Part 4

Dr. PERRY. The Saturday Evening Post contacted the department of surgery here, and talked with Dr. Tom Shires, chief of surgical services, in regard to a possible article on the treatment of the President. This was declined by us, and we requested that no such article be printed, and Dr. Shires informed me shortly thereafter about this conversation. Subsequently, an article was printed, which apparently was a copyrighted item. It first appeared in the New York Herald Tribune. It contained my picture and a picture of trauma room No. 1, and described the incidents surrounding the treatment of the President. Some of that information was obtained by personal interview of myself and Dr. Shires on Saturday morning, and I assume that the rest of it was obtained from various people here.

Mr. SPECTER. Was the content of that story accurate?

Dr. PERRY. There were certain inaccuracies--the overall content was fairly consistent--there were inaccuracies in identification of participants and there were some inaccuracies in regards to conversations purported to have been held, and I do not, however, have knowledge about some of the other references made in the article, since they were apparently based on interviews with people other than myself.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Perry, have you talked to any representatives of the Federal Government about this matter prior to today?

Dr. PERRY. Yes, I have.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you relate whom you have talked to and on what occasions? As best you can recollect it.

Dr. PERRY. Well, I talked to several people, and I regret that I did not keep a record of it, and I find at this time that a lot of these things such as Dr. Humes' call, I suppose I should have kept a little better record, since everything was so kaleidoscopic that I have a very difficult time putting the proper sequence on it. I talked to several people who identified themselves both by name and with credentials as being affiliated with the Secret Service.

Mr. SPECTER. On how many occasions have you talked with Secret Service personnel?

Dr. PERRY. At least three times, sir. Now, I can't give you the exact dates of these, and unfortunately the last two gentlemen, I can't even remember their names now.

Mr. SPECTER. How about the first gentleman?

Dr. PERRY. No, his either. I was trying to think of the last two. I indicated that they both had the same last name, but at the present time it escapes me.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you tell them in essence?

Dr. PERRY. Essentially what I have told you in regard to my impressions and my care of the President.

Mr. SPECTER. Has there ever been any variation in the information which you have given the Federal investigators?

Dr. PERRY. No, sir; not in essence. There may have been a variation in wording or sequence of my presentation, but the treatment as I outlined it to you and as I outlined it to them, to the best of my knowledge, has been essentially consistent.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you talked to any other representatives of the Federal Government besides the Secret Service men?

Dr. PERRY. I talked to two gentlemen initially within--who identified themselves as being with the Federal Bureau of Investigation. I do not recall their names either.

Mr. SPECTER. What did they ask you about?

Dr. PERRY. Essentially the same questions in regard to what I might speculate as to the origin of the missiles and their trajectory, and I replied to them as I have to you that I could not ascertain this of my own knowledge, and described the wounds to the extent I saw them.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you set forth here today the same information which you gave to the FBI?

Dr. PERRY. Yes, I think this is considerably in more detail, being essentially the same thing.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you now told me about all of the talks you have had with representatives of the Federal Government prior to today?

Dr. PERRY. I think I have.

Mr. SPECTER. And did you and I sit down and talk about the purpose of this deposition and the questions which I would be asking you on the record, before this deposition started?

Dr. PERRY. Yes; we did.

Mr. SPECTER. And did you give me the same information which you provided on the record here today?

Dr. PERRY. I have.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add which you think might be helpful in any way to the President's Commission?

Dr. PERRY. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Perry, we appreciate your coming for your deposition today, and I have given you a letter requesting your presence in Washington on Monday morning at 9 o'clock and I would ask you, for the record, to acknowledge receipt of letter, if you will, please.

Dr. PERRY. Yes; I have the letter here and I will be there.

Mr. SPECTER. Thank you, very much, sir. Let me ask you one more question, Dr. Perry, for the record, before we terminate this deposition. What experience have you had, if any, with gunshot wounds?

Dr. PERRY. I think in the course of my training here at Parkland, which is a city-county hospital and handles the great majority of the trauma cases that occur in Dallas County, that I have seen a fairly considerable number of traumatic wounds caused by knives, automobile accidents, gunshot wounds of various types.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you had any experience with gunshot wounds, in addition to that obtained here at Parkland?

Dr. PERRY. You mean, in the service?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes, sir.

Dr. PERRY. No, I had occasion to see only one gunshot wound while I was in the service.

Mr. SPECTER. Can you estimate how many gunshot wounds you have seen while you have been at Parkland?

Dr. PERRY. Probably it would be numbered in the hundreds.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you had any formal training in ballistics?

Dr. PERRY. No, other than the fact that I do some hunting and amateur hand loader.

Mr. SPECTER. Amateur what?

Dr. PERRY. Amateur hand loader--hand load ammunition.

Mr. SPECTER. Thank you very much.

Dr. PERRY. All right. Thank you.

TESTIMONY OF DR. WILLIAM KEMP CLARK

The testimony of Dr. William Kemp Clark was taken at 11:50 a.m., on March 21, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you stand up please, Dr. Clark, and raise your right hand?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you will give before the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy in this deposition proceeding will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Dr. CLARK. I do.

Mr. SPECTER. You may be seated.

Dr. CLARK. Thank you.

Mr. SPECTER. The President's Commission is investigating all facts related to the Assassination of President Kennedy, and you have been asked to testify in this deposition proceeding relating to the medical treatment received by President Kennedy at Parkland Memorial Hospital and all facts incident thereto.

Dr. Clark, have you received a letter from the President's Commission enclosing a copy of the Executive Order establishing the Commission and a copy of a Senate and House Joint Resolution about the Commission, and a letter relating to the taking of testimony by the Commission?

Dr. CLARK. I have.

Mr. SPECTER. And are you willing to proceed with this deposition today, even though 3 days have not elapsed between the time you received the letter and this morning?

Dr. CLARK. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you state your full name for the record, please?

Dr. CLARK. William Kemp Clark.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you outline in a general way your educational background, please?

Dr. CLARK. Yes. I graduated from the University of Texas in Austin, 1944. I graduated from the University of Texas Medical Branch at Galveston in 1948. I interned at Indiana University Medical Center and was a resident in surgery there from 1948 to 1950. I spent 2 years in the Air Force and then took my residency in neurological surgery at Columbia Presbyterian Hospital in New York City. This was from 1953 to 1956, at which time I came to the University of Texas, Southwestern Medical School, as chairman of the division of neurological surgery.

Would you like the professional qualifications?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes; may I have the professional qualifications in summary form, if you will, please.

Dr. CLARK. I am board certified by the American Board of Neurological Surgery. I am a Fellow with the American College of Surgeons. I am a member of the Harvey Cushing Society.

Mr. SPECTER. What is the Harvey Cushing Society, by the way?

Dr. CLARK. It is the largest society of neurological surgeons in the world.

Mr. SPECTER. And what do your duties consist of with respect to the Southwestern Medical School of the University of Texas?

Dr. CLARK. I am in charge of the division of neurological surgery and carry the responsibility of administering this department or this division, to arrange the instruction of medical students in neurological surgery and to conduct research in this field.

Mr. SPECTER. What were your duties back on November 22, 1963?

Dr. CLARK. Essentially these. I also, as chairman of the division, have the responsibility as director of neurological surgery at Parkland Memorial Hospital which is the major teaching hospital of the medical school.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you receive notification on November 22, 1963, that the President had been wounded and was en route to this hospital?

Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know at approximately what time you got that notification?

Dr. CLARK. Approximately 12:20 or 12:30.

Mr. SPECTER. And what action, if any, did you take as a result of receiving that notification?

Dr. CLARK. I went immediately to the emergency room at Parkland Hospital. I was in the laboratory at Southwestern Medical School when this word reached me by phone from the hospital.

Mr. SPECTER. And at approximately what time did you then arrive at the emergency room?

Dr. CLARK. I would estimate it took a minute and a half to two minutes, so I would guess that I arrived approximately 12:30.

Mr. SPECTER. And who was present, if anyone, upon your arrival, attending to the President?

Dr. CLARK. Dr. Jenkins, that is M. T. Jenkins, I suppose I ought to say, Dr. Ronald Jones, Dr. Malcolm Perry, Dr. James Carrico; arriving either with me or immediately thereafter were Dr. Robert McClelland, Dr. Paul Peters, and Dr. Charles Baxter.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe the President's condition to be on your arrival there?

Dr. CLARK. The President was lying on his back on the emergency cart. Dr. Perry was performing a tracheotomy. There were chest tubes being inserted. Dr. Jenkins was assisting the President's respirations through a tube in his trachea. Dr. Jones and Dr. Carrico were administering fluids and blood intravenously. The President was making a few spasmodic respiratory efforts. I assisted in withdrawing the endotracheal tube from the throat as Dr. Perry was then ready to insert the tracheotomy tube. I then examined the President briefly.

My findings showed his pupils were widely dilated, did not react to light, and his eyes were deviated outward with a slight skew deviation.

I then examined the wound in the back of the President's head. This was a large, gaping wound in the right posterior part, with cerebral and cerebellar tissue being damaged and exposed. There was considerable blood loss evident on the carriage, the floor, and the clothing of some of the people present. I would estimate 1,500 cc. of blood being present.

As I was examining the President's wound, I felt for a carotid pulse and felt none. Therefore, I began external cardiac massage and asked that a cardiotachioscope be connected. Because of my position it was difficult to administer cardiac massage. However, Dr. Jones stated that he felt a femoral pulse.

Mr. SPECTER. What is a femoral pulse?

Dr. CLARK. A femoral artery is the main artery going to the legs, and at the junction of the leg and the trunk you can feel the arterial pulsation in this artery. Because of my position, cardiac massage was taken over by Dr. Malcolm Perry, who was more advantageously situated.

Mr. SPECTER. What did the cardiotachioscope show at that time?

Dr. CLARK. By this time the cardiotachioscope, we just call it a cardiac monitor for a better word----

Mr. SPECTER. That's a good word.

Dr. CLARK. The cardiotachioscope had been attached and Dr. Fouad Bashour had arrived. There was transient electrical activity of the President's heart of an undefined type. Approximately, at this time the external cardiac massage became ineffectual and no pulsations could be felt. At this time it was decided to pronounce the President dead.

Mr. SPECTER. At what time was this fixed?

Dr. CLARK. Death was fixed at 1 p.m.

Mr. SPECTER. Was that a precise time or an approximate time, or in what way did you fix the time of death at 1 o'clock?

Dr. CLARK. This was an approximation as it is, first, extremely difficult to state precisely when death occurs. Secondly, no one was monitoring the clock, so an approximation of 1 o'clock was chosen.

Mr. SPECTER. Who was it who actually fixed the time of death?

Dr. CLARK. I did.

Mr. SPECTER. And did you have any part in the filling out of the death certificate?

Dr. CLARK. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And what did you do with respect to that?

Dr. CLARK. I filled out the death certificate at the request of Dr. George Burkley, the President's physician at the White House, signed the death certificate as a registered physician in the State of Texas, and gave this to him to accompany the body to Washington.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you advise anyone else in the Presidential party of the death of the President?

Dr. CLARK. Yes; I told Mrs. Kennedy, the President's wife, of his death.

Mr. SPECTER. And what, if anything, did she respond to you?

Dr. CLARK. She told me that she knew it and thanked me for our efforts.

Mr. SPECTER. Were any bullets or parts of bullets found in the President's body?

Dr. CLARK. Not by me, nor did I see any such missiles recovered at Parkland Hospital.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you a part of any press conference which followed on the day of the assassination?

Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir; I was.

Mr. SPECTER. And who made the arrangements for the press conference?

Dr. CLARK. Mr. Malcolm Kilduff, the Presidential press secretary.

Mr. SPECTER. At what time did the press conference occur?

Dr. CLARK. Approximately 2:30.

Mr. SPECTER. Where was it held?

Dr. CLARK. It was held in room 101-102, Parkland Hospital.

Mr. SPECTER. What mechanical instruments were used, if any, by the press at the conference?

Dr. CLARK. Tape recorders and television cameras, as well as the usual note pads and pencils, and so forth.

Mr. SPECTER. And who was interviewed during the course of the press conference and photographed?

Dr. CLARK. Dr. Malcolm Perry and myself.

Mr. SPECTER. No one else?

Dr. CLARK. No.

Mr. SPECTER. What, if anything, did you say then in the course of that press conference?

Dr. CLARK. I described the President's wound in his head in very much the same way as I have described it here. I was asked if this wound was an entrance wound, an exit wound, or what, and I said it could be an exit wound, but I felt it was a tangential wound.

Mr. SPECTER. Which wound did you refer to at this time?

Dr. CLARK. The wound in the head.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you describe at that time what you meant by "tangential"?

Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. SPECTER. What definition of "tangential" did you make at that time?

Dr. CLARK. As I remember, I defined the word "tangential" as being--striking an object obliquely, not squarely or head on.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe at this time in somewhat greater detail the consequences of a tangential wound as contrasted with another type of a striking?

Dr. CLARK. Let me begin by saying that the damage suffered by an organ when struck by a bullet or other missile----

Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that I interrupted the deposition for about 2 minutes to ascertain what our afternoon schedule would be here because the regular administration office ordinarily closes at 12 o'clock, which was just about 15 minutes ago, and then we resumed the deposition of Dr. Clark as he was discussing the concept of tangential and other types of striking.

Go ahead, Doctor.

Dr. CLARK. The effects of any missile striking an organ or a function of the energy which is shed by the missile in passing through this organ when a bullet strikes the head, if it is able to pass through rapidly without shedding any energy into the brain, little damage results, other than that part of the brain which is directly penetrated by the missile. However, if it strikes the skull at an angle, it must then penetrate much more bone than normal, therefore, is likely to shed more energy, striking the brain a more powerful blow.

Secondly, in striking the bone in this manner, it may cause pieces of the bone to be blown into the brain and thus act as secondary missiles. Finally, the bullet itself may be deformed and deflected so that it would go through or penetrate parts of the brain, not in the usual direct line it was proceeding.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, referring back to the press conference, did you define a tangential wound at that time?

Dr. CLARK. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And what else did you state at the press conference at 2:30 on November 22?

Dr. CLARK. I stated that the President had lost considerable blood, that one of the contributing causes of death was this massive blood loss, that I was unable to state how many wounds the President had sustained or from what angle they could have come.

I finally remember stating that the President's wound was obviously a massive one and was insurvivable.

Mr. SPECTER. What did Dr. Perry say at that time, during the course of that press conference, when the cameras were operating?

Dr. CLARK. As I recall, Dr. Perry stated that there was a small wound in the President's throat, that he made the incision for the tracheotomy through this wound. He discovered that the trachea was deviated so he felt that the missile had entered the President's chest. He asked for chest tubes then to be placed in the pleural cavities. He was asked if this wound in the throat was an entrance wound or an exit wound. He said it was small and clean so it could have been an entrance wound.

Mr. SPECTER. Did he say anything else that you can recollect now in response to the question of whether it was a wound of entrance or exit?

Dr. CLARK. No, sir; I cannot recall.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you a part of a second press conference, Dr. Clark?

Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And when did that second press conference occur?

Dr. CLARK. On Saturday, the 23d.

Mr. SPECTER. At about what time?

Dr. CLARK. Sometime in the morning, as I recall.

Mr. SPECTER. Going back to the first press conference for just a minute, which television networks were involved on that?

Dr. CLARK. Without sounding facetious, everyone, including some I had never heard of.

Mr. SPECTER. Can you recollect any besides the three major networks--ABC, CBS, and NBC?

Dr. CLARK. This is all I remember. I remember seeing in the room two reporters from Dallas newspapers whom I know and the radio and television stations were also present.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, going back to the second conference which I had started asking you about, had you had an opportunity to tell me what time of day that was?

Dr. CLARK. It was in the morning, as I recall.

Mr. SPECTER. And what television stations or networks were involved in that conference?

Dr. CLARK. Again, all three major networks, and I believe through our local affiliates. It does not seem as though this one was as jammed and as full as the first one.

Mr. SPECTER. And who arranged that press conference?

Dr. CLARK. That press conference was arranged by Mr. Steve Landregan, assistant administrator and public relations officer for the hospital. This is his office.

Mr. SPECTER. And who spoke at that press conference while the television cameras were grinding?

Dr. CLARK. Dr. Perry and myself.

Mr. SPECTER. And what did you say at that time?

Dr. CLARK. Essentially the same thing as I had on the first press conference, again defining tangential, and again describing the President's wound as being massive and unsurvivable.

Mr. SPECTER. And what did Dr. Perry, at that time, say?

Dr. CLARK. Dr. Perry said very little. He described the President's condition as he first saw him, when he was first called, and he described the manner in which he was called to the emergency room.

Mr. SPECTER. Did he say anything about whether the neck wound was a point of entry or exit?

Dr. CLARK. I do not remember--I specifically discussed this--may I add something to what I said in the first press conference?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes; please do, if you find something that comes to mind, please feel free to add that.

Dr. CLARK. All right. Let me check what I remember Dr. Perry said at the first press conference. He was asked if the neck wound could be a wound of entrance or appeared to be a wound of exit, and Dr. Perry said something like "possibly or conceivably," or something of this sort.

Mr. SPECTER. And, did he elaborate as to how that projectory would have been possible in that press conference?

Dr. CLARK. He did not elaborate on this. One of the reporters with gestures indicated the direction that such a bullet would have to take, and Dr. Perry quite obviously had to agree that this is the way it had to go to get from there to the top of his head.

Mr. SPECTER. But that was a possible trajectory under the circumstances?

Dr. CLARK. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. How would that have been postulated in terms of striking specific parts of the body?

Dr. CLARK. Well, on a speculation, this would mean that the missile would have had to have been fired from below--upward or that the President was hanging upside down.

Me. SPECTER. Did Dr. Perry discuss anything with you prior to that second conference about a telephone call from Washington, D.C.?

Dr. CLARK. Yes; he did.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you relate briefly what Dr. Perry told you about that subject?

Dr. CLARK. Yes; Dr. Perry stated that he had talked to the Bethesda Naval Hospital on two occasions that morning and that he knew what the autopsy findings had shown and that he did not wish to be questioned by the press, as he had been asked by Bethesda to confine his remarks to that which he knew from having examined the President, and suggested that the major part of this press conference be conducted by me.

Mr. SPECTER. Was anyone else present when he expressed those thoughts to you?

Dr. CLARK. I believe that Mr. Price and Dr. Shires were present. I could be wrong on that.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, were you a part of a third press conference?

Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And when did that occur?

Dr. CLARK. During the following week--I have forgotten exactly the day.

Mr. SPECTER. And what networks were involved at that time?

Dr. CLARK. It was CBS.

Mr. SPECTER. Was that a television conference?

Dr. CLARK. Yes; this was filmed.

Mr. SPECTER. And who arranged that conference?

Dr. CLARK. Again, Mr. Landregan.

Mr. SPECTER. And who spoke at that conference?

Dr. CLARK. Dr. Shaw, Dr. Shires, Dr. Baxter, Dr. McClelland, Dr. Jenkins, Dr. Gieseke, and myself.

Mr. SPECTER. Was Dr. Perry there at that time?

Dr. CLARK. Yes; Dr. Perry was there.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you outline briefly what you said at that time, if it differed in any way from what you said before?

Dr. CLARK. No, sir; it did not.

Mr. SPECTER. What did Dr. Perry say at that time?

Dr. CLARK. Essentially the same thing that he had said before, describing the wound in the throat, describing the condition of the President, how he was called and so forth.

Mr. SPECTER. Did he comment at that time as to whether it was an entrance wound or an exit wound or what?

Dr. CLARK. I don't remember.

Mr. SPECTER. And what did Dr. Shaw say at that time?