Part 37

Mr. HOLLAND. Because, you couldn't very well see over it standing down in the mud, or standing on the ground, and to get a better view you could----

Mr. STERN. Was there anything else you noticed about this station wagon?

Mr. HOLLAND. No.

Mr. STERN. Do you recall the----

Mr. HOLLAND. They searched all the cars in that location.

Mr. STERN. Did this occur to you----

Mr. HOLLAND. It occurred to me immediately when I saw it there; yes.

Mr. STERN. And you thought about it later in the day?

Mr. HOLLAND. I thought about it that night.

Mr. STERN. I see.

Mr. HOLLAND. In fact, I went to bed--it was about a week there I couldn't sleep, much, brother, and I thought about it that night, and I have thought about it a lot of times since then.

Mr. STERN. Did you ever go back to look at that site or look at the station wagon?

Mr. HOLLAND. No; I didn't go back that afternoon, because I spent the rest of the day in the county jail office over there, but a number of your Federal Agents went out there then and Secret Service men. It was just a beehive.

Mr. STERN. Yes.

Mr. HOLLAND. In a matter of a few minutes.

Mr. STERN. Did you tell any of the Federal officers, or any of the Dallas Police officers about it?

Mr. HOLLAND. I don't think I did.

Mr. STERN. This is really the first time----

Mr. HOLLAND. This is the first time that I have discussed it, that I remember. Now, I might have told in our conversation. I don't remember that, but I don't think I did.

Mr. STERN. I am not aware of any other occasion in which you did.

Mr. MORRISON. You thought the officers there would take care of that?

Mr. HOLLAND. I thought that the officers would take care of it because there were so many there, I thought they would take care of everything, and a layman didn't have any business up there, and I went on back to my office.

Mr. STERN. When you ran behind the picket fence after the shots were fired, did you come near the area where the station wagon was parked?

Mr. HOLLAND. Went up to behind the arcade as far as you could go.

Mr. STERN. So, you would have passed where this station wagon was?

Mr. HOLLAND. Yes.

Mr. STERN. Or, that area?

Mr. HOLLAND. Yes; immediately, but I turned around, see, and went to searching in there for empty shells, and three or four agents there then and that is when I walked back to the car there and noticed the tracks there in one little spot.

Mr. STERN. When you first came around, that was quite soon after the shots were fired?

Mr. HOLLAND. Yes.

Mr. STERN. And did you notice anything about this station wagon?

Mr. HOLLAND. I was in front of the cars, then I went in front of the cars.

Mr. STERN. In front of the cars----

Mr. HOLLAND. The cars they were parked pretty close to the fence, and I came up in front of the cars and got over to the fence and then walked back down looking around, just like the rest of them.

Mr. STERN. And that was later you came behind the station wagon?

Mr. HOLLAND. Oh, maybe 3 or 4 minutes after I got up there, and 3 or 4 minutes after I got up to the end of the fence.

Mr. STERN. This number of cars, this is an area in which cars are regularly parked?

Mr. HOLLAND. Yes.

Mr. STERN. A parking area for the School Book Depository?

Mr. HOLLAND. No; it is a parking area for the sheriff's department and people over to the courthouse. They park in there.

Mr. STERN. I see.

Mr. HOLLAND. Sheriff's department parks in there. District attorneys' cars park in there. It is railroad property, but they let them park in there and save that 25 cents. Don't put that down. Might get in trouble.

Now, do you want to know about the two policemen that were riding in that motorcade and one of them throwed the motorcycle down right in the middle of the street and run up towards that location with his gun in his hand.

Mr. STERN. Toward----

Mr. HOLLAND. The location that----

Mr. STERN. Where you saw the puff of smoke?

Mr. HOLLAND. Where I saw the puff of smoke. And another one tried to ride up the hill on his motorcycle and got about halfway up there and he run up the rest of the way on foot.

Mr. STERN. Go ahead. This is at the time of the----

Mr. HOLLAND. At the time of the----

Mr. STERN. That the shots were fired?

Mr. HOLLAND. The shots was fired.

Mr. STERN. Two motorcycle policemen who were in the motorcade?

Mr. HOLLAND. In the motorcade, and one of them throwed his motorcycle down right in the middle of the street and ran up the incline with his pistol in his hand, and the other motorcycle policeman jumped over the curb with his motorcycle and tried to ride up the hill on his motorcycle, and he--tipped over with him up there, and he ran up there the rest of the way with his----

Mr. STERN. Did you see anything further involving those two?

Mr. HOLLAND. No; I ran around, I was going around the corner of the fence.

Mr. STERN. When they were coming up the incline?

Mr. HOLLAND. When that happened.

Mr. STERN. But, nothing further came of that, that you observed?

Mr. HOLLAND. No.

Mr. STERN. Did you talk to them?

Mr. HOLLAND. No.

Mr. STERN. Anything else occur to you?

Mr. HOLLAND. No; that is about all of it. If I have been of any help, I am tickled.

Mr. STERN. You certainly have. I appreciate very much your coming here today. Our reporter, Mr. Holland, will transcribe your testimony, and you then have the opportunity of reviewing it and signing it, or if you prefer you can waive your signature and she will send it directly to the Commission. Either one, it is entirely up to you, whichever you prefer.

Mr. MORRISON. I prefer that he read it and sign it.

Mr. STERN. Fine. Then the reporter will get in touch with you as soon as his transcript is ready to read.

Mr. MORRISON. I would like to say--now, you will cooperate with the authorities in any way?

Mr. HOLLAND. I surely will.

Mr. MORRISON. To clear this up?

Mr. HOLLAND. I sure will.

Mr. MORRISON. And you and have--you and I have been close personal friends for over 10 years, haven't we?

Mr. HOLLAND. That's right.

Mr. MORRISON. And you wanted me to come down here because you thought you would be nervous, and if I were with you maybe you would be less nervous?

Mr. HOLLAND. That's correct, because I was real nervous when I went over to that sheriff's office that afternoon.

Mr. MORRISON. I believe that is all.

Mr. STERN. Thank you.

TESTIMONY OF J. W. FOSTER

The testimony of J. W. Foster was taken at 1:30 a.m., on April 9, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets. Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BALL. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before this Commission shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. FOSTER. I do.

Mr. BALL. Mr. Foster, we have requested Chief Curry to have you come in and testify in this matter before the Commission. This Commission was established to investigate the facts and circumstances surrounding the assassination of President Kennedy.

Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And my name is Joseph A. Ball. I am a staff officer, staff counsel with the Commission. I would like to ask you some questions about this matter. You are willing to testify, aren't you?

Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Will you state your address?

Mr. FOSTER. 309 Cooper Street. I just moved.

Mr. BALL. What is your occupation?

Mr. FOSTER. I am a police officer.

Mr. BALL. Dallas Police Department?

Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Patrolman?

Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. How long have you been on the police department?

Mr. FOSTER. Nine years.

Mr. BALL. Where were you born and raised?

Mr. FOSTER. In Hill County, town of Hillsboro.

Mr. BALL. What was your education?

Mr. FOSTER. Well----

Mr. BALL. Where did you go to school?

Mr. FOSTER. Hillsboro.

Mr. BALL. How far through school?

Mr. FOSTER. Ninth grade.

Mr. BALL. What did you do after that?

Mr. FOSTER. Service.

Mr. BALL. What branch? In the Army or Navy----

Mr. FOSTER. Army.

Mr. BALL. Then what did you do?

Mr. FOSTER. Carpenter, worked for about 9 years.

Mr. BALL. Then what did you do?

Mr. FOSTER. Come to work here.

Mr. BALL. On the police department?

Mr. FOSTER. Yes.

Mr. BALL. What kind of work were you doing in November of 1963, for the Dallas Police Department?

Mr. FOSTER. I was working in the traffic division, investigation of accidents.

Mr. BALL. Investigation of accidents?

Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you have a special assignment on November 22?

Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. 1963. And what was that?

Mr. FOSTER. That was assigned to the triple overpass to keep all unauthorized personnel off of it.

Mr. BALL. That was the overpass, the railroad overpass?

Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Do you--the overpass runs in a north-south direction?

Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And you call it the triple overpass, why?

Mr. FOSTER. Three streets coming through there.

Mr. BALL. What are they?

Mr. FOSTER. Commerce, Main, and Elm.

Mr. BALL. I have a map that I will--just a moment. I will get it.

Mr. FOSTER. All right.

(Off the record.)

Mr. BALL. Tell me where you were standing on the triple overpass about the time that the President's motorcade came into sight?

Mr. FOSTER. I was standing approximately along the--I believe the south curb of Elm Street.

Mr. BALL. Were you on the overpass?

Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir; at the east--be the east side of the overpass.

Mr. BALL. On the east side of the overpass?

Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Then was there another officer assigned to that same position?

Mr. FOSTER. He was assigned to the overpass with me; yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What is his name?

Mr. FOSTER. J. C. White.

Mr. BALL. Where was he?

Mr. FOSTER. He was on the west side of the overpass.

Mr. BALL. You were on the east side?

Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. He was on the west side?

Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. BALL. Let's go back on the record. Now, we have a map here which we will mark as Exhibit A for your deposition.

Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And it shows the railroad overpass running in a north and south direction, is that right?

Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Over that pass come trains into the yard, is that right?

Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And that yard is to the north and west of the Texas Book Depository Building?

Mr. FOSTER. Well, that whole thing, they have yards all over up there.

Mr. BALL. In what general direction from the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mr. FOSTER. They have yards to the north, and some to the south of it down below the Terminal.

Mr. BALL. There are yards south?

Mr. FOSTER. They have yards here [indicating].

Mr. BALL. That is north and west?

Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And also south?

Mr. FOSTER. That's right.

Mr. BALL. Now, did you see the President's motorcade come into sight?

Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Where did you see it? Where was it when you saw it?

Mr. FOSTER. When I first saw it it was coming off of Main Street onto Houston.

Mr. BALL. And did you keep it in sight?

Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir; it was in sight most of the time.

Mr. BALL. Now, where were you standing?

Mr. FOSTER. Standing along the east curb of--east side of the overpass over Elm Street there. About the south curb.

Mr. BALL. Over, above the south curb of Elm?

Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Will you put a mark on there? Mark an "X" where you were standing and write your initials right next to that "X".

J.--what are the initials?

Mr. FOSTER. J. W.

Mr. BALL. J. W. F. That marks where you were standing.

Mr. FOSTER. Approximately; yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you keep the President's motorcade in sight after it turned?

Mr. FOSTER. Other than watching the men that were standing on the overpass there with me.

Mr. BALL. Now, you had instructions to keep all unauthorized personnel off of that overpass?

Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you do that?

Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you permit some people to be there?

Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Who?

Mr. FOSTER. People that were working for the railroad there.

Mr. BALL. Were there many people?

Mr. FOSTER. About 10 or 11.

Mr. BALL. Where were they standing?

Mr. FOSTER. They were standing along the east banister.

Mr. BALL. The east banister?

Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir; in front of me.

Mr. BALL. In front of you. Will you make a mark there and show the general area where they were standing?

Mr. FOSTER. They were standing along this area here [indicating].

Mr. BALL. You have marked a series of X's to show where about 10 people were standing?

Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Were you looking toward them?

Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you have another officer with you there on that duty that day?

Mr. FOSTER. Not on that side. He was on the west side.

Mr. BALL. He was on the west side?

Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What was his name?

Mr. FOSTER. J. C. White.

Mr. BALL. Do you know exactly where he was when you were at the position you have indicated?

Mr. FOSTER. No; I don't. The only thing I know, he was supposed to be on the west side of the banister.

Mr. BALL. You were looking to the east?

Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, tell me what you saw happen after the President's car passed--turned onto Elm from Houston.

Mr. FOSTER. After he came onto Elm I was watching the men up on the track more than I was him. Then I heard a loud noise, sound like a large firecracker. Kind of dumbfounded at first, and then heard the second one. I moved to the banister of the overpass to see what was happening. Then the third explosion, and they were beginning to move around. I ran after I saw what was happening.

Mr. BALL. What did you see was happening?

Mr. FOSTER. Saw the President slump over in the car, and his head looked just like it blew up.

Mr. BALL. You saw that, did you?

Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And what did you do then?

Mr. FOSTER. Well, at that time I broke and ran around to my right--to the left--around to the bookstore.

Mr. BALL. Now, did you have any opinion at that time as to the source of the sounds, the direction of the sounds?

Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What?

Mr. FOSTER. It came from back in toward the corner of Elm and Houston Streets.

Mr. BALL. That was your impression at that time?

Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Was any shot fired from the overpass?

Mr. FOSTER. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you see anyone with a weapon there?

Mr. FOSTER. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Or did you hear any sound that appeared to come from the overpass?

Mr. FOSTER. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Where did you go from there?

Mr. FOSTER. Went on around the back side of the bookstore.

Mr. BALL. Immediately?

Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you see anybody coming out of that side of the bookstore?

Mr. FOSTER. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Backside? What do you mean by that?

Mr. FOSTER. Well, I guess you would say the northwest side of it.

Mr. BALL. Were there any people in the railroad yards around the bookstore at that time?

Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir. There was a pretty good crowd beginning to gather back in that area.

Mr. BALL. At that time?

Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Had you seen anybody over at the railroad yard north and west of the bookstore before you heard the shots fired?

Mr. FOSTER. No; other than people that had come up there and I sent them back down the roadway.

Mr. BALL. I see. People had attempted to get on the overpass there?

Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And you had sent them away?

Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. When you got over to the School Book Depository Building, what did you do?

Mr. FOSTER. I was standing around in back there to see that no one came out, and the sergeant came and got me and we were going to check the--all the railroad cars down there.

Mr. BALL. Who was that sergeant?

Mr. FOSTER. Sergeant came up there.

Mr. BALL. Did you search the railroad cars?

Mr. FOSTER. No; he sent me back down to the inspector. Told me to report back to Inspector Sawyer.

Mr. BALL. Where?

Mr. FOSTER. At the front of the Book Depository.

Mr. BALL. Did you talk to Sawyer there?

Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you tell your sergeant or Sawyer, either one where you thought the shots came from?

Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What did you then tell them?

Mr. FOSTER. Told them it came from that vicinity up around Elm and Houston.

Mr. BALL. Did you tell the sergeant that first, or did you tell that to Sawyer?

Mr. FOSTER. Told that to Inspector Sawyer.

Mr. BALL. You told that to Sawyer?

Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you tell that to the sergeant?

Mr. FOSTER. I don't know whether I told the sergeant that or not.

Mr. BALL. What did you do after that?

Mr. FOSTER. I moved to--down the roadway there, down to see if I could find where any of the shots hit.

Mr. BALL. Find anything?

Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir. Found where one shot had hit the turf there at the location.

Mr. BALL. Hit the turf?

Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you see any marks on the street in any place?

Mr. FOSTER. No, a manhole cover. It was hit. They caught the manhole cover right at the corner and----

Mr. BALL. You saw a mark on a manhole cover did you?

Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. I show you a picture here of a concrete slab, or manhole cover. Do you recognize that picture?

Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Does the picture show--tell me what it shows there.

Mr. FOSTER. This looks like the corner here where it penetrated the turf right here [indicating].

Mr. BALL. See any mark on the manhole cover?

Mr. FOSTER. No, sir; I don't. Not on the--well, it is on the turf, on the concrete, right in the corner.

Mr. BALL. Can you put an arrow showing the approximate place you saw that?

Mr. FOSTER. Should have been approximately along here [indicating].

Mr. BALL. Make it deep enough to make a mark. The arrow marks the position that you believe you saw a mark on the pavement?

Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. It was not on the manhole cover?

Mr. FOSTER. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Went into the turf?

Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you recover any bullet?

Mr. FOSTER. No, sir. It ricocheted on out.

Mr. BALL. Did you have the crime lab make a picture of that spot?

Mr. FOSTER. I called them to the location.

Mr. BALL. And told them to make a picture?

Mr. FOSTER. No, I didn't tell them. Called them to the spot and let them take it. Can I see the picture?

Mr. BALL. Yes, sir. Is this the picture?

Mr. FOSTER. That resembles the picture.

Mr. BALL. I offer this as "B," then. Mark it as "B" so that we have "A" and "B" now.

Officer, this will be written up and submitted to you for your signature and you can read it over and change it any way you wish, or you may waive your signature at this time, which do you prefer?

Mr. FOSTER. Well, it doesn't matter.

Mr. BALL. Suit yourself. You make the choice.

Mr. FOSTER. I would just as soon go ahead and sign it.

Mr. BALL. All right. We will notify you and you can get in here and sign it.

Mr. FOSTER. All right.

Mr. BALL. Thank you. One moment, please.

Who gave you your assignment, Mr. Foster?

Mr. FOSTER. Sergeant Harkness.

Mr. BALL. You did permit some railroad employees to remain on the overpass?

Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. How did you determine they were railroad employees?

Mr. FOSTER. By identification they had with them. Identification they had and the other men that was with them verifying that they were employees.

Mr. BALL. Okay.

TESTIMONY OF J. C. WHITE

The testimony of J. C. White was taken at 11:45 a.m., on April 9, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BALL. All right, will you stand up and be sworn.

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give shall be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. WHITE. I do.

Mr. BALL. All right.

Mr. BALL. Will you state your name, please.

Mr. WHITE. J. C. White.

Mr. BALL. What is your residence?

Mr. WHITE. 2303 Klondite.

Mr. BALL. And your occupation?

Mr. WHITE. Policeman.

Mr. BALL. Did you receive a letter from the Commission?

Mr. WHITE. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. For a request to----

Mr. WHITE. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. You were asked to come here by your----

Mr. WHITE. Captain.

Mr. BALL. Which captain?

Mr. WHITE. Lawrence.

Mr. BALL. Now, the Commission was established to investigate the facts and circumstances surrounding the assassination of President Kennedy. We want to ask you some questions about information that you might have that might aid us in that investigation.

I am a Staff officer of the Commission named Ball. Joseph A. Ball. I am authorized to administer the oath to you, to make this inquiry. During the course of our investigation in Dallas we discovered that you and the man that you were working with that day, Mr. J. W. Foster, knew of some facts that might aid us in the investigation. We asked Chief Curry if we could have you come up here and testify, and I guess that is the reason you are here.

You are willing to testify, are you not?

Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Tell us whatever you know about it.

Mr. WHITE. I don't know.

Mr. BALL. Well, I can ask you.

Mr. WHITE. Okay.

Mr. BALL. I will ask you questions. Where were you born?

Mr. WHITE. Van Alstyne, Tex.

Mr. BALL. Where did you go to school?

Mr. WHITE. Van Alystyne, Tex.

Mr. BALL. How far through school?

Mr. WHITE. Ninth grade there.

Mr. BALL. Then what did you do?

Mr. WHITE. I went into the Army.

Mr. BALL. And how long were you in the Army?

Mr. WHITE. About 3 years.

Mr. BALL. And what did you do?

Mr. WHITE. Went to driving a city bus.

Mr. BALL. How long did you drive a city bus?

Mr. WHITE. 6 years.

Mr. BALL. Then what did you do?

Mr. WHITE. Joined the Police Department.

Mr. BALL. How long ago?

Mr. WHITE. 1956.

Mr. BALL. And what are you now?

Mr. WHITE. Accident investigator.

Mr. BALL. And your rank is a patrolman?

Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, on November 22, 1963, did you have an assignment?

Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Where?

Mr. WHITE. On the triple underpass.

Mr. BALL. And were you there with someone?

Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Who?

Mr. WHITE. J. W. Foster.

Mr. BALL. Where were you?

Mr. WHITE. Standing on the west side of the overpass.

Mr. BALL. On the west side of the overpass?

Mr. WHITE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Where were you with reference to Elm, Main or Commerce as they go underneath the overpass?

Mr. WHITE. Approximately at the north curb of Main Street.

Mr. BALL. Approximately the north curb of Main on the corner of the north curb of Main? That would be----

Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. On the west side of the overpass?

Mr. WHITE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. I'm going to get another copy of this map. Let me see. I can use this. Mark this as Exhibit A to your deposition. Now, a diagram that was drawn by a patrolman, Joe Murphy, and he has made some marks and other witnesses have, but don't pay any attention to that. I want you to look at this drawing and take a pen and mark your position on the railroad overpass in a circle, and put your initials beside it.

You have made an "X".

Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And you have initialed J. C. White, is that right?

Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Over the--what would be the west curb of Main?

Mr. WHITE. North curb of Main.

Mr. BALL. The north curb?

Mr. WHITE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. North curb of Main?

Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And west side of the overpass?

Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Is there a rail there?

Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. How many people were on that overpass that day?

Mr. WHITE. On the same side I was on?

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mr. WHITE. None.

Mr. BALL. None? Any people attempt to come up on the overpass around noon?