Part 21

Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, would you mark in ink with my pen the stretcher which you pushed off of the elevator?

Mr. TOMLINSON. I think that it was this one right here (indicating).

Mr. SPECTER. Will you draw the outline of it in ink and mark an "A" right in the center of that?

(Witness complied with request of Counsel Specter.)

Mr. SPECTER. Now, would you mark in ink the position of the stretcher which was already on the first floor?

Mr. TOMLINSON. This was the ground floor.

Mr. SPECTER. Pardon me, on the ground floor? Is there a different designation for the first floor?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Where is the first floor?

Mr. TOMLINSON. One above the ground. We have basement, ground, first, second, and third on that elevator.

Mr. SPECTER. What floor was Governor Connally taken to, if you know?

Mr. TOMLINSON. He was on two, he was in the operating rooms up on two. That's our surgical suites up there.

Mr. SPECTER. And what level is the emergency entrance of the hospital on?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Well, it's the ground floor--it's there at the back of the hospital, you see, it's built on the incline there.

Mr. SPECTER. And the elevator which you found in this area was on the ground floor?

Mr. TOMLINSON. The elevator?

Mr. SPECTER. The stretcher.

Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you mark with a "B" the stretcher which was present at the time you pushed stretcher "A" off of the elevator?

Mr. TOMLINSON. (Witness complied with the request of Counsel Specter.) I believe that's it.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, what, if anything, did you later observe as to stretcher "B"?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Well, sir; I don't recall how long it had been exactly, but an intern or doctor, I didn't know which, came to use the men's room there in the elevator lobby.

Mr. SPECTER. Where is the men's room located on this diagram?

Mr. TOMLINSON. It would be right there (indicating) beside the "B" stretcher.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you draw in ink there the outline of that room in a general way?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Well, I really don't know.

Mr. SPECTER. And would you mark that with the letter "C"?

(Witness complied with request of Counsel Specter.)

Mr. SPECTER. That's fine. What happened when that gentleman came to use the men's room?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Well, he pushed the stretcher out from the wall to get in, and then when he came out he just walked off and didn't push the stretcher back up against the wall, so I pushed it out of the way where we would have clear area in front of the elevator.

Mr. SPECTER. And where did you push it to?

Mr. TOMLINSON. I pushed it back up against the wall.

Mr. SPECTER. What, if anything, happened then?

Mr. TOMLINSON. I bumped the wall and a spent cartridge or bullet rolled out that apparently had been lodged under the edge of the mat.

Mr. SPECTER. And that was from which stretcher?

Mr. TOMLINSON. I believe that it was "B".

Mr. SPECTER. And what was on "B", if you recall; if anything?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Well, at one end they had one or two sheets rolled up; I didn't examine them. They were bloody. They were rolled up on the east end of it and there were a few surgical instruments on the opposite end and a sterile pack or so.

Mr. SPECTER. A sterile what?

Mr. TOMLINSON. A sterile pack.

Mr. SPECTER. What do you mean by that?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Like gauze or something like that.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there an alcohol sponge?

Mr. TOMLINSON. There could have been.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there a roll of 1-inch tape?

Mr. TOMLINSON. No; I don't think so.

Mr. SPECTER. Were there any empty packets from hypodermic needles?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Well, now, it had some paper there but I don't know what they came from.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, Mr. Tomlinson, are you sure that it was stretcher "A" that you took out of the elevator and not stretcher "B"?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Well, really, I can't be positive, just to be perfectly honest about it, I can't be positive, because I really didn't pay that much attention to it. The stretcher was on the elevator and I pushed it off of there and I believe we made one or two calls up before I straightened out the stretcher up against the wall.

Mr. SPECTER. When you say "one or two calls," what do you mean by that?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Went to pick up the technician from the second floor to bring him down to the ground floor to get blood.

Mr. SPECTER. And when you say before you straightened the stretcher up, what do you mean by that?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Well, we just rolled them out of the way where we had some room on the elevator--that's a small elevator.

Mr. SPECTER. So, when you rolled them out of the elevator, when you rolled the stretcher out of the elevator, did you place it against the wall at that time?

Mr. TOMLINSON. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Were both of these stretchers constructed in the same way?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Similar--yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe the appearance of the stretcher with reference to what it was made of and how many shelves it had, and that sort of thing?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Well, it's made of tubed steel with a flat iron frame on the top where you lay the patient and it has one shelf down between the four wheels.

Mr. SPECTER. Does it have any bumpers on it?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes, and it has rubber bumpers.

Mr. SPECTER. Does it have any rail to keep the patient on?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes; they have the rails on the side made of tubed steel. The majority of them have those.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, just before we started this deposition, before I placed you under oath and before the court reporter started to take down my questions and your answers, you and I had a brief talk, did we not?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And we discussed in a general way the information which you have testified about, did we not?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And at the time we started our discussion, it was your recollection at that point that the bullet came off of stretcher A, was it not?

Mr. TOMLINSON. B.

Mr. SPECTER. Pardon me, stretcher B, but it was stretcher A that you took off of the elevator.

Mr. TOMLINSON. I believe that's right.

Mr. SPECTER. But there is no question but that at the time we started our discussion a few minutes before the court reporter started to take it down, that your best recollection was that it was stretcher A which came off of the elevator?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes, I believe that was it--yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you been interviewed about this matter by any other Federal representative?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Who interviewed you about it?

Mr. TOMLINSON. I don't remember the name of either one of them, but one was the FBI man and one was the Secret Service man.

Mr. SPECTER. How many times did the FBI interview you?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Once.

Mr. SPECTER. How many times did the Secret Service interview you?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Once.

Mr. SPECTER. When did the FBI interview you?

Mr. TOMLINSON. I believe they were the first to do it.

Mr. SPECTER. Approximately when was that?

Mr. TOMLINSON. I think that was the latter part of November.

Mr. SPECTER. And when did the Secret Service interview you?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Approximately a week later, the first part of December.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, do you recollect what the FBI man asked you about?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Just about where I found the bullet.

Mr. SPECTER. Did he ask you about these stretchers?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Well, he asked me about the stretchers, yes, just about the same thing we've gone over here.

Mr. SPECTER. What did the Secret Service man ask you about?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Approximately the same thing, only, we've gone into more detail here.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you tell the Secret Service man about which stretcher you took off of the elevator?

Mr. TOMLINSON. I told him that I was not sure, and I am not--I'm not sure of it, but as I said, I would be going against the oath which I took a while ago, because I am definitely not sure.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you remember if you told the Secret Service man which stretcher you thought you took off of the elevator?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Well, we talked about taking a stretcher off of the elevator, but then when it comes down on an oath, I wouldn't say for sure, I really don't remember.

Mr. SPECTER. And do you recollect whether or not you told the Secret Service man which stretcher you took off of the elevator?

Mr. TOMLINSON. What do you mean?

Mr. SPECTER. You say you can't really take an oath today to be sure whether it was stretcher A or stretcher B that you took off the elevator?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Well, today or any other day, I'm just not sure of it, whether it was A or B that I took off.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, has your recollection always been the same about the situation, that is, today, and when you talked to the Secret Service man and when you talked to the FBI man?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes; I told him that I wasn't sure.

Mr. SPECTER. So, what you told the Secret Service man was just about the same thing as you have told me today?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. When I first started to ask you about this, Mr. Tomlinson, you initially identified stretcher A as the one which came off of the elevator car?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes; I think it's just like that.

Mr. SPECTER. And, then, when----

Mr. TOMLINSON (interrupting). Here's the deal--I rolled that thing off, we got a call, and went to second floor, picked the man up and brought him down. He went on over across, to clear out of the emergency area, but across from it, and picked up two pints of, I believe it was, blood. He told me to hold for him, he had to get right back to the operating room, so I held, and the minute he hit there, we took off for the second floor and I came back to the ground. Now, I don't know how many people went through that--I don't know how many people hit them--I don't know anything about what could have happened to them in between the time I was gone, and I made several trips before I discovered the bullet on the end of it there.

Mr. SPECTER. You think, then, that this could have been either, you took out of the elevator as you sit here at the moment, or you just can't be sure?

Mr. TOMLINSON. It could be, but I can't be positive or positively sure--I think it was A, but I'm not sure.

Mr. SPECTER. That you took off of the elevator?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, before I started to ask you questions under oath, which have been taken down here, I told you, did I not, that the Secret Service man wrote a report where he said that the bullet was found on the stretcher which you took off of the elevator--I called that to your attention, didn't I?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes; you told me that.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, after I tell you that, does that have any effect on refreshing your recollection of what you told the Secret Service man?

Mr. TOMLINSON. No; it really doesn't--it really doesn't.

Mr. SPECTER. So, would it be a fair summary to say that when I first started to talk to you about it, your first view was that the stretcher you took off of the elevator was stretcher A, and then I told you that the Secret Service man said it was--that you had said the stretcher you took off of the elevator was the one that you found the bullet off, and when we talked about the whole matter and talked over the entire situation, you really can't be completely sure about which stretcher you took off of the elevator, because you didn't push the stretcher that you took off of the elevator right against the wall at first?

Mr. TOMLINSON. That's right.

Mr. SPECTER. And, there was a lot of confusion that day, which is what you told me before?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Absolutely. And now, honestly, I don't remember telling him definitely--I know we talked about it, and I told him that it could have been. Now, he might have drawed his own conclusion on that.

Mr. SPECTER. You told the Secret Service agent that you didn't know where----

Mr. TOMLINSON (interrupting). He asked me if it could have been brought down from the second floor.

Mr. SPECTER. You got the stretcher from where the bullet came from, whether it was brought down from the second floor?

Mr. TOMLINSON. It could have been--I'm not sure whether it was A I took off.

Mr. SPECTER. But did you tell the Secret Service man which one you thought it was you took off of the elevator?

Mr. TOMLINSON. I'm not clear on that--whether I absolutely made a positive statement to that effect.

Mr. SPECTER. You told him that it could have been B you took off of the elevator?

Mr. TOMLINSON. That's right.

Mr. SPECTER. But, you don't remember whether you told him it was A you took off of the elevator?

Mr. TOMLINSON. I think it was A--I'm not really sure.

Mr. SPECTER. Which did you tell the Secret Service agent--that you thought it was A that you took off of the elevator?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Really, I couldn't be real truthful in saying I told him this or that.

Mr. SPECTER. You just don't remember for sure whether you told him you thought it was A or not?

Mr. TOMLINSON. No, sir; I really don't remember. I'm not accustomed to being questioned by the Secret Service and the FBI and by you and they are writing down everything, I mean.

Mr. SPECTER. That's all right. I understand exactly what you are saying and I appreciate it and I really just want to get your best recollection.

We understand it isn't easy to remember all that went on, on a day like November 22d, and that a man's recollection is not perfect like every other part of a man, but I want you to tell me just what you remember, and that's the best you can do today, and I appreciate that, and so does the President's Commission, and that's all we can ask a man.

Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes, I'm going to tell you all I can, and I'm not going to tell you something I can't lay down and sleep at night with either.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know where the stretcher came from that you found on the elevator?

Mr. TOMLINSON. No, sir; I do not. It could have come from two, it could have come from three, it could have come from some other place.

Mr. SPECTER. You didn't see anybody put it there?

Mr. TOMLINSON. No, sir--it was on the elevator when I got there. There wasn't anyone on the elevator at the time when I keyed it off.

Mr. SPECTER. And when you say "keyed it off," you mean?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Put it in manual operation.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Tomlinson, does it make any difference to you whether you sign this deposition at the end or not?

Mr. TOMLINSON. No.

Mr. SPECTER. We very much appreciate your coming, Mr. Tomlinson. Thank you very much. Those are all the questions I have.

Mr. TOMLINSON. All right. Thank you.

Mr. SPECTER. Off the record.

(Discussion between counsel and the witness Tomlinson regarding a proposed exhibit.)

Mr. SPECTER. On the record.

Now that the deposition of Mr. Tomlinson has been concluded, I am having the paper marked as Tomlinson Exhibit No. 2.

(Instrument marked by the reporter as Tomlinson Exhibit No. 2, for identification.)

Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that Mr. Tomlinson is present, and will you identify this paper marked Tomlinson Exhibit No. 2 as the one which contains the diagram of the emergency room and the letters A and B of the stretchers we have been discussing?

Mr. TOMLINSON. That's just the elevator lobby in emergency.

Mr. SPECTER. And this is the diagram which you drew for us?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. That's all, and thank you very much.

TESTIMONY OF DIANA HAMILTON BOWRON

The testimony of Diana Hamilton Bowron was taken at 2:05 p.m., on March 24, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that Diana Bowron is present following a verbal request that she appear here to have her deposition taken. During the course of deposition proceedings on March 20 and March 21, it came to my attention that Miss Bowron would have information of value to the Commission, and authorization was provided through the General Counsel, J. Lee Rankin, for her deposition to be taken.

Miss Bowron, the President's Commission is investigating the assassination of President Kennedy and is interested in certain facts relating to his treatment and presence at Parkland Memorial Hospital, and we have asked you to appear here to testify concerning your knowledge of his presence here.

Now, I have shown you, have I not, the Executive order appointing the Presidential Commission and the resolution authorizing the taking of testimony at depositions by Commission staff members, have I not?

Miss BOWRON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And are you willing to have your deposition taken today without 3 days' written notice, as we ordinarily provide?

Miss BOWRON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. So, are you willing to waive that technical requirement?

Miss BOWRON. Yes, I am.

Mr. SPECTER. All right. Will you stand up and raise your right hand?

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give before the President's Commission in these deposition proceedings will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Miss BOWRON. I do.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your permanent residence address, Miss Bowron?

Miss BOWRON. 1107 Brockbank, Dallas 29, Tex.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you spell that street name and speak up more loudly?

Miss BOWRON. B-r-o-c-k-b-a-n-k [spelling].

Mr. SPECTER. Thank you. Are you a native of Dallas, or of some other area?

Miss BOWRON. I am a native of England.

Mr. SPECTER. And how long have you been in Dallas?

Miss BOWRON. Since August 4, 1963.

Mr. SPECTER. And what are the circumstances surrounding your employment here at Parkland Memorial Hospital?

Miss BOWRON. I answered an advertisement in August and came over on a year's contract and to work in the emergency room.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you a registered nurse?

Miss BOWRON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is your educational background?

Miss BOWRON. I went to private boarding school and to secondary school, and then I went through nurses training for 3 years and 3 months in England. I finished in February of last year.

Mr. SPECTER. And how old are you at the present time?

Miss BOWRON. Twenty two.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to render assistance to President Kennedy back on November 22, 1963?

Miss BOWRON. I did; yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you relate briefly the circumstances surrounding your being called in to assist in that case?

Miss BOWRON. I was assigned to work in the minor medicine and surgery area, and I was passing through major surgery, and I heard over the intercom that they needed carts out at the emergency room entrance, so the orderly from the triage desk, which was passing through and he and I took one cart from major surgery and ran down the hall and by the cashier's desk there were some men I assume were Secret Service men.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you know at that time whom you were going to aid?

Miss BOWRON. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. You later assumed they were Secret Service men?

Miss BOWRON. Yes, sir, and they encouraged us to run down to the door.

Mr. SPECTER. And did you have a stretcher with you at that time?

Miss BOWRON. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And was one stretcher or more than one stretcher being brought forward at that time?

Miss BOWRON. There was another stretcher being brought forward from the OB--GYN section.

Mr. SPECTER. That's the obstetrics and gynecology section?

Miss BOWRON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And were you wheeling one stretcher by yourself or was some one helping?

Miss BOWRON. No, the orderly from the triage desk was helping us.

Mr. SPECTER. Was helping you?

Miss BOWRON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Who was that?

Miss BOWRON. Joe--I've forgotten what his last name is. I'm sorry. I know his first name is Joe and he's on duty today.

Mr. SPECTER. And who was bringing the other stretcher?

Miss BOWRON. I don't know, sir. I heard afterwards, that Dr. Midgett took one stretcher. I don't know who was assisting him.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is Dr. Midgett's first name?

Miss BOWRON. Bill.

Mr. SPECTER. And, where did you take your stretcher?

Miss BOWRON. To the left-hand side of the car as you are facing it, and we had to move Governor Connally out first because he was in the front. We couldn't get to the back seat. While all the Secret Service men were moving Governor Connally I went around to the other side of the car to try to help with the President and then we got him onto the second cart and then took him straight over to trauma room 1.

Mr. SPECTER. Trauma room No. 1?

Miss BOWRON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And describe in a general way Governor Connally's condition when you first saw him?

Miss BOWRON. He was very pale, he was leaning forward and onto Mrs. Connally but apparently--I didn't notice very much--I was more concerned with the person in the back of the car--the President.

Mr. SPECTER. And what, in a general way, did you observe with respect to President Kennedy's condition?

Miss BOWRON. He was moribund--he was lying across Mrs. Kennedy's knee and there seemed to be blood everywhere. When I went around to the other side of the car I saw the condition of his head.

Mr. SPECTER. You saw the condition of his what?

Miss BOWRON. The back of his head.

Mr. SPECTER. And what was that condition?

Miss BOWRON. Well, it was very bad--you know.

Mr. SPECTER. How many holes did you see?

Miss BOWRON. I just saw one large hole.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you see a small bullet hole beneath that one large hole?

Miss BOWRON. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you notice any other wound on the President's body?

Miss BOWRON. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And what action did you take at that time, if any?

Miss BOWRON. I helped to lift his head and Mrs. Kennedy pushed me away and lifted his head herself onto the cart and so I went around back to the cart and walked off with it. We ran on with it to the trauma room and she ran beside us.

Mr. SPECTER. And who was in the trauma room when you arrived there?

Miss BOWRON. Dr. Carrico.

Mr. SPECTER. Where did Dr. Carrico join you?

Miss BOWRON. At the--I couldn't really tell you exactly, but it was inside major surgery. Miss Henchliffe, the other nurse who is assigned to major surgery, was in the trauma room already setting the I.V.'s--the intravenous bottles up.

Mr. SPECTER. And were there any other nurses present at that time when the President arrived in the trauma area?

Miss BOWRON. I don't think so, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Were there any doctors present besides Dr. Carrico?

Miss BOWRON. I didn't notice anybody--there may have been.

Mr. SPECTER. What action did you observe Dr. Carrico take, if any?

Miss BOWRON. We tried to start an I.V. cutdown and I don't know whether it was his left or his right leg, and Miss Henchliffe and I cut off his clothing and then after that everybody just arrived at once and it was more or less everybody sort of helping everybody else. We opened the chest tube trays and the venesectron trays.

Mr. SPECTER. How long were you present in the emergency room No. 1?

Miss BOWRON. I was in there until they needed some blood, which was the second lot of blood. I went--ran out across to the blood bank and came back and went into the trauma room. By that time they had decided that he was dead, they said.

And then, we stayed in there with him and cleaned him up, removed all of his clothing and put them all together and Miss Henchliffe gave them to one of the Secret Service men, and we stayed with the body until the coffin came, and helped put him in there, and then we----

Mr. SPECTER. When you say "we", whom do you mean by "we"?

Miss BOWRON. Miss Henchliffe and myself.

Mr. SPECTER. Anybody besides the two of you?