Part 32

Mr. SPECTER. Were the shots over by that time when things started moving again?

Mrs. HILL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Then what happened on the scene?

Mrs. HILL. Well, they say Mrs. Kennedy climbed up on the back of the car.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe that?

Mrs. HILL. No; I have seen pictures that show that she must have, but I ran across the street.

Mr. SPECTER. To the----

Mrs. HILL. Other side.

Mr. SPECTER. North side of Elm Street?

Mrs. HILL. That's right. I saw a man up there running, or getting away or walking away or something--I would say he was running.

Mr. SPECTER. Where was that man when you first saw him?

Mrs. HILL. He was right up there by the School Depository, just--not at the corner where they say the shots came from, at the other end, right up on the slope at the top of the slope.

Mr. SPECTER. Would that be in front of the School Book Depository Building?

Mrs. HILL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. At the west end?

Mrs. HILL. More to the west end.

Mr. SPECTER. Would it be between the westernmost point of the building and some other point in the building? Was he at the westernmost point or farther east than the westernmost point?

Mrs. HILL. I would say he was farther east than the westernmost point.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you draw a diagram for me in rough outline, starting with Houston Street----

Mrs. HILL. Yes; but I can't do this very well.

Mr. SPECTER. Permit me to draw an outline, then, to get your bearing here and realizing that I want your recollection, and I'll ask you the questions. Assume that Houston Street is the street which I am marking Houston. Assume that this is Main Street. Assume that Elm Street curves down in the manner that I am drawing and marking.

Mrs. HILL. All right.

Mr. SPECTER. Assume that the Texas School Book Depository is this large building which I will mark "TSBD." Now, would you place with the letter "A" where you were at the time the President went by?

Mrs. HILL. Well, I would have to place the President first.

Mr. SPECTER. Fine--place him with the letter "X".

Mrs. HILL. All right--if he were here----

Mr. SPECTER. Now, was he in the center of the street or on the side of the street?

Mrs. HILL. He was on the side--he wasn't just completely over there, but he was past the center of the street and we were----

Mr. SPECTER. Now, place yourself with the letter "A".

Mrs. HILL. Right there [indicating].

Mr. SPECTER. Make it a big printed "A" for us.

Mrs. HILL. Okay. [Complied with request of counsel Specter.]

Mr. SPECTER. Now, would you place the position you ran to after the President's car went by?

Mrs. HILL. By that time, I'm sure the car was here--it was on down a little way, and I ran behind here.

Mr. SPECTER. Draw a line to where you ran.

Mrs. HILL. All right--I don't know whether I've got this just right--but I ran approximately right up through here.

Mr. SPECTER. Put a "B" here where you were when you came to a stop on the other side of the street.

Mrs. HILL. These steps.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, where were you when you first noticed the----

Mrs. HILL. These steps that go up--I guess you've looked at the site, there are some steps down there that go up to that promenade, or whatever you call it.

Mr. SPECTER. That go in a generally westerly direction?

Mrs. HILL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Beyond the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mrs. HILL. Yes; and I was just on this side----

Mr. SPECTER. "This side"--you are meaning--the east of it?

Mrs. HILL. The east of it.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you beyond the westernmost point of the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mrs. HILL. No.

Mr. SPECTER. You were still in front of that building?

Mrs. HILL. That's right.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, is the letter "B" now in the position where you were when you first saw that man?

Mrs. HILL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Where was that man, indicating with the letter "C," where he was? He was very close to you?

Mrs. HILL. Well, he was at the top of this hill--you don't leave me any space in here--I mean, there's a distance in here greater than what is shown here.

Mr. SPECTER. He was between Elm Street and the Depository Building?

Mrs. HILL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And where did you see him going?

Mrs. HILL. I saw him go toward the tracks, toward the railroad tracks to the west?

Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe about that man, if anything?

Mrs. HILL. That he just had on a brown overcoat and a hat.

Mr. SPECTER. Why was your attention attracted to him?

Mrs. HILL. Because he was the only thing moving up there. The other people were all grief stricken and standing there and I don't know what I would have done with him when I got up there, but I don't know why I even had the instinct to run, and I don't know that it is anything even connected with this, but since I had already--I have told it and it is part of my recollection, I am just stating it again.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, was there anything about the man that attracted your attention to him beside the fact that he was moving?

Mrs. HILL. I just thought at the time--that's the man that did it.

Mr. SPECTER. Why did you think that this was the man that did it?

Mrs. HILL. I just don't know--I mean--that was my thought.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you see any weapon in his hand?

Mrs. HILL. No; I never saw a weapon during the whole time, in anyone's hand.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you see that man from the front?

Mrs. HILL. As well as I remember, now, when I saw him he was turning and going to the west.

Mr. SPECTER. Was he in the process of turning when you first saw him?

Mrs. HILL. Yes; I would say he was turning.

Mr. SPECTER. So that you had some view of his front part of his body?

Mrs. HILL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And did you see any weapon at that time?

Mrs. HILL. No, sir; he was three-fourths turned by the time I did see him.

Mr. SPECTER. Could you see both of his hands at that time?

Mrs. HILL. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Could you see one of his hands at that time?

Mrs. HILL. No; I do not even remember seeing his hands.

Mr. SPECTER. I mean, if he was turning, his hands would have been visible, wouldn't they?

Mrs. HILL. They surely would have been.

Mr. SPECTER. So, what you are saying is, you don't have any recollection of seeing his hands?

Mrs. HILL. I have no recollection--that's right.

Mr. SPECTER. But from the position of his body, his hands would have been in the position where they could have been observed?

Mrs. HILL. That's right--surely.

Mr. SPECTER. And do you have any recollection of observing any weapon in either hand?

Mrs. HILL. No; I never saw a weapon the whole time.

Mr. SPECTER. Had you moved from point "A" at the time you first saw him?

Mrs. HILL. That's the reason I ran across the street.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you see him while you were at point "A"?

Mrs. HILL. Do you mean prior to the shots? Yes; I saw him, that's the reason why I went across the street.

Mr. SPECTER. So, you saw him when you were at point "A"?

Mrs. HILL. That's right--that's the reason I left that spot.

Mr. SPECTER. And he was at point "C" when you first saw him?

Mrs. HILL. That's right.

Mr. SPECTER. Did he move before you moved?

Mrs. HILL. His moving made me start after him.

Mr. SPECTER. So, he did move before you moved?

Mrs. HILL. Yes; and as I came across the street--as I said--I never did see Mrs. Kennedy get up or anything, because when I ran across the street, the first motorcycle that was right behind her nearly hit me turning around, because I looked up in his face and he was looking all around.

Mr. SPECTER. You mean the policeman?

Mrs. HILL. Yes; and I don't think he ever did see me. I just looked at him and dodged then because I thought his wheel was going to hit me, and I don't think he ever did see me, and I ran across through there and started up the hill. When I looked down on the ground, I mean, as I was running up the hill to catch that man, I looked down and saw some red stuff and I thought, "Oh, they got him, he's bleeding," and this is embarrassing, but it turned out to be Koolade or some sort of red drink.

Mr. SPECTER. You thought they had gotten the man who was running away?

Mrs. HILL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. You thought that perhaps the second burst of shots you heard were being directed toward him by the Secret Service?

Mrs. HILL. I just thought, "Oh, goodness, the Secret Service is shooting back."

Mr. SPECTER. Can you describe what that man looked like?

Mrs. HILL. He wasn't----

Mr. SPECTER. How tall was he?

Mrs. HILL. He wasn't very tall.

Mr. SPECTER. Was he more than 5 feet tall, or can you give me any meaningful description of him?

Mrs. HILL. Well, yes; but I don't want to.

Mr. SPECTER. Why is that?

Mrs. HILL. Well, because I had told several people and I also said it that day down there and the person that I described, and I am fully aware that his whereabouts have been known at all times, and that it seems that I am merely using a figure and converting it to my story, but the person that I saw looked a lot like--I would say the general build as I would think Jack Ruby would from that position. But I have talked with the FBI about this and I told them I realized that his whereabouts had been covered at all times and of course I didn't--at that time I didn't realize that the shots were coming from the building. I frankly thought they were coming from the knoll.

Mr. SPECTER. Why did you think they were coming from the knoll?

Mrs. HILL. That was just my idea where they were coming from.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you draw the knoll on the picture, where you mean by the knoll?

Mrs. HILL. This area in front of the Book Depository--it's right here.

Mr. SPECTER. Just draw me a circle as to where you had a general impression the shots were coming from.

Mrs. HILL. This is a hill and it was like they were coming from right in there. That's when I looked up and saw that man and all the rest of the people were stunned and not moving in that area and yet he was getting out of there--I thought that probably he had done it, and so I went to catch him, for some reason.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, did you have a conscious impression of the source of the first shot that you heard, that is, where it came from?

Mrs. HILL. Well, evidently I didn't because the only conscious recollection I have of that--I mean--until all this other came out--I had always thought that they came from the knoll.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any conscious impression of where the second shot came from?

Mrs. HILL. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Any conscious impression of where this third shot came from?

Mrs. HILL. Not any different from any of them. I thought it was just people shooting from the knoll--I did think there was more than one person shooting.

Mr. SPECTER. You did think there was more than one person shooting?

Mrs. HILL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. What made you think that?

Mrs. HILL. The way the gun report sounded and the difference in the way they were fired--the timing.

Mr. SPECTER. What was your impression as to the source of the second group of shots which you have described as the fourth, perhaps the fifth, and perhaps the sixth shot?

Mrs. HILL. Well, nothing, except that I thought that they were fired by someone else.

Mr. SPECTER. And did you have any idea where they were coming from?

Mrs. HILL. No; as I said, I thought they were coming from the general direction of that knoll.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, did you think that the Secret Service was firing them from that knoll?

Mrs. HILL. I said I didn't know--I really don't.

Mr. SPECTER. You just had the general impression that shots were coming from the knoll?

Mrs. HILL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And you had the general impression that the Secret Service was firing the second group of shots at the man who fired the first group of shots?

Mrs. HILL. That's right.

Mr. SPECTER. But you had no specific impression as to the source of those shots?

Mrs. HILL. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you get a very good look at that man, who you say was starting to run?

Mrs. HILL. Well, as I said, when I looked down at this red stuff on the ground, I said, "Oh," you know, to myself, "they hit him." You know, I was going to follow that, and when I looked up again, I looked all around and I couldn't see him anywhere and I kept running toward the train tracks and I looked all around out there and I couldn't see him--I looked everywhere and I heard someone yelling something about--it was just this voice that was yelling, "It looks like he got away," or something--I thought I had been right, you know, that he had really gone up there and he had gotten away some way in the tracks or had gone around behind the Depository, and so, I didn't know where he had gone. By that time I saw policemen--where he had gone. By that time I saw policemen--some were coming off of their motorcycles just around the curb here--just at the underpass here, and of course, the motorcade sped away and the policemen were coming from all sorts of different directions, people were closing in, and all I could think of was, "I want to get out of here fast. I don't want to be caught by anybody. I don't want to be in on anything," and everytime anybody would come toward me I would go another way until I got off of that hill back up there where the tracks were.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you run up toward the hill?

Mrs. HILL. Yes; I ran up toward the railroad tracks.

Mr. SPECTER. Let me draw the triple underpass there, and you ran up to what point--where? About the point of "D" here?

Mrs. HILL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Why did you run up there--after the man?

Mrs. HILL. I was still looking for him. I didn't know where he had gone. I heard lots of people yelling, "Did he get away, did he get away, and which way did he go."

Mr. SPECTER. You were trying to catch him?

Mrs. HILL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. But you couldn't find him any more?

Mrs. HILL. No; I just couldn't find him again. When I stopped to look down at the grass, at this red stuff and when I looked back up, by that time everyone was screaming and moving around.

Mr. SPECTER. And where were you when you looked down at the ground? Point it out to me on the diagram.

Mrs. HILL. The steps that go up to this colonnade thing right there and I saw it right about here.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, mark it with the letter "E" there.

Mrs. HILL. All right.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, a moment ago you said you didn't want to say anything more about the identity of the man. Why did you tell me that, Mrs. Hill?

Mrs. HILL. Well, because I have had an awful lot of fun made of me over being a witness in this and I'm real tired of it.

Mr. SPECTER. Who made fun of you?

Mrs. HILL. Well, quite a lot of people.

Mr. SPECTER. Anybody connected with the official investigation in the case?

Mrs. HILL. No, oh, no; it was just people, but people that I know.

Mr. SPECTER. All right, and why have they made fun of you, because of your identification of who that man was?

Mrs. HILL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Any other reason?

Mrs. HILL. Yes--I saw a dog in the car. They kept asking me, and I even gave that out on a radio or TV interview that I had seen a dog in the car.

Mr. SPECTER. In which car?

Mrs. HILL. Between the President and Mrs. Kennedy, and they kept asking me what kind of a dog and I said, "I don't know, I wasn't interested in what was in the seat," but I said, "It was white and fuzzy," and I said, "It was something white and kind of fuzzy and it was in the seat between them," and I said, "I just got to thinking--it must be a small dog," because I had remarked to my girl friend as they were taking us in the police station, I said, "Why?" I said, "I could see Liz Taylor or the Gabors traveling with a bunch of dogs, but I can't see the Kennedys traveling with dogs. Why would they have a dog with them on tour?" And, when we remarked about that she and I both--and I said, "Did you see it? What kind of a dog was it? Why were they taking a dog?" I found out later that it was those roses in the seat, but I knew they were looking at something and I just barely glanced and I saw this.

Mr. SPECTER. Is there any other reason people made fun of you?

Mrs. HILL. Well, basically, the people that made fun of me was my husband, and, of course, that was because--does this have to go in the record?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes; only in the sense that we are putting everything on the record. This really isn't too important but it is the best procedure to follow, that everything be written down.

Mrs. HILL. Well.

Mr. SPECTER. In a situation of this sort.

Mrs. HILL. Well, because I talked with an Oklahoma twang, and called Mrs. Kennedy "Jackie" and I said, "He pitched forward in Jackie's lap," and I just didn't rehearse it and do it right at all, because I didn't know it was going to be taken down.

Mr. SPECTER. And those are the reasons your husband made fun of you?

Mrs. HILL. Yes; and because I saw a dog and he was thoroughly hilarious when he found out that it was roses in the back seat and that I had seen a dog, and he said, "Of all people in the United States you would have to see a dog."

Mr. SPECTER. Has anybody made fun of you besides your husband?

Mrs. HILL. No; not really, but he's done enough for a whole bunch of people.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, going back to the question of the description of this man, can you describe him in any more detail than you already have?

Mrs. HILL. No; I haven't--I can't.

Mr. SPECTER. His height you said was about the height of Jack Ruby?

Mrs. HILL. That's right.

Mr. SPECTER. How about his weight?

Mrs. HILL. That's the only thing--I would say--he certainly wasn't any bigger than Jack Ruby.

Mr. SPECTER. Was he smaller than Jack Ruby?

Mrs. HILL. He could have been smaller.

Mr. SPECTER. How about--was he wearing a hat?

Mrs. HILL. Yes; I said he was wearing a hat.

Mr. SPECTER. Was he wearing a top coat?

Mrs. HILL. Yes; an overcoat.

Mr. SPECTER. And was he wearing a tie, could you tell?

Mrs. HILL. I didn't notice. It was a brown, I mean, I just got the impression of a brown hat.

Mr. SPECTER. Can you give me an estimate of his age?

Mrs. HILL. I would say the man was middle aged, or say, I would say 40.

Mr. SPECTER. Was he a white man or a Negro?

Mrs. HILL. He was a white man.

Mr. SPECTER. Can you describe him in any other way to me?

Mrs. HILL. No; I can't.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you think he was, in fact, Jack Ruby?

Mrs. HILL. That, I don't know.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, have you told me all that you can recollect about this man and your reason for moving toward him?

Mrs. HILL. Yes, as far as I know.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, you were at point "D," what did you do after being at point "D," which we have marked on the diagram?

Mrs. HILL. Well, as I said, the policemen were coming by that time from different areas, coming and closing this place off, and I was dodging them, trying to get back across the street.

Mr. SPECTER. Back across Elm Street?

Mrs. HILL. That's right.

Mr. SPECTER. And did you in fact dodge them?

Mrs. HILL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And get back across Elm Street?

Mrs. HILL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And what, if anything, did you do next?

Mrs. HILL. There was a man holding Mary's arm and she was crying and he had hold of her camera trying to take it with him.

Mr. SPECTER. Who was that?

Mrs. HILL. Featherstone of the Times Herald, and----

Mr. SPECTER. Dallas Times Herald?

Mrs. HILL. That's right. I ran up there and told him we had to leave. She had been impressing upon me for an hour and a half--we hadn't even gone down to see the President that day--we had been doing other things and we got down there and we just decided we would stay, but she had been impressing upon me for an hour and a half, the whole time we had been there, that we had to beat the traffic out of there, and she knows her way around real well, so I knew she could get out and we could beat the traffic, and we were just going to run for the car as fast as we could. It was parked up here on Houston. We were going to run and get out of there before the people started milling around so we wouldn't be in that traffic, and I don't know--we had been talking about it so long and she had drilled me so much, that we must get out of here, and when I came back and I found her crying and him standing there holding her camera, and holding her, I mean holding her by the arm and her camera, and telling her she had to go with him, I started trying to shake his hand loose and grab the camera and telling him that "No, we wouldn't go, we had to leave," and I guess by that time I was beginning--until then I have no conscious feeling of any scaredness or excitement or anything. I mean, you know, it is just like something that's passing in front of you, and I mean, I wasn't worried or upset in any way until I got back there and then I had a sense of urgency. I just knew I wanted to get out of there and all I could think of--and I don't think the full impact of all that had happened really hit me then, because I was just wanting to get out of there and to get away and he kept telling me--he insisted we go with him and he just practically ran us, and he got--they were throwing up a police net around that building at the time, and he just practically ran us up to the court house, I guess it is, and put us in this little room and I don't know why we were so dumb that day unless it was just the sequence of events, that everything was just happening so fast we really didn't even think, but we couldn't leave. He kept standing in front of the door and he would let a cameraman in or someone to interview us and they were shooting things in our faces, and he wouldn't let us out.

Mr. SPECTER. Who was interviewing you--newspaper reporters?

Mrs. HILL. Newspaper reporters and radio and TV people and a man from--a man named Coker John, or John Coker.

Mr. SPECTER. From where?

Mrs. HILL. As I get it, he is a sort of freelance writer, and I think he was on an assignment then. He came out--I'm not sure--I thought it was for Life or Post, but he came in there and he was shooting pictures for--I think he was shooting them for TV, but he came out to the house about 2 weeks later with this bunch of men, about four of them, three or four came out, and that's the second time I saw him, because he said, "You remember me, I saw you in the pressroom that day."

Mr. SPECTER. Is that Miss Hill or Mrs. Hill?

Mrs. HILL. It is Mrs. Hill, and he said "I saw you in the pressroom that day," and I said, "Yes." I remembered him because I saw him more than any--now, I don't remember where I am here.

Mr. SPECTER. You were telling me about what happened to you at the county courthouse, and then you digressed from that to tell me about John coming to see you in your home.

Let's go back to the county courthouse and let me ask you if you gave an affidavit to the sheriff that day?

Mrs. HILL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, did you talk to anybody from the Federal Government that day?

Mrs. HILL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Whom did you talk to?

Mrs. HILL. I don't know.

Mr. SPECTER. What agency was the man from, if you know?

Mrs. HILL. Secret Service.

Mr. SPECTER. How many times have you talked to somebody from the Secret Service in this case altogether?

Mrs. HILL. I would say the only time I talked to the Secret Service men was when I was down at the courthouse that afternoon, just before they let us leave, and I think--now, we officially sat down and supposedly were giving a story to the Secret Service men.

Mr. SPECTER. And, did they write down what you were telling them?

Mrs. HILL. I don't think they did.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you sign anything?

Mrs. HILL. Oh, well, I signed my statement that I made over in the sheriff's office.

Mr. SPECTER. Then, how about for the Secret Service men, did you sign anything?

Mrs. HILL. No, I don't think we signed anything over there, because they just took us in a little room----

Mr. SPECTER. What did you tell the Secret Service men?

Mrs. HILL. As well as I remember, we talked to so many that day.