Part 28

Mrs. ROWLAND. Well, we were living with my mother, and so from that morning when we got up, and we walked part way----

Mr. BELIN. When did you leave your mother's home, about?

Mrs. ROWLAND. I think it was about 10 or 10:30, and we caught the bus. We walked a few blocks toward town, because we thought we would be too late to come see him, and we caught the bus, I don't know exactly what time it was when we got to town, but I think it was about 11:30, and about 15 minutes before the motorcade came by is when he told me about the man up in the window.

Mr. BELIN. All right, now, you caught a bus near your mother's place?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. About what time?

Mrs. ROWLAND. The Ledbetter bus.

Mr. BELIN. About what time do you think you caught the bus?

Mrs. ROLAND. I don't know, about 10:30, I guess.

Mr. BELIN. When did that get you downtown?

Mrs. ROWLAND. About 11. I don't know exactly. I don't remember times very well.

Mr. BELIN. Well, let me ask you this. After you got downtown, what did you do?

Mrs. ROWLAND. We just stood there waiting for the motorcade.

Mr. BELIN. Well. I will kind of work backwards. How long did you stand waiting for the motorcade before the motorcade came by, if you remember?

Mrs. ROWLAND. About 25 minutes, I think.

Mr. BELIN. How long did it take you to get from the bus stop?

Mrs. ROWLAND. The bus stop was right there.

Mr. BELIN. Do you figure if the motorcade came by at around 12:30, you figure you got down to the spot at 12 or 12:05?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. If you got down to that spot at 12 or 12:05, how many minutes prior to that time do you think you got on the bus?

Mrs. ROWLAND. About 45.

Mr. BELIN. You figure it might have been a 45-minute bus ride?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. That would have meant that you would have got on the bus around 11:15 or so?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember how long you waited for the bus before you got it?

Mrs. ROWLAND. We were walking while waiting for the bus, and it was about, I guess, 20 minutes.

Mr. BELIN. So you figured you walked around about 20 minutes?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. So you figured you would have left your mother's home shortly before 11?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. You are nodding your head yes?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. All right, did you notice anything while you were watching, waiting for the motorcade?

Mrs. ROWLAND. We saw an airplane. Now, while we were waiting for the motorcade, well, there was a man across the street who fainted in the park.

Mr. BELIN. You were standing now on what street?

Mrs. ROWLAND. On Houston Street.

Mr. BELIN. That would be on the east or the west side of Houston?

Mrs. ROWLAND. West side--east side.

Mr. BELIN. East side. In front of what building?

Mrs. ROWLAND. In front of the records, at the side of the records building.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know any particular spot that you were standing?

Mrs. ROWLAND. We were standing near the drive-in entrance. There is an elevator there, too.

Mr. BELIN. Near the elevator that comes out of the ground?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. All right, you said you noticed a man across the street fainted. Anything else that you and your husband noticed?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Well, my husband and I were talking about Mr. Stevenson's visit and the way the people had acted, and we were talking about security measures, and he said he saw a man on the sixth floor of the School Book Depository Building, and when I looked up there I didn't see the man, because I didn't know exactly what window he was talking about at first.

And when I found out which window it was, the man had apparently stepped back, because I didn't see him.

Mr. BELIN. Which window was it?

Mrs. ROWLAND. It was the far left-hand window.

Mr. BELIN. As you face the building?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. It would be the window to the south side of the building?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Would it be on the eastern part of the south side or the western part of the south side?

Mrs. ROWLAND. West.

Mr. BELIN. Would it be the farthermost west window?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes; the farthermost west pair of windows.

Mr. BELIN. The farthermost west pair of windows. What did your husband say to you?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Well, we assumed that it was a Secret Service man.

Mr. BELIN. But what did he say, if you remember?

Mrs. ROWLAND. He told me that he saw a man there who looked like he was holding a rifle, and that it must be a security man guarding the motorcade.

Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else that you can remember that he told you?

Mrs. ROWLAND. No.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do when he told you that?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Nothing. I just generally agreed with him.

Mr. BELIN. What do you mean "generally agree"? Did you see the man?

Mrs. ROWLAND. No; I didn't see the man, but I said I guess that was what it was.

Mr. BELIN. You mean you agreed that he must have been a security officer?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. I notice you are not wearing glasses now. Do you wear glasses?

Mrs. BOWLAND. Yes; sometimes.

Mr. BELIN. Are you near-sighted or far-sighted?

Mrs. BOWLAND. Near-sighted.

Mr. BELIN. Did you have any trouble looking at this window?

Mrs. BOWLAND. No; I saw the window plainly, and I saw some people hanging, looking out of some other windows, but he said that the man was standing in the background.

Mr. BELIN. Did he say about how far back?

Mrs. BOWLAND. I think he said about 12 feet, I don't know exactly.

Mr. BELIN. Did he say how much of the man he could see?

Mrs. BOWLAND. Apparently he could see at least from the waist up, because he said that the man was wearing a light shirt, and that he was holding the rifle at a port arms position.

Mr. BELIN. Did he say whether the man was white or colored?

Mrs. BOWLAND. He said he thought he was white.

Mr. BELIN. Did he say whether the man was an old man or a young man?

Mrs. BOWLAND. He said a young man.

Mr. BELIN. Did he say whether the man was fat or thin?

Mrs. BOWLAND. He said he was either tall or thin. I mean, if he was tall, he could have been well built, but if he was not very tall, then he was thin.

Mr. BELIN. Did he say whether or not the man had on a hat?

Mrs. BOWLAND. I don't think he said whether he did or not. But if he had seen a hat, I think he would have said so.

Mr. BELIN. Did he say what color hair the man had?

Mrs. BOWLAND. I am not positive.

Mr. BELIN. About how many minutes was this before the motorcade came by that he saw this?

Mrs. BOWLAND. About 15 minutes.

Mr. BELIN. Did he say anything else about the man?

Mrs. BOWLAND. Not that I remember, except that he was wearing a light colored shirt or jacket.

Mr. BELIN. Did he say anything about any other people in any other windows?

Mrs. BOWLAND. No; I don't think so.

Mr. BELIN. Now, did you notice any other people standing in any other windows or leaning out?

Mrs. BOWLAND. I am not sure if I did at that moment.

Mr. BELIN. Later on?

Mrs. BOWLAND. I saw some people either earlier or later looking out the windows.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember anything about any of the people you saw?

Mrs. BOWLAND. Some of them were colored men. I don't think I saw any women.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see any white men?

Mrs. BOWLAND. I am not positive.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember where you saw any of these Negro men?

Mrs. BOWLAND. On a lower floor, about the fourth floor, I think, and nearer the center window. The windows nearer the center.

Mr. BELIN. On some floor lower than the sixth floor, which you think was the fourth floor?

Mrs. BOWLAND. About the fourth floor.

Mr. BELIN. Did you and your husband comment about these other men?

Mrs. BOWLAND. We may have said something about there being other people watching, I am not sure.

Mr. BELIN. Did you particularly watch the sixth floor because of the fact that you had seen or your husband had seen a person on the sixth floor?

Mrs. BOWLAND. We looked at it for a few minutes, but we didn't look back, and when we heard the shots, we didn't look back up there. I grabbed his hand and started running toward the car.

Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you this now. From the time that you saw or your husband said he saw a man on the southwest part of the sixth floor, which you say was about 15 minutes before the motorcade came by, how much longer did you look back up at the building?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Just about 2 or 3 minutes.

Mr. BELIN. After that?

Mrs. ROWLAND. About 2 minutes.

Mr. BELIN. You mean about 2 minutes after that time?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. So that would be up to a time of about 13 minutes before the motorcade came by?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did you ever look back at the building after that period of time?

Mrs. ROWLAND. I may have glanced at it, but I don't remember looking back for the purpose of seeing the man.

Mr. BELIN. All right, or any man there?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Any man there.

Mr. BELIN. What were you doing from the 13 minutes on before the motorcade came until the time it came?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Just talking and looking.

Mr. BELIN. Where were you looking?

Mrs. ROWLAND. At the street and the other people, and we talked about some men who were carrying cameras.

Mr. BELIN. Now when you were standing watching the motorcade or standing watching the street scene, do you remember if your husband was to your right or to your left? Was he closer towards the School Book Depository Building?

Mrs. ROWLAND. No; he was to my left most of the time, I think.

Mr. BELIN. What was he doing?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Just standing there talking.

Mr. BELIN. Talking to you?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know whether or not if he ever looked back at the building?

Mrs. ROWLAND. I wouldn't know for certain.

Mr. BELIN. Did he ever tell you he was looking back at the building?

Mrs. ROWLAND. No.

Mr. BELIN. Did you ever notice him looking back at the building?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Not that I remember.

Mr. BELIN. Was he generally looking at you when he was talking with you?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Not necessarily. He might have been looking around at the street or at the building.

Mr. BELIN. Or at anything?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else at that place then that you specifically remember before the motorcade came by? Did your husband say anything about seeing anyone in the building, or did you talk any more about the man with the rifle?

Mrs. ROWLAND. I really don't remember very much about what happened afterward. I mean it was just----

Mr. BELIN. I mean between, in the 15 minutes preceding the motorcade?

Mrs. ROWLAND. I remember hearing on the radio that the President was passing Ervay Street. It wasn't on our radio, somebody else's radio, and that is about all.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else you can think of?

Mrs. ROWLAND. No.

Mr. BELIN. By the way, what color dress were you wearing that day?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Oh, my, I am fairly certain I was either wearing a green suit or red and gray suit, but I am not positive.

Mr. BELIN. What kind of coat, if you were wearing a coat?

Mrs. ROWLAND. I was wearing a brown coat, brown suede coat.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what your husband was wearing?

Mrs. ROWLAND. He was wearing a plaid sports jacket, probably. I am not sure which sports jacket, but I think he was wearing a plaid sports jacket that was blue and had some black and grey in it.

Mr. BELIN. Was he wearing any overcoat over the sports jacket?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Oh, no; I wasn't wearing that brown coat, I don't think. I think I was wearing an olive coat. He probably had his overcoat, but it is more of a raincoat.

Mr. BELIN. Were you wearing gloves?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Was he wearing gloves?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Were you wearing a hat?

Mrs. ROWLAND. No; a scarf.

Mr. BELIN. Was he wearing a hat, do you remember?

Mrs. ROWLAND. He might have been. He wears one sometimes. Sometimes he doesn't.

Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else you remember about what happened prior to the time the motorcade came by?

Mrs. ROWLAND. No.

Mr. BELIN. All right, now, will you please tell us what happened as the motorcade went by?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Well, Mrs. Kennedy was wearing a blue--I mean a pink or maybe a rose--it was either pink or rose dress or suit, I couldn't say, because she was sitting. She had a pink hat or rose, the same shade as her dress.

And I remember noticing that the President's hair was sort of red, that is all. They were facing mainly toward the other side of the street and waving, and as they turned the corner we heard a shot, and I didn't recognize it as being a shot. I just heard a sound, and I thought it might be a firecracker.

And the people started laughing at first, and then we heard two more shots, and they were closer than the first and second, and that is all.

Mr. BELIN. How many shots did you hear all told?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Three.

Mr. BELIN. When you said you heard two more shots that were closer than the first and second, what did you mean?

Mrs. ROWLAND. I meant the second and third were closer than the first and second.

Mr. BELIN. Mrs. Rowland, did you have any idea where the shots came from or the sound?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Well, the people generally ran towards the railroad tracks behind the School Book Depository Building, and so I naturally assumed they came from there, because that is where all the policemen and everyone was going, and I couldn't tell where the sounds came from.

Mr. BELIN. So you just started over after them?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did your husband go with you?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes; I grabbed his hand and he couldn't go anyplace else.

Mr. BELIN. Were you running or walking over there?

Mrs. ROWLAND. It wasn't a very fast run, but it wasn't a walk.

Mr. BELIN. Did you talk about anything, about the man that you had seen in the window?

Mrs. ROWLAND. No. But he was reluctant to start running, and he might have been looking up there, I don't know. But we didn't say anything about the man.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got over there? Where did you run to?

Mrs. ROWLAND. To the colonnade over on the north side of Elm Street.

Mr. BELIN. As Elm Street goes down to the freeway?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Then where did you go?

Mrs. ROWLAND. We walked towards the railroad tracks, but the policeman wouldn't let anybody go further.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mrs. ROWLAND. We just stood there and he was speculating on what had happened, and he was looking around at everything, and the policeman inspected a Coke drink bottle that was there, and my husband found a pen, very cheap ballpoint pen that you get as an advertisement, and he gave it to the policeman, and then he mentioned the man he had seen in the School Book Depository Building, and then the man took us to the records building.

Mr. BELIN. Who did your husband mention this to? Was this some police officer?

Mrs. ROWLAND. I am not certain. The first man he mentioned it to was wearing plain clothes, and we didn't see him again, I don't think. And then there were some other men who took us to the building. I don't know who they were.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do when you got to the building? Did you stay with your husband?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. He was questioned in the building?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did you hear what your husband said?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Could you describe what went on in the building?

Mrs. ROWLAND. When we first came in, we went into an office that had glass windows around it. There was a man sitting there with a child. I think it was a boy and he said that he had seen the President shot and he said that--he didn't say there were three shots, I think he said there was one, or maybe he said there were more than three, but he didn't say there were three shots.

Then we went out into an open area in the building, a fairly open area, and there were some reporters in there, and they started asking us questions which we didn't answer, because mainly we didn't have time.

Then we were taken into a very small office and a lady took his written statement and my statement, and there were three other people who came in, three other witnesses who come in.

There were two young men together, and one young lady who came in.

Mr. BELIN. All right, now, when you gave your statement to the police and your husband gave his statement to the police, or to whoever the people were taking the statement, do you remember what your husband said?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes. Do I have to tell you again?

Mr. BELIN. Well, did he say substantially what you said?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes; I think so.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else that he said that you haven't related here?

Mrs. ROWLAND. I believe he may have said that the man had dark hair. Either he said that the man had dark hair, or he didn't see what color the man's hair was. And he said just about the same thing I said here, I think.

Mr. BELIN. All right, anything else that was said there by your husband?

Mrs. ROWLAND. I don't remember anything else.

Mr. BELIN. Did your husband at that time say whether or not he had kept any watch on the window of the School Book Depository Building after he saw this man with the gun?

Mrs. ROWLAND. No.

Mr. BELIN. You mean he----

Mrs. ROWLAND. He didn't say.

Mr. BELIN. Did he say whether or not he had seen any other people in the windows of the School Book Depository Building?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes; I am fairly certain that he said there were other people looking out the windows.

Mr. BELIN. Did he say whether or not there were any other people on that same floor looking out the windows?

Mrs. ROWLAND. I am not certain whether he said or not. But I know there weren't any other people on that floor looking out the windows that could be seen from the outside.

Mr. BELIN. How do you know that?

Mrs. ROWLAND. I mean I know they couldn't be seen from the outside, because I couldn't see them. I am nearsighted.

Mr. BELIN. Were you keeping any watch on the building after the time you saw the man with the rifle?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Well----

Mr. BELIN. Did you look up at that building from time to time?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Well, I didn't pay any special attention to the building, but I am sure I glanced at the building more than once afterwards, because I can't just stand and stare in one direction.

Mr. BELIN. Do you mean you were just glancing at that building as you were glancing at other places?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. When you were glancing at that building, do you remember whether you glanced at it, say, within 10 minutes prior to the motorcade?

Mrs. ROWLAND. I don't remember. But most of the windows on that floor were closed, and the people who were looking out usually were looking out at an open window.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see any people look out of any open windows?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. About how many did you see all told, if you can remember?

Mrs. ROLAND. Two or three, I think.

Mr. BELIN. Any more than two or three looking out of windows?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Not that I remember.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember whether or not any of those that you saw looking out of windows were looking out of the sixth floor?

Mrs. ROWLAND. They weren't.

Mr. BELIN. They were not? Were they on any floor higher than the sixth floor?

Mrs. ROWLAND. No.

Mr. BELIN. Were they all on floors lower than the sixth floor?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did your husband state in the presence of you at any time while he was giving any of these statements on the afternoon of November 22, whether or not he saw any people looking out of the building?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Where did he say he saw them?

Mrs. ROWLAND. He didn't say exactly where he saw them, but the windows on the floor above the sixth floor were all closed, and I think they were never open.

Mr. BELIN. All right. So they wouldn't have been on the seventh floor?

Mrs. ROWLAND. No.

Mr. BELIN. Did he say whether or not he saw any people looking out of any other windows on the sixth floor?

Mrs. ROWLAND. He didn't say, I don't believe.

Mr. BELIN. Did he say what floor? He didn't say whether he did or did not, is that your testimony, or did he say that he did not?

Mrs. ROWLAND. I don't believe he said whether or not he saw any other people on the sixth floor.

Mr. BELIN. What did he say about what he saw? Do you remember about how many people he said he saw looking out of the windows?

Mrs. ROWLAND. I don't believe he said any certain number of people.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember anything that he said about that?

Mrs. ROWLAND. He just said that there were some other people looking out of some windows in the same building.

Mr. BELIN. Did he specifically locate them in any way?

Mrs. ROWLAND. No.

Mr. BELIN. All right, is there any other thing that your husband said in your presence that afternoon pertaining to this School Book Depository Building?

Mrs. ROWLAND. No; I don't believe so.

Mr. BELIN. How long did you stay over there?

Mrs. ROWLAND. We were there until about 2:00 or 3:00, I think.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Then we left and walked around town and tried to get a newspaper, and before we left, we knew that the President was dead.

From that--for a while, we were in a room alone with a lady who came in to testify, and said that she had seen a blond man carrying a rifle in a rifle bag, and he said that probably it couldn't have been the man he saw because the man he saw was dark-haired.

Mr. BELIN. Did this woman say where she was--where she saw the blond-haired man?

Mrs. ROWLAND. I believe she said in front of some sporting goods store. I am not certain.

Mr. BELIN. Did she say where the sporting goods store was?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Some place downtown, but I don't remember exactly.

Mr. BELIN. Was it in the immediate vicinity of the School Book Depository Building?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Meaning?

Mr. BELIN. Within a block of it?

Mrs. ROWLAND. No.

Mr. BELIN. Did she say when she saw a blond-haired man carrying a rifle?

Mrs. ROWLAND. I am not positive exactly what time she said, but it was before, she said, she heard about the President being shot, and she came back there to tell them she had seen a man earlier carrying a gun in a rifle case.

Mr. BELIN. She had seen some man, that had blond hair, downtown carrying a gun in a rifle case?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. That is all she knew?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Well, I believe that is all she knew.

Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else that you can add?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Well, there were two young men who came in too, and they said something about seeing a man carrying a rifle downtown. I believe they also said he was a blond man.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else?

Mrs. ROWLAND. That he was over 6 feet, and he was well built, from what they said, and that is all I know.

Mr. BELIN. What did your husband say about that?

Mrs. ROWLAND. He didn't comment, I don't think.

Mr. BELIN. Was there anything else that took place while you and your husband were over giving your statements, that you can think of right now? Anything else that your husband said?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Not that I remember.

Mr. BELIN. All right, then, where did you go?

Mrs. ROWLAND. We left and we walked in an easterly direction and we went to a coin shop and looked around for a while, and then I went home and he went to work.

Mr. BELIN. Where was he working?

Mrs. ROWLAND. At the Pizza Inn on West Davis. He caught a bus and went to work, and I caught a bus and went home.

Mr. BELIN. Then what happened? When did you see him next?

Mrs. ROWLAND. No, wait a minute, I didn't go home very soon. The bus--there was poor bus service, and I didn't go home until quite, until about 9:00, I think, and I saw him the next morning.

Mr. BELIN. Had he been contacted at the Pizza Inn later that night, do you know, or not?

Mrs. ROWLAND. I don't think so.

Mr. BELIN. All right, now, were either you or he contacted at any time during that day by any law enforcement agency?