Part 29

Mrs. ROWLAND. I don't think we were contacted the next day.

Mr. BELIN. That would have been Saturday?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Saturday, I know we weren't. I am not positive.

Mr. BELIN. When were you next contacted, either on that Saturday or that Sunday?

Mrs. ROWLAND. I think so. I am not positive.

Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you how many times after November 22 were you contacted by some law enforcement agency?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Me personally?

Mr. BELIN. You personally.

Mrs. ROWLAND. I spoke to law enforcement officers about three or four times, I think.

Mr. BELIN. About how many times in November? Once on the 22d?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes. And we were contacted once Sunday morning at the Pizza Inn during November. I think it was the next Sunday.

Mr. BELIN. The 24th?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes. And we were contacted one morning, I am not positive, I think it might have been that Saturday, the following Saturday, the 23d--the Saturday following the assassination, at my mother's home, and I am not positive how many times.

Mr. BELIN. Were you present at any of these times that your husband was contacted?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Were you present, for instance, on the Sunday morning, November 24th?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what your husband said at that time?

Mrs. ROWLAND. He repeated the statement he had made in the--well, the police officers brought a written statement and asked him if that was in general what he had to say, and he said, "Yes," and they asked him specific questions about it and he answered them.

Mr. BELIN. Was there anything else that was said?

Mrs. ROWLAND. I don't believe so.

Mr. BELIN. Was there anything that your husband said that was not on that written statement?

Mrs. ROWLAND. I am not positive.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember him saying anything--do you remember him telling the police officer that the statement was correct, or do you remember him telling them anything?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes; he signed. There might have been a change or two in the statement and then he signed it and said that he verified that it was correct, to the best of his knowledge.

Mr. BELIN. Did he tell the police officer anything that was not on that statement that should be?

Mrs. ROWLAND. I don't believe so.

Mr. BELIN. Was he asked whether or not he saw any other people in any other windows?

Mrs. ROWLAND. I don't believe he was specifically asked that question.

Mr. BELIN. Did he tell any of the police officers that he saw any people in any other windows?

Mrs. ROWLAND. I am not certain.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know whether or not he told them, the police officers, that there was any other person on the sixth floor that he saw?

Mrs. ROWLAND. He never said that there was another person on the sixth floor, in my presence, that I can remember.

Mr. BELIN. Were you present when he was with the police officers?

Mrs. ROWLAND. At times.

Mr. BELIN. On Sunday morning, November 24th?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Were you personally with him throughout the time that he was with the police officers?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. And he, in your presence, never said that he saw anyone on the sixth floor other than the man with the rifle?

Mrs. ROWLAND. No. He never said in my presence that there was another man other than the man with the rifle on the sixth floor.

Mr. BELIN. It is a little bit like there has been asked a negative question and you don't know whether to answer yes or no to the question, is that right, Mrs. Rowland?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Now were you present at any subsequent interviews that your husband had with any law enforcement agency?

Mrs. ROWLAND. I was present when Mr. Howlett came to ask, to tell him that he should go to Washington, that he wanted him to go to Washington.

Mr. BELIN. What did your husband say to that?

Mrs. ROWLAND. He said, "Okay."

Mr. BELIN. Did he talk to you, by the way, about his testimony when he got back from Washington? Did he talk to you about his testimony in front of the Commission?

Mrs. ROWLAND. No.

Mr. BELIN. Has he ever talked to you about his testimony? Before you came down here, for instance, has he talked to you about what he said in front of the Commission?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Not that I remember.

Mr. BELIN. Going back to his interview with the police, do you know how many interviews he had after the one on Sunday, November 24?

Mrs. ROWLAND. I think he had about six or eight interviews in all. I mean all inclusive.

Mr. BELIN. Would that include the one with Mr. Howlett telling him to go to Washington?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes. I am not positive of the number.

Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you this. From November 24 to November 30, that week, do you know how many interviews he had?

Mrs. ROWLAND. No; I don't know.

Mr. BELIN. Now, has he ever told you that he had seen anyone else on the sixth floor other than this man with the gun that you described in the southwest corner window?

Mrs. ROWLAND. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Has he ever told you that he told anyone else that he saw anyone else on the sixth floor?

Mrs. ROWLAND. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did your husband ever complain to you that he was being questioned too much by any law enforcement agency?

Mrs. ROWLAND. I don't think so, not that I remember.

Mr. BELIN. Did he ever complain to you that any statement that he gave was not taken down?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Not that I remember.

Mr. BELIN. Was there any complaint that he ever made to you about law enforcement agencies?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Not about the law enforcement agencies, but in the Dallas Morning News on February 11, 14--11th or 14th, they had an article in there, and they had some things in the article that he didn't say.

Mr. BELIN. Like what?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Like that the man was good looking. I mean, because he said he couldn't recognize the man. That is what he told me.

Mr. BELIN. Apart from what the Dallas Morning News said, then, did he have any complaints about his contacts with either the FBI or Secret Service or the sheriffs office or the city police of Dallas?

Mrs. ROWLAND. None that I remember.

Mr. BELIN. Mrs. Rowland, you made a statement toward the beginning part of this deposition that your husband said that he had all A's, but that you knew different, because you had seen the report card.

Mrs. ROWLAND. He said he had an A average.

Mr. BELIN. But that you knew different?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Well, he may have had an A average overall A average, but some of his cards didn't have A's altogether.

Mr. BELIN. Well, you mentioned that he had A's and B's and some C's and some D's?

Mrs. ROWLAND. The one I saw.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what years those would have been for?

Mrs. ROWLAND. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Sometimes some people are prone to exaggerate more than others, and without in any way meaning to take away from the testimony of your husband as to what he saw in the building at the time, just from your general experience, do you feel you can rely on everything that your husband says?

Mrs. ROWLAND. I don't feel that I can rely on everything anybody says.

Mr. BELIN. Well, this is really an unfair question for me to ask any wife about her husband, and I am not asking it very correctly, but----

Mrs. ROWLAND. At times my husband is prone to exaggerate. Does that answer it?

Mr. BELIN. I think it does.

Is there anything else you want to add to that, or not?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Usually his exaggerations are not concerned with anything other than himself. They are usually to boast his ego. They usually say that he is really smarter than he is, or he is a better salesman than he is, something like that.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else you care to add?

Mrs. ROWLAND. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Again, I apologize for any--for in any way trying to embarrass you or anything, but your husband did see a man on the sixth floor and it is important for us to try and find out everything we can to test his accuracy as to what he saw, and so this is why I have been asking these questions.

You and I have never met before?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Not that I ever remember.

Mr. BELIN. When we did meet, I immediately brought you in here and we started taking your deposition under oath, isn't that true?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. We didn't chat about anything before we started taking your deposition, did we?

Mrs. ROWLAND. No.

Mr. BELIN. Now you mentioned the fact that the newspaper misquoted your husband?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Is there any other time when you know that he complained about being misquoted insofar as the facts of the assassination are concerned?

Mrs. ROWLAND. When we had our first written statement, the police officer, I believe he was an FBI agent, restated everything we said, and it was typed in the--in that form. But he also asked if it was, if that was the general meaning of what we had said, so he didn't complain. But anyway, it wasn't in his exact words, I mean.

Mr. BELIN. Was there anything inaccurate about the statement?

Mrs. ROWLAND. No; I don't think so.

Mr. BELIN. Did your husband ever make any complaints to you about anything inaccurate in any statements that he had given?

Mrs. ROWLAND. If he did, I don't remember it.

Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else that you can think of that might in any way be relevant to this whole area of inquiry?

Mrs. ROWLAND. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you this. Did you or your husband rather, ever see a picture of Lee Harvey Oswald on television?

Mrs. ROWLAND. I saw either the actual shooting on television of Mr. Oswald or either a rerun, and I saw his picture in the newspaper, but I don't know if my husband ever saw it or not.

But he did--we heard on the radio the afternoon of the assassination that Lee Harvey Oswald had been accused of the shooting.

Mr. BELIN. Did you or your husband know anyone by the name of Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. ROWLAND. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you or your husband know Jack Ruby?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Not to my knowledge, I never have known him, and I don't think he has. If he has, he never told me.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else you can think of?

Mrs. ROWLAND. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Well, we certainly appreciate your coming down here. You have been most helpful, Mrs. Rowland.

One final thing. You have an opportunity to either come back and read what the court reporter has, the transcript after it is typed, and sign it, or else you can waive coming down and taking the time to read it and sign it, and have it go directly to Washington.

Do you care to come down to read it?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. If you like to, you have every right to do so.

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes; I would.

Mr. BELIN. You will be contacted then, and you can come down and read it and make any corrections, if you like.

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes; could I, other than making corrections have it rewritten in better English?

Mr. BELIN. No, I'm afraid my English at times isn't very good, Mrs. Rowland, and we have to let it go the way it is right now. By corrections, I mean anything where you feel the court reporter might not have accurately transcribed the words that you and I said here.

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. If either one used bad grammar, the English teachers will have to look down their noses at us.

Thank you.

Mrs. ROWLAND. Thank you.

TESTIMONY OF RONALD B. FISCHER

The testimony of Ronald B. Fischer was taken at 11:20 a.m., on April 1, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Fischer, will you rise to be sworn, please, and raise your right hand?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. FISCHER. I do.

Mr. BELIN. Will you please state your name?

Mr. FISCHER. Ronald B. Fischer.

Mr. BELIN. And where do you live, Mr. Fischer?

Mr. FISCHER. 4007 Flamingo Way, Mesquite, Tex.

Mr. BELIN. Is this a suburb of Dallas?

Mr. FISCHER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What is your occupation?

Mr. FISCHER. I'm an auditor.

Mr. BELIN. For whom?

Mr. FISCHER. Dallas County auditor.

Mr. BELIN. And where do you work?

Mr. FISCHER. I work at 407 records building.

Mr. BELIN. And where is the records building?

Mr. FISCHER. That's in Dallas.

Mr. BELIN. Where in Dallas?

Mr. FISCHER. It covers one square block area bounded by Main, Record, Elm, and Houston.

Mr. BELIN. How old are you, Mr. Fischer?

Mr. FISCHER. Twenty-five.

Mr. BELIN. Married?

Mr. FISCHER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Children?

Mr. FISCHER. Two.

Mr. BELIN. Did you go to school here in Dallas?

Mr. FISCHER. Yes--high school, yes.

Mr. BELIN. What high school did you go to?

Mr. FISCHER. W. W. Samuell.

Mr. BELIN. Did you complete high school or not?

Mr. FISCHER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Have you participated in any postgraduate work since you graduated from high school?

Mr. FISCHER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What is that?

Mr. FISCHER. I've taken courses toward an accounting degree at Arlington State College, Arlington, Tex.

Mr. BELIN. Are these correspondence courses or have you actually attended the school?

Mr. FISCHER. No; I've attended the school.

Mr. BELIN. How long did you attend that school?

Mr. FISCHER. I attended 1 year, full time and I attended 1 year, night school.

Mr. BELIN. And what have you done since after you left Arlington?

Mr. FISCHER. All of the time since I've left Arlington, I've been working for the Dallas County auditor--with the exception of a correspondence course that I'm taking at the present time.

Mr. BELIN. Well, by that, you mean you're still working full time but you are taking the correspondence course also?

Mr. FISCHER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. You have been working for 4 or 5 years for the auditor's office?

Mr. FISCHER. Five years.

Mr. BELIN. Now, Mr. Fischer, I want to take you back to November 22, 1963, and ask you if you remember watching or getting ready to watch, the Presidential motorcade on that day? Do you remember that?

Mr. FISCHER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. And were you with anyone else, or not?

Mr. FISCHER. Bob Edwards--he works in the same office that I do.

Mr. BELIN. Does he work there now?

Mr. FISCHER. No; he doesn't. At the present time, he's attending a college in Oklahoma but I don't remember the name. It's in Tahlequah, I believe. I don't know the name of the college.

Mr. BELIN. Could that be--I think it's [spelling] T-a-h-l-e-q-u-a-h?

Mr. FISCHER. I think that's it.

Mr. BELIN. Now, when did you and Mr. Edwards leave your place of employment on that day to watch the motorcade?

Mr. FISCHER. Oh, about--well, let's see. We got off for lunch at a quarter of twelve and Mr. Lynn, our boss, said that we could take--go ahead and go on down the street after we got through with lunch, in other words, don't come back to the office after lunch. Just go on down the street and watch the parade. Everybody was due back after the parade was over.

Mr. BELIN. Uh-huh.

Mr. FISCHER. So, I went to lunch at a quarter of twelve, and ate until about 12 o'clock, and then Bob and I went down to the street--oh, 5 or 10 after 12--and we stood, at first, on Main Street right outside the records building. And then about 12:15 or 12:20, we were trying to find a place where we could see better, so we walked down to Houston and then one block down Houston to Elm and stood there until the parade came by.

Mr. BELIN. Now, do you know when you got to corner of Houston and Elm--approximately?

Mr. FISCHER. About 12:20.

Mr. BELIN. 12:20?

Mr. FISCHER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. And where were you standing on the corner of Houston and Elm?

Mr. FISCHER. We were standing right on the curb--uh--on the southwest corner of Elm and Houston.

Mr. BELIN. Where were you with relation to that lagoon that's there?

Mr. FISCHER. Well, that lagoon is rather long. We were standing in front of it, across the sidewalk. I believe it's the curb and the sidewalk and this little bit of grass, and then the lagoon. And we were standing right on the curb there.

Mr. BELIN. You were standing on the curb at about the point where the actual curve of the curb is at the intersection--or not?

Mr. FISCHER. I'd say where the curb starts to curve. Because, when the shots were fired, we looked around at the motorcade and couldn't see it--because--uh--of the people that were standing along the curb there. We just couldn't see it. Had we been on further around, we could have just looked down the street and seen it.

Mr. BELIN. So, you would have been really standing on the curb which would be the west curb of Houston Street, just where it starts to make the curve to go onto Elm there. Is that correct?

Mr. FISCHER. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. Now, would you describe what you saw as you were standing on that curb?

Mr. FISCHER. About 10 or 15 seconds before the parade--first car of the parade came around the corner.

Mr. BELIN. Now what corner is that?

Mr. FISCHER. Of Houston and Main.

Mr. BELIN. Uh-huh.

Mr. FISCHER. Which would have been the first time we could have seen any of the cars because of the building--about 10 or 15 seconds before the first car came around that corner, Bob punched me and said, "Look at that guy there in that window." And he made some remark--said, "He looks like he's uncomfortable"--or something.

And I looked up and I watched the man for, oh, I'd say, 10 or 15 seconds. It was until the first car came around the corner of Houston and Main. And, then, when that car did come around the corner, I took my attention off of the man in the window and started watching the parade. The man held my attention for 10 or 15 seconds, because he appeared uncomfortable for one, and, secondly, he wasn't watching--uh--he didn't look like he was watching for the parade. He looked like he was looking down toward the Trinity River and the triple underpass down at the end--toward the end of Elm Street. And--uh--all the time I watched him, he never moved his head, he never--he never moved anything. Just was there transfixed.

Mr. BELIN. In what window did you see the man?

Mr. FISCHER. It was the corner window on Houston Street facing Elm, in the fifth or sixth floor.

Mr. BELIN. On what side of the--first of all, what building was this you saw him in?

Mr. FISCHER. The Texas School Book Depository Building.

Mr. BELIN. And what side of the building would the window have been in?

Mr. FISCHER. It would have been--well, as you're looking toward the front of the building, it would have been to your right.

Mr. BELIN. Well, the building itself has four sides--a north, east, south, and a west side--the entire sides of the building. Would this have been the north, south, east, or west side of the building?

Mr. FISCHER. It would have been the south side--the entrance.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Now, on that south side of the building--now, was it the center part of the south side, the east part of the south side, or the west part of the south side?

Mr. FISCHER. The east part of the south side.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Now, with reference to the east corner of the south side there--would it have been the first window next to that corner, the second, the third, or the fourth--or what?

Mr. FISCHER. First window.

Mr. BELIN. From the east corner of the south side?

Mr. FISCHER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember anything about the man? Could you describe his appearance at all? First of all, how much of him could you see?

Mr. FISCHER. I could see from about the middle of his chest past the top of his head.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. FISCHER. He was in the--as you're looking toward that window, he was in the lower right portion of the window. He seemed to be sitting a little forward.

And he had--he had on an open-neck shirt, but it--uh--could have been a sport shirt or a T-shirt. It was light in color; probably white, I couldn't tell whether it had long sleeves or whether it was a short-sleeved shirt, but it was open-neck and light in color.

Uh--he had a slender face and neck--uh--and he had a light complexion--he was a white man. And he looked to be 22 or 24 years old.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember anything about the color of his hair?

Mr. FISCHER. His hair seemed to be--uh--neither light nor dark; possibly a light--well, possibly a--well, it was a brown was what it was; but as to whether it was light or dark, I can't say.

Mr. BELIN. Did he have a thick head of hair or did he have a receding hair-line--or couldn't you tell?

Mr. FISCHER. I couldn't tell. He couldn't have had very long hair, because his hair didn't seem to take up much space--of what I could see of his head. His hair must have been short and not long.

Mr. BELIN. Well, did you see a full view of his face or more of a profile of it, or what was it?

Mr. FISCHER. I saw it at an angle but, at the same time, I could see--I believe I could see the tip of his right cheek as he looked to my left.

Mr. BELIN. Now, could you be anything more definite as to what direction he was looking at?

Mr. FISCHER. He looked to me like he was looking straight at the triple underpass.

Mr. BELIN. Down what street?

Mr. FISCHER. Elm Street.

Mr. BELIN. Down Elm?

Mr. FISCHER. Toward the end of Elm Street.

Mr. BELIN. As it angles there and goes under the triple underpass there?

Mr. FISCHER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Could you see his hands?

Mr. FISCHER. No.

Mr. BELIN. Could you see whether or not he was holding anything?

Mr. FISCHER. No; I couldn't see.

Mr. BELIN. Could you see any other objects in the window?

Mr. FISCHER. There were boxes and cases stacked all the way from the bottom to the top and from the left to the right behind him. It looked--uh--it's possible that there weren't cases directly behind him because I couldn't see because of him. But--uh--all the rest of the window--a portion behind the window--there were boxes. It looked like there was space for a man to walk through there between the window and the boxes. But there were boxes in the window, or close to the window there.

Mr. BELIN. Could you see any other people in any other windows there that you remember?

Mr. FISCHER. I couldn't see any other people in the windows. I don't remember seeing any others.

Mr. BELIN. By this, do you mean that you are sure there were none, or that you just do not remember seeing any?

Mr. FISCHER. I don't remember seeing any.

Mr. BELIN. Now, after you saw the man, then the motorcade turned onto Houston from Main--is that correct?

Mr. FISCHER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did you ever see the man again in the window?

Mr. FISCHER. No.

Mr. BELIN. Did you ever look back at the window?

Mr. FISCHER. I never looked back at the window.

Mr. BELIN. Well, could you describe what happened as you watched the motorcade turn? First, about how fast did the motorcade appear to be going?

Mr. FISCHER. When the motorcade passed me, it was--uh--the driver was in process of making the wide turn there from Houston to Elm, and he was going very slow. I'd say, uh--10-15 miles an hour.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Then what happened?

Mr. FISCHER. Well, the motorcade--the limousine made the wide turn and--uh--they went out of our view just as they began to straighten up onto Elm Street because there were people standing along the curb all the way around--and that's when the limousine went out of my view and I started watching the other cars behind the Presidential limousine.

Mr. BELIN. And then what happened?

Mr. FISCHER. Well, as I looked around to watch these other cars, I heard a shot. At first I thought it was a firecracker. And--uh--everybody got quiet. There was no yelling or shouting or anything. Everything seemed to get real still. And--uh--the second shot rang out, and then everybody--from where I was standing--everybody started to scatter. And--uh--then the third shot.

At first, I thought there were four, but as I think about it more, there must have been just three.

Mr. BELIN. At first, you thought there were four shots?

Mr. FISCHER. Yes.