Part 34

Mr. SPECTER. Well, let me say, as to the best of my knowledge there are no further plans for the Commission to call you again. This transcript will be reviewed by me in Washington and by my colleagues in Washington and it is possible that you may be contacted again. Perhaps I might talk to you again by telephone or perhaps the FBI, or it is even conceivable the Commission might want to hear from you, yourself, in Washington, but my best estimate of the situation right now is that we have the basic information from you which we need.

Mrs. HILL. I told the FBI the other day I did not want to go to Washington. I don't think I can take any more laughing at.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, we won't call on you unless it is concluded that it is absolutely necessary.

Mrs. HILL. Good. I was hoping this would do it.

Mr. SPECTER. All right. Thank you very much.

Mrs. HILL. Thank you.

Mr. SPECTER. For the purposes of the record, this diagram which was used during the deposition of Mrs. Hill will be marked Hill Exhibit No. 5.

(Instrument referred to marked by the reporter as Hill Exhibit No. 5, for identification.)

TESTIMONY OF AUSTIN L. MILLER

The testimony of Austin L. Miller was taken at 2:40 p.m., on April 8, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BELIN. Would you stand and be sworn, sir.

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before the President's Commission is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. MILLER. I do.

Mr. BELIN. Would you state your name for the record.

Mr. MILLER. Austin L. Miller.

Mr. BELIN. Where do you live?

Mr. MILLER. 1006 Powl Circle, Mesquite, Tex.

Mr. BELIN. Is that a suburb of Dallas?

Mr. MILLER. Yes; it is just a little town.

Mr. BELIN. How far out of Dallas?

Mr. MILLER. It borders the city limits of Dallas.

Mr. BELIN. How old are you?

Mr. MILLER. Twenty-six

Mr. BELIN. Married?

Mr. MILLER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did you go to school in Texas?

Mr. MILLER. Yes; I did.

Mr. BELIN. How far did you go to school?

Mr. MILLER. Tenth grade.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. MILLER. I quit school and went to work.

Mr. BELIN. Where did you work?

Mr. MILLER. First worked at Titche's, and then for Robertson & King Motor Supply, and from there I went back to Titche's, and then to A. & P. Bakery Co., and then I worked for Presto Delivery Co., and then to Texas-Louisiana Freight Bureau where I am working now.

Mr. BELIN. How long have you been there?

Mr. MILLER. Ever since 1958, January 1958.

Mr. BELIN. What do you do now?

Mr. MILLER. Well, it is a combination job between mail clerk and tariff compiler.

Mr. BELIN. Where were you working on Friday, November 22, 1963, which was the day that President Kennedy came to Dallas?

Mr. MILLER. Texas-Louisiana Freight Bureau.

Mr. BELIN. Where is that located?

Mr. MILLER. 215 Union Terminal.

Mr. BELIN. Where is the Union Terminal located?

Mr. MILLER. That is down at--the address they give is 400 South Houston Street, but the book is not the correct address, but that is what they use. Because 400 is the opposite side of the block, and there is a city park there.

Mr. BELIN. What cross street? Would it be near any intersection at all, or not?

Mr. MILLER. On the corner of Houston, and I can't think of the name of that street now, right in front of the Dallas Morning News.

Mr. BELIN. Would it be north or south of Main Street?

Mr. MILLER. It would be south.

Mr. BELIN. How many blocks south of Main Street?

Mr. MILLER. Four blocks.

Mr. BELIN. Four blocks south of Main Street on Houston?

Mr. MILLER. Right.

Mr. BELIN. All right, where were you at about the time the motorcade came by?

Mr. MILLER. I was standing on the top of the triple underpass on the Main Street side.

Mr. BELIN. Now when you say triple underpass, there are actually three underpasses there?

Mr. MILLER. Yes. They are sitting side by side. It is Main, Commerce, and Elm. I was over Elm instead of Main Street. I was over Elm Street.

Mr. BELIN. Now there is a place where the railroad tracks are, and that is the first. Is it all railroad tracks, or part railroad tracks and part freeway?

Mr. MILLER. All railroad tracks go over that particular set of underpass.

Mr. BELIN. Where you were?

Mr. MILLER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. When did you get there?

Mr. MILLER. About 12:15 or 12:20.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what time the motorcade came by?

Mr. MILLER. No; I don't, not for sure.

Mr. BELIN. About how long after you got there did you see the motorcade?

Mr. MILLER. About 10 or 15 minutes.

Mr. BELIN. Anyone else standing around there that you knew?

Mr. MILLER. Royce Skelton, the boy I work with and an elderly man who is a building maintenance man. By name, I don't know him, but a lot of other employees I have seen in the building other than myself.

Mr. BELIN. Anyone else that you knew?

Mr. MILLER. As far as knowing, no, sir.

Mr. BELIN. You saw other people there?

Mr. MILLER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see any police officer around there?

Mr. MILLER. There was one on both sides of the bridge.

Mr. BELIN. Well, describe what happened. Did you see the motorcade come by?

Mr. MILLER. Yes, sir; it came down Main Street and turned north on Houston Street and went over two blocks and turned left onto Elm Street.

Got about halfway down the hill going toward the underpass and that is when as far as I can recall the first shot was fired.

Mr. BELIN. Did you know it was a shot when you heard it?

Mr. MILLER. I didn't know it. I thought at first the motorcycle backfiring or somebody throwed some firecrackers out.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you hear or see?

Mr. MILLER. After the first one, just a few seconds later, there was two more shots fired or, or sounded like a sound at the time. I didn't know for sure. And it was after that I saw some man in the car fall forward, and a woman next to him grab him and hollered, and just what, I don't know exactly what she said.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you see?

Mr. MILLER. About that time I turned and looked toward the--there is a little plaza sitting on the hill. I looked over there to see if anything was there, who threw the firecracker or whatever it was, or see if anything was up there, and there wasn't nobody standing there, so I stepped back and looked on the tracks to see if anybody run across the railroad tracks, and there was nobody running across the railroad tracks.

So I turned right straight back just in time to see the convertible take off fast.

Mr. BELIN. You mean the convertible in which the President was riding?

Mr. MILLER. I wouldn't want to say it was the President. It was a convertible, but I saw a man fall over. I don't know whose convertible it was.

Mr. BELIN. Where did the shots sound like they came from?

Mr. MILLER. Well, the way it sounded like, it came from the, I would say from right there in the car. Would be to my left, the way I was looking at him over toward that incline.

Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else that you can think of that you saw.

Mr. MILLER. About the time I looked over to the side there, there was a police officer. No; a motorcycle running his motor under against the curb, and jumped off and come up to the hill toward the top and right behind him was some more officers and plainclothesmen, too.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see anyone that might be, that gave any suspicious movements of any kind over there?

Mr. MILLER. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see anyone when you looked around on the railroad tracks, that you hadn't seen before?

Mr. MILLER. No, sir; I didn't. We was all standing in one group right at the rail looking over, and the police officer, he was standing about 5 or 10 feet behind us.

Mr. BELIN. Now about how many were there in that group altogether, if you can remember?

Mr. MILLER. I would say in the neighborhood of 10 or 12 people. Maybe more, maybe less.

Mr. BELIN. Apart from those people, did you see anyone else in the vicinity at all on the railroad tracks?

Mr. MILLER. There was one young man or boy. He was going to come up on the tracks, but the police officer stopped him and asked him where he was going, and he said he was going to come up where he could see, and he asked if he worked for the train station, and he said, "No," so the police officer made him go back down.

Where he went to, I don't know.

Mr. BELIN. When was this?

Mr. MILLER. Oh, before the President came along.

Mr. BELIN. About how much before, do you know? Offhand?

Mr. MILLER. I couldn't say.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know anything about this man or boy that you described? About how old he was, or anything?

Mr. MILLER. I can't think. I would say he was in his early twenties.

Mr. BELIN. Tall or short?

Mr. MILLER. I don't remember that much about him. I do recall him coming up and the man talking to him and turning him back.

Mr. BELIN. So he went back down?

Mr. MILLER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Where did he come up from?

Mr. MILLER. He came up from the--I am going by where I was standing. He was from our left, from around behind that parking lot.

Mr. BELIN. Did you ever see him again or not?

Mr. MILLER. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BELIN. Did you ever see anyone else in that area at all or anything on the railroad tracks at any time?

Mr. MILLER. No, sir; not until after the shots were fired and the police officers came up the hill and climbed over the fence and started searching.

Mr. BELIN. That was the only other people that you saw?

Mr. MILLER. That is all I recall seeing.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else that you can add that might be of help in any way to the Commission, or to the investigation into the assassination?

Mr. MILLER. Offhand, no, sir; I don't recall anything else.

My statement at the time may have some more, but I don't recall exactly what all did happen for sure.

Mr. BELIN. Well, you and I never met until just a few minutes ago, did we?

Mr. MILLER. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. And as soon as you came in here, we started immediately taking your testimony under oath, is that correct?

Mr. MILLER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. We never talked about the facts before then, did we?

Mr. MILLER. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Well, you have the right, if you like, to read this deposition when it is typewritten, and sign it, or else you can waive the signing of it and have it go directly to Washington without your signing. What would be your preference?

Mr. MILLER. If you rather it would be signed----

Mr. BELIN. We do not require it to be signed.

Mr. MILLER. It makes no difference.

Mr. BELIN. We have no preference. We do not require your signing. You can waive the signing of it to save yourself a trip coming down here again, or you have the right, if you like, to come down and read it and sign.

Mr. MILLER. I will just waive it, because it would be to my advantage to not have to take off.

Mr. BELIN. All right, we sure appreciate your coming down and thank you very much.

There is one other thing. We have a sketch. I want to ask you to put on the sketch where you were.

Mr. MILLER. Okay.

Mr. BELIN. Handing you what we call "A. Miller Deposition Exhibit A." I am going to try and get this thing oriented here.

Here is Houston Street running north this way.

There is Elm. Here is the railroad overpass, and here is the freeway overpass.

Mr. MILLER. Now where this "X" is at up here, is where we was standing.

Mr. BELIN. Where it is marked "Pos. 5," there is an arrow there which I have put there, is that right?

Mr. MILLER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. By the "X," which appears to be right over the overpass of Elm, which would be to the east side of the overpass, is that right?

Mr. MILLER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. That is where you were standing?

Mr. MILLER. Yes, sir; it was.

Mr. BELIN. All right, sir.

Thank you very much.

TESTIMONY OF FRANK E. REILLY

The testimony of Frank E. Reilly was taken at 2 p.m., on April 8, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas. Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BALL. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give before the Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. REILLY. Yes; I do.

Mr. BALL. Will you state your name, please?

Mr. REILLY. Frank E. Reilly.

Mr. BALL. What is your address?

Mr. REILLY. 3309 Thibet, T-h-i-b-e-t [spelling].

Mr. BALL. What is your occupation?

Mr. REILLY. Electrician, Union Terminal.

Mr. BALL. You received a letter from the Commission, didn't you?

Mr. REILLY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Advising you that your deposition was to be taken?

Mr. REILLY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Where were you born and raised?

Mr. REILLY. I was born in Fort Worth.

Mr. BALL. How many years ago?

Mr. REILLY. I left over there when I was 17 and I am 70 now.

Mr. BALL. What kind of education do you have?

Mr. REILLY. Not too good--I went through the ninth grade.

Mr. BALL. What have you done since then, generally, just in a general way--you don't need to go into great detail?

Mr. REILLY. I've been with the Terminal Co. since 1916.

Mr. BALL. You have been a railroad man all of your life, then?

Mr. REILLY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1963, were you working for the Union Terminal Co.?

Mr. REILLY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. What were you doing that day?

Mr. REILLY. We had been working on the mail conveyor up close to the other end.

Mr. BALL. What was that?

Mr. REILLY. Mail conveyor.

Mr. BALL. Who were you working with?

Mr. REILLY. I was by myself--it was on a Friday.

Mr. BALL. About noon did you go down to someplace near Elm Street?

Mr. REILLY. I went over to Mr. Holland's shop and then we went up there together to see the parade.

Mr. BALL. You went over to Mr. Holland's office?

Mr. REILLY. Mr. Holland's shop.

Mr. BALL. What is Mr. Holland's occupation?

Mr. REILLY. He is a signal supervisor.

Mr. BALL. For the Union Terminal Co.?

Mr. REILLY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Then, where did you go?

Mr. REILLY. We taken a walk up through the overpass right there.

Mr. BALL. Where did you stand on the overpass?

Mr. REILLY. Well, we went over to the railing and stood there.

Mr. BALL. And with reference to what streets--were you standing over Elm, over Main, or over Commerce?

Mr. REILLY. Well, you mean when this parade came down?

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mr. REILLY. We were between them.

Mr. BALL. Between what streets?

Mr. REILLY. Elm and Main.

Mr. BALL. I have a map here which has been used in the deposition of another witness, but it gives some idea of the location there--this is north--this shows the corner of Elm and Houston Streets.

Mr. REILLY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And it shows where Elm turns and goes under the railroad, the overpass.

Mr. REILLY. We were between the two.

Mr. BALL. Will you take this pen and this is Elm and here is Main, and make a mark and show me where you were standing?

Mr. REILLY. This is the overpass right there?

Mr. BALL. Yes; this is the overpass.

Mr. REILLY. We was between these two streets--there was big banisters up there and it was about like that, I guess.

Mr. BALL. We will put a mark there.

Mr. REILLY. (The witness Reilly marked the instrument as requested by Counsel Ball.)

Mr. BALL. And I will put on that position "7"--you were standing there when the motorcade came along?

Mr. REILLY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Who was standing there with you?

Mr. REILLY. I believe it was Mr. Dodd and Skinney.

Mr. BALL. And what are his initials?

Mr. REILLY. Dick Dodd.

Mr. BALL. That's R. C. Dodd, isn't it?

Mr. REILLY. I think so.

Mr. BALL. And what is his position with the Union Terminal Co.?

Mr. REILLY. Foreman of the laborers.

Mr. BALL. Who else was with him?

Mr. REILLY. These two fellows here--were standing out there, but I don't know their names?

Mr. BALL. What are their names?

Mr. REILLY. I don't know their names--I don't even associate with them.

Mr. BALL. What about Mr. Holland?

Mr. REILLY. We were together.

Mr. BALL. S. M. Holland was there?

Mr. REILLY. We were together.

Mr. BALL. Holland and Dodd and you?

Mr. REILLY. And me.

Mr. BALL. Then, there were how many other men?

Mr. REILLY. Well, there were three or four--but I don't know who they were.

Mr. BALL. You have seen two of them here, haven't you?

Mr. REILLY. Yes; two of them out there.

Mr. BALL. And you know one's name is----

Mr. REILLY. I wouldn't know it--their name--I don't even know their name only by seeing them. I do go in there in the office once in a while to put in lamps.

Mr. BALL. Do you know the name of Skelton, isn't there a fellow named Skelton there?

Mr. REILLY. No; I don't.

Mr. BALL. And a man named Miller?

Mr. REILLY. No.

Mr. BALL. Were you all standing at about the same location?

Mr. REILLY. All right close together.

Mr. BALL. Were there any police officers there?

Mr. REILLY. One behind me.

Mr. BALL. One behind you?

Mr. REILLY. He was standing back close to the tracks.

Mr. BALL. That would be where?

Mr. REILLY. About 8 or 10 feet back of us.

Mr. BALL. Were there any other police officers there?

Mr. REILLY. On the far side.

Mr. BALL. What do you mean by "far side"?

Mr. REILLY. Up to the side of where the tracks are on the west side.

Mr. BALL. It would be west of where you are standing--you put a mark down and show me where the two police officers were standing, as you remember it.

Mr. REILLY. Now, this is all tracks over here.

Mr. BALL. All tracks along the railroad overpass?

Mr. REILLY. Yes; these are all tracks in here. One of them was standing behind me and one of them was standing back around here--back along here, but just how far back, I don't know.

Mr. BALL. Put a mark down there for me where the two police officers were standing.

Mr. REILLY. I have an idea one of them was standing here, and for sure, I don't know.

Mr. BALL. Where was the other one standing?

Mr. REILLY. He was on the far side, but I didn't see him.

Mr. BALL. Well, mark that "8."

Mr. REILLY. He was on the far side--and how far back--I don't know.

Mr. BALL. What do you mean by "far side"? Do you mean he was south of you?

Mr. REILLY. No; he was west of me.

Mr. BALL. You see on the map, it's marked "Elm, Main and Commerce"--this other police officer was near what?

Mr. REILLY. I wouldn't know because I wasn't facing him and there was two of them up there.

Mr. BALL. Back; by "far side" you mean that he was south of you?

Mr. REILLY. No; he was west of me--you see, this place is east and west--these streets.

Mr. BALL. But the railroad overpass goes north and south?

Mr. REILLY. Yes; north and south.

Mr. BALL. Then, if he was west of you, he would be behind you?

Mr. REILLY. Yes; behind me.

Mr. BALL. Were there two police officers behind you?

Mr. REILLY. Yes; there was two of them--both of them--one close and one here----

Mr. BALL. Listen to the question--there were two police officers there, was there?

Mr. REILLY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Were they both behind you?

Mr. REILLY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. One was closer than the other one?

Mr. REILLY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. How close was the one that was closer to you?

Mr. REILLY. I have an idea about 8 or 10 feet.

Mr. BALL. And how far away was the other one?

Mr. REILLY. About the width of that overpass across--75 or 80 feet across there.

Mr. BALL. One was 8 or 10 feet from you, and the other one was 75 feet from you and they were both behind you?

Mr. REILLY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did you see the motorcade come down Elm Street?

Mr. REILLY. No; not until it turned and started to come under the underpass.

Mr. BALL. Did you see the President's car?

Mr. REILLY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Where did you first see it?

Mr. REILLY. When it turned off of Houston Street and started around.

Mr. BALL. Onto Elm Street?

Mr. REILLY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Is that the first time you saw the President's car, when it turned off Houston Street onto Elm Street?

Mr. REILLY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. How many people were there on the overpass at the time--at that time?

Mr. REILLY. Just what I told you.

Mr. BALL. Tell me again.

Mr. REILLY. Well, there was Holland and me and Dick Dodd and those two fellows out there and the two policemen--that's all I remember seeing out there.

Mr. BALL. Did you hear something?

Mr. REILLY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. What did you hear?

Mr. REILLY. Three shots.

Mr. BALL. Where did they seem to come from; what direction?

Mr. REILLY. It seemed to me like they come out of the trees.

Mr. BALL. What trees?

Mr. REILLY. On the north side of Elm Street at the corner up there.

Mr. BALL. On the north side of Elm--on what corner?

Mr. REILLY. Well, where all those trees are--you've never been down there?

Mr. BALL. Yes; I've been there, but you tell me--I want you to tell me because it has to go on the record here and it has to be in writing.

Mr. REILLY. Well, it's at that park where all the shrubs is up there--it's to the north of Elm Street--up the slope.

Mr. BALL. Did you see any pigeons fly?

Mr. REILLY. No; I didn't pay no attention to that.

Mr. BALL. What did you do after you heard the shots?

Mr. REILLY. I just stood there a few minutes and then I went on down to the shop.

Mr. BALL. Which way did you walk?

Mr. REILLY. South.

Mr. BALL. South?

Mr. REILLY. Toward the post office.

Mr. BALL. Your shop is down south of that place?

Mr. REILLY. Yes; it's the other side of the station.

Mr. BALL. Who walked with you?

Mr. REILLY. Nobody.

Mr. BALL. You walked alone?

Mr. REILLY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. I think that's all, Mr. Reilly. This will be written up and you can look it over and correct it if you wish, or you can waive your signature if you wish.

Which do you wish--do you want to come down and sign it, or do you want to waive your signature?

Mr. REILLY. No; I'll do anything you want me to.

Mr. BALL. Well, you do anything you want to--it's your option--what do you want to do?

Mr. REILLY. I'll sign it.

Mr. BALL. All right.

This young lady will write it up and call you and you can come down here and sign it. How is that?

Mr. REILLY. Well, will I have to come back?

Mr. BALL. Yes; you will.

Mr. REILLY. It is hard for me to get off.

Mr. BALL. It is--why don't you waive your signature, if it is inconvenient to you, and we will offer this diagram as Exhibit A to your deposition.

Mr. REILLY. All right.

(Instrument marked by the reporter as "Reilly Exhibit A," for identification.)

TESTIMONY OF EARLE V. BROWN

The testimony of Earle V. Brown was taken at 4:40 p.m., on April 7, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Street, Dallas, Tex., by Messrs. Joseph A. Ball and Samuel A. Stern, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BALL. Would you please rise, raise your right hand and be sworn?

Mr. BROWN. All right.

Mr. BALL. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. BROWN. I do.

Mr. BALL. Sit down. State your name and address, please.

Mr. BROWN. Earle V. Brown, 618 North Rosemont.

Mr. BALL. What is your occupation?

Mr. BROWN. Policeman.

Mr. BALL. With the Dallas Police Department?

Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. How long have you been a policeman?

Mr. BROWN. Fourteen years.

Mr. BALL. Where were you born and what is your education and training?

Mr. BROWN. I was born on a farm near Lyons, Nebraska, in 1917, and I completed 12 years of schooling, high school.

Mr. BALL. High school?

Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Then what did you do?