Part 18

Mr. SPECTER. Or, would that affect only his memory while he was suffering from lack of oxygen?

Dr. SHIRES. Probably just while he was suffering from lack of oxygen. He didn't have that much hypoxia. Hypoxia or anoxia or lack of oxygen could affect his memory. Had this been severe, this could have affected his memory for preceding events, but his hypoxia fortunately did not last that long, and he never showed real evidence of brain damage from the anoxia, so that I think his memory for events up until the time he recalls falling over in the car is probably accurate.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you relate just as exactly as you can for us what he said to you, and the nature of the conversation, with your replies, and how it went as closely as you can recount it now?

Dr. SHIRES. He recounted, and as I remember this particular occasion, Mrs. Connally was in the room too, and reconstructing events, she related the story of her last conversation with the President, relating to him, that the reception had been warm and that she was glad he couldn't say that people of Texas and in Dallas didn't like him and admire him, and she was very pleased with the way things had gone the whole visit. Then, the next event that occurred was that she remembers hearing a shot, he remembered hearing a shot--he remembers turning to the right, he remembered being struck by a bullet, and his next thought as he fell over toward his wife was "They're going to kill all of us," and that's the last really clear memory that he expressed to me until he remembers vaguely being in the emergency room, but very little of that, and then he remembers waking up in the recovery room several hours later.

Mr. SPECTER. Did he say anything to you about who he meant by "they"?

Dr. SHIRES. He didn't say--he didn't comment on it at all.

Mr. SPECTER. Did he describe the nature of the sound which he heard?

Dr. SHIRES. I don't believe he did--no.

Mr. SPECTER. Did anybody describe the nature of the sound?

Dr. SHIRES. I think Mrs. Connally did. I think she thought it was, if I'm not wrong, she thought it was a loud retort, either a gun or a firecracker. I think she thought it was a bullet and I think he did too--thought it was a gun--I believe he did too.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, did Governor Connally say anything about hearing President Kennedy say anything?

Dr. SHIRES. No--no, he didn't.

Mr. SPECTER. Did Mrs. Connally say anything about whether President Kennedy said anything?

Dr. SHIRES. No, she didn't. She remembered Mrs. Kennedy saying some things, but she didn't remember anything about the President having uttered a word.

Mr. SPECTER. What did Mrs. Kennedy say, according to Mrs. Connally?

Dr. SHIRES. Oh, it's vague, even in my memory, but things to the effect that her husband had been shot and--well, that was really the essence of it. It wasn't phrased that way.

Mr. SPECTER. Focusing on the time sequence--what did Governor Connally say as to the timing, number one, the time he was hit, and number two, the time he had heard a sound, and number three, the time he turned--those three factors? In what sequence did he relate them?

Dr. SHIRES. As he recalled it, he heard a shot, he turned to the right and felt himself receiving a shot--in that order--in a matter of a few seconds.

Mr. SPECTER. Where did he feel himself receive a shot?

Dr. SHIRES. In the right chest.

Mr. SPECTER. Did he make any comment about feeling anything in his wrist?

Dr. SHIRES. No; I don't believe he did.

Mr. SPECTER. How about feeling anything in his thigh?

Dr. SHIRES. I don't believe he ever commented on that to me.

Mr. SPECTER. Did he say anything else to you at that time about his recollections on the day of the assassination?

Dr. SHIRES. No; other than this striking feeling he had after he was hit, that someone was trying to kill all of them--apparently he remembers that quite clearly, right after he was hit, but that's all.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you discuss his recollection of the events of the assassination day with Governor Connally on any other occasion?

Dr. SHIRES. Oh, yes; sporadically, during his convalescence.

Mr. SPECTER. What else did he say to you at any other time?

Dr. SHIRES. He was just simply asking questions about things that happened to him in the Emergency Room, in the Operating Room, and he was a little surprised that he didn't recall them better, but this was after he was wounded in here, but that was really the main thing--he was surprised that he didn't remember some of the things--like the cutdowns for blood and that sort of thing that were done to him, and, of course, this is obviously because he was so anoxic at the time.

Mr. SPECTER. Did he ever describe anything in more detail in his recollection of the things on the day of the assassination?

Dr. SHIRES. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, going back to the first conversation you had with Mrs. Connally on November 22d, did she say anything more to you other than that which you have already testified about?

Dr. SHIRES. No--those were mainly the remarks that she made. I don't remember any others, except--well, no--most of the others were--we were discussing the Governor's condition and outlook and chances for recovery and that sort of thing.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, looking again at Diagram No. 5, what is your professional opinion, if you have one, as to whether Governor Connally's chest injury, wrist injury, and thigh injury were caused by the same bullet?

Dr. SHIRES. Well we all thought, me included, that this was probably one missile, one bullet.

Mr. SPECTER. When you say "we all thought," whom do you mean by that?

Dr. SHIRES. Dr. Shaw, Dr. Gregory--as we were reconstructing the events in the operating room in an attempt to plot out trajectory as best we could, this appeared to be our opinion.

Mr. SPECTER. Did any of your assistants consult with you in those calculations?

Dr. SHIRES. I guess nearly all of them we have listed.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. McClelland, Dr. Baxter and Dr. Patman?

Dr. SHIRES. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. How about Dr. Osborne and Dr. Parker?

Dr. SHIRES. They were working with Dr. Gregory. If they discussed it, I'm sure they did--it was before I got there.

Mr. SPECTER. How about Dr. Boland and Dr. Duke who worked with Dr. Shaw?

Dr. SHIRES. Now, again, I talked to them and they were discussing it as they did the chest procedure, and again thought the same thing. Everyone was under the impression this was one missile--through and through the chest, through and through the arm and the thigh.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there any one of the doctors on either of these three teams who had a different point of view?

Dr. SHIRES. Not that I remember.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you think it is possible that Governor Connally could have been struck by two bullets, one entering his back and emerging from his chest and the second going into his wrist?

Dr. SHIRES. I'm sure it is possible, because missile sites are so variable, depending upon the size of the bullet, the speed at which it travels, whether it was tumbling or not. We have seen all kinds of combinations of entrance and exit wounds and it's just impossible to state with any certainty, looking at a given wound, what the nature of the missile was, so I am sure it is possible.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you think it is possible that, assuming a missile being a bullet 6.5 mm. with a velocity of over 2,000 feet per second, and the distance between the weapon and the victim being approximately 160 to 250 feet, that the same bullet might have passed through President Kennedy, entering his back near the midline and emerging from his neck, and then entering Governor Connally in the back and emerging from his chest, into his wrist, through his wrist and into the thigh?

Dr. SHIRES. I assume that it would be possible. The main thing that would make me think that this was not the case in that he remembers so distinctly hearing a shot and having turned prior to the time he was hit, and in the position he must have been, particularly here in Figure 5, I think it's obvious that he did turn rather sharply to the right and this would make me think that it was a second shot, but this is purely conjecture, of course.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, is there anything, aside from what he told you, that is, anything in the characteristics of the wounds on President Kennedy and the wounds on Governor Connally which would lead you to conclude that it was not the same bullet?

Dr. SHIRES. No--there is nothing. It could have been--purely from the standpoint of the wounds, it is possible.

Mr. SPECTER. You referred just a minute ago to his turning position?

Dr. SHIRES. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Is the postulation of a turning by Governor Connally necessary to explain the point of entry in the back, exit in the chest, entry in the wrist, and exit in the wrist, and entry into the thigh, in order to have that line--to state it differently, is it necessary to postulate turning by the Governor?

Dr. SHIRES. Depending upon the angle of the trajectory--I suppose not. I don't know what the angle of the trajectory was from where the bullet was fired.

Mr. SPECTER. Assuming an angle of declination of approximately 45 degrees?

Dr. SHIRES. This, I don't know without drawing it out, but as long as his right arm is drawn in front of him next to the exit wound on the chest, he is in a sitting position, if the angle of declination was right, then I think he could have received this facing straight forward.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, on the wrist, would that be palm of the wrist, back of the wrist, or how?

Dr. SHIRES. I don't understand.

Mr. SPECTER. In what position would the wrist have had to be in, in order to have the same bullet make all three wounds?

Dr. SHIRES. The main point was that his arm be up here. In other words, in some fashion, however his hand happened to be turned, but he had to have his right arm raised up, next to his chest.

Mr. SPECTER. His wrist would have to be up with the palm down, would it not?

Dr. SHIRES. As depicted here.

Mr. SPECTER. In order for the point of entry to be on the dorsal side?

Dr. SHIRES. That's right, again, which makes it a little more likely he was turning, since ordinarily you pronate your wrist as you turn, whereas, this would have been a little strange for him to have been sitting like this, but again, depending on what he had in his hand. It's just a question of which side is up.

Mr. SPECTER. But it would be more natural, you say, for the palm to be down in the turning, which was as contrasted with a relaxed sitting position where it would be more likely his palm would be facing in towards his chest area?

Dr. SHIRES. Right.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have any knowledge as to the damage which was done to the rib?

Dr. SHIRES. Only from hearsay from Dr. Shaw, that's all.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have any knowledge as to what fragments there were in the chest, bullet fragments, if any?

Dr. SHIRES. No, again except from postoperative X-rays, there is a small fragment remaining, but the initial fragments I think Dr. Shaw saw before I arrived.

Mr. SPECTER. How about the fragments in the wrist, do you have any knowledge of that?

Dr. SHIRES. Again, there were small fragments which I saw during the procedure on the wrist, but I was not directly involved in that procedure.

Mr. SPECTER. What opinion do you have, if any, Dr. Shires, as to whether the wound in the thigh might have been inflicted from a missile that did not pass through any other part of the Governor's body, assuming that it was a 6.5-mm. bullet with a muzzle velocity of 2,000 feet per second, traveling approximately 160 to 250 feet between the end of the weapon and the point of impact on the thigh?

Dr. SHIRES. Well, again, in that wound--it was strange in that the hole in the skin was too large for the amount of damage inflicted on the underlying tissues, so that had this been the case, this would have had to have been a tangential wound. Had it been a tangential wound, then it's possible that small fragments could have gone into bone as it did and that the damage to the soft tissues was done only by that small fragment, so that the major portion of the bullet simply hit the skin in a tangent and went on in its course elsewhere.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, is it possible that the bullet could have hit Governor Connally with the thigh being the initial point of impact and do the damage which was done there with the high velocity missile that I have just described for you?

Dr. SHIRES. Is it possible to get a wound like that?

Dr. SPECTER. Yes, sir.

Dr. SHIRES. Yes; as long as it's on a tangent.

Mr. SPECTER. Is it likely to receive a wound like that from a high velocity weapon of 2,000 feet per second and at about 160 to 250 feet?

Dr. SHIRES. If it's a tangential wound, tangential wounds can be very strange. A large bullet can cause a small hole if its on a tangent or a small bullet can rip out a fairly large hole on a tangent. It just depends on the time of contact and the angle of contact with the skin. That's why it's awfully hard to predict.

Mr. SPECTER. So that wound could have either been the first striking of the Governor from the bullet, or it could have been from a missile whose velocity was spent after going through President Kennedy and through the Governor's body and wrist and then caused that wound in the thigh?

Dr. SHIRES. That's right, if it was a tangential bullet.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shires, have you ever been contacted by any representative of the Federal Government prior to today?

Dr. SHIRES. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And who was it who contacted you?

Dr. SHIRES. I don't recall the name--it was two individuals from the Secret Service. They presented their credentials at the time to the administration and then subsequently to me and they were given copies of our operative reports, statements made by people concerned with the President and Governor at the time, and then subsequently one of those same two men from Secret Service returned and charted the entrance and exit wounds which you have described previously, or we have looked at previously in these five diagrams.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you ever been interviewed by any other representative of the Federal Government before today?

Dr. SHIRES. No; not in person. I discussed over the phone with the FBI--well, that was with regard to Oswald. I discussed over the phone what happened to the bullet that was taken from Oswald, but not with regard to the President or the Governor--no.

Mr. SPECTER. On your prior interviews by the Secret Service, sir, did they cover the same subjects which you and I have gone over today, or were other subjects covered?

Dr. SHIRES. No; essentially the same subjects.

Mr. SPECTER. And was any different information given to you by the Secret Service at that time of either of those two occasions?

Dr. SHIRES. No; the same as we have discussed here.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, prior to the time when you were sworn in and the court reporter started to take the deposition in shorthand form, did you and I have a brief discussion about the purpose of the deposition and the subject matters of interest to the Commission?

Dr. SHIRES. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And was the same information given by you to me during the course of that informal discussion as you have testified to on the record here this afternoon?

Dr. SHIRES. Yes; in less detail.

Mr. SPECTER. And do you have anything which you would care to add which you think might be helpful to the Commission in its work?

Dr. SHIRES. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, fine, that concludes the deposition, thank you very much, Dr. Shires.

Dr. SHIRES. Are you interested in Oswald--that's my only other question?

Mr. SPECTER. Well, let's talk about it a little off the record.

(Discussion between Counsel Specter and witness Dr. Shires off the record at this point.)

Mr. SPECTER. Let's go back on the record. Dr. Shires, before concluding the deposition, permit me to ask you just a few additional questions about care for Lee Harvey Oswald.

First of all, I again show you Commission exhibit No. 392, the last two pages which purport to be an operative record of Parkland Memorial Hospital on November 24, 1963, concerning treatment of Mr. Oswald, with you listed as the surgeon, and I'll ask you to take a look at these two sheets and tell us whether or not that is a report which you prepared on treatment of Mr. Oswald?

Dr. SHIRES. Yes, it is.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you outline in a very general way what his condition was when you first saw him?

Dr. SHIRES. When he was first seen in the emergency room, he was unconscious, without blood pressure or pulse, but with an audible heart beat, and attempts, feeble though they were, attempts in respiration. There was an entrance wound over the left lower chest and the bullet could be felt subcutaneously over the lower chest lateral projecting this trajectory through the body and looking at his general condition, it was fairly obvious that the bullet had transgressed virtually every major organ and vessel in the abdominal cavity, which later proved to be the case.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you do for him?

Dr. SHIRES. He was given resuscitation, including an endotracheal tube, intravenous fluids, blood, moved to the operating room, prepared, draped, an abdominal incision, laparotomy made, just as is described in the record. The injuries were in fact mortal and involved both major vessels in the abdomen, the aorta, the inferior vena cava, and there had been massive exanguinating hemorrhage into the abdomen--in and around the abdomen.

After securing control of all the many, many bleeding points and the bleeding organs, he never had regained consciousness. Approximately 15, 16--whatever it is, approximately, pints of blood had been given, and he had suffered irreparable anoxia from the initial massive blood loss incident to the gunshot wound. When his heart did stop, even though we felt this was a terminal cessation of heartbeat, efforts were made at resuscitation by open heart massage and all that went with it, but never once was an effective heartbeat obtained, so that our initial impression was that it was correct in that this was simply cardiac death and not cardiac arrest.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you come close to saving him, in the vernacular--in lay terms?

Dr. SHIRES. There has never been recorded in medical literature recovery from a wound like this. There was too much blood lost too fast. Had the injury occurred right outside the operating room, it might have been possible to reduce the period of anoxia that comes from overwhelming blood loss like this, sufficiently to have corrected it. We did control all the bleeding points with a lot of difficulty, finally all bleeding points were controlled and this was a mortal wound--there was no question about that.

Mr. SPECTER. Are the details of your observations, examination, and treatment of Mr. Oswald set forth in the two pages of this report which I have just shown you in Commission No. 392?

Dr. SHIRES. Yes, the operative reports that are contained there.

Mr. SPECTER. Thank you very much, Dr. Shires.

Dr. SHIRES. Thank you.

TESTIMONY OF DR. RICHARD BROOKS DULANY

The testimony of Dr. Richard Brooks Dulany was taken at 6:20 p.m., on March 25, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that Dr. Richard Dulany is present in response to the request that he appear to have his deposition taken and he has been requested to appear here because he has been identified in prior depositions as perhaps being one of the first doctors to see President Kennedy.

Dr. Dulany, have you had an opportunity to examine the Executive Order creating the President's Commission?

Dr. DULANY. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And the rules and regulations relating to the taking of testimony?

Dr. DULANY. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you willing to have your deposition taken here today, even though you haven't had the 3 days' notice which you have a right to, if you want it?

Dr. DULANY. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. You are willing to waive that requirement?

Dr. DULANY. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you stand up now and raise your right hand?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give before the President's Commission in this deposition proceeding will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Dr. DULANY. I do.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you state your full name for the record?

Dr. DULANY. Richard Brooks Dulany.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your profession?

Dr. DULANY. M.D.--Medical Doctor.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you licensed to practice medicine in the State of Texas?

Dr. DULANY. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And would you outline your educational background, please, starting with college--graduation from college?

Dr. DULANY. From college I went to the University Medical School of Oklahoma and then took my internship here at Parkland Hospital and was in the service for 2 years in the Navy, and I just got back from the service in November, and started a residency here in surgery.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to participate in the care of President Kennedy on November 22, 1963?

Dr. DULANY. Is this all recorded now?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes.

Dr. DULANY. Well, as I stated, I principally cared for the Governor and then after his emergency treatment had been cared for, I went into the room where President Kennedy was being cared for.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you present from the start of the Governor's treatment?

Dr. DULANY. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And about what time did you go into the room where the President was being treated?

Dr. DULANY. Well, I believe the Governor was supposed to have been in the surgery suite upstairs within 12 minutes after he came in, and so I'm sure I must have been in the room where the President was, about 7 minutes or so afterwards.

Mr. SPECTER. What time was that, about, as best you can place it?

Dr. DULANY. I don't really recollect the specific times.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe as to the condition of the President when you entered?

Dr. DULANY. Well, at this time his pupils were fixed and dilated and he had a large head wound--that was the first thing I noticed.

There was already a tracheotomy tube in the neck wound or what was later described as a wound, and had a cutdown running and several other doctors were putting chest tubes in.

Mr. SPECTER. What doctors were present at that time?

Dr. DULANY. I really can't be accurate on that. I remember Dr. Clark and Dr. Jenkins and Dr. Giesecke, Dr. Carrico, Dr. Martin White, and of course, the doctor that was probably down first of the staff members, Dr. Malcolm Perry, and I remember Dr. McClelland, and Dr. Peters were in there.

Mr. SPECTER. Are those all the doctors you remember as being down there?

Dr. DULANY. I believe those are all.

Mr. SPECTER. Can you identify any of the nurses who were there?

Dr. DULANY. No, I don't believe so. I can't remember them.

Mr. SPECTER. Is there anything that you think that you know would be helpful to the President's Commission in its inquiry into this matter?

Dr. DULANY. I don't believe I could add anything any more than you probably already know.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any neck wound on the President?

Dr. DULANY. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. SPECTER. The tracheotomy had already been performed?

Dr. DULANY. It had been placed in.

Mr. SPECTER. Had the incision already been made when you first saw the President's neck?

Dr. DULANY. I really didn't examine it close enough to make any statement along that line.

Mr. SPECTER. Then, did you observe any wound in the President's neck at all?

Dr. DULANY. No, I just know that the tracheotomy was in and later I was told that this was a wound when it was first seen--you know, that's the best I can tell you.

Mr. SPECTER. That's fine, Dr. Dulany, thank you very much for appearing here today.

Dr. DULANY. Yes; thank you.