Part 26

Mr. DILLARD. Yes, I don't remember whether I developed that roll or not. I may have.

Mr. BALL. Did you do that the same day?

Mr. DILLARD. Yes, immediately thereafter, shortly after I came back from the hospital.

Mr. BALL. Then you examined the pictures that you had taken--those two pictures you had taken?

Mr. DILLARD. Yes.

Mr. BALL. I have----

Mr. DILLARD. There was never any question in my mind that there was more than or less than three explosions which were all heavy rifle fire, in my opinion, of the same rifle. The same rifle fired three shots.

Mr. BALL. Do you still have the two negatives?

Mr. DILLARD. Yes; of these [indicating]?

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mr. DILLARD. Yes.

Mr. BALL. You have them in your possession?

Mr. DILLARD. At the Dallas News; they're in a box kept locked in the managing editor's office.

Mr. BALL. Suppose we could do this. I have pictures here which you can identify but perhaps it might be a little closer to the source if we do this. Could you make me up two prints for your deposition from those negatives?

Mr. DILLARD. Well, I guess so.

Mr. BALL. Off the record.

(Off-record discussion.)

Mr. BALL. You will endorse your signature on each copy as being a print made from your negatives, is that satisfactory?

Mr. DILLARD. Suits me; I could get it notarized.

Mr. BALL. You don't need to do that because we can attach it as a copy to this deposition.

Mr. DILLARD. I could sign these; of course, you want that other.

Mr. BALL. We have two here. First of all, you made one picture with a wide lens?

Mr. DILLARD. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And you made a picture with a short lens?

Mr. DILLARD. Long lens--short and wide are the same.

Mr. BALL. A short, wide lens and one long lens. Now, I show you two pictures and I mark one "A" and mark one "B." Look them over and tell me whether or not those are prints from the picture that you made that day.

Mr. DILLARD. These are prints from one of the negatives I made on November 22.

Mr. BALL. And then you will furnish us two prints, one from each negative which we will mark as "C" and "D" and you will initial them, is that correct?

Mr. DILLARD. That is correct.

Mr. BALL. Do you mind initialing the "A" and "B" and we will make it part of this deposition--just on the back?

Mr. DILLARD. One of them will be the same picture as these two. These two are prints from one of my negatives.

Mr. BALL. That will be all right.

Mr. DILLARD. I have another negative.

Mr. BALL. Which you will make a print of?

Mr. DILLARD. If you wish.

Mr. BALL. Make up a print from each negative. Now, you made a statement to Agent Keutzer of the Federal Bureau of Investigation on the 25th of November 1963, didn't you, or thereabouts?

Mr. DILLARD. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And at that time, you told him that you first heard a noise which sounded like a torpedo, didn't you?

Mr. DILLARD. Yes, I said----

Mr. BALL. Off the record.

(Off-record discussion.)

Mr. BALL. Did you tell him that hearing another sound similar to that, you realized it was gunfire?

Mr. DILLARD. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And you heard the third shot. Now, the statement says that upon hearing the third shot, the car in which he was riding was stopped almost in front of the Texas School Book Depository Building.

Mr. DILLARD. My car?

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mr. DILLARD. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did you hear Bob Jackson of the Dallas Times-Herald exclaim "I see a rifle; it's up in the open window".

Mr. DILLARD. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And Jackson pointed to the Texas School Book Depository located at Elm and Houston Streets?

Mr. DILLARD. That's right.

Mr. BALL. And you looked up at the building and you did not see a rifle protruding from any window?

Mr. DILLARD. I did not see a rifle.

Mr. BALL. But you did take two photographs?

Mr. DILLARD. Correct.

Mr. BALL. And you still have those negatives?

Mr. DILLARD. That's true.

Mr. BALL. Were you ever in a position where you could see anyone leave the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mr. DILLARD. Briefly, only in the very short time, perhaps a period of 3 or 4 minutes, that I was in the general area. After the third shot, I was probably not there over 3 or 4 minutes.

Mr. BALL. Did you see anybody leave the building?

Mr. DILLARD. To my knowledge; no.

Mr. BALL. I think that's everything. Will you waive signature on this?

Mr. DILLARD. Sure.

Mr. BALL. Thank you, sir.

Mr. DILLARD. That's all right, glad to help.

TESTIMONY OF JAMES ROBERT UNDERWOOD

The testimony of James Robert Underwood was taken at 11:25 a.m., on April 1, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BALL. Mr. Underwood, will you stand up and be sworn?

(Complying.)

Mr. BALL. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give before this Commission shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. UNDERWOOD. I do.

Mr. BALL. Will you state your name, please?

Mr. UNDERWOOD. My name is James Robert Underwood.

Mr. BALL. Your occupation?

Mr. UNDERWOOD. I am the assistant news director of KRLD-TV and radio in Dallas.

Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1963, you were in the motorcade, the Presidential motorcade?

Mr. UNDERWOOD. Yes, sir; I was three cars behind the President.

Mr. BALL. Who was in the car with you?

Mr. UNDERWOOD. There was a photographer from channel 5, WBAP-TV, whose name is James Darnell, and a photographer from the Dallas Morning News--I know his name but I can't think of it right now----

Mr. BALL. Tom Dillard?

Mr. UNDERWOOD. Yes; Tom Dillard, and a photographer from the Dallas Times-Herald whose name is Bob Jackson, also a photographer from WFAA-TV and I do not know his name. I heard it but I don't remember it.

Mr. BALL. There was a driver, also?

Mr. UNDERWOOD. Yes; the driver I later found out was a member of the department of public safety.

Mr. BALL. You are a photographer, also?

Mr. UNDERWOOD. Yes, sir; I wear many hats in my business but one of which is news photographer.

Mr. BALL. Did you have your camera with you that day?

Mr. UNDERWOOD. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. BALL. What is your experience; where were you born; where did you go to school; how did you get to get the experience that fit you for your present job? Just in your own words, tell me something about yourself.

Mr. UNDERWOOD. I was born in Oklahoma City, Okla., in 1922; I served in the Marine Corps from 1940 until 1943, almost 4 years, and after that I attended the University of Tulsa and after that I worked--I began working in radio as an announcer while I was going to college. When I got out of college, I went to Corpus Christi, Tex. That was about 1947 and I became program director and news director of a radio station in Corpus Christi and I stayed there until 1950 when I went to a station in Jacksonville, Fla., where I was also program director and news director, and in 1953, I came to Dallas, and I worked for a year and a half for WFAA-TV as an announcer, then I freelanced in television and radio from September of 1954 until November--and I have to count for a minute--6 years this November that would be until November 1958 when I went to work for KRLD-TV and Radio News and shortly thereafter I became assistant news director but I earned part of my living, I still freelance in television which is all freelance in television and I have a regular job which entails every type of reporting, including photography which I enjoy doing.

Mr. BALL. On the day of the assassination, you were in the motorcade with these men you mentioned and you think your car was third behind the Presidential car?

Mr. UNDERWOOD. Yes; and I thought it was six or seven. I shot sound on film of the President's arrival and Vice President's arrival at Dallas Love Field the morning he came in on the 22d and then I took off the rather cumbersome sound on film equipment and took my hand camera because I had an assigned place in the motorcade and I could not tell out there because of the many people I could not tell what position we were in. I could not see that far ahead to determine exactly where we were in the motorcade, although I knew we were in the front of it. The motorcade stopped once on the way downtown, this was briefly, and I jumped over this side--we were in a convertible--and ran toward the President's car and I was aware of the crowd and the motorcade immediately started and I ran back to the convertible, not wanting to be left, and looking afterward at the films that I took there, I could then count the cars there. I realized we were three behind him, according to my movies we took. When we turned onto Main Street downtown and headed west toward the scene of where the assassination took place, either the regulator or the mainspring in my camera broke and I was without a camera. I knew that we had two men, at least two men on the parade route who were on the street and would be filming the motorcade as we came by and I hoped to exchange my broken camera for one of theirs because I knew I could make more use of the one that would operate. The only problem was we went down Main Street so rapidly it would have been impossible to get anything from someone standing on the street and at Main and Record one of our men was stationed and I tried to holler at him my camera was broken and I wanted to switch and I started to and there was no point in it because we passed there that rapidly. I thought it was the fastest motorcade that passed through a crowd; this was really moving, as far as I was concerned. Then, we came to the scene where the shots were fired. Do you want me to go on?

Mr. BALL. From the time you turned, tell me what you observed after you made the turn at Main and Houston to drive north on Houston.

Mr. UNDERWOOD. After we turned onto Houston Street, the car I was in was about, as far as I can remember, about in the middle of the block or a little bit north of the center of the block, which is a short block, when I heard the first shot.

Mr. BALL. Between Main and Elm?

Mr. UNDERWOOD. Yes; between Main and Elm, closer to the Elm intersection, Elm and Houston intersection, when I heard the first shot fired. I thought it was an explosion. I have heard many rifles fired but it did not sound like a rifle to me. Evidently must have been a reverberation from the buildings or something. I believe I said to one of the other fellows it sounds like a giant firecracker and the car I was in was about in the intersection of Elm and Houston when I heard a second shot fired and moments later a third shot fired and I realized that they were by that time, the last two shots, I realized they were coming from overhead.

Mr. BALL. You realized they were coming from overhead and that would be from what source?

Mr. UNDERWOOD. That would be from the Texas School Book Depository Building.

Mr. BALL. It sounded like they were coming from that direction?

Mr. UNDERWOOD. Yes, sir; the last two. Now, the first was just a loud explosion but it sounded like a giant firecracker or something had gone off. By the time the third shot was fired, the car I was in stopped almost through the intersection in front of the Texas School Book Depository Building and I leaped out of the car before the car stopped. Bob Jackson from the Herald said he thought he saw a rifle in the window and I looked where he pointed and I saw nothing. Below the window he was pointing at, I saw two colored men leaning out there with their heads turned toward the top of the building, trying, I suppose, to determine where the shots were coming from.

Mr. BALL. What words did you hear Bob Jackson say?

Mr. UNDERWOOD. I don't know that I can remember exactly except I did hear him say words to the effect that "I saw a rifle" and I looked at that instant and I saw nothing myself. If he saw a rifle, I did not.

Mr. BALL. At that point when you looked, where was your car?

Mr. UNDERWOOD. Our car was in the intersection, in the intersection of Elm and Houston Street.

Mr. BALL. Had it made the turn yet?

Mr. UNDERWOOD. It had partially made the turn or had just begun to make the turn. Frankly, I was looking up and around and I saw at the same time people falling on the ground down the street toward the underpass and my first impression was some of these people falling to the ground had been shot.

Mr. BALL. Did your car stop?

Mr. UNDERWOOD. Our car stopped and the minute it stopped I leaped out of the car.

Mr. BALL. Where was your car when it stopped?

Mr. UNDERWOOD. Right in the intersection, perhaps just past the intersection, turned onto Elm.

Mr. BALL. Did you get out before the car parked along the curb?

Mr. UNDERWOOD. Yes, sir; the minute it stopped, I leaped over the side.

Mr. BALL. What did you do?

Mr. UNDERWOOD. I left my camera in the car, the camera that was broken, and ran as fast as I could back toward the man we had at Record and Main in order to get a camera. There I was without a camera; the only thought I had was to get a camera.

Mr. BALL. Did you get one?

Mr. UNDERWOOD. Yes; I ran the full block back to Main Street and our man there, name of Sanderson, was running down Main toward Houston. He was running to meet me, although he didn't know what was happening and that my camera was broke. Suddenly, motorcycles and sirens had been turned on police cars and were all headed toward Main. I met him just around the corner on Main past Houston and grabbed his camera and said, "Someone had been shooting at the President." I didn't know this but I assumed it happened. I took his camera and got back to the scene. When I got back to the scene, most of the people in the area were running up the grassy slope toward the railway yards just behind the Texas School Book Depository Building. Actually, I assumed, which is the only thing I could do, I assumed perhaps who had fired the shots had run in that direction. I recognized at least a dozen deputy sheriffs running also in that area--it seems to me that many, and I ran up there and took some films and they were running through the railroad yard and they very quickly found nothing and I was having, frankly, a hard time breathing because I had done more running in those few minutes than I am used to doing. I gasped out to a couple people--I don't know who they are--that I thought the shots came from that building and one of the fellows in the car with me said they had seen a rifle barrel in the building.

Mr. BALL. This group of men were deputy sheriffs?

Mr. UNDERWOOD. For the most part, yes; I don't think I could recall--Lemmy Lewis I see in my mind, but I am not sure Lemmy was there. This was a kaleidoscope of things happening. In my business, you need to make a quick appraisal of what is happening if you are going to shoot pictures of it. I was confused and out of breath and unbelieving of what happened.

Mr. BALL. Where did you go from the grassy slopes?

Mr. UNDERWOOD. I went from the railroad yards--actually, I was back in the track area--I went immediately with these men at a run to the Texas School Depository.

Mr. BALL. Which entrance?

Mr. UNDERWOOD. The front entrance.

Mr. BALL. On Elm?

Mr. UNDERWOOD. Yes; and I ran down there and I think I took some pictures of some men--yes, I know I did, going in and out of the building. By that time there was one police officer there and he was a three-wheeled motorcycle officer and a little colored boy whose last name I remember as Eunice.

Mr. BALL. Euins?

Mr. UNDERWOOD. It may have been Euins. It was difficult to understand when he said his name. He was telling the motorcycle officer he had seen a colored man lean out of the window upstairs and he had a rifle. He was telling this to the officer and the officer took him over and put him in a squad car. By that time, motorcycle officers were arriving, homicide officers were arriving and I went over and asked this boy if he had seen someone with a rifle and he said "Yes, sir." I said, "Were they white or black?" He said, "It was a colored man." I said, "Are you sure it was a colored man?" He said, "Yes sir" and I asked him his name and the only thing I could understand was what I thought his name was Eunice.

Mr. BALL. Was he about 15?

Mr. UNDERWOOD. I couldn't tell his age; looked to me to be younger. I would have expected him to be about 10 or 11 years old.

Mr. BALL. Then what did you do?

Mr. UNDERWOOD. I stayed in front of the building; actually, I stayed in the intersection of Elm and Houston and took movies of police arriving and fire--and I think some fire equipment arrived on the scene, one firetruck or two firetrucks, I'm not sure, and I just shot some general film on the area. I have since searched that film to see if I could see any face in it that would have been important to this.

Mr. BALL. Leaving the building?

Mr. UNDERWOOD. Yes; but I haven't found any except that of officers arriving and just people generally in the area; none of it, though, that you could--I spent several days at this, I guess during January when things had calmed down. I was on the side street of the building, around the front of the building and in the intersection for the next 10 minutes, then I went across the street to the courthouse and phoned several news reports to C.B.S. in New York and described what was taking place in the building at that time. There were firemen with ladders in front of the building and officers running in and out and they cordoned off the building and kept the spectators out of the building, but there was quite a time lapse between the time the shots were fired and the time anyone checked the building. The main effort was to run to the railroad yards instead of the School Book Depository.

Mr. BALL. I think that's all. Mr. Underwood, this will be typed up and you can waive signature if you wish or you can sign it if you wish.

Mr. UNDERWOOD. I don't have to sign it. I will waive signature.

TESTIMONY OF JAMES N. CRAWFORD

The testimony of James N. Crawford was taken at 11:15 a.m., on April 1, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BALL. Mr. Crawford, I'm Joe Ball and this is Lillian Johnson.

Mr. CRAWFORD. Glad to know you. I know Lillian Johnson. How is Irving, by the way?

Mr. BALL. Will you stand up, please, and hold up your right hand?

Mr. CRAWFORD (complying).

Mr. BALL. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give before this Commission shall be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. CRAWFORD. I swear.

Mr. BALL. My name is Joe Ball. I'm staff counsel with the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy and I have been authorized to question you and ask you to give us such information as you have as to the facts of the assassination and those things that you observed on November 22, 1963. Will you state your name for the court reporter?

Mr. CRAWFORD. My name is James N. Crawford.

Mr. BALL. What is your occupation?

Mr. CRAWFORD. I am deputy district clerk.

Mr. BALL. You received a request from the Commission in writing, did you not, requesting you to give this testimony?

Mr. CRAWFORD. I did.

Mr. BALL. You received it some time last week?

Mr. CRAWFORD. Actually, it came to the office Saturday. I did not receive it until Monday.

Mr. BALL. That will be Monday, March 30?

Mr. CRAWFORD. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Where were you born?

Mr. CRAWFORD. I was born in Greenville, Texas.

Mr. BALL. What was your general education?

Mr. CRAWFORD. High school in Greenville, Texas, and college at Texas A. & M.

Mr. BALL. What did you do after that, just a general sketch of some of your occupations?

Mr. CRAWFORD. I worked for the Texas Company in New Orleans and have been in and out of the furniture business and in the oil business here in Dallas until I went with the county.

Mr. BALL. How long have you been with the county of Dallas?

Mr. CRAWFORD. About 10 years.

Mr. BALL. You are a deputy county clerk there?

Mr. CRAWFORD. District clerk.

Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1963, about around 12 o'clock or so, where were you?

Mr. CRAWFORD. I was in the office of the district clerk.

Mr. BALL. Did you later leave and go out into the street?

Mr. CRAWFORD. About 12:25, we left the office and went out to the corner of Houston and Elm.

Mr. BALL. You went with whom?

Mr. CRAWFORD. Mary Ann Mitchell.

Mr. BALL. She works in the office with you?

Mr. CRAWFORD. She is in the office with me.

Mr. BALL. What is her occupation in the office?

Mr. CRAWFORD. Assistant to the district clerk.

(At this point, Mr. James Underwood enters the hearing.)

Mr. BALL. Where is your office located in Dallas?

Mr. CRAWFORD. It's located on the ground floor of the Records Building.

Mr. BALL. What street?

Mr. CRAWFORD. That's Record and Elm--that's Commerce, isn't it, Jim?

Mr. UNDERWOOD. What's that?

Mr. CRAWFORD. What is the street just north of the courthouse--that's Elm.

Mr. UNDERWOOD. It's bordered by Elm, Main, Record, and Houston.

Mr. BALL. You are located on the corner of----

Mr. CRAWFORD. Elm.

Mr. BALL. Elm and----

Mr. CRAWFORD. And Record.

Mr. BALL. And Record, and then you walked which direction?

Mr. CRAWFORD. Well, actually, the courthouse is--I suppose our office would be considered on Elm and Houston.

Mr. BALL. When you left your office, you walked on what street?

Mr. CRAWFORD. Walked on Elm to Houston, rather than Record.

Mr. BALL. In other words, you walked west on Elm towards Houston?

Mr. CRAWFORD. Right.

Mr. BALL. To what corner of Elm and Houston?

Mr. CRAWFORD. That would be the corner of the courthouse. Do you want the direction of the intersection?

Mr. BALL. Yes, where was it? Southeast, northwest corner of Elm?

Mr. CRAWFORD. It's the northwest corner of the courthouse.

Mr. BALL. The northwest corner of the courthouse--it's the southeast corner of the intersection?

Mr. CRAWFORD. Southeast corner of the intersection.

Mr. BALL. Where were you when you watched the President pass?

Mr. CRAWFORD. I was at that location.

Mr. BALL. Which corner of the intersection?

Mr. CRAWFORD. The southeast corner of the intersection.

Mr. BALL. Where was the Texas School Book Depository Building from where you were standing?

Mr. CRAWFORD. It would be on the northwest corner of the intersection.

Mr. BALL. Directly across?

Mr. CRAWFORD. Yes; right.

Mr. BALL. Did you have a good view at that point of the south exposure of the Texas School Book Depository?

Mr. CRAWFORD. I had a very good angle.

Mr. BALL. Did you see the President's car pass?

Mr. CRAWFORD. I did.

Mr. BALL. And just tell me in your own words what you observed after that?

Mr. CRAWFORD. As I observed the parade, I believe there was a car leading the President's car, followed by the President's car and followed, I suppose, by the Vice President's car and, in turn, by the Secret Service in a yellow closed sedan. The doors of the sedan were open. It was after the Secret Service sedan had gone around the corner that I heard the first report and at that time I thought it was a backfire of a car but, in analyzing the situation, it could not have been a backfire of a car because it would have had to have been the President's car or some car in the cavalcade there. The second shot followed some seconds, a little time elapsed after the first one, and followed very quickly by the third one. I could not see the President's car----

Mr. BALL. At that time?