Part 24

Mr. PRICE. This is a summary of the activities of Bertha L. Lozano, who is a registered nurse in the emergency room.

Mr. SPECTER. Price Exhibit No. 21?

Mr. PRICE. Exhibit No. 21 is a summary of the activities of Pat Hutton, who is an aide in the emergency room.

Mr. SPECTER. I'll hand you Price Exhibit No. 22.

Mr. PRICE. I'm sorry, I said Hutton was an aide. She's an R.N.--in registration--a nurse.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is Exhibit No. 22?

Mr. PRICE. It is a summary of the activities of Shirley Randall, an aide in the emergency room.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is Price Exhibit No. 23?

Mr. PRICE. A summary of the activities of Rosa M. Majors, an aide in the emergency room.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is Price Exhibit 24?

Mr. PRICE. Price Exhibit 24 is a summary of the activities of Jill Pomeroy, who is a ward clerk in the emergency room.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is Price Exhibit No. 25?

Mr. PRICE. A summary of the activities of David Sanders, who is an orderly in the emergency room.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is Price Exhibit No. 26?

Mr. PRICE. Exhibit 26 is a summary of the activities of Tommy Dunn, who is an orderly in the emergency room.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is Price Exhibit No. 27?

Mr. PRICE. A summary of the activities of Joe Richards, an orderly in the emergency room.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is Price Exhibit No. 28?

Mr. PRICE. Exhibit No. 28 is a statement of the activities of Jeanette Standridge, an R.N. in the emergency room.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is Price Exhibit 29?

Mr. PRICE. A summary of the activities of O. P. Wright, who is the personnel director and a director of hospital security, and reports from the individual guards under his supervision.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is Price Exhibit No. 30?

Mr. PRICE. A summary of the activities of Margaret Henchliffe, who is assigned to the emergency room.

Mr. SPECTER. What is Price Exhibit No. 31?

Mr. PRICE. A summary of the activities of Doris Nelson, who is the emergency room supervisor.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is Price Exhibit No. 32?

Mr. PRICE. A summary of the activities of Robert G. Holcomb, who is assistant administrator in charge of correlating the professional services of the hospital.

Mr. SPECTER. What is Price Exhibit No. 33?

Mr. PRICE. This is a summary of my personal impressions of the events that transpired on November 24.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is Price Exhibit 34?

Mr. PRICE. This is a summary of my activities at the office Saturday and Sunday, the 23d and 24th.

Mr. SPECTER. Are those all of the summaries of those who made reports to you?

Mr. PRICE. Yes; they are. These are primarily the summaries of individuals who were involved in the care of our late President, in the care of Governor Connally, and in the care of Oswald, who were requested to make these summaries to my office as their activities would not normally be stated on patients' charts or in other records of the hospital.

Mr. SPECTER. I now hand you Price Exhibit No. 35 and ask you if that is a photostatic copy of the report of Dr. Charles Gregory, after it was altered in a few minor respects as shown on the face of the record?

Mr. PRICE. Well, if I may change this terminology?

Mr. SPECTER. Sure.

Mr. PRICE. This is a copy of Dr. Charles Gregory's records as it appears in Governor Connally's charts, which he corrected prior to signing the transcript. What I was trying to say, or wanted to make clear, was that frequently in transcribing, the medical secretaries who transcribe operative records, they make mistakes, and I wanted to be sure that there was no suggestion that the record was altered, when what Dr. Gregory has done was to write in corrections that were noticed at the time he read it and signed it.

Mr. SPECTER. I understand it was transcribed, and when he reviewed it before signing it he noticed inaccuracies in the transcription.

Mr. PRICE. That's right. This is correct. Your phraseology is much better than mine.

Mr. SPECTER. Thank you very much, Mr. Price.

Mr. PRICE. Thank you, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. That's all. I wanted to put all of these in the record, Jack, to show that they are duly authenticated by the appropriate custodian of the records.

Mr. PRICE. Well, I wanted to be sure that there was no hint that the record had been altered here.

Mr. SPECTER. Yes; I understand that. I think you are absolutely right on that. Thank you.

Mr. PRICE. All right. Thank you.

TESTIMONY OF MALCOLM O. COUCH

The testimony of Malcolm O. Couch was taken at 9:43 a.m., on April 1, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BELIN. Will you please rise and raise your right hand and be sworn, sir?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you're about to give will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. COUCH. I do.

Mr. BELIN. Be seated, please.

Mr. BELIN. You are Malcolm O. Couch?

Mr. COUCH. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Couch, we are taking your deposition here in Dallas to record your testimony for the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy--is that correct?

Mr. COUCH. That's right, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Do you request that an attorney be present here to represent you?

Mr. COUCH. No.

Mr. BELIN. We have written you about the taking of this deposition and I assume that you have waived notice of the taking of the deposition--is that correct?

Mr. COUCH. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Couch, you have the right to look at the deposition and sign it, or you can follow the general custom and rely on the court reporter and waive the signing of the deposition--whatever you would like to do. If you would like to sign it, you can; if you want to waive signing it, you can also. Whatever you want to do.

Mr. COUCH. All right. I'll sign it.

Mr. BELIN. You want to sign it?

Mr. COUCH. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. Couch, where do you live?

Mr. COUCH. 4215 Live Oak in Dallas.

Mr. BELIN. And how old are you?

Mr. COUCH. Twenty-five.

Mr. BELIN. And were you born in Texas?

Mr. COUCH. Yes; born in Dallas and raised in Dallas.

Mr. BELIN. And what is your educational background? Did you go through high school?

Mr. COUCH. I went to Woodrow Wilson High School here in Dallas, I have a Bachelor of Arts degree from John Brown University; and I will receive a Master of Theology degree this May from Dallas Seminary.

Mr. BELIN. You then plan, when you receive your Master of Theology degree, to become a minister?

Mr. COUCH. I will be ordained. I don't know if I will have a church or not, but I will be ordained.

Mr. BELIN. Are you married, Mr. Couch?

Mr. COUCH. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Any family at all?

Mr. COUCH. Yes; one boy--since last Friday.

Mr. BELIN. Since last Friday? Well, congratulations to you. I assume your wife and baby are doing well?

Mr. COUCH. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What did you major in at college?

Mr. COUCH. Social science.

Mr. BELIN. What is your present occupation, Mr. Couch?

Mr. COUCH. Part-time television news cameraman with WFAA-TV in Dallas.

Mr. BELIN. When you say "part time," do you mean you're going to school part time----

Mr. COUCH. Right.

Mr. BELIN. And spending part time with WFAA-TV?

Mr. COUCH. Right.

Mr. BELIN. How long have you been employed by WFAA-TV?

Mr. COUCH. Uh--for 2 years straight. But I worked with them full and part time, I believe, back in--starting in 1955 to 1957.

Mr. BELIN. And then what happened in 1957?

Mr. COUCH. I went to college.

Mr. BELIN. You went to college full time?

Mr. COUCH. Right.

Mr. BELIN. And then you got out in 1961?

Mr. COUCH. I got out in January 1960.

Mr. BELIN. January 1960?

Mr. COUCH. Yes--and came back to Dallas and went into graduate school here.

Mr. BELIN. And when you came back to Dallas, you went to work with WFAA-TV?

Mr. COUCH. No; no. I began going to Dallas Seminary, but--uh--I worked for Keitz & Herndon Film Studios--[spelling] K-e-i-t-z and H-e-r-n-d-o-n.

Mr. BELIN. Have you had any other jobs since you've gotten out of college other than those?

Mr. COUCH. I worked a year for Camp Elhar, as executive director of the camp. It's a Christian camp here in Dallas.

Mr. BELIN. Is this for youngsters?

Mr. COUCH. Right.

Mr. BELIN. Boys and girls?

Mr. COUCH. Right.

Mr. BELIN. And when did that employment take place?

Mr. COUCH. Uh--I believe it was September 1961--and ended in September 1962. I started working for WFAA in March of 1962. And I've been there 2 years.

Mr. BELIN. In other words, part of the time while you were working with this camp, you were also part time with WFAA-TV?

Mr. COUCH. Right.

Mr. BELIN. And then when you started to work on your Masters in Theology, you stopped working?

Mr. COUCH. No. I started work on my Masters when I came back from college----

Mr. BELIN. Oh, I see.

Mr. COUCH. In January of 1960. It's a 4-year course.

Mr. BELIN. I see.

Mr. Couch, I want to take you back to November 22, 1963, and ask you whether or not you were employed by WFAA-TV at that time?

Mr. COUCH. Yes; I was.

Mr. BELIN. In connection with your employment, what is the fact as to whether or not you had anything to do with the coverage of the visit of President Kennedy to Dallas?

Mr. COUCH. Yes; I did.

Mr. BELIN. Could you just state what your duties were and what you did that day?

Mr. COUCH. I was assigned to cover the arrival of the President at the airport and to ride in the motorcade through town and, then, to ride with the motorcade of the President back to the airport when he left.

Mr. BELIN. Now, when you were assigned, were you assigned as a reporter, as a photographer, or in what capacity?

Mr. COUCH. As a photographer.

Mr. BELIN. Would this be moving picture film or still shots, or both?

Mr. COUCH. Moving only.

Mr. BELIN. Moving picture film only?

Mr. COUCH. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Were you at Love Field in Dallas when the President arrived?

Mr. COUCH. That's right; uh-huh.

Mr. BELIN. Did you take moving pictures of him there?

Mr. COUCH. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. Then you got in the motorcade?

Mr. COUCH. Right; uh-huh.

Mr. BELIN. And the motorcade proceeded, first, from Love Field toward downtown Dallas--is that correct?

Mr. COUCH. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember the route you took through downtown Dallas?

Mr. COUCH. Uh--roughly. It was out through the airport parkway to Mockingbird Lane to Lemmon, down Lemmon to Turtle Creek, down Turtle Creek to--uh--I'm not sure of those streets. I think McKinney or Cedar Springs. I'm not sure.

Mr. BELIN. Well, if you aren't particularly sure--okay. What about when you got downtown to the center of Dallas? Do you remember what streets you went on?

Mr. COUCH. Yes. Well, we came in on Harwood and then turned right on Main at the City Hall.

Mr. BELIN. And then you took Main to where?

Mr. COUCH. Main down to--uh--Houston.

Mr. BELIN. All right. You were heading, now, west on Main down to Houston?

Mr. COUCH. Right.

Mr. BELIN. About where in the motorcade was your car? Do you remember offhand?

Mr. COUCH. Uh-uh--roughly--and I'm not sure--the fifth or sixth car back from the lead car. I'm not sure which one.

Mr. BELIN. Now, do you remember, as you approached Houston Street on Main about how fast the motorcade was going?

Mr. COUCH. I would estimate--uh--20 miles an hour. The speed had picked up some. Everyone gave a sigh a relief that--uh--it was over; and one of the cameramen, I remember, his camera broke and another one was out of film. Everyone was relaxed. And--uh--of course, then we turned north on Houston, and it was there that we heard the first gunshot.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Before we get to the first gunshot--do you remember who was riding in the car with you?

Mr. COUCH. Uh--an best I can, it was Jimmy Darnell--Channel 5: uh--Bob Jackson--Times Herald; Jim Underwood--KRLD-TV; and the fellow--uh--Mr. Dillard--Tom Dillard--Dallas Morning News. And the driver of the car; I don't know his name.

Mr. BELIN. Were you sitting in the front or the back seat?

Mr. COUCH. Sitting in the back.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember anything about your position as to the way you were sitting in the back?

Mr. COUCH. Yes; I was almost in the middle and sitting on the--it was a convertible--and sitting on the back of the back seat, with my feet on the seat.

Mr. BELIN. Your feet were on the seat--and you would be sitting on the top of the back seat?

Mr. COUCH. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. There were three of you in the back?

Mr. COUCH. Yes; three in the back.

Mr. BELIN. And were you in the middle or to the right or to the left?

Mr. COUCH. I was about in the middle.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Now, as you turned north on Houston, do you remember about how fast you were going?

Mr. COUCH. Well, I'd say still that--of course, allowing for the turn--that the pace of the motorcade was about the same. We were clipping along and, as I said, I do have films after we had turned the other corner, and you could still see that the motorcade was moving fairly fast.

Mr. BELIN. Were there any motorcycle policemen riding alongside the motorcade, that you remember?

Mr. COUCH. Yes; there were.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember the names of any of those people?

Mr. COUCH. No; I don't.

Mr. BELIN. Were they two-wheel or three-wheel motorcycles?

Mr. COUCH. Two-wheel.

Mr. BELIN. Was there one riding alongside of your car?

Mr. COUCH. Uh--he was. I remember distinctly one was on my right going down Main. They would jockey from time to time in different positions. As I recall, on Houston, I don't remember any beside us on Houston. As I say, they would fade back and forth. Sometimes they would be; sometimes they wouldn't.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Now, as you turned onto Houston, you said that you heard what you described as a----

Mr. COUCH. It sounded like a motorcycle backfire at first--the first time we heard it--the first shot.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember about where your car was at the time you heard the first noise?

Mr. COUCH. I would say--uh--15 or 20 feet from the turn--from off of Main onto Houston.

Mr. BELIN. Fifteen or 20 feet from the turn?

Mr. COUCH. We had already completed the turn.

Mr. BELIN. After you had completed the turn, then 15 or 20 feet further on you heard the first shot--the first noise?

Mr. COUCH. Because, I remember I was talking and we were laughing and I was looking back to a fellow on my--that would be on my right--I don't know who it was--we were joking. We had just made the turn. And I heard the first shot.

Mr. BELIN. What happened--or what did anyone say?

Mr. COUCH. As I recall, nothing--there was no particular reaction; uh--nothing unusual. Maybe everybody sort of looked around a little, but didn't think much of it. And--uh--then, in a few seconds, I guess from 4-5 seconds later, or even less, we heard the second shot. And then we began to look--uh, not out of thinking necessarily it was a gunshot, but we began to look in front of us--in the motorcade in front of us. And, as I recall, I didn't have any particular fears or feelings at the second shot. By the third shot, I felt that it was a rifle. Almost sure it was. And, as I said, the shots or the noises were fairly close together they were fairly even in sound--and--uh, by then, one could recognize, or if he had heard a high-powered rifle, he would feel that it was a high-powered rifle. You would get that impression.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember where your vehicle was by the time you heard the third shot?

Mr. COUCH. I'd say we were about 50 feet from making--or maybe 60 feet--from making the left-hand turn onto Elm.

Mr. BELIN. Did you hear more than three shots?

Mr. COUCH. No.

Mr. BELIN. Had you heard any noises, what you'd describe like a motorcycle backfiring or firecrackers, prior to the time that you made your turn north onto Houston?

Mr. COUCH. Well, way uptown on Main Street, a motorcycle did backfire right beside us--and we all jumped and had a good laugh over it. And the three shots sounded, at first--the first impression was that this was another motorcycle backfiring.

Mr. BELIN. Now, between the first and the second shots, is there anything else you remember doing or you remember hearing or seeing that you haven't related here at this time?

Mr. COUCH. Nothing unusual between the shots. Uh--as I say, the first shot, I had no particular impression; but the second shot, I remember turning--several of us turning--and looking ahead of us. It was unusual for a motorcycle to backfire that close together, it seemed like. And after the third shot, Bob Jackson, who was, as I recall, on my right, yelled something like, "Look up in the window! There's the rifle!"

And I remember glancing up to a window on the far right, which at the time impressed me as the sixth or seventh floor, and seeing about a foot of a rifle being--the barrel brought into the window.

I saw no one in that window--just a quick 1-second glance at the barrel.

Mr. BELIN. In what building was that?

Mr. COUCH. This was the Texas Book Depository Building.

Mr. BELIN. At the corner of Houston and Elm in Dallas?

Mr. COUCH. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. You said it was the sixth or the seventh floor. Do you know how many floors there are in that building--or did you know at that time?

Mr. COUCH. No; I didn't know at that time.

Mr. BELIN. Did it look like to you he was on the top floor or next to the top floor or the second to the top floor--or----

Mr. COUCH. It looked like it was the top. And when you first glance at the building, you're thrown off a little as to the floors because there's a ridge--uh, it almost looks like a structure added onto the top of the building, about one story above. So, you have to recount.

Of course, at the time, I wasn't counting, but----

Mr. BELIN. You just remember, to the best of your recollection, that it was either the sixth or seventh floor?

Mr. COUCH. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. And when you say, "the far right"----

Mr. COUCH. That would be the far east.

Mr. BELIN. The far east of what side of the building?

Mr. COUCH. The south side of the building.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember whether or not that window at which you saw the rifle, you say, being withdrawn--first of all, could you tell it was a rifle?

Mr. COUCH. Yes, I'd say you could. Uh--if a person was just standing on the--as much as I saw, if the factors that did happen, did not happen, you might not say that it was a rifle. In other words, if you just saw an object being pulled back into a window, you wouldn't think anything of it. But with the excitement intense right after that third shot and what Bob yelled, my impression was that it was a rifle.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see anything more than a steel barrel of a rifle?

Mr. COUCH. No.

Mr. BELIN. Could you tell whether or not the rifle had any telescopic sight on it?

Mr. COUCH. No.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see any of the stock of the rifle?

Mr. COUCH. No.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see any person pulling the rifle?

Mr. COUCH. No.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember whether or not, if you can remember, the window was open or halfway open or what?

Mr. COUCH. It was open. To say that it was half or three-quarters open, I wouldn't say. My impression was that it was all the way open--but that was an impression.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see anything else in the window that you remember--any boxes or anything like that?

Mr. COUCH. No; I didn't.

Mr. BELIN. You didn't notice whether there was or was not--or do you definitely remember that you did not notice any?

Mr. COUCH. No; I didn't notice anything.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see any other people in any other windows in the building?

Mr. COUCH. Yes; I recall seeing--uh--some people standing in some of the other windows--about, roughly, third or fourth floor in the middle of the south side. I recall one--it looked like a Negro boy with a white T-shirt leaning out one of those windows looking up--up to the windows up above him.

Mr. BELIN. Uh-huh. Is there anything else you can remember about the building?

Mr. COUCH. No; that's just about the only impression I had at the moment.

Mr. BELIN. Now, you related what you heard Bob Jackson say. Did anyone else say anything in the car?

Mr. COUCH. No one else said anything, that I recall, about a rifle, or anything.

Mr. BELIN. Where was the car when you saw this rifle being withdrawn?

Mr. COUCH. I'd say about 25 feet before we made the turn onto Elm. Our car was facing the south side of the building.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Then what happened after Bob Jackson made his exclamation and you saw what you just related?

Mr. COUCH. Well, I picked up my camera. As I recall, I had it in my hand, but it was down leaning against my legs. And I picked it up and made a quick glance at a setting and raised it to my eye. And--uh--you can see from my film that we're just turning the corner. We start the turn and we turn the corner, and you can see people running. As I recall, there's a quick glance at the front entrance of the Texas Depository Book Building. You can see people running and you can see about the first three cars, maybe four, in front of me as we complete the turn.

And then I took pictures of--uh--a few people on my left and a group, or a sweeping, of the crowd on my right standing on the corner.

Mr. BELIN. Did you take any pictures of the School Book Depository Building itself?

Mr. COUCH. Not of the south side at that moment.

After we went, say, 50 to 75 feet on down Elm, uh--we began to hang on because the driver picked up speed. We got down under the--I think there's three trestles there, three crossings underneath the--uh--at the very bottom of Elm Street----

Mr. BELIN. Is that what they call the triple-underpass?

Mr. COUCH. Right.

And--uh--I think, as I recall, right after we'd made the turn on Elm, one or two of the fellows jumped out. But after we got all the way down underneath the three trestles we finally persuaded the driver--who wasn't too anxious to stop--to stop and--uh--we all jumped out.

And I ran, I guess it was about 75 yards or a little more back up to the School Depository Building and took some sweeping pictures of the crowd standing around. I didn't stay there long.

Mr. BELIN. Did you take any pictures of the Depository Building entrance?

Mr. COUCH. No--uh----

Mr. BELIN. When you came back up there?

Mr. COUCH. Not with determination. I cannot recall at this moment whether some of my pictures I took when I ran back might have a sweeping shot of the entrance through a wide angle lens. But not with determination. I didn't plan to take pictures of it.

Mr. BELIN. Would these shots--these wide angle lens shots, if anyone were standing in front of the building or leaving the building at that time, would you be able to identify them, or would they be too far away?

Mr. COUCH. They would be too far away. Possibly if the frames were blown up, one might determine if someone was standing there--identify someone.

Mr. BELIN. About how many minutes after the last shot would you say you came back to take these pictures?

Mr. COUCH. Well, I'd say it took me--uh--maybe a minute and a half to get back to there after this third shot--because we weren't but seconds getting down underneath that underpass after we made the turn.

Mr. BELIN. Uh-huh.

Mr. COUCH. And--uh--I jumped out and ran back. So, I'd say not over a minute and a half.

Mr. BELIN. And then you started taking general sweeping shots of the area?

Mr. COUCH. Right.

Mr. BELIN. Were most of the shots directed at people along the side there as to what their reactions were, or were most of the shots directed at the School Book Depository Building?

Mr. COUCH. Mostly of the people standing around, the policemen and shots such as this.

Mr. BELIN. In what direction, generally, would the camera have been pointed, and where would you have been standing when you took these pictures?