Part 2

Dr. CARRICO. As I recall, it was white cotton or some fibrous support, with staves, bones and if I remember buckled in the front.

Mr. SPECTER. How wide was it?

Dr. CARRICO. How wide?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes, sir.

Dr. CARRICO. I don't know; I didn't examine below--you see--as I recall, it came about to his umbilicus--navel area.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there any Ace bandage applied to the President's hips that you observed?

Dr. CARRICO. No; I didn't remove his pants.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any opportunity to observe that area of his body when his pants were removed?

Dr. CARRICO. I had the opportunity, but I didn't look.

Mr. SPECTER. What doctors were involved in the treatment of President Kennedy?

Dr. CARRICO. Well, of course, Dr. Perry, Dr. Clark, Dr. Baxter, Dr. McClelland, Dr. Peters was in the room, Dr. Bashour, Dr. Ronald Jones, Dr. Curtis, I believe, Dr. White was there--initially, at least, I don't recall right offhand anyone else. There were other doctors in there, I just can't specifically remember--there were 10 or 15 people in the room before it was over.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have an opinion, Dr. Carrico, as to the cause of the punctate wound in the President's throat?

Dr. CARRICO. No; I really don't--just on the basis of what I know. We didn't make an attempt, as you know, to ascertain the track of the bullets.

Mr. SPECTER. I can't hear you.

Dr. CARRICO. As you know, we didn't try to ascertain the track of the bullets.

Mr. SPECTER. And why did you not make an effort to determine the track of the bullets?

Dr. CARRICO. Again, in trying to resuscitate the President, the time to do this was not available. The examination conducted was one to try to establish what life threatening situations were present and to correct these.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there any discussion among the doctors who attended President Kennedy as to the cause of the neck wound?

Dr. CARRICO. Yes; after that afternoon.

Mr. SPECTER. And what conversations were there?

Dr. CARRICO. As I recall, Dr. Perry and I talked and tried after--later in the afternoon to determine what exactly had happened, and we were not aware of the missile wound to the back, and postulated that this was either a tangential wound from a fragment, possibly another entrance wound. It could have been an exit wound, but we knew of no other entrance wound.

Mr. SPECTER. Was the wound in the neck consistent with being either an entry or exit wound, in your opinion?

Dr. CARRICO. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Or, did it look to be more one than the other?

Dr. CARRICO. No; it could have been either, depending on the size of the missile, the velocity of the missile, the tissues that it struck.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Carrico, assume these facts, if you will--first, that President Kennedy was struck by a 6.5-mm. missile which entered the upper-right posterior thorax, just above the scapula, being 14 cm. from the tip of the right acromion, a-c-r-o-m-i-o-n (spelling) process, and 14 cm. below the tip of the right mastoid process, and that the missile traveled between two strap muscles, proceeded through the fascia channel without violating the pleural cavity, striking the side of the trachea and exiting in the lower third of the anterior throat. Under the circumstances which I have just described to you, would the wound which you observed on the President's throat be consistent with the damage which a 6.5-mm. missile, traveling at the rate of approximately 2,000 feet per second, that being muzzle velocity, with the President being 160 to 250 feet away from the rifle, would that wound be consistent with that type of a weapon at that distance, with the missile taking the path I have just described to you?

Dr. CARRICO. I certainly think it could.

Mr. SPECTER. And what would your thinking be as to why it could produce that result?

Dr. CARRICO. I think a missile of this size, traveling in such a direction that it had very little deformity, struck nothing which would cause it to begin tumbling, and was slowed very little by passing through this relatively easy traversed planes, would not expend a great deal of energy on exit and would very likely not tumble, thus producing a small, round, even wound.

Mr. SPECTER. What has been your experience, if any, with gunshot wounds?

Dr. CARRICO. In working in the emergency room at Parkland, we have seen a fairly good number of gunshot wounds, and with .22 and .25 caliber weapons of somewhat, possibly somewhat lower velocity but at closer range, we have seen entrance and exit wounds of almost the same size, especially the same size, when passing through superficial structures.

Mr. SPECTER. And what superficial structures did those missiles pass through to which you have just referred?

Dr. CARRICO. The ones I was referring to in particular were through the muscles of the leg superficially.

Mr. SPECTER. Approximately how many missile wounds, bullet wounds, have you had an opportunity to observe in your practice, Doctor?

Dr. CARRICO. I would guess 150 or 200.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you describe as precisely for me as possible the nature of the head wound which you observed on the President?

Dr. CARRICO. The wound that I saw was a large gaping wound, located in the right occipitoparietal area. I would estimate to be about 5 to 7 cm. in size, more or less circular, with avulsions of the calvarium and scalp tissue. As I stated before, I believe there was shredded macerated cerebral and cerebellar tissues both in the wounds and on the fragments of the skull attached to the dura.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you notice any other opening in the head besides the one you have just described?

Dr. CARRICO. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. SPECTER. Specifically, did you notice a bullet wound below the large gaping hole which you described?

Dr. CARRICO. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your opinion, Doctor, if you have one, as to how many bullets were involved in the injuries inflicted on the President?

Dr. CARRICO. As far as I could tell, I would guess that there were two.

Mr. SPECTER. Prior to today, have you ever been interviewed by any representative of the Federal Government?

Dr. CARRICO. Yes, sir; the Secret Service talked to us shortly after the President's death.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall who talked to you on that occasion?

Dr. CARRICO. No; I don't recall his name.

Mr. SPECTER. What was the content of that interview?

Dr. CARRICO. We spoke to him in Dr. Shires' office in the medical school concerning the President's death, mostly my part was just a statement that the written statement that I had submitted was true.

Mr. SPECTER. I now call your attention, Doctor, to a document heretofore identified as Commission Exhibit No. 392, to a 2-page summary which purports to bear your signature, and dated November 22, 1963, 1626 hours, and ask you first of all if that is a photostatic copy of a report which you submitted?

Dr. CARRICO. Yes; it is.

Mr. SPECTER. And, is that your signature at the end?

Dr. CARRICO. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And are the facts set forth in there true and correct?

Dr. CARRICO. They are.

Mr. SPECTER. With respect to this notation of a ragged wound of the trachea, which is contained in your report, could you describe that in more specific detail?

Dr. CARRICO. In inserting the endotracheal tube, a larynzo scope was inserted and it was noted that there was some discoloration at the lateral edge of the larynx and there appeared to be some swelling and hematoma and in looking through the chords which were partially open, a ragged tissue and some blood was seen within the trachea itself. This was the extent of what I saw.

Mr. SPECTER. Would that specific portion of the wound give any indication as to direction of the bullet?

Dr. CARRICO. No; it wouldn't.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there any characteristic within the neck area to give any indication of the direction of the bullet?

Dr. CARRICO. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Did the Secret Service man whom you just described ask you any questions beyond whether the contents of your report were true?

Dr. CARRICO. I can't recall any specific questions. He did ask some others and they did concern the wounds, and what we felt the wounds were from, the direction, and so forth.

Mr. SPECTER. And what response did you make to those inquiries?

Dr. CARRICO. Essentially the same as I have here. I said I don't remember specifically.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you talked to any other representative of the Federal Government prior to today?

Dr. CARRICO. Not in connection with this.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, have you talked to someone in connection with something else?

Dr. CARRICO. Just some Government employment--Civil Service.

Mr. SPECTER. But the only time you talked to anyone about your treatment of President Kennedy and your observations relating to that treatment was on this one occasion with the Secret service?

Dr. CARRICO. Yes; except I just recalled since that time, another Secret Service Agent--I did speak to him briefly. He asked me if I had any other information and I said "no".

Mr. SPECTER. Is that the total contents of that conversation?

Dr. CARRICO. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Prior to the time we went on the record here before you were sworn in, did you and I have a brief conversation about the purpose of this disposition, and the general nature of the questions which I would ask you?

Dr. CARRICO. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And was the information which you gave me at that time the same as that to which you have testified here on the record?

Dr. CARRICO. Yes; it was.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you ever changed any of your opinions regarding your treatment and observations of President Kennedy?

Dr. CARRICO. Not as I recall.

Mr. SPECTER. By the way, Dr. Carrico, how old are you at the present time?

Dr. CARRICO. Twenty-eight.

Mr. SPECTER. Was any bullet found in the President's body.

Dr. CARRICO. Not by us.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have any other notes or written record of any sort concerning your treatment of President Kennedy?

Dr. CARRICO. Not concerning the treatment. I have a note I wrote to my children for them to read some day, but it doesn't concern the treatment.

Mr. SPECTER. What does that concern?

Dr. CARRICO. It just concerns the day and how I felt about it and why it happened--maybe.

Mr. SPECTER. Personal observations on your part?

Dr. CARRICO. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you participate in any of the press conferences?

Dr. CARRICO. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add which you think might be of assistance in any way to the President's Commission?

Dr. CARRICO. No, sir; I don't believe I do.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Carrico, have I made available to you a letter requesting your appearance on Monday, March 30, before the Commission, and do you acknowledge receipt of that?

Dr. CARRICO. I do.

Mr. SPECTER. And would it be possible for you to attend and testify at that time?

Dr. CARRICO. I certainly can.

Mr. SPECTER. Washington, D.C.

Dr. CARRICO. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Thank you very much, Dr. Carrico.

Dr. CARRICO. Yes, sir.

TESTIMONY OF DR. MALCOLM OLIVER PERRY

The testimony of Dr. Malcolm Oliver Perry was taken at 3:25 p.m., on March 25, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that Dr. Malcolm O. Perry is present in response to a letter request that he appear here to have his deposition taken in connection with the proceedings of the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy, which is now inquiring into all facets of the shooting, including the medical attention received by President Kennedy at Parkland Hospital, in which Dr. Perry participated.

With that preliminary statement of purpose, would you please stand up, Dr. Perry, and raise your right hand?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give before the President's Commission in these deposition proceedings will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Dr. PERRY. I do.

Mr. SPECTER. All right. Would you state your full name for the record, please?

Dr. PERRY. Malcolm Oliver Perry.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your profession, sir?

Dr. PERRY. Physician and surgeon.

Mr. SPECTER. And how old are you?

Dr. PERRY. Thirty-four.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you duly licensed to practice medicine in the State of Texas?

Dr. PERRY. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you outline briefly your educational background, please?

Dr. PERRY. Starting with high school?

Mr. SPECTER. That will be fine.

Dr. PERRY. I attended high school at Allen High School and at Plano High School, graduating from the latter in 1947. I entered the University of Texas from whence I duly graduated with a degree of Bachelor of Arts in 1951. I went to Southwestern Medical School of the University of Texas for the subsequent 4 years, graduating in 1955 with a degree of Doctor of Medicine. I interned at Letterman's Army Hospital in San Francisco, and returned to a residency in surgery at Parkland Hospital in July 1958. I finished that residency in June 1962, and then returned to San Francisco and spent 1 year as additional specialization in vascular surgery. I then returned in September 1963, to Southwestern Medical School of the University of Texas as an assistant professor of surgery.

Mr. SPECTER. What were your duties on November 22, 1963?

Dr. PERRY. Well, as is accustomed, I was at that time on two services, both a general surgery service and a vascular surgery service as a consultant and attending surgeon.

Mr. SPECTER. And, what were you doing specifically shortly after noontime on November 22?

Dr. PERRY. Well, at the time of the incident in question, I was having lunch in the main dining room with the chief resident, Dr. Ronald Jones, in preparation for the usual Friday rounds at 1 o'clock with the residents.

Mr. SPECTER. And what occurred during the course of that luncheon?

Dr. PERRY. Dr. Jones, as I say, and I were having lunch when an emergency call came over the speaker system for Dr. Tom Shires, who is the chief of surgery. I knew that Dr. Shires was in Galveston giving a paper and was not in the hospital, so Dr. Jones picked up the page to see if he or I could be of assistance. We were informed by the hospital operator that Mr. Kennedy had been shot and was being brought to Parkland Hospital for care.

Mr. SPECTER. And what action did you take as a result of learning those factors?

Dr. PERRY. The dining room was located one floor up from the emergency room, so Dr. Jones and I went immediately to the emergency room to render what assistance we could.

At the time of our arrival in the emergency room, the President was already there, and as I entered trauma room No. 1, Dr. James Carrico, the surgical resident on duty, had just placed an endotracheal tube to assist respiration.

Mr. SPECTER. Who was present in addition to Dr. Carrico, if you recall, at that time?

Dr. PERRY. I cannot with accuracy relate all the people that were there--Dr. Carrico, I saw and spoke to briefly. There were several other people in the room. There were several nurses there--I don't know at this time who they were. Mrs. Kennedy was in the room and there was a gentleman with her and there were several other gentlemen both in the door and right outside the door to the room. Some of them, I assume, part of the legal force.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any other doctors in the room at that time?

Dr. PERRY. No, sir; I did not. There was somebody else in the room, but I don't know who it was. I remember only Dr. Carrico--I had the impression that one of the interns was in the room, but this may be an impression gathered after the fact.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe as to the President's condition at the time you first saw him?

Dr. PERRY. He was lying supine on the emergency cart directly in the center of the room under the overhead lamp. His shirt had, been removed, and intravenous infusion was being begun in the right leg, I believe. Dr. Carrico was at the head of the table attaching the oxygen apparatus to assist in respiration.

I noted there was a large wound of the right posterior parietal area in the head exposing lacerated brain. There was blood and brain tissue on the cart. The President's eyes were deviated and dilated and he was unresponsive. There was a small wound in the lower anterior third in the midline of the neck, from which blood was exuding very slowly.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe that wound as precisely as you can, please?

Dr. PERRY. The wound was roughly spherical to oval in shape, not a punched-out wound, actually, nor was it particularly ragged. It was rather clean cut, but the blood obscured any detail about the edges of the wound exactly.

Mr. SPECTER. What was the condition of the edges of the wound, if you can recollect?

Dr. PERRY. I couldn't state with certainty, due to the fact that they were covered by blood and I did not make a minute examination. I determined only the fact that there was a wound there, roughly 5 mm. in size or so.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you now described it as precisely as you can; that wound?

Dr. PERRY. I think so.

Mr. SPECTER. What else, if anything, did you observe as to the condition of the President?

Dr. PERRY. Spasmodic respiratory efforts were obvious, but I did not detect a pulse nor a heart beat on a very rapid examination. It was apparent that respirations were ineffective, even with the use of the endotracheal tube and oxygen. At that point I asked Dr. Carrico if this was a wound in his neck or had he begun the tracheotomy, and he said it was a wound and I, at that point, asked someone to get me a tracheotomy tray, and put on some gloves and initiated the procedure.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, have you described everything that you can recollect about your observations of the President before you started to work on him?

Dr. PERRY. There was no evidence to that cursory examination of any other wound. I did not move the President. I did not turn him over.

Mr. SPECTER. Why did you not turn him over?

Dr. PERRY. At that point it was necessary to attend to the emergent procedure and a satisfactory effective airway is uppermost in such a condition. If you are unable to obtain an effective airway, then the other procedures are to be of no avail.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, on the subject of turning him over, did you ever turn him over?

Dr. PERRY. I did not.

Mr. SPECTER. Why didn't you turn him over after you had taken the initial action on him?

Dr. PERRY. After the tracheotomy tube was in place and we were breathing for him, Dr. Clark and I had begun external cardiac massage, since we had been unable to detect a heart beat, blood pressure, or pulse. I continued with the cardiac massage while Dr. Clark examined the head wound, and he and Dr. Jenkins conferred in regard to the electrocardiogram. It was determined that none of the resuscitative measures were effective and the procedures were then abandoned.

I had no further business in the room at that point, and I left the room momentarily. I returned within a minute or so, because I had left my coat where I dropped it and asked one of the nurses to hand me my coat, and I left the room and went to the operating suite from there.

Mr. SPECTER. And did that conclude your participation in the treatment of President Kennedy?

Dr. PERRY. It did.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate as to the time you arrived in the Emergency Room?

Dr. PERRY. I really don't know the time. It was about 12:30 or so when I was eating and the call must have come thereabouts, and I didn't look at my watch at that time, nor did I have an opportunity to look at it again until after I had left the room.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate as to the time which elapsed from the point that you knew it was 12:30, until the time you arrived at the emergency room?

Dr. PERRY. It must have been within the next few minutes. I really don't know. As I say, we were sitting there eating and I had no occasion to look at my watch again. At that time I was much too busy to consult it further.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate as to the time you left the emergency room after finishing your treatment and work on the President?

Dr. PERRY. After I left trauma room No. 1, I went outside and washed my hands and then I retrieved my coat and I sat down for a few minutes in a chair there in the emergency room for probably 10 or 15 minutes, I suppose, and then I went from there to the operating suite to assist in the care of the Governor, so I must have left the emergency room probably somewhere around 1:15 or 1:20, I would gather.

Mr. SPECTER. At approximately what time was the President pronounced to be dead?

Dr. PERRY. I don't know this for a fact, other than what was related to me by Dr. Clark, and he tells me that this was at 1 o'clock. Once again, I did not verify the time.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you described all of the efforts which were made to revive the President?

Dr. PERRY. There were other procedures done that I did not do during this period. I did not describe in detail the performance of the tracheotomy. It seems that that is really not necessary at this time, unless you want it.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe it in detail, the procedures which were followed in the efforts to save the President's life?

Dr. PERRY. All right. Well, to regress, then, at the time I began the tracheotomy, I made an incision right through the wound which was present in the neck in order to gain complete control of any injury in the underlying trachea.

I made a transverse incision right through this wound and carried it down to the superficial fascia, to expose the strap muscles overlying the thyroid and the trachea. There was an injury to the right lateral aspect of the trachea at the level of the external wound. The trachea was deviated slightly to the left and it was necessary to divide the strap muscles on the left side in order to gain access to the trachea. At this point, I recall, Dr. Jones right on my left was placing a catheter into a vein in the left arm because he handed me a necessary instrument which I needed in the performance of the procedure.

The wound in the trachea was then enlarged to admit a cuffed tracheotomy tube to support respiration. I noted that there was free air and blood in the superior right mediastinum.

Although I saw no injury to the lung or to the pleural space, the presence of this free blood and air in this area could be indicative of a wound of the right hemithorax, and I asked that someone put a right chest tube in for seal drainage. At the time I did not know who did this, but I have been informed that Dr. Baxter and Dr. Paul Peters inserted the chest tube and connected it to underwater drainage.

Blood transfusions and fluid transfusions were being given at this time, and through the previous venesections that had been done by Dr. Jones and Dr. Carrico.

Also, the President had received 300 mg. of Solucortef in order to support his adrenal glands, since it was common medical knowledge that he suffered from adrenal insufficiency.

Of course, oxygen and pressure breathing were being effected under the guidance of Dr. Jenkins and Dr. Giesecke, who were handling the anesthesia machine at the head of the table.

Dr. Bashour and Dr. Seldin, in addition to Dr. Clark, had arrived and also assisted in monitoring cardiac actions, as indicated by the oscilloscope and the cardiotachioscope.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you now described all of the operative procedures performed on the President?

Dr. PERRY. Yes, all that I am familiar with.

Mr. SPECTER. Are there any doctors who participated other than those whom you have already identified in the course of your description?