Part 30

Mr. BELIN. Now, you said the first one you thought was a firecracker?

Mr. FISCHER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What about the second one? Did you think that was a firecracker, too?

Mr. FISCHER. No. When the second shot rang out. It was too much like the first to be a firecracker. I have heard high-powered rifles fire before. The--uh--first shot fooled me, I think, because of the sound bouncing off the buildings. But the second shot was too much like the first and it was too loud--both shots were too loud to be a firecracker. And I knew it was a shot.

Mr. BELIN. Have you had any experience with high-powered rifles before?

Mr. FISCHER. Very little; but I have shot several.

Mr. BELIN. What about the third shot? Did you think that was a firecracker or what?

Mr. FISCHER. No; I knew it was a shot, too. I knew someone was shooting at something. Uh--it didn't--it still didn't dawn on me that anyone would try to shoot at the President, but I knew that somebody was shooting at something. I didn't know whether it was a real pistol or a real rifle--but I knew somebody was shooting a firearm.

Mr. BELIN. Where did the shots appear to be coming from?

Mr. FISCHER. They appeared to be coming from just west of the School Book Depository Building. There were some railroad tracks and there were some railroad cars back in there.

Mr. BELIN. And they appeared to be coming from those railroad cars?

Mr. FISCHER. Well, that area somewhere. From where I was standing, I couldn't see the cars themselves until I had run across the street and up the hill.

Mr. BELIN. The shots seemed to be how far apart?

Mr. FISCHER. That's hard to say. I've been thinking about that. And-uh--I'd guess--3 to 4 seconds.

Mr. BELIN. Was that between the first and the second or between the second and the third?

Mr. FISCHER. Between both. As far as I can remember, the shots were evenly spaced.

Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else about the shots that you remember?

Mr. FISCHER. No--only that they were very loud.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else about the man in the window that you remember?

Mr. FISCHER. (Pausing before reply.) No.

Mr. BELIN. All right. What did you do or see or hear after you hear the shots?

Mr. FISCHER. After the second shot we, Bob and I both, started running down the sidewalk on Elm Street, on the south side of Elm, and there were still people that were milling around and shuffling around. When the second shot broke, like I say, a lot of people started running, some people still stood but a lot of people started running. Uh--and then when the third shot went off, we just almost reached the curb and then just as the limousine went under the triple underpass, we got to the street--Elm Street--where we could actually see--uh--well--where the shots had gone, and--uh--we ran across the street where there were a man, his wife and two children laying on the ground. Now, that was on the north side of Elm Street about halfway between Houston and the triple underpass and we ran down there where this man and his wife and two boys were. Someone was helping them up off the ground, and the man said at that time that the President had been shot.

And, after that, we stood there for 10 or 15 seconds and then we ran up to the top of the hill there where all the Secret Service men had run, thinking that that's where the bullets had come from since they seemed to be searching that area over there. They jumped off--out of cars and ran up the side of the hill there and onto the tracks where these passenger--freight cars were.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else that you remember?

Mr. FISCHER. (Pausing before reply.) No.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do after that, then?

Mr. FISCHER. After that, we went back up to the building where we work--the records building--and went on upstairs to the office. And that's where Bob and I separated and--he had some things to do--I think he had some stuff that had to go down to another office and he left. After we got up there, he got some paper and then left. I stayed there for a little while and----

Mr. BELIN. Well, first of all, about when did you get back to the records building do you feel?

Mr. FISCHER. Uh--it must have been 5--5 minutes after the first shot was fired. Something like that.

Mr. BELIN. All right. When you went back there, did you walk by the front of the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mr. FISCHER. No; when we went back, we came--we went back the same way we came. We went straight across Elm and then up to Houston on the south side of Elm, and then crossed.

Mr. BELIN. Did you notice whether or not people were going in or coming out of the School Book Depository Building?

Mr. FISCHER. There seemed to be a lot of people around--uh--the front; but, of course, there were a lot of people all over the street.

Mr. BELIN. All right. You got back up to the building--the records building--and then what did you do?

Mr. FISCHER. Well, as I said, we went up to the fourth floor to our office. Uh--I stayed there for 5 or 10 minutes. Bob had left. And then I went next door in the purchasing department where they've got a radio. I was trying to--I didn't--I don't guess I really believed yet that it had happened--that the President had been shot. And--uh--I was trying to find out on the radio just exactly what did happen.

And I stayed in the purchasing department 5 minutes or so--well, 5 or 10 minutes, and then I went back down the hall where some people had a radio standing out in the hall. They had another station on, and still nobody knew anything.

Then, I went back to the office about--oh, maybe 5 or 10 minutes till 1, and-uh--we heard a bunch of sirens, police cars, and leaned out the window, and police cars were all surrounding the Texas School Book Depository Building. And when I saw all that and saw the detectives in the window, the officers, I knew that--I realized that the shots--that they must have the assassin in there or the man who did the shooting--or something was wrong with the building.

So, I realized then that it possibly was the man I saw since he was the only one I remember in a window and that it had something to do with the building--that it's possible that the man I saw had something to do with it.

About that time a deputy from the sheriff's office came up and asked me if I was Ronald Fischer, and I said, "Yes;" and he said that Sheriff Decker wanted to see me in his office right now.

Mr. BELIN. About what time was this now?

Mr. FISCHER. This was at--oh--1 o'clock on or about 1 o'clock.

Mr. BELIN. You then went to Sheriff Decker's office?

Mr. FISCHER. I went to Decker's office and--uh--Bob Edwards was in there. He looked up--and he had given them my name and told them--at least, this is what he told me--that he told them that we had both been standing there together and had seen this man in the window of the School Book Depository Building. So, that's why they came to get me--because he had told them.

There were a lot of other people in the office--12 or 15 other people. They all seemed to be connected with it in some way or another. And I noticed, too, in Sheriff Decker's office was this man and woman and two boys that we had talked to down the street there on Elm that had hit the ground when the shots started.

Mr. BELIN. Now, this man that you saw in the window--did he appear to be standing or sitting--or couldn't you tell?

Mr. FISCHER. He must not have been standing because I don't think the floor was that far away. He could have been standing--I'll take that back. He would have had to have been crouched over. He didn't look like he was crouched over or bent over. He must have been--I'm guessing--but I'm thinking he must have been on his knees or maybe sitting, on a box maybe. But he--I don't think that it's possible that he was standing.

Mr. BELIN. Was he sitting or crouching, or whatever he was doing, in a straight-up position?

Mr. FISCHER. No; he was leaning forward slightly.

Mr. BELIN. About how far forward was he leaning--or couldn't you tell?

Mr. FISCHER. Oh, it was slightly--enough to where I could tell, but--oh--his head wasn't out of the window and his head wasn't past the window sill. If he had been much further back in, it would have been hard for me to see him at all.

Mr. BELIN. Now, sometime afterwards, you signed a written statement at the sheriff's office--is that it?

Mr. FISCHER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. And, later, did some policemen bring out a picture of an individual and ask you to try and identify him?

Mr. FISCHER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did they tell you whose picture it was?

Mr. FISCHER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Whose picture did they say it was?

Mr. FISCHER. Well, they actually showed me two pictures--one of Lee Harvey Oswald, and one of Jack Ruby.

Mr. BELIN. All right. And what did you say?

Mr. FISCHER. I told them that that could have been the man.

Mr. BELIN. Now, which one did you say could have been the man?

Mr. FISCHER. Lee Harvey Oswald. That that could have been the man that I saw in the window of the School Book Depository Building, but that I was not sure. It's possible that a man fit the general description that I gave--but I can't say for sure.

Mr. BELIN. Was there anything different--do you remember the picture?--between the picture you saw and the man you saw in the window?

Mr. FISCHER. Yes; one thing--and that is in the picture he looked like he hadn't shaved in several days at least. And--uh--I don't know whether at that distance, looking at him from the street in the School Book Depository Building--if I could have been able to--if I could have seen that. I think, if he had been unshaven in the window, it would have made his complexion appear--well--rather dark; but I remember his complexion was light; that is, unless he had just a light beard.

Mr. BELIN. Was the sun shining on his face when you saw him in the window or not--or don't you remember?

Mr. FISCHER. No; uh--no the sun wasn't shining on his face. He was back in the shadow of the window.

Mr. BELIN. When did the policeman come out with this picture--on the same day or on the next day?

Mr. FISCHER. No; it was--uh--no, it was several days after. I can't remember whether it was a week or 2 weeks or--it was at least a week. I don't remember exactly when it was but it was a week, at least.

Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you this: Was there anything else different between the man you saw in the picture and the man you saw in the window?

Mr. FISCHER. (Pausing before reply.) No.

Mr. BELIN. What about the color of his hair? Do you remember what the color of the hair was of the man in the picture?

Mr. FISCHER. Yes; it was brown. It was a darker shade of brown but it was definitely brown.

Mr. BELIN. What do you mean, "a darker shade of brown?"

Mr. FISCHER. Well, it wasn't--it wasn't--uh--well, I guess there are a lot of shades of brown. But it wasn't--uh--it wasn't a light brown. It was a--in the picture it showed up as definitely a darker brown. I can't think of anything to compare it to.

Mr. BELIN. Well, when you saw the man in the window, did he appear to have light brown hair, dark brown, medium brown--or what kind of hair did he have?

Mr. FISCHER. Well, it wasn't dark and it wasn't light. Uh--he didn't have black hair and he didn't have blonde hair. It--uh--must have been a brown but, like I say, there are a lot of different shades of brown and I'm not--I can't--it's hard for me to say just exactly what shade of brown I saw that he had. I know what shade he had in the picture but----

Mr. BELIN. Well, I hand you a copy of a statement which I believe--at least has the signature on it--and ask you to see if this looks like it's your signature?

Mr. FISCHER. [After perusing paper.] Yes.

Mr. BELIN. All right. I'm going to call this "Fischer Deposition Exhibit No. 1," and ask you to read this statement, which appears to be dated November 22, 1963, and ask you to state if there's anything in that statement that does not appear to be accurate.

(Thereupon, the statement of Mr. Fischer dated Nov. 22, 1963, is identified as "Fischer Deposition Exhibit No. 1.)

Mr. FISCHER. You want me to read this now?

Mr. BELIN. You can just read it to yourself and then you can tell me when you get through whether or not there is anything in that statement that doesn't appear to be accurate.

Mr. FISCHER. [After reading Exhibit No. 1.] That is correct.

Mr. BELIN. Is this what you told these people there?

Mr. FISCHER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Now, in this statement it says that the man appeared to be in his twenties--is that what you told them?

Mr. FISCHER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. It says that all you could see was his head, now you've told me here today that you could see his chest?

Mr. FISCHER. Yes; from the middle of his chest up. I could see his shoulders.

Uh--the man taking that particular piece of paper was a court reporter in the records building, and he didn't--he didn't relate--he had about 12 of these things to take--well, yeah, 12 or 15--however many people there were in the sheriff's office at that time. And he was, like I say, he was in a hurry to get it down and I said I could see his head--and, so, he put that down. And that is right. I could see his head.

Mr. BELIN. The statement here says that he was light-headed and that he had on an open-neck shirt. Did he have an open-neck shirt on?

Mr. FISCHER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Now, what about being light-headed?

Mr. FISCHER. By "light-headed," I meant that he didn't have black hair. He didn't have dark--he didn't have--well, when I say "dark," I mean black. He didn't have black hair. He didn't have blonde hair. When I said, "light-headed," I didn't mean blonde--or I would have said that, but--uh.

Mr. BELIN. What color of hair did you mean? Did you say "light-headed"?

Mr. FISCHER. I believe I did say "light-headed"--because I didn't--like I say--I didn't want it to appear that he was dark.

Mr. BELIN. By "dark," what color do you mean?

Mr. FISCHER. Black.

Mr. BELIN. Well, once again, I'll ask you, to the best of your recollection, what color hair did he have?

Mr. FISCHER. Uh--like I say, it's too hard for me to--uh--to tell one way or the other. At the distance I was, uh--it's just--it's just too hard for me to--I'm not going to say it because I don't know for sure, just exactly what shade of hair he did have. It wasn't blonde and it wasn't black. Somewhere in between. And it was a shade of brown that as to whether it was a dark brown, a light brown, a medium brown, or whatever you call it--I don't know.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

The statement says that you saw him in the window there. Do you remember how far the window was open?

Mr. FISCHER. The window was open almost all the way open if not, all the way open.

Mr. BELIN. By that "all the way"--when you have a window all the way open of that kind, of course, you just have a half of the window case that is open. Is that correct?

Mr. FISCHER. That's right, You still have half an area of the opening covered by glass.

Mr. BELIN. Was it the bottom area that was open or the top area?

Mr. FISCHER. The bottom area. The window looked to be--uh--a window that raised from the bottom up.

Mr. BELIN. And it appeared to be almost as fully open as you could, or fully open?

Mr. FISCHER. Or fully open. Yes--Or I wouldn't have been able to see the cases and see past the top of his head had it not been--and his shoulders.

Mr. BELIN. Now, on this written statement it says that you remember a tall girl walking into the School Book Depository Building there at about the time you saw the man?

Mr. FISCHER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see such a girl walk in the building?

Mr. FISCHER. I can't remember. It must have been before. It must have been just before--uh--I saw the man in the window. I can't remember very well. It's been too long. I believe it was before I saw the man in the window that I saw her walk into the building. Like I say, I made a mental note of it but I didn't pay too much attention at the time.

Mr. BELIN. Now, sometime later, after November 22, you were interviewed by the FBI. Do you remember that?

Mr. FISCHER. Yes; in the records building.

Mr. BELIN. And did the FBI man have any pictures with him at all, or not?

Mr. FISCHER. I don't remember whether he had pictures or not. It seems like he did.

Mr. BELIN. Could you identify the man you saw in the window from any of the pictures?

Mr. FISCHER. Uh--not--in fact, I believe they asked me--I believe they did have pictures of him. It seems like I recall them asking me if it could have been the picture that they identified as Lee Harvey Oswald, or if it could have been the picture of Jack Ruby.

Mr. BELIN. Now what did you say about the Jack Ruby picture?

Mr. FISCHER. I told them that I didn't think it could be him because--uh--he didn't--he didn't have near enough hair, it didn't look like to me.

Mr. BELIN. What about his build?

Mr. FISCHER. And that, too. His face was just a little--uh--fat; whereas-uh--Oswald's picture was rather a slender face and neck.

Mr. BELIN. Did the man you saw in the window have a high forehead or a low forehead--or do you remember?

Mr. FISCHER. I can't--I can't remember seeing that--uh--that well. I don't know if I could have--if I saw it now, whether I could tell you whether he had a large forehead or not.

Mr. BELIN. Do you have any estimate of how far you were from that window when you saw him?

Mr. FISCHER. Uh--from the point where I was standing when I saw him in the window to him, it must have been, I would say, at least a hundred feet.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Now, did you ever tell anyone, or might you have told them, that you saw this person a minute or two before you saw the motorcade, rather than as you told us here today, 15 or 20 seconds before you first saw the motorcade?

Mr. FISCHER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did you ever tell anyone it was a minute or two before you saw the motorcade?

Mr. FISCHER. Well, I might have said "a minute or two" in just terms. I don't remember saying that but.

Mr. BELIN. But what is the----

Mr. FISCHER. Shortly before.

Mr. BELIN. Shortly?

Mr. FISCHER. Shortly before.

Mr. BELIN. Do you definitely remember that it was this 15 or 20 seconds or so before you saw the motorcade, or might it have been a minute or two before you saw the motorcade?

Mr. FISCHER. I don't think it was over a minute. It could--it was less than a minute--because, as I recall, that's what--that's the reason I turned my attention from him and I looked back down the street.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Is there anything else you can think of that bears on the assassination, or anything you saw or did or heard that you haven't related here?

Mr. FISCHER. (Pausing before reply.) No.

Mr. BELIN. Did you say "No"?

Mr. FISCHER. No--I can't think of anything.

Mr. BELIN. Shortly before this interview began, you and I met for the first time--is that correct?

Mr. FISCHER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. And we first chatted a few minutes about what you saw before we started taking your testimony on the record?

Mr. FISCHER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What is the fact as to whether or not I asked you to tell me your story or whether or not, instead, I asked you questions and tried to, in any way, lead you--or so forth?

Mr. FISCHER. I answered the questions as I think that I saw the events happen--as I saw the events happen. I was not quizzed on what to say or anything of that nature. I've merely related what I think that I saw.

Mr. BELIN. Is there anything that you told me of before we started taking the deposition that has not been included in this deposition--that you can think of?

Mr. FISCHER. [Pausing before reply.] No; not that I can think of.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

I believe that ends the deposition.

I want to thank you for your courtesy in coming here, Mr. Fischer. We appreciate your taking the time to do it. And we would also appreciate your conveying our appreciation to the Dallas County Auditor for letting you take this time off. Will you do that, please?

Mr. FISCHER. Yes; and thank you.

TESTIMONY OF ROBERT EDWIN EDWARDS

The testimony of Robert Edwin Edwards was taken at 11 a.m., on April 9, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BELIN. Would you stand and raise your right hand and be sworn, please.

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. EDWARDS. I do.

Mr. BELIN. Your name, please?

Mr. EDWARDS. Robert Edwin Edwards.

Mr. BELIN. Where do you live, Mr. Edwards?

Mr. EDWARDS. Tahlequah, Okla.

Mr. BELIN. What do you do up there?

Mr. EDWARDS. I am going to school, college, Northeastern State College.

Mr. BELIN. What year of school are you in? Are you a freshman?

Mr. EDWARDS. No; I am a senior.

Mr. BELIN. You are a senior.

Mr. EDWARDS. Right.

Mr. BELIN. You have been going up to school there for several years?

Mr. EDWARDS. Two years I went there. I laid out last year and worked here in Dallas.

Mr. BELIN. Are you originally from Dallas?

Mr. EDWARDS. No; Graham, Tex.

Mr. BELIN. Where did you go to school?

Mr. EDWARDS. Graham High School in Graham, Tex.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got out of school?

Mr. EDWARDS. I attended Abilene College.

Mr. BELIN. For a year?

Mr. EDWARDS. One year.

Mr. BELIN. Then what?

Mr. EDWARDS. Decatur Baptist College, which is a junior college.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. EDWARDS. Northeastern State College in Tahlequah, Okla.

Mr. BELIN. Laid out last year?

Mr. EDWARDS. Yes; I am finishing up this semester.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do last fall?

Mr. EDWARDS. I worked at the courthouse there.

Mr. BELIN. Is that the Dallas County Courthouse?

Mr. EDWARDS. Right.

Mr. BELIN. Where is that located?

Mr. EDWARDS. Let's say down on Main. I guess that would be sufficient.

Mr. BELIN. Main Street?

Mr. EDWARDS. Right.

Mr. BELIN. What street crosses there, do you remember?

Mr. EDWARDS. Well, you mean--give me a multiple choice and I will tell you.

Mr. BELIN. Harwood?

Mr. EDWARDS. No.

Mr. BELIN. Record?

Mr. EDWARDS. Right.

Mr. BELIN. What about Elm? Houston Street?

Mr. EDWARDS. It runs right behind it, if I am not mistaken.

Mr. BELIN. Were you working on the day the President came to Dallas?

Mr. EDWARDS. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. That was November 22, 1963, I believe on a Friday, is that correct?

Mr. EDWARDS. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. Did you have lunch before the motorcade came by or not?

Mr. EDWARDS. Yes; I did.

Mr. BELIN. Were you with anyone?

Mr. EDWARDS. Ronald Fischer.

Mr. BELIN. Ronald Fischer. Did he work with you in that office?

Mr. EDWARDS. Yes; he did.

Mr. BELIN. What were you doing there? By the way, what was your job?

Mr. EDWARDS. Just a utility clerk.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do after lunch?

Mr. EDWARDS. Came back and worked. I don't know exactly what time. For a little while until it was time for the President to come by, and then we left.

Mr. BELIN. Where did you go?

Mr. EDWARDS. Sir?

Mr. BELIN. Where did you go? You say you left. Where did you go?

Mr. EDWARDS. You mean left the office?

Mr. BELIN. Yes.

Mr. EDWARDS. Down on--I get the streets mixed up. Let's see, it would be Houston.

Mr. BELIN. Houston?

Mr. EDWARDS. Yes; I guess it would be Houston across the street in the little park right across from the courthouse, straight across from, facing the Depository.

Mr. BELIN. Well, let me ask you this now.

Mr. EDWARDS. That is Elm, I guess that is what it is. I guess that is Elm Street.

Mr. BELIN. When you used the word "Depository," what building do you mean?

Mr. EDWARDS. Texas School Book Depository.

Mr. BELIN. Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mr. EDWARDS. That building is at the corner of Elm and Houston, isn't it? Houston comes this way?