Part 35

Mr. BROWN. Well, I stayed on the farm until 1939, then I moved to Ohio; Lima, Ohio. I was inducted into the Army and was in there 4 years, 5 months, discharged 1945, August 15, and I was here in Dallas actually when I was discharged and then back to Ohio for about 4 years. Then, let's see, that would be August of 1949, we came back to Dallas and then February 27, 1950, I joined the police force.

Mr. BALL. Now, you are a patrolman, aren't you?

Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1964, were you assigned to a certain post on duty?

Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Where?

Mr. BROWN. That would be the railroad overpass over Stemmons Expressway service road.

Mr. BALL. Is that the one that leads off Elm?

Mr. BROWN. You mean that crosses Elm?

Mr. BALL. That crosses Elm, yes; the overpass across Elm.

Mr. BROWN. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. What does it cross?

Mr. BROWN. It's over Stemmons Expressway; in other words, they make that turn off Elm and go up.

Mr. BALL. You know where Elm, the corner of Elm and Houston is?

Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Then there is a road, the highway continues on to the west, a little south, is that what you call the Stemmons Expressway?

Mr. BROWN. There's one there, too, but that overpass is actually a road. Where I was was the railroad overpass.

Mr. BALL. The railroad overpass itself?

Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. How far were you from the place where the continuation of Elm goes under the overpass?

Mr. BROWN. Oh, approximately 100 yards.

Mr. BALL. Let me see if we can get something in the record that will be your position. You were appointed to this particular spot?

Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Was there another patrolman on the overpass also?

Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir; James Lomax.

Mr. BALL. Now, this is the place where the railroad yards run over the highway?

Mr. BROWN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And you are on the Stemmons Freeway end of it?

Mr. BROWN. That's right; in other words, Stemmons Freeway and the service road both go under the underpass.

Mr. BALL. What is his name?

Mr. BROWN. James Lomax.

Mr. BALL. How far were you from the point where Elm Street goes under the underpass?

Mr. BROWN. I would say approximately 100 yards.

Mr. BALL. Approximately 100 yards in what direction?

Mr. BROWN. That would be--wouldn't be straight east, but it would be to easterly, kind of off at an angle--I would say about from us about a 20° angle to the right.

Mr. BALL. You would be east or west?

Mr. BROWN. We would be to the southwest of that.

Mr. BALL. You would be to the southwest of that?

Mr. BROWN. Yes, I would say that's about right.

Mr. BALL. Did you have the corner of Houston and Elm Street in sight from where you were located?

Mr. BROWN. Actually, we could see cars moving there, you know, coming and making the turn, but the intersection, that would be about all we probably could see would be cars.

Mr. BALL. Could you see cars going down after they made the turn and going down toward the underpass south?

Mr. BROWN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. You could see those?

Mr. BROWN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did you have any instructions when you were assigned to this location?

Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What were they?

Mr. BROWN. Not allow anyone on the overpass whatever and walk forward and make both ends--in other words, check both ends of the overpass.

Mr. BALL. That was you and Mr. Lomax?

Mr. BROWN. That's right.

Mr. BALL. Was there an E. V. Brown?

Mr. BROWN. That's me.

Mr. BALL. That's you, and was there also a Joe Murphy?

Mr. BROWN. Joe Murphy is a three-wheeler.

Mr. BALL. Yes; where was he?

Mr. BROWN. I don't know, sir; he was, I believe he was on his three-wheeler.

Mr. BALL. On his motor?

Mr. BROWN. I believe; I wouldn't say for sure but I don't know.

Mr. BALL. Did you people keep people off the overpass?

Mr. BROWN. We made no contact with anyone except one of the railroad detectives come up there and talked to us.

Mr. BALL. Did you keep the underpass free of people?

Mr. BROWN. Underneath?

Mr. BALL. No; up above.

Mr. BROWN. Up above; yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What about underneath?

Mr. BROWN. Well, that was roadway there; people wouldn't be able to walk.

Mr. BALL. On the top of the overpass you kept that free of people?

Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you have the railroad yards in sight?

Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. They would be what direction from where you were standing?

Mr. BROWN. That would be east; that would be east of us.

Mr. BALL. East, maybe a little north?

Mr. BROWN. Yes, the whole thing kind of in that general direction, you know.

Mr. BALL. Did you see any people over in the railroad yards?

Mr. BROWN. Not that I recall; now they were moving trains in and out.

Mr. BALL. But you did not see people standing?

Mr. BROWN. No, sir; sure didn't.

Mr. BALL. Everything was in clear view?

Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. I withdraw the question. Was there any obstruction of your vision to the railroad yards?

Mr. BROWN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. What?

Mr. BROWN. Not the direction of the railroad yard, but at ground level we didn't have very good view. Mr. Lomax and I remarked that we didn't have a very good view.

Mr. BALL. Was that because of the moving trains?

Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you see the President's motorcade come on to Houston Street from Elm; were you able to see that?

Mr. BROWN. Now they came down Main, didn't they, to Houston?

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mr. BROWN. No, sir; actually, the first I noticed the car was when it stopped.

Mr. BALL. Where?

Mr. BROWN. After it made the turn and when the shots were fired, it stopped.

Mr. BALL. Did it come to a complete stop?

Mr. BROWN. That, I couldn't swear to.

Mr. BALL. It appeared to be slowed down some?

Mr. BROWN. Yes; slowed down.

Mr. BALL. Did you hear the shots?

Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. How many?

Mr. BROWN. Three.

Mr. BALL. Where did they seem to come from?

Mr. BROWN. Well, they seemed high to me, actually; if you want, would you like me to tell you?

Mr. BALL. Sure, tell it in your own words.

Mr. BROWN. Well, down in that river bottom there, there's a whole lot of pigeons this particular day, and they heard the shots before we did because I saw them flying up--must have been 50, 75 of them.

Mr. BALL. Where was the river bottom?

Mr. BROWN. You know, actually off to the--between us and the, this overpass you are talking about there's kind of a levee along there. It's really a grade of the railroad, is what it is; that's where they were and then I heard these shots and then I smelled this gun powder.

Mr. BALL. You did?

Mr. BROWN. It come on it would be maybe a couple minutes later so--at least it smelled like it to me.

Mr. BALL. What direction did the sound seem to come from?

Mr. BROWN. It came it seemed the direction of that building, that Texas----

Mr. BALL. School Book Depository?

Mr. BROWN. School Book Depository.

Mr. BALL. Did you see any pigeons flying around the building?

Mr. BROWN. I just don't recall that; no, sir.

Mr. BALL. Which way did you look when you heard the sound?

Mr. BROWN. When I first heard that sound I looked up toward that building because actually it seemed to come from there.

Mr. BALL. Where was it you saw the pigeons rise?

Mr. BROWN. They must have been down there feeding at that time because they just seemed to all take off.

Mr. BALL. Where were they from where you were standing?

Mr. BROWN. From where I was standing they would be about half way between--no, they would be up more toward that other overpass, what they call the triple underpass.

Mr. BALL. The triple underpass?

Mr. BROWN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. You were about 100 yards from the triple underpass?

Mr. BROWN. Approximately; yes.

Mr. BALL. Was there anybody standing on the triple underpass?

Mr. BROWN. On the triple underpass?

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir; they had at least two officers.

Mr. BALL. Anybody but police officers?

Mr. BROWN. Not that I know of. I didn't recall anyone.

Mr. BALL. What did you do after you heard the shots?

Mr. BROWN. Well, let me see, by that time the escort as to the motorcycles, we could see them coming, the front part of the motorcade, I don't think they probably realized what happened; they had come on ahead. And then we saw the car coming with the President, and as it passed underneath me I looked right down and I could see this officer in the back; he had this gun and he was swinging it around, looked like a machinegun, and the President was all sprawled out, his foot on the back cushion. Of course, you couldn't conceive anything that happened; of course, we knew something had happened, but we couldn't conceive the fact it did.

Mr. BALL. Did you move out of there in any direction?

Mr. BROWN. No, sir; we, well, we checked there; the area, we kept checking that area through there and, of course, there were people all over the place but we didn't allow anybody up on the railroad right-of-way through there.

Mr. BALL. Was there anybody standing on the triple underpass at the point where Elm goes underneath?

Mr. BROWN. Uh-uh, I couldn't recall; no one except police officers.

Mr. BALL. More than one?

Mr. BROWN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did you search any part of the area?

Mr. BROWN. We were instructed to stay at our posts, which we did, and later we got instructions to check the area around the Depository, Book Depository Building, and to obtain the license numbers of all those cars parked around there, which we did.

Mr. BALL. Where were any cars parked?

Mr. BROWN. Well, there's a parking lot around that building and there was several cars parked all around that building.

Mr. BALL. You took the license numbers?

Mr. BROWN. Yes; in fact, I think there must have been four or five officers taking license numbers.

Mr. BALL. How long were you around there?

Mr. BROWN. Well, we stayed and then they sent us back to the overpass and we stayed there until, let's see, I don't believe we left there until about 3:30 or 4 in the afternoon, and then we came up to the hall and Mr. Sorrels, I believe talked to us.

Mr. BALL. I think that's all, officer. This will be written up and you can take it, read it, and sign it if you wish, or you can waive your signature, just as you wish. Which do you wish?

Mr. BROWN. You mean today?

Mr. BALL. No; it will be a week or so.

Mr. BROWN. Oh, yes.

Mr. BALL. Which do you prefer?

Mr. BROWN. What preference do I have?

Mr. BALL. Well, it will be written up and you can come in and sign it----

Mr. BROWN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Or you can waive signature and you don't need to come in and sign it. It is your option; you can do either way.

Mr. BROWN. I will be glad to come in and sign it.

Mr. BALL. She will notify you. Thanks very much.

TESTIMONY OF EARLE V. BROWN RESUMED

The testimony of Earle V. Brown was taken at 2:15 p.m., on April 8, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BALL. You have been sworn, so we will just continue with your deposition, and your name is Earle V. Brown?

Mr. BROWN. Right; E-a-r-l-e (spelling).

Mr. BALL. Mr. Brown, I have had a map made here which I would like to have you inspect here. The railroad overpass is shown--that runs in a north and south direction?

Mr. BROWN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And Stemmons Freeway overpass is shown--that runs north and south, doesn't it?

Mr. BROWN. Right.

Mr. BALL. Were you on either one of those overpasses?

Mr. BROWN. Either one of those two there?

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mr. BROWN. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Where were you?

Mr. BROWN. On this overpass here--this TP Railroad overpass.

Mr. BALL. The overpass that runs in an east and west direction?

Mr. BROWN. Right--yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, will you take this pen and draw on there your position on the overpass?

Mr. BROWN. Well, you see, on this overpass, of course, there are the tracks and then there is a railing and then there is a catwalk on each side and we walked the catwalk, and we would come around on each end and we would walk the tracks and come around there.

Mr. BALL. Where were you when you saw the President's car turn on Houston and Elm Street?

Mr. BROWN. I was on the catwalk.

Mr. BALL. Can you mark your position?

Mr. BROWN. I would be--approximately in the center. (Instrument marked by the witness, as requested by Counsel Ball.)

Mr. BALL. Have you marked the place where you were?

Mr. BROWN. Yes; it would be about the center of that.

Mr. BALL. Is that where you were when you heard the shots?

Mr. BROWN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And did you see anybody out on the railroad overpass?

Mr. BROWN. No, sir; I didn't see anybody there.

Mr. BALL. You don't recall seeing anybody that would either be where Elm goes under the overpass or where Main goes under the overpass--you don't recall seeing anybody?

Mr. BROWN. No; I don't recall seeing anyone there.

Mr. BALL. You told me yesterday you saw some officers.

Mr. BROWN. Well, that would be the police officers--would be the only ones I saw.

Mr. BALL. Do you know who those officers were?

Mr. BROWN. No, sir; at the time I did, but I wouldn't know now.

Mr. BALL. Did you see any officer on Stemmons Freeway where we have positioned (1), (2), and (3) on this diagram?

Mr. BROWN. No, I didn't.

Mr. BALL. Now, the place where you marked your location--we will mark that as Brown Exhibits--the X marks the position of Brown, is that correct?

Mr. BROWN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. That's all. Thank you very much.

Mr. BROWN. All right. (Instrument marked by the reporter as "Brown Exhibit A," for identification.)

Mr. BALL. Thank you very much for coming.

Mr. BROWN. All right.

TESTIMONY OF ROYCE G. SKELTON

The testimony of Royce G. Skelton was taken at 2:45 p.m., on April 8, 1964, in the office of U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BALL. Will you raise your right hand and be sworn?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before the Commission will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth?

Mr. SKELTON. I do.

Mr. BALL. Will you state your name, please, for the record?

Mr. SKELTON. Royce G. Skelton.

Mr. BALL. What is your business?

Mr. SKELTON. I am a mail clerk at the Texas Louisiana Freight Bureau.

Mr. BALL. Where do you work?

Mr. SKELTON. At the Texas Louisiana Freight Bureau.

Mr. BALL. Where were you born and where did you come from?

Mr. SKELTON. I was born in Henrietta, Tex., May 25, 1940.

Mr. BALL. And where did you go to school?

Mr. SKELTON. I attended all grade schools in Wichita Falls and I graduated from Wichita Falls High School.

Mr. BALL. Tell me where you went to school.

Mr. SKELTON. Wichita Falls through high school and I attended 1 year at Midwestern University.

Mr. BALL. And when did you go to work for the railroad?

Mr. SKELTON. February 1, 1963.

Mr. BALL. What kind of work do you do?

Mr. SKELTON. Mail clerk.

Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1963, did you watch the parade, the motorcade of the President?

Mr. SKELTON. Yes, sir; I went to the triple overpass about 12:20--I think it was 12:15, or something like that.

Mr. BALL. Whom did you go down there with?

Mr. SKELTON. Austin Miller and myself.

Mr. BALL. Where does he work?

Mr. SKELTON. He is a mail clerk also in the same company.

Mr. BALL. Where did you stand to watch the parade?

Mr. SKELTON. Well, we were directly over Elm Street.

Mr. BALL. Directly over Elm?

Mr. SKELTON. Maybe it would be to the left-hand side, if you were on the street.

Mr. BALL. Anybody else there on the overpass?

Mr. SKELTON. There were quite a few people up there.

Mr. BALL. Did you know any of them?

Mr. SKELTON. Well, I know by sight--I knew the electrician, an old man that's an electrician.

Mr. BALL. Frank Reilly?

Mr. SKELTON. Is that his name?

Mr. BALL. The man that was here a moment ago--his name is Reilly.

Mr. SKELTON. I know him when I see him.

Mr. BALL. Yes----

Mr. SKELTON. And Austin Miller, of course.

Mr. BALL. Did you know Dodd, the employee of the railroad?

Mr. SKELTON. No, sir; like I say, I recognized them off and on when I see them around there.

Mr. BALL. Did you see any police officers there?

Mr. SKELTON. Yes; this man right here--they say it was him--I don't recall whether it was or not.

Mr. BALL. Who--Mr. Brown?

Mr. SKELTON. The one who was in here just a while ago--they say he was the one up there, but I don't know.

Mr. BALL. You didn't recognize him there?

Mr. SKELTON. No; I didn't recognize him.

Mr. BALL. In other words, you saw some police officers up there?

Mr. SKELTON. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Where were they standing?

Mr. SKELTON. There was one standing directly behind me, I think, or in the general vicinity, and there was one on the far side of the triple underpass.

Mr. BALL. By "far side," you mean where?

Mr. SKELTON. It would be back on this side.

Mr. BALL. It would be south?

Mr. SKELTON. No, sir; that would be the east side--isn't it?

Mr. BALL. Elm runs east and west.

Mr. SKELTON. It would be the west side.

Mr. BALL. It would be west?

Mr. SKELTON. Yes, sir; and then there was one back over here on Stemmons--I noticed one, at least, over there and one on the railroad overpass on Stemmons.

Mr. BALL. How many police officers were on this overpass, the railroad overpass?

Mr. SKELTON. Two, I would say, sir. That's all I saw.

Mr. BALL. And how many men did you see standing right near on the railroad overpass over Elm, just approximately?

Mr. SKELTON. Eight, including the officer--eight or nine.

Mr. BALL. Did you see the President's car turn on Elm Street?

Mr. SKELTON. Yes, sir; I saw the car carrying the Presidential flag turn.

Mr. BALL. And did you hear something soon after that?

Mr. SKELTON. Just about the same time the car straightened up--got around the corner--I heard two shots, but I didn't know at that time they were shots.

Mr. BALL. Where did they seem to come from?

Mr. SKELTON. Well, I couldn't tell then, they were still so far from where I was.

Mr. BALL. Did the shots sound like they came from where you were standing?

Mr. SKELTON. No, sir; definitely not. It sounded like they were right there--more or less like motorcycle backfire, but I thought that they were these dumbballs that they throw at the cement because I could see the smoke coming up off the cement.

Mr. BALL. You saw some smoke come off of the cement?

Mr. SKELTON. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Where did it seem to you that the sound came from, what direction?

Mr. SKELTON. Towards the President's car.

Mr. BALL. From the President's car?

Mr. SKELTON. Right around the motorcycles and all that--I couldn't distinguish because it was too far away.

Mr. BALL. How long did you stand there?

Mr. SKELTON. I stood there from about 12:15 until the time the President was shot.

Mr. BALL. How many shots did you hear?

Mr. SKELTON. I think I heard four--I mean--I couldn't be sure.

Mr. BALL. You think you heard four?

Mr. SKELTON. Yes.

Mr. BALL. How long did you stay there after you heard the fourth shot?

Mr. SKELTON. Not very long--just as soon as the cars sped away and everything was in a big commotion--we ran down to listen to the radio. We couldn't get anything off of that--we heard that the President had been shot and so we went back up there and the police officer asked us if we had seen the assassination and we told him we had. He said he would like to get a statement from us, so he took us over to the sheriff's office.

Mr. BALL. Did you see any pigeons flying or anything like that?

Mr. SKELTON. No, sir; I didn't see anything like that--any pigeons at all.

Mr. BALL. I think that's all I have. This will be written up and submitted to you for your signature, if you want to sign it, or you can waive your signature.

Which do you want to do?

Mr. SKELTON. I will waive my signature. I am sure it is all right.

Mr. BALL. That is fine. Thank you very much.

Mr. SKELTON. There's one thing I could say--you have that other report?

Mr. BALL. What is that?

Mr. SKELTON. About when I saw one of the bullets where it hit on the pavement and it hit, the smoke did come from the general vicinity of where you say Oswald was.

Mr. BALL. Wait a minute--let me ask you some questions about that.

Tell me, now, about the smoke--did you see some smoke?

Mr. SKELTON. After those two shots, and the car came on down closer to the triple underpass, well, there was another shot--two more shots I heard, but one of them--I saw a bullet, or I guess it was a bullet--I take for granted it was--hit in the left front of the President's car on the cement, and when it did, the smoke carried with it--away from the building.

Mr. BALL. You mean there was some smoke in the building?

Mr. SKELTON. No; on the pavement--you know, pavement when it is hit with a hard object it will scatter--it will spread.

Mr. BALL. Which way did it spread?

Mr. SKELTON. It spread just right in line, like you said.

Mr. BALL. I haven't said anything--tell me what you think it was?

Mr. SKELTON. Like I said--south of us--it would be southwest, you know, in a direct line from the Texas Depository.

Mr. BALL. I see. In other words, the spray seemed to go to the west; is that right?

Mr. SKELTON. Yes.

Mr. BALL. All right. Thanks very much.

I'm going to get you to mark one of these maps and show where you were standing. Here is Elm and here is the railroad underpass and pay no attention to the diagrams, but show me about where you were standing.

Mr. SKELTON. I was about right there (marked instrument referred to as requested by Counsel Ball).

Mr. BALL. By that "X" we will put the word "Skelton" and that is where you were standing with your friend?

Mr. SKELTON. Approximately--yes.

Mr. BALL. Now, did you see any smoke or anything from any place around there?

Mr. SKELTON. No, sir; I just stated to your secretary that I heard people say they did, but I didn't.

Mr. BALL. But you did see something light on the street?

Mr. SKELTON. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. About where?

Mr. SKELTON. A bullet--let's see--this is kind of out of proportion [referring to diagram], and I would say the bullet hit about right here [indicating on diagram].

Mr. BALL. Then, let's mark that as "Skelton (2)" and we will make the first Skelton number (1) and then Skelton number (2), and this X mark here is where you saw the bullet and which way did the spray go?

Mr. SKELTON. Just like it was going there.

Mr. BALL. Mark an arrow showing the direction that you think the spray was going.

Mr. SKELTON. (Marks the diagram with arrow.)

Mr. BALL. That's fine, and we will make that as an exhibit Shelton exhibit A and attach it to your deposition.

(Instrument marked by the reporter as Skelton exhibit A for identification)

Mr. BALL. Thank you and that is all.

Mr. SKELTON. Thank you.

TESTIMONY OF S. M. HOLLAND

The testimony of S. M Holland was taken at 2:20 p.m., on April 8, 1964 in the Office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Samuel A. Stern, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Mr. S M Holland was accompanied by his attorney, Mr. Balford Morrison.

Mr. STERN. Would you rise please and raise your right hand so as to be sworn.

Do you solemnly swear the testimony that you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. HOLLAND. I do.

Mr. STERN. Sit down, please.

You have recorded Mr. Morrison's presence?

The Reporter. Yes.

Mr. STERN. Mr Holland, you have received a letter from the Commission asking you to come and testify today?

Mr. HOLLAND. Yes.