Part 27

Mr. CRAWFORD. That's right; I couldn't even see the Secret Service car, at least I wasn't looking for it. As the report from the third shot sounded, I looked up. I had previously looked around to see if there was somebody shooting firecrackers to see if I could see a puff of smoke, and after I decided it wasn't a backfire from an automobile and as the third report was sounded, I looked up and from the far east corner of the sixth floor I saw a movement in the only window that was open on that floor. It was an indistinct movement. It was just barely a glimpse.

Mr. BALL. Which window?

Mr. CRAWFORD. That would be the far east window----

Mr. BALL. On the----

Mr. CRAWFORD. On the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository. I turned to Miss Mitchell and made the statement that if those were shots they came from that window. That was based mainly on the fact of the quick movement observed in the window right at the conclusion of the report.

Mr. BALL. Could you give me any better description than just a movement? Could you use any other words to describe what you saw by way of color or size of what you saw moving?

Mr. CRAWFORD. If I were asked to describe it, I would say that it was a profile, somewhat from the waist up, but it was a very quick movement and rather indistinct and it was very light colored. It was either light colored or it was reflection from the sun. When the gun was found, or when a gun was found, I asked the question if it was white, simply because if it was a gun I saw, then it was either white or it was reflecting the sun so it would appear white or light colored.

Mr. BALL. Did you see any boxes in that window?

Mr. CRAWFORD. Yes, directly behind the window, oh possibly three feet or less, there were boxes stacked up behind the window and I believe it was the only place in the building that I observed where boxes were stacked just like that.

Mr. BALL. Did you see any boxes in the window?

Mr. CRAWFORD. No, I didn't see any. There wasn't any boxes in the window.

Mr. BALL. Did you stay there at that point very long, the southeast corner?

Mr. CRAWFORD. No; as I said. I couldn't observe the President's car and I had no actual knowledge that he had been shot, so realizing that we should get the information almost immediately from the radio which had been covering the motorcade--we had been listening to it prior to going on the street--I thought our best information would come from that, so we went, Miss Mitchell and I, went back into the office. I have no way of knowing the time. I would say it was a minute or--I would say a minute.

Mr. BALL. After you heard the shots, did you return to the office?

Mr. CRAWFORD. Yes.

Mr. BALL. The movement that you saw that you describe as something light and perhaps a profile from the waist up, you mean it looked like a profile of a person?

Mr. CRAWFORD. That was--I had a hard time describing that. When I saw it, I automatically in my mind came to the conclusion that it was a person having moved out of the window. Now, to say that it was a brown haired, light skinned individual, I could not do that.

Mr. BALL. Could you tell whether it was a man or woman?

Mr. CRAWFORD. I could not.

Mr. BALL. You made a report to the Federal Bureau of Investigation on the 10th of January?

Mr. CRAWFORD. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Before I ask you about your report, did you have any impression as to the source of the sound, from what direction the sound came, the sound of the explosions?

Mr. CRAWFORD. Yes; I do. As I mentioned before, the sound, I thought it was a backfire in the cavalcade from down the hill, down the hill toward the underpass.

Mr. BALL. You mean west on Elm?

Mr. CRAWFORD. Yes, and that was a little confusing and in analyzing it later, evidently the report that I heard, and probably a lot of other people, the officers or the FBI, it evidently was a sound that was reflected by the underpass and therefore came back. It did not sound to me, ever, as I remember, the high-powered rifle sounding. It was not the sharp crack.

Mr. BALL. What caused you to look up at the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mr. CRAWFORD. The sound had to be coming from somewhere; the noise was being made at some place, so I didn't see anyone shooting firecrackers or anything else and I thought "this idiot surely shouldn't do such a thing," but if they were, where were they, and if they were shots, where were they coming from, and that caused me to search the whole area on Houston Street and in front of the Texas Depository on Elm Street and then up and that's how I happened to be looking up at the time, rather than observing things in the street, probably.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever see any smoke?

Mr. CRAWFORD. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. BALL. In your remark to Mary Ann Mitchell, did you say "if those were shots, they came from that window"?

Mr. CRAWFORD. Yes.

Mr. BALL. That is what you reported to the FBI agent, also?

Mr. CRAWFORD. Yes, I suppose; at that time, I was still not absolutely sure that they were shots and that's why I said if they were shots. I was basing that, I am sure I was basing that mainly on the fact of this quick movement that I observed. In other words, if I were firing the shots, I would have jumped back immediately at the conclusion of them.

Mr. BALL. Later on, did you go back in the street and talk to someone?

Mr. CRAWFORD. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did you talk to a deputy sheriff?

Mr. CRAWFORD. Allen Swett.

Mr. BALL. What did you tell him?

Mr. CRAWFORD. I told him to have the men search the boxes directly behind this window that was open on the sixth floor--the window in the far east corner.

Mr. BALL. Did you tell him anything of what you had seen?

Mr. CRAWFORD. I don't think so. I think I was so amazed that I could walk across the street and walk up to this building that was supposedly under surveillance and the man had not been--I say "the man"--there had not been anyone apprehended.

Mr. BALL. How long was it after you heard the shots that you walked up to Allen Swett and talked to him?

Mr. CRAWFORD. My guess is it could have been anywhere from 10-20 minutes. My guess would be around 15-20 minutes.

Mr. BALL. In the statement you made to the FBI agent, he reports you said you walked to the Texas School Book Depository where you contacted Deputy Sheriff Allen Swett and advised him of the movement you had seen in the sixth floor window?

Mr. CRAWFORD. I must have said something about the movement. I did tell him to search those windows, I think.

Mr. BALL. Could you in your own words give us your memory of what you told Allen Swett?

Mr. CRAWFORD. I would probably have said, as I remember it, that to have the men search--have someone search the boxes directly behind that window. I had seen some movement directly after the shots. That was, I think, all I said. I did not--there was no conversation and at the conclusion of my statement, he directed several men up there.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever go in the building yourself?

Mr. CRAWFORD. I did not and I still have not been in there.

Mr. BALL. I think that's all, Mr. Crawford. Thanks very much.

Mr. CRAWFORD. Thank you, Mr. Ball.

Mr. BALL. Incidentally, will you waive signature on this?

Mr. CRAWFORD. Yes; I will.

TESTIMONY OF MARY ANN MITCHELL

The testimony of Mary Ann Mitchell was taken at 2:30 p.m., on April 1, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BALL. Miss Mitchell, will you stand up, please, and be sworn; hold up your right hand.

(Complying.)

Mr. BALL. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will be giving before this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Miss MITCHELL. Yes; I do.

Mr. BALL. Will you state your name, please?

Miss MITCHELL. Mary Ann Mitchell.

Mr. BALL. What is your occupation?

Miss MITCHELL. I am a deputy district clerk.

Mr. BALL. For Dallas County?

Miss MITCHELL. For the county of Dallas.

Mr. BALL. What kind of work is that; do you work in the court?

Miss MITCHELL. No; I work in the main office of the clerk of the district courts.

Mr. BALL. Tell me something about your background--where were you born, where were you raised, what schools did you go to?

Miss MITCHELL. I was born in Roanoke, Tex., which is in Denton County, about 30 miles north of here; graduated from high school in Denton in 1942. I went to college for 2 years at Arlington and moved to Dallas and came to work here in June of 1944. I have held several secretarial and stenographic type jobs before I went to work for the county of Dallas and that was in 1950 and I have been there since then.

Mr. BALL. Since 1950, you have been with the county with the Clerk of the District Court of Dallas County?

Miss MITCHELL. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. On the 22d of November 1963, about noontime, where were you?

Miss MITCHELL. About noontime?

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Miss MITCHELL. I was in the office about noon.

Mr. BALL. Working?

Miss MITCHELL. Working, which is in the basement of the Records Building.

Mr. BALL. Did you leave there some time, leave the office to see the parade that morning?

Miss MITCHELL. Yes, as a matter of fact, I went up to see the parade since we are in the basement.

Mr. BALL. What time did you leave the building?

Miss MITCHELL. At possibly 12:25 or 12:27, something like that.

Mr. BALL. Whom were you with?

Miss MITCHELL. I left the office with Jim Crawford.

Mr. BALL. Where did you go?

Miss MITCHELL. I went out onto the street and down to the corner of the building.

Mr. BALL. That means you would be on what corner of what streets?

Miss MITCHELL. I went out the Elm Street entrance of the building and I was on the corner of Elm and Record--I'm sorry, Elm and Houston.

Mr. BALL. Which corner?

Miss MITCHELL. I knew you were going to ask that and I decided it's probably the northwest corner. I am not good at directions.

Mr. BALL. Let's put it this way----

Miss MITCHELL. It's the corner diagonally across the intersection from the Texas School Book Depository.

Mr. BALL. The Texas School Book Depository is on the northwest corner; that would put you on the southeast corner.

Miss MITCHELL. Yes, sir; I was thinking about which corner of the building.

Mr. BALL. The northwest corner of the building and the southeast corner of the intersection, is that right?

Miss MITCHELL. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Were you near the curb when you were standing?

Miss MITCHELL. Yes; I was on the curb.

Mr. BALL. Did you see the President's car pass?

Miss MITCHELL. Yes; I did.

Mr. BALL. Tell me in your own words what you noticed and what you heard after the President's car passed; what did you see and what did you hear?

Miss MITCHELL. Well, the President's car passed and, of course, I watched it as long as I could see it but, as I remember, immediately behind it was a car full of men with the top down and quite a few of them were standing and I assumed they were Secret Service men, so after the car turned the corner and started down the hill, I couldn't see over the heads of the standing men for very long, so then I turned back to watch the other people in the caravan, whatever you call it, and probably about the time the car in which Senator Yarborough was riding had just passed, I heard some reports. The first one--there were three--the second and third being closer together than the first and second and probably on the first one my thought was that it was a firecracker and I think on the second one I thought that some police officer was after somebody that wasn't doing right and by the third report Jim Crawford had said the shots came from the building and as I looked up there then we realized that if the shots were coming from that building there was bound to have been somebody shooting at the people in the cars.

Mr. BALL. You heard Jim Crawford say something about if they were shots--what were his words exactly?

Miss MITCHELL. Well, I'm not sure that he said--I think he just said, "Those shots came from that building," just assuming that everybody could have figured out by then that they were shots.

Mr. BALL. Did you look at the building?

Miss MITCHELL. Yes; I did.

Mr. BALL. Did you see anybody in any of the windows?

Miss MITCHELL. I don't remember. I understand there were some porters that were leaning out of the fifth floor windows but I don't remember whether I saw them or not. I know where I thought he was pointing and where I was looking I couldn't see anybody so I never was sure which window he thought he was pointing to.

Mr. BALL. Was he pointing?

Miss MITCHELL. I am almost sure that he was because I was trying to figure out exactly where he was.

Mr. BALL. What did you do after that, if anything?

Miss MITCHELL. Well, looked back around at the crowd, I'm sure, because I expected to see the Secret Service men and police escorts just start pouring everywhere when we decided what the shots were and then looking at the people that were falling on the ground and started milling around and then I went back in the office.

Mr. BALL. And you did not come out again?

Miss MITCHELL. No; I did not come out again.

Mr. BALL. Did you, at any time, say anything like "oh, no, no" in reply to what Mr. Crawford said?

Miss MITCHELL. Well, yes, I'm sure I did.

Mr. BALL. In reply to what remark of his?

Miss MITCHELL. Oh, I don't know. I don't know possibly it was when he was talking about the shots coming from the building but I don't remember if he said anything else.

Mr. BALL. Well, if you excuse me just a minute, let me look in my notes here. These are the notes from which I refresh my memory here.

Miss MITCHELL. I can remember what I was saying and doing better than I can what other people were.

Mr. BALL. Is there anything else that you remember that you said?

Miss MITCHELL. Besides when I said something about "oh, no, no" or "oh, my goodness" or "oh, my God" or whatever I said?

Mr. BALL. Yes; that's right.

Miss MITCHELL. Yes; I said, "This is no place for us, let's get out of here." I thought if we would get out of their way, the police officers could work better.

Mr. BALL. That's when you left?

Miss MITCHELL. That's when I left and he came with me. I had locked the office and I had the key to the office still in my hand so I could get back in very fast.

Mr. BALL. I think that's all. Do you want to look this over and read it and sign it or do you want to waive signature?

Miss MITCHELL. Either way. We were out of the office such a short time because we had spotters in the building so we would know when the parade was coming and we could run out. We had so many people in the building who worked there upstairs and they called us when it was coming so we could go outside.

Mr. BALL. If you wish, we can waive your signature; the young lady will write it up and send it back to Washington, is that all right with you?

Miss MITCHELL. Yes; that's fine.

Mr. BALL. I think that's all. Thank you very much for coming up today.

TESTIMONY OF MRS. BARBARA ROWLAND

The testimony of Mrs. Barbara Rowland was taken at 4 p.m., on April 7, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BELIN. Mrs. Rowland, will you stand and be sworn. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before this President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Would you please state your name.

Mrs. ROWLAND. Barbara Rowland.

Mr. BELIN. Is it Miss or Mrs.?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Mrs.

Mr. BELIN. To whom are you married?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Arnold Lewis Rowland.

Mr. BELIN. Your husband has already gone to Washington to testify before the Commission in Washington, is that correct?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What is your occupation right now? What are you doing?

Mrs. ROWLAND. I am a housewife.

Mr. BELIN. Are you a high school graduate?

Mrs. ROWLAND. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Are you still attending high school?

Mrs. ROWLAND. No; but I plan to go back later.

Mr. BELIN. In the fall?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Where is your husband working?

Mrs. ROWLAND. He's got a new job. He is working for Life Circulation Co., or corporation, I don't know which.

Mr. BELIN. What does he do?

Mrs. ROWLAND. He is a telephone solicitor.

Mr. BELIN. For magazine subscriptions?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Is your husband a high school graduate or not?

Mrs. ROWLAND. No.

Mr. BELIN. Did you meet while you were going to high school?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. How old is your husband, by the way?

Mrs. ROWLAND. He is 18.

Mr. BELIN. When were you married?

Mrs. ROWLAND. We were married May 16, 1963.

Mr. BELIN. So you will be having your anniversary in another few weeks?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know if I got on the record your residence?

Mrs. ROWLAND. 1131A Phinney.

Mr. BELIN. Is that in Dallas?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Are you originally from Dallas?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. You lived here all your life?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Except the summer we lived in Oregon.

Mr. BELIN. Is your husband originally from Dallas?

Mrs. ROWLAND. He is from Corpus Christi.

Mr. BELIN. Has he lived in Texas all of his life, do you know, or not?

Mrs. ROWLAND. No. He has lived in Texas and Kansas and Oregon and Arizona, and I don't know where else.

Mr. BELIN. When did he live in Kansas?

Mrs. ROWLAND. About 2 years ago, I think.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know what he was doing when he was in Kansas?

Mrs. ROWLAND. He was going to school and working, I don't know what as. I think he worked in a cafe.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know how far your husband got through school?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Well, his credits are all mixed up. I think he lacks one or two semesters.

Mr. BELIN. Of completing high school?

Mrs. ROLAND. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. You said you were going back to school. Does he plan to keep working, or does he plan to go back to school?

Mrs. ROWLAND. He plans to go back to school sometime. I'm not sure when.

Mr. BELIN. To finish high school?

Mrs. ROWLAND. And college. Go to college, I think.

Mr. BELIN. Well, has he ever made any application for college yet, that you know of?

Mrs. ROWLAND. I don't know for certain.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know, or has he ever said to you that he has?

Mrs. ROWLAND. He told me he was going to make an application at Oregon State, and--but I don't know if he ever made any applications anywhere.

Mr. BELIN. Would you categorize yourself insofar as your grades that you got in high school, would they have been C's, B's, or A's, or what?

Mrs. ROWLAND. A's and a few B's.

Mr. BELIN. What was your major?

Mrs. ROWLAND. English.

Mr. BELIN. If you had one?

Mrs. ROWLAND. I was going to major in English, Math, and Spanish.

Mr. BELIN. All three?

Mrs. ROWLAND. In high school.

Mr. BELIN. What about your husband? Did you know what he was majoring in?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Math, I think.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know about what his grades were?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Varied.

Mr. BELIN. What do you mean by that?

Mrs. ROWLAND. He made A's and B's in some subjects, and he made C's and D's, I think, in other subjects.

Mr. BELIN. Was this before you were married?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes. He says he has an A average, but I don't believe him.

Mr. BELIN. Why? Did he tell you that?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes. He told me that, because I saw a few of his report cards.

Mr. BELIN. Pardon?

Mrs. ROWLAND. I saw a few of his report cards and they weren't all A's.

Mr. BELIN. For what years would that have been?

Mrs. ROWLAND. I don't remember. I just saw them.

Mr. BELIN. Mrs. Rowland, I want to get just a little bit more background information. After you were married, were you employed at all or not?

Mrs. ROWLAND. I worked for Sanger Harris during the Christmas season this year, this past year.

Mr. BELIN. Other than that?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Well, I worked for about 3 days for a friend of mine at a dry goods store.

Mr. BELIN. What about your husband? What jobs has he held since you were married?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Let's see, he worked at West Foods in Salem,----

Mr. BELIN. Was this after you were married?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did you go to Oregon after you were married?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes. We were married May 16, and we went to Oregon about, we left the next day, and we got there about the 21st or something like that. He worked at West Foods in Salem; Exchange Lumber in Salem; Myron Frank in Salem, and after we moved back down here and----

Mr. BELIN. When did you move back down to Texas?

Mrs. ROWLAND. In September.

Mr. BELIN. Were these jobs that he held of the same type, or did he work first at one place and then----

Mrs. ROWLAND. One place and then another.

Mr. BELIN. Any particular reason why he changed jobs, that you know of?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Well, the first job was dirty and difficult and he didn't like it.

Mr. BELIN. What was he doing then?

Mrs. ROWLAND. He was working in a mushroom plant.

Mr. BELIN. As what?

Mrs. ROWLAND. I think he was carrying them out, I don't know exactly what he was doing with them. Then he worked at Myron Frank which was a department store.

Mr. BELIN. What did he do there?

Mrs. ROWLAND. He worked as a cook.

Mr. BELIN. Is he a good cook?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Pretty good cook.

Mr. BELIN. Are you better than he is?

Mrs. ROWLAND. I am not a very good cook.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mrs. ROWLAND. Anyway, he worked there. It was a temporary job when he got it, and when the time, when the period was up, he got another job as a, what do you call it, a shipping clerk at the Exchange Lumber Co., and he worked there until a few days before we left.

Mr. BELIN. Then you went back to Dallas sometime in September?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did your husband do?

Mrs. ROWLAND. I don't remember the first job. He worked for Pizza Inn as a cook and he worked for Civic Reading Club as a telephone solicitation job, and he worked for P. F. Collier Co., as a salesman, and then he worked, now he is working for Life Circulation Co. as a telephone solicitor.

Mr. BELIN. How long did he have these jobs? The first one, how long did he work there, approximately?

Mrs. ROWLAND. I don't know. I think he worked at Pizza Inn for about two and a half months, maybe. And he worked for P. F. Collier for about 4 weeks, I think, but he didn't do anything there. I mean he wasn't very successful. And he worked for Civic Reading Club about 2 months, I guess.

Mr. BELIN. And now he is working for?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Life Circulation Co.

Mr. BELIN. Were you working at all during the fall, or what were you doing?

Mrs. ROWLAND. He worked for Sanger Harris during the Christmas season, too.

Mr. BELIN. Were you?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes. That is the only job. That is all I have worked.

Mr. BELIN. Were you going to school at all in the fall, or not?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes; at the beginning of the fall we were both going to school. But we couldn't quite afford to stay, and so because his job was only part-time----

Mr. BELIN. So did either one of you quit or both?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Both.

Mr. BELIN. About when did you both quit?

Mrs. ROLAND. In November, I believe it was.

Mr. BELIN. Would this have been before or after the shooting of President Kennedy?

Mrs. ROLAND. Well, we stopped going before the assassination, but we officially dropped afterwards.

Mr. BELIN. Well, let me ask you this. On the morning of the assassination, where were you?

Mrs. ROLAND. We were on Houston Street near the drive-in entrance of the records building between Elm and Main Streets.

Mr. BELIN. Before that, where had you been that morning?

Mrs. ROWLAND. At my mother's home.

Mr. BELIN. You had been at your mother's home that morning from about when to when?