIN. Five or 10 minutes, you figure?

Mr. RACKLEY. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see any people leave the Texas School Book Depository by way of the rear exit?

Mr. RACKLEY. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see any people running north on Houston Street?

Mr. RACKLEY. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you tell your company supervisor that there had been some shooting?

Mr. RACKLEY. No; not right then.

Mr. BELIN. Later did you tell them?

Mr. RACKLEY. Yes; I imagine.

Mr. BELIN. You said you stayed there 5 or 10 minutes looking to the south?

Mr. RACKLEY. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do after that?

Mr. RACKLEY. Well, when the policemen began to crowd around and they all over the place, well then I told him I thought that something had happened over there.

I wasn't expecting anything like that until I just, of course, seen the policemen all out there running back. They came out the back door and the side door with guns.

Mr. BELIN. Who did you tell that to that you thought something happened there?

Mr. RACKLEY. Gail George.

Mr. BELIN. Is that your foreman?

Mr. RACKLEY. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. After you said you kept your eyes on this looking south for 5 or 10 minutes, what did you do after that?

Mr. RACKLEY. Well, I went back to the office.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do after that?

Mr. RACKLEY. Well, I don't remember.

Mr. BELIN. During this period of 5 or 10 minutes, did you walk close to the building at all, or just stand there?

Mr. RACKLEY. Just stood out there.

Mr. BELIN. What about Romack? Did he stand with you, or did he walk closer?

Mr. RACKLEY. He walked closer.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else you can think of, whether I have asked it or not, that in any way might be relevant to this inquiry?

Mr. RACKLEY. It wasn't a thing that I knew. I didn't really know or expect what was taking place.

Mr. BELIN. Other than the pigeons?

Mr. RACKLEY. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Sir, we thank you for your cooperation. You have a right, if you want, to come back down and read your testimony and sign it, or you can just waive doing that and have the court reporter send it directly to us without your taking another trip down here. You can do it either way.

Mr. RACKLEY. I can sign it now.

Mr. BELIN. You can either waive signing it or else you can come down again and read it and sign it. By waiving, I mean you just let it go, assuming that the court reporter will accurately transcribe it, or you have a right to come in and read it.

Mr. RACKLEY. I will just let it go.

Mr. BELIN. You waive signing it?

Mr. RACKLEY. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. That is all for now.

TESTIMONY OF JAMES ELBERT ROMACK

The testimony of James Elbert Romack was taken at 11:30 a.m., on April 8, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BELIN. You want to stand and raise your right hand.

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. ROMACK. I do.

Mr. BELIN. My name is David Belin. I am actually a practicing attorney from Des Moines, Iowa. I have been with the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy for several months here, and we asked you to come down to have your deposition taken.

Mr. BELIN. Would you please state your name for the record?

Mr. ROMACK. James Elbert Romack.

Mr. BELIN. R-o-m-a-c-k?

Mr. ROMACK. Right.

Mr. BELIN. Where do you live, Mr. Romack?

Mr. ROMACK. 10825 Benbrook Drive, Dallas, Tex.

Mr. BELIN. How old a man are you?

Mr. ROMACK. I am 39 years of age.

Mr. BELIN. Were you born in Texas?

Mr. ROMACK. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Go to school here?

Mr. ROMACK. I went to school in Texas, yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. How far did you get through school?

Mr. ROMACK. I got a couple of years of college.

Mr. BELIN. A couple of years of college?

Mr. ROMACK. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What college?

Mr. ROMACK. East Texas State Teachers College and Technological College.

Mr. BELIN. Did you go to college right after high school?

Mr. ROMACK. It was right after the war.

Mr. BELIN. You went right after the war?

Mr. ROMACK. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did you go----

Mr. ROMACK. I take it back, I was going to Tech when the war broke out, and went to East Texas State after the war.

Mr. BELIN. When the war broke out, what did you do?

Mr. ROMACK. I went into the Navy.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do in the Navy?

Mr. ROMACK. I was in the Amphibious, on the Aleutian Islands, and took boot training in San Diego.

I went to the Aleutian Islands and came back and went to Pearl Harbor and stayed out there for 9 months, and boarded an LST and went through the campaigns of the Philippines and Okinawa and Japan and then returned back home.

Mr. BELIN. When did you get back to the States?

Mr. ROMACK. March 1946.

Mr. BELIN. I was stationed in Japan right after the last war. Where were you stationed?

Mr. ROMACK. I was on this LST in Pearl Harbor.

Mr. BELIN. Were you in Japan after the war?

Mr. ROMACK. Yes, I was there during the time the Treaty was signed. We were in the, I forget the name, we were riding typhoons. We rode out eight of them, and our ship came back without the two side doors. All we had was the big ramp.

Mr. BELIN. That must have been quite a voyage back?

Mr. ROMACK. They were taking water in the port and bailing it over in the back.

Mr. BELIN. When you got back to the States, what did you do?