Part 31

Mr. BELIN. Well, Houston, I believe, runs in a north-south direction. Elm runs in a east-west direction. Would a map help you at all?

Mr. EDWARDS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Let me see if I can get one for you here.

I am handing you a portion of a map. You see Houston Street here on this map?

Mr. EDWARDS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. And you see Elm Street running this way, and the arrow pointing north, so Houston runs north and south.

Mr. EDWARDS. Where do you put the courthouse?

Mr. BELIN. The courthouse would be off this strip of map, but that is Elm and here is Houston. This little black square would be the Texas School Book Depository Building.

Mr. EDWARDS. It would have to be Houston and Elm.

Mr. BELIN. Here is Elm going in the parkway here. Do you see that right there?

Mr. EDWARDS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. All right, Main Street would be running toward the bottom of the map?

Mr. EDWARDS. Yes; it was here.

Mr. BELIN. You are putting your finger at the point which would be to the west of Houston Street and to the south of Elm as it goes into the parkway, is that right?

You see the arrow pointing northwest would be to your left on the map, and you are going to be west of Houston Street and south of Elm going in the parkway, is that correct?

Mr. EDWARDS. Yes; I would be over here, right over here.

Mr. BELIN. Here is the parkway. Can you see it upside down here? Let's see if I can show you a picture.

Mr. EDWARDS. I am sorry. I don't have a picture.

Mr. BELIN. Here is a map and on the map north is shown with an arrow. You see it right here?

Mr. EDWARDS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Edwards, have you now located yourself on this map?

Mr. EDWARDS. Yes; I have.

Mr. BELIN. All right, where were you located?

Mr. EDWARDS. I guess I would plant myself right there.

Mr. BELIN. You are planting yourself now at a spot which would be on the west side of Houston Street near that entrance of Elm Street into the parkway there, and you would be facing in a northerly direction toward the School Book Depository Building, is that correct?

Mr. EDWARDS. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. Who were you standing with?

Mr. EDWARDS. Ronald Fischer.

Mr. BELIN. What time did you get there?

Mr. EDWARDS. I don't know.

Mr. BELIN. How long before the motorcade came by, if you know?

Mr. EDWARDS. Where is that little paper and I will tell you.

Mr. BELIN. Can you remember without looking at any paper right now?

Mr. EDWARDS. No; not really. I can guess.

Mr. BELIN. What is your best guess? We will understand that it is just a guess.

Mr. EDWARDS. Maybe I'd better not guess.

Mr. BELIN. All right, if you don't care to guess, that is fine. We would prefer that you not make any statement unless you feel fairly sure about it.

What did you do when you got to this point?

Mr. EDWARDS. Stood there and waited for the motorcade to come.

Mr. BELIN. Did you look around at all?

Mr. EDWARDS. Certainly.

Mr. BELIN. Did you ever take a look at the south side of the Texas School Book Depository Building? That would be facing--you would be looking at the south side of the building?

Mr. EDWARDS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did you ever look at that at all?

Mr. EDWARDS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Before the motorcade came by?

Mr. EDWARDS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What did you see?

Mr. EDWARDS. Nothing of importance except maybe one individual who was up there in the corner room of the sixth floor which was crowded in among boxes.

Mr. BELIN. You say on the sixth floor?

Mr. EDWARDS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What portion of the sixth floor as you looked at the building to your right or to your left?

Mr. EDWARDS. To my right.

Mr. BELIN. How near the corner?

Mr. EDWARDS. The corner window.

Mr. BELIN. The corner window there?

Mr. EDWARDS. Right.

Mr. BELIN. Could you describe this individual at all? Was he a white man or a Negro?

Mr. EDWARDS. White man.

Mr. BELIN. Tall or short, if you know?

Mr. EDWARDS. I couldn't say.

Mr. BELIN. Did he have anything in his hand at all that you could see?

Mr. EDWARDS. No.

Mr. BELIN. Could you see his hands?

Mr. EDWARDS. I don't remember.

Mr. BELIN. What kind of clothes did he have on?

Mr. EDWARDS. Light colored shirt, short sleeve and open neck.

Mr. BELIN. How much of him could you see? Shoulder up, waist up, knees up, or what?

Mr. EDWARDS. From the waist on. From the abdomen or stomach up.

Mr. BELIN. Was the man fat, thin, or average in size?

Mr. EDWARDS. Oh, about average. Possibly thin.

Mr. BELIN. Could you tell whether he was light skinned or medium skin or what, if you could tell?

Mr. EDWARDS. No.

Mr. BELIN. Was the sun shining in or not, if you know?

Mr. EDWARDS. Don't know.

Mr. BELIN. Was the sun out that day?

Mr. EDWARDS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What color hair did the man have?

Mr. EDWARDS. Light brown.

Mr. BELIN. Light brown hair?

Mr. EDWARDS. That is what I would say; yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see any other people on the sixth floor?

Mr. EDWARDS. No.

Mr. BELIN. Did you notice whether or not there were any, or just did you look and see any?

Mr. EDWARDS. I notice that there--I just didn't see any.

Mr. BELIN. What about the next floor above? Did you see any people on the floor above?

Mr. EDWARDS. No.

Mr. BELIN. What about on any floors below? See any people on the fifth floor?

Mr. EDWARDS. No.

Mr. BELIN. Fourth floor?

Mr. EDWARDS. No.

Mr. BELIN. Third floor?

Mr. EDWARDS. Possibly.

Mr. BELIN. Second floor?

Mr. EDWARDS. I believe so.

Mr. BELIN. First floor?

Mr. EDWARDS. I don't know.

Mr. BELIN. All right, now, you signed an affidavit for the sheriff's department where you stated that you saw a man at the window on the fifth floor, and the window was wide open all the way, and there was a stack of books around him, I could see. And you just told me you didn't see a man on the fifth floor. Was that affidavit correct or not?

Mr. EDWARDS. That is incorrect. That has been straightened out since.

Mr. BELIN. What do you mean it has been straightened out?

Mr. EDWARDS. Well, they discussed it with me later and I took that back. That was the FBI. It was the sixth floor, though.

Mr. BELIN. How do you know it was the sixth floor? Sixth floor rather than the fifth floor?

Mr. EDWARDS. I went with them and I showed them the window, and I didn't count the bottom floor.

Mr. BELIN. You mean the first time when you made the affidavit you didn't count the bottom floor?

Mr. EDWARDS. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. When you went out with the FBI, they asked you to point out the window?

Mr. EDWARDS. Right.

Mr. BELIN. And you pointed out the same window you saw on November 22?

Mr. EDWARDS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Then you weren't counting the bottom floor?

Mr. EDWARDS. They did.

Mr. BELIN. Did you watch them count?

Mr. EDWARDS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember how many floors from the top it was?

Mr. EDWARDS. I think seven in all, seven floors. It is next to the top.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know whether or not the hair of the man was short, average, or long on the man that you saw in the window that day?

Mr. EDWARDS. Don't know.

Mr. BELIN. Now what conversation did you and Ronald Fischer have about this man, if anything? Do you remember what he said?

Mr. EDWARDS. I made a statement to Ronny that I wondered who he was hiding from since he was up there crowded in among the boxes, in a joking manner.

Mr. BELIN. You mean you said it in a joking manner?

Mr. EDWARDS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What did Fischer say to you?

Mr. EDWARDS. I don't recall what he said, but I know that we said a few things. It wasn't of any importance at the time. And we looked up at him, both of us.

Mr. BELIN. How long did you look at him?

Mr. EDWARDS. Just a few seconds.

Mr. BELIN. Then what took your attention away, if any, or did you just start looking somewhere else?

Mr. EDWARDS. Started looking somewhere else.

Mr. BELIN. How long after that did the motorcade come by?

Mr. EDWARDS. Thirty seconds or a minute.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else that you can remember that you or Ronald Fischer said?

Mr. EDWARDS. No.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else you can think of that might be relevant at all?

Mr. EDWARDS. No.

Mr. BELIN. How many shots did you hear, if you remember?

Mr. EDWARDS. Well, I heard one more then than was fired, I believe.

Mr. BELIN. You mean you said on the affidavit you heard four shots?

Mr. EDWARDS. I still right now don't know how many was fired. If I said four, then I thought I heard four.

Mr. BELIN. If you said four, you mean the affidavit--maybe we'd better introduce it into the record as Edward's Deposition Exhibit A. Where do you think the shots came from?

Mr. EDWARDS. I have no idea.

Mr. BELIN. In the affidavit you stated that the shots seemed to come from the building there. Did you really say that or not?

Mr. EDWARDS. No; I didn't say that.

Mr. BELIN. All right, anything else you can think of?

Mr. EDWARDS. No.

Mr. BELIN. I want to thank you for coming down here. You have an opportunity, if you want, to come back and read this deposition and sign it, or else you can waive the signing and reading of it and it will be sent directly to Washington by the court reporter. It makes no difference to us. You can read and sign or can waive reading and signing.

Mr. EDWARDS. I don't want to make an extra trip.

Mr. BELIN. Do you want to waive it then?

Mr. EDWARDS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Thank you, sir.

TESTIMONY OF MRS. JEAN LOLLIS HILL

The testimony of Mrs. Jean Lollis Hill was taken at 2:30 p.m., on March 24, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that Mrs. Jean Lollis Hill is present at this moment in response to a letter request that she appear and give a deposition to the President's Commission investigating the assassination of President Kennedy.

May I say for the record, Mrs. Hill, that the Commission is investigating all of the facts relating to the shooting and, and we have asked you to appear here today to tell us what you know, if anything, relating to the actual assassination, because we understand you were on the scene or nearby at that time.

May the record further reflect that Mrs. Hill was sent a letter under date of March 18, 1964. With that preliminary statement, I will ask you, Mrs. Hill, to stand and raise your right hand, if you will please.

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you shall give before the President's Commission in this deposition proceeding will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mrs. HILL. I do.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you be seated, please, Mrs. Hill? And would you state your full name for the record?

Mrs. HILL. Jean Lollis Hill.

Mr. SPECTER. Mrs. Hill, have you received a letter request?

Mrs. HILL. Yes, sir; I have.

Mr. SPECTER. Under date of March 18, 1964?

Mrs. HILL. I have it here.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, when did you see that letter request?

Mrs. HILL. Well, I guess I got it 2 or 3 days afterward--March 18--so I must have gotten it Monday--no; I couldn't have gotten it yesterday--I got it Saturday.

Mr. SPECTER. That would have been March 21?

Mrs. HILL. That's right.

Mr. SPECTER. All right. May the record show that a court reporter is present and is taking verbatim transcript of the deposition of Mrs. Hill, with the court reporter, Mrs. Hill, and myself being present, and that all of the report is being transcribed and has been transcribed from the time Mrs. Hill arrived, is that correct, Mrs. Hill?

Mrs. HILL. That is correct.

Mr. SPECTER. Where were you on the day of November 22, 1963, at about noontime?

Mrs. HILL. I was standing directly across from the Texas School Depository Building on a grassy slope and the triangle toward the underpass.

Mr. SPECTER. And that would have been Dealey Plaza?

Mrs. HILL. If that's what the name of it is.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, would that be on the----

Mrs. HILL. It was to the left of the motorcade.

Mr. SPECTER. To the left of the motorcade as the motorcade proceeded forward?

Mrs. HILL. That's right.

Mr. SPECTER. So, you would have been on the south side of Elm Street?

Mrs. HILL. That's right.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, what had you done immediately before noontime, Mrs. Hill?

Mrs. HILL. We had been there for about an hour and a half and had been walking up and down and back and forth.

Mr. SPECTER. When you say "we" whom do you mean by that?

Mrs. HILL. My friend, Mary Moorman, that took the picture.

Mr. SPECTER. She had a camera with her?

Mrs. HILL. Yes; a Polaroid. We had been taking pictures all morning.

Mr. SPECTER. And did you have a camera with you?

Mrs. HILL. No.

Mr. SPECTER. And tell me what you observed as the President's motorcade passed by?

Mrs. HILL. You mean----

Mr. SPECTER. Start any place that you find most convenient and just tell me in your own way what happened.

Mrs. HILL. Well, as they came toward us, we had been taking pictures with this Polaroid camera and since it was a Polaroid we knew we had only one chance to get a picture, and at the time she had taken a picture just a few minutes before and I had grabbed it out of the camera and wrapped it and put it in my pocket. Just about that time he drew even with us.

Mr. SPECTER. And when you say "he" you mean?

Mrs. HILL. The President's car. We were standing on the curb and I jumped to the edge of the street and yelled, "Hey, we want to take your picture," to him and he was looking down in the seat--he and Mrs. Kennedy and their heads were turned toward the middle of the car looking down at something in the seat, which later turned out to be the roses, and I was so afraid he was going to look the other way because there were a lot of people across the street and we were, as far as I know, we were the only people down there in that area, and just as I yelled, "Hey," to him, he started to bring his head up to look at me and just as he did the shot rang out. Mary took the picture and fell on the ground and of course there were more shots.

Mr. SPECTER. How many shots were there altogether?

Mrs. HILL. I have always said there were some four to six shots. There were three shots--one right after the other, and a distinct pause, or just a moment's pause, and then I heard more.

Mr. SPECTER. How long a time elapsed from the first to the third of what you described as the first three shots?

Mrs. HILL. They were rapidly--they were rather rapidly fired.

Mr. SPECTER. Could you give me an estimate on the timespan on those three shots?

Mrs. HILL. No; I don't think I can.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, how many shots followed what you described as the first three shots?

Mrs. HILL. I think there were at least four or five shots and perhaps six, but I know there were more than three.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, much time elapsed from the very first shot until the very last shot, will you estimate?

Mrs. HILL. I don't think I could, properly, but my girl friend fell on the ground after about--during the shooting--right, I would say, just immediately after she had taken the picture--probably about the third shot. She fell on the ground and grabbed my slacks and said, "Get down, they're shooting." And, I knew they were but I was too stunned to move, so I didn't get down. I just stood there and gawked around.

Mr. SPECTER. Can't you give me any better idea on the sequence of the shots other than to say that there were three shots right in a row and then a moment's pause and an additional shot or shots.

Mrs. HILL. In what way?

Mr. SPECTER. Is there any way you could be more specific by way of time lapses among any of the shots, from the first to the second shot, the second to the third, or in that manner?

Mrs. HILL. The three were fired as though one person were firing; I mean, to me. They were fired just like you could reload and fire again or whatever you do with a gun.

Mr. SPECTER. With what sort of an action?

Mrs. HILL. I think that the firing that was done could have been done with the type gun that they say the assassinator used.

Mr. SPECTER. And what type gun was that, according to your understanding?

Mrs. HILL. A bolt action.

Mr. SPECTER. And how about the shots that followed the three shots, then, what would the sequence of timing have been on those?

Mrs. HILL. I thought they were different--I thought the sequence was different.

Mr. SPECTER. How will you describe the sequence?

Mrs. HILL. Quicker--more automatic.

Mr. SPECTER. Were there as few as four, as you recollected?

Mrs. HILL. I won't say positively, I think I can still seemingly hear it, and I would still say there were more, you know, I'm saying 4 to 6. I know there were at least 4, and I just almost swear that I heard 5 or 6.

Mr. SPECTER. Could there have been more than 6 that you heard?

Mrs. HILL. I couldn't say that I heard more than that.

Mr. SPECTER. Could you say for certain that you did not hear more than that?

Mrs. HILL. Yes; I didn't hear any more than that.

Mr. SPECTER. What was the position of the President, as best you recollect it, at the time the first shot was heard by you?

Mrs. HILL. He was slightly turned, he was sitting back in the seat, like turned toward Mrs. Kennedy and his head was down, and his hands were like this (indicating).

Mr. SPECTER. His hands were in his lap?

Mrs. HILL. No--not really.

Mr. SPECTER. How would you describe the position of his hands?

Mrs. HILL. He was sitting here [indicating] and Mrs. Kennedy--he was like this [indicating].

Mr. SPECTER. You are indicating the right hand on the left knee?

Mrs. HILL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. With the body turned slightly toward the person on his left?

Mrs. HILL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Who would have been Mrs. Kennedy?

Mrs. HILL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And were you watching him at this time?

Mrs. HILL. Yes, I was looking right at his face.

Mr. SPECTER. And what reaction, if any, did he have at the time of the first shot?

Mrs. HILL. As I said, I had yelled at him and he had started to raise his head up and I saw his head start to come up and all at once a bullet rang out and he slumped forward like this [indicating].

Mr. SPECTER. Lurched or slumped, as you say, to the left?

Mrs. HILL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Did his head drop down?

Mrs. HILL. Yes; he was just, you know, slumping down like this.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have a chance to see anything of Governor Connally at that exact second?

Mrs. HILL. There was a scrambling around in the front seat. I didn't know who was riding with him, I hadn't paid any attention to who was riding with him in the car, but I never did see Mrs. Connally. I guess my story is probably colored by what I have heard.

Mr. SPECTER. Tell me what you have heard that you think maybe that colored your story?

Mrs. HILL. About what the Connallys say about the shots, which shots hit where and everything.

Mr. SPECTER. What is that that you have heard?

Mrs. HILL. Well, I have heard that 1 shot hit Kennedy and also hit Connally, that the same shot that hit Kennedy hit Connally.

Mr. SPECTER. Where did you hear that, Mrs. Hill?

Mrs. HILL. I don't know.

Mr. SPECTER. What else have you heard?

Mrs. HILL. And also that Mrs. Connally jumped up and covered Mr. Connally with her body and pushed him to the floor, but I never did see Mrs. Connally.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever see Governor Connally?

Mrs. HILL. Yes; I did see him; I didn't know who he was, but I did see him and I knew that someone had been hit.

Mr. SPECTER. Where was he pushed in the car?

Mrs. HILL. Well, I just vaguely know that he was toward the front.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, was he in the front seat of the ear or was he between President Kennedy and the front seat of the car, or where was he?

Mrs. HILL. Between President Kennedy?

Mr. SPECTER. You know that there were jump seats in the car so that there would have been people sitting three positions forward, one in the back seat--President Kennedy and Mrs. Kennedy, on the right in the jump seat--Governor Connally and Mrs. Connally and in the front seat, two Secret Service agents--people sitting three positions forward?

Mrs. HILL. I saw the Secret Service agents.

Mr. SPECTER. Had you been, prior to the time I told you just now, familiar with that arrangement of the personnel in the car?

Mrs. HILL. Yes; I knew that, and as I said, I didn't know who the people were in the car because I am new here--I don't know the Connallys, I just knew that people were in the car.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you notice the person sitting in the jump seat on the right-hand side, that would be the person immediately in front of President Kennedy?

Mrs. HILL. Well, I would say it was Mr. Connally.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe him at any specific time?

Mrs. HILL. I saw a man fall to the floor.

Mr. SPECTER. And when, in point of time, did you see him fall?

Mrs. HILL. After the President was shot, but I wouldn't--it wasn't with the first shot. To me he wasn't hit when the first shot hit.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is the basis for your saying that, Mrs. Hill?

Mrs.. HILL. Well, I just think that he was hit after Kennedy was hit because, well, just the way that it looked, I would say that he was hit later.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, do you associate the time that Governor Connally appeared to have been hit with any specific shot that you heard?

Mrs. HILL. The second.

Mr. SPECTER. And what specifically did you observe at the time of the second shot?

Mrs. HILL. Well, that's what I thought had happened--that they had hit someone in the front part of the car.

Mr. SPECTER. And what did you observe at the time of the third shot?

Mrs. HILL. President Kennedy was hit again and he had further buffeted his body and I didn't realize at the time what it was--I remarked to my friends in the police station that day--did she notice his hair standing up, because it did. It just rippled up like this.

Mr. SPECTER. And at what time was that?

Mrs. HILL. On the third shot.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you notice Governor Connally at the time of the third shot?

Mrs. HILL. I never saw him again.

Mr. SPECTER. What occurred at the time of the fourth shot which you believe you heard?

Mrs. HILL. Well, at that time, of course, there was a pause and I took the other shots--about that time Mary grabbed me and was yelling and I had looked away from what was going on here and I thought, because I guess from the TV and movies, that it was Secret Service agents shooting back. To me, if somebody shoots at somebody they always shoot back and so I just thought that that's what it was and I thought, well, they are getting him and shooting back, you know; I didn't know.

Mr. SPECTER. Where was the President's car at the time you thought you heard the fourth shot?

Mrs. HILL. The motorcade came to almost a halt at the time the shots rang out, and I would say it was just approximately, if not--it couldn't have been in the same position, I'm sure it wasn't, but just a very, very short distance from where it had been. It was just almost stunned.

Mr. SPECTER. And how about the time of the fifth shot, where do you think the President's car was?

Mrs. HILL. That was during those shots, I think it wasn't any further than a few feet--further down.

Mr. SPECTER. Which shots, now--you mean the fourth, and perhaps the fifth and perhaps the sixth shot?

Mrs. HILL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you able to say what anyone was doing or what events were occurring at the time of the fourth through perhaps the sixth shots which you have testified about?

Mrs. HILL. Well, as I said, at that time she was yelling at me and on the ground.

Mr. SPECTER. Who was yelling at you?

Mrs. HILL. Mary, my friend, was yelling at me and she was down on the ground and I looked up and I could see everyone was just stunned, there was immobility all around and I just stood there looking around and I'm sure there wasn't a pause--it seemed like an eternity but I'm sure there was just a slight pause before things started moving again.