Part 17

Mr. SPECTER. And what conclusion, if any, did you draw as to the velocity of the missile, as to the time it struck each of those bony portions?

Dr. GREGORY. I think that the missile was continually losing velocity with each set of tissues which it encountered and transected, and the amount of damage done is progressively less from first entrance in the thorax to the last entrance in the thigh.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you think it possible that Governor Connally was shot by two bullets, with one hitting in the posterior part of his body and the second one striking the back side of his wrist?

Dr. GREGORY. The possibility exists, but I would discount it for these reasons--ordinarily, a missile in flight--I'll qualify that--a high velocity missile in flight does not tend to carry organic material into the wound which it creates.

I believe if you will inspect the record which was prepared by Dr. Shaw, there is no indication that any clothing or other organic material was found in the chest wound.

An irregular missile can carry debris into a wound and such debris was carried into the wound of the wrist.

I would have expected that an undistorted high velocity missile striking the wrist would not have carried material into it.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there any other characteristic which led and leads you to conclude that the wrist was not the initial point of impact of a single high velocity bullet?

Dr. GREGORY. Yes. Based on our experience with high velocity missile wounds of the forearm produced by rifles of the deer hunting calibre, there is tremendous soft tissue destruction as well as bone fragmentation which not infrequently culminates in amputation of the part.

I do not believe that the missile wound in Governor Connally's right forearm was produced by a missile of such magnitude at the time it struck him. It either had to be one of lower initial energy or a missile which had been partially expended elsewhere before it struck his wrist.

Mr. SPECTER. Would that opinion apply if you assumed that the missile had initial velocity when leaving the muzzle of the weapon of 200 feet per second?

Dr. GREGORY. That's not a very high velocity missile.

Mr. SPECTER. Pardon me--2,000 feet per second.

Dr. GREGORY. I should say that a missile at 2,000 feet per second that strikes the forearm is likely to blow it very nearly off, if it is a missile of any mass as well.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, assume that you have a muzzle velocity of 2,000 feet per second and assume the mass is 6.5 mm., and assume further that the distance between the muzzle and the wrist is approximately 160 to 250 feet away, what would you expect, based on your experience, that the consequences would be on that wrist?

Dr. GREGORY. I will have to say that most of the high velocity rifle wounds that I have seen of the forearm have, in fact, been at a closer range than that which you have stipulated, but I doubt that a range of 155 or 200 feet would seriously reduce the energy, and I would expect a similar wound, under the circumstances which you have described.

Mr. SPECTER. Let me add another possibility in this sequence, Dr. Gregory, and ask you your opinion with respect to an additional intervening victim in the path of the same bullet to this effect--assume that President Kennedy was riding in an open automobile directly behind Governor Connally, and that at a distance of approximately 175 feet President Kennedy was struck by a bullet from a weapon with a muzzle velocity of 2,000 feet per second, carrying a 6.5 mm. missile and that the missile entered in the upper right of the President's back very near the neckline and passed through his body, striking no bony material, and emerged from the throat of the President. Is it possible that missile could have then entered the back of the Governor and inflicted the chest wound which you have described?

Dr. GREGORY. I would have to concede that that would be possible--yes.

Mr. SPECTER. What would your professional opinion be, if you can formulate one, as to whether or not that actually did happen in this situation?

Dr. GREGORY. I really couldn't formulate an objective opinion about it. Only, for this reason, that it would then become a question simply of trajectories, and lining the two bodies up in such a way that this sequence of events could have occurred. I would hazard one guess, that is, that had the missile that struck Governor Connally passed through President Kennedy first, that though the missile would not have been distorted necessarily, it would very probably have begun to tumble. Now, if you like, I will define that for you.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you please?

Dr. GREGORY. A tumbling is a second--it actually is a third component of motion that a missile may go through in its trajectory. First, there is a linear motion from muzzle to target on point of impact. In order to keep a missile on its path, there is imparted to it a rotary motion so that it is spinning. Now, both of these are commensurate with the constant trajectory. A third component, which is tumbling, and is literally the end over end motion, which may be imparted to a missile should it strike something in flight that deflects but does not stop it--in this circumstance the wound of entry created by such a missile usually is quite large and the destruction it creates is increased, as a matter of fact, by such tumbling, and I would have therefore expected to see perhaps some organic material carried into a large wound of entry in Governor Connally's back.

These are only theoretical observations, but these are some of the reasons why I would believe that the missile in the Governor behaved as though it had never struck anything except him.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe the nature of the wound in the Governor's back?

Dr. GREGORY. Only so far as I saw it as Dr. Shaw was preparing to operate on it, but I was unable to see the nature of the wound as he carried out his operation. I did, however, specifically question him about this matter of containing foreign material, clothing, etc.

Mr. SPECTER. What did he say about that?

Dr. GREGORY. Well, as I recall it, he said none was found, and I would not have expected any to be found as I explained to you, if this was the initial impact of that missile.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, wouldn't you think it possible, bearing in mind that my last question only went as to whether the same bullet could have gone through President Kennedy and inflicted the wound on Governor Connolly's chest, would you think it possible that the same missile could have gone through President Kennedy in the way I described and have inflicted all three of the wounds, that is, the entry and exit on the chest, the entry and exit on the wrist, and the entry into the thigh which you described.

Dr. GREGORY. I suspect it's possible, but I would say it would have to be a remarkably powerful missile to have done so.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Gregory, have you been interviewed about this matter prior to today by any representative of the Federal Government?

Dr. GREGORY. Yes; on two or three occasions I have talked to a properly identified member of the Secret Service, Mr. Warren, I believe it was.

Mr. SPECTER. And what was the nature of the information which you gave to Mr. Warren on those occasions?

Dr. GREGORY. Essentially the same thing as I have told you here, but in much less detail.

Mr. SPECTER. And have you ever talked to anyone besides Mr. Warren and me about these matters, from the Federal Government?

Dr. GREGORY. No; not that I know of. I was on a day or so after the assassination spoken to in these offices by a member of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, but it was a very brief interview.

Mr. SPECTER. What was that about?

Dr. GREGORY. And I think it was the question of whether or not I had been able to recover any metal from Governor Connally which they might use for ballistic analysis.

I regret to say I don't know the gentleman's name, but he too was properly identified.

Mr. SPECTER. And prior to the time when the Court Reporter started to transcribe the deposition which you have been kind enough to provide us with, had you and I been talking about the same subjects which you have answered questions on all during the course of this deposition?

Dr. GREGORY. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And during the time that you first were interviewed by the Secret Service down through the present moment, have you had the same general opinion concerning the matters which you have testified about here today?

Dr. GREGORY. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add which you think would be helpful in any way to the work of the Commission?

Dr. GREGORY. No; not really. This is the only articulation I have had with this whole episode concerning Governor Connally's wound and his subsequent recovery and none other.

Mr. SPECTER. Thank you very much, Dr. Gregory, for coming.

Dr. GREGORY. Very well.

TESTIMONY OF DR. GEORGE T. SHIRES

The testimony of Dr. George T. Shires was taken at 4:35 p.m., on March 23, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. SPECTER. Let the record show that as we are reconvening this session and about to commence the deposition of Dr. George T. Shires, that the preliminary statement is being made that this is pursuant to the investigation being conducted by the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy to determine all the facts relating to the shooting, including the treatment rendered to Governor Connally as well as President Kennedy, and that Dr. Shires has appeared here today in response to a letter of request from the President's Commission to testify concerning his knowledge of the treatment which he and other medical personnel at Parkland Hospital performed on Governor Connally.

Will you rise, please, Dr. Shires and raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you will give before the President's Commission in this deposition proceeding will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Dr. SHIRES. I do.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you state your full name, please, for the record?

Dr. SHIRES. George Thomas Shires.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is your profession, sir?

Dr. SHIRES. Professor of Surgery and Chairman of the Department of Surgery, University of Texas, Southwestern Medical School.

Mr. SPECTER. And you are a medical doctor by profession, I assume?

Dr. SHIRES. Yes; M.D.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you outline briefly your educational background?

Dr. SHIRES. Undergraduate education at the University of Texas in Austin, Tex.; graduate medical education at the University of Texas, Southwestern Medical School in Dallas; internship, Massachusetts Memorial Hospital in Boston, Mass.; surgical residency--Parkland Memorial Hospital in Dallas, Tex.; two tours of active duty in the United States Navy, first as research investigator at the Naval Medical Research Institute, National Naval Medical Center, Bethesda, Md.; second as Associate Surgeon, United States Naval Hospital Ship _Haven_--do you want staff positions?

Mr. SPECTER. Please, give me those, as well.

Dr. SHIRES. Subsequently, Clinical Instructor in Surgery, University of Texas, Southwestern Medical School, progressing through Assistant Professor of Surgery, Associate Professor of Surgery, Professor of Surgery, and Chairman of the Department of Surgery.

Mr. SPECTER. What was your year of graduation from college, Dr. Shires?

Dr. SHIRES. This was premedical, and at that time the war was on, so it was a premedical 3 years--it was 1944.

Mr. SPECTER. And what year did you receive your medical degree?

Dr. SHIRES. 1948.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you Board certified at the present time?

Dr. SHIRES. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And, in what year were you so certified?

Dr. SHIRES. I was certified by the American Board of Surgery in 1956.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to render any medical treatment for President Kennedy back on November 22, 1963?

Dr. SHIRES. No; I was not in town at the time the shooting occurred. I was in Galveston, Tex., at the meeting of the Western Surgical Association.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to render medical attention and services to Governor Connally, Dr. Shires?

Dr. SHIRES. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you state briefly the circumstances under which you were called into this case?

Dr. SHIRES. After the President and the Governor were brought to Parkland Hospital, it was determined--well--all aid was given to the President that was available, and it was determined that Governor Connally's injuries were multiple, the primary injury to Governor Connally was to the chest.

Dr. Shaw, who is the professor of surgery--I don't need to tell their titles--you will have all that?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes--correct.

Dr. SHIRES. Dr. Shaw ascertained the condition of Governor Connally, instituted therapy, and had the hospital notify me in Galveston of the status of the President and also the Governor.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you able to return then to Dallas in time to assist in the operative procedures on Governor Connally?

Dr. SHIRES. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And at approximately what time did you return to Dallas?

Dr. SHIRES. Approximately 3 p.m.

Mr. SPECTER. And what participation did you have in the operative procedures on Governor Connally?

Dr. SHIRES. At the time I returned, the chest procedure was in progress. The orthopedic procedure on the arm and the leg debridement were ready to be started. I scrubbed and performed the leg procedure.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe, if anything, as to the condition of Governor Connally's chest wound?

Dr. SHIRES. At the time I arrived, the chest wound had been debrided and was being closed. His general condition at that point was very good. He was receiving blood and the arm and leg wounds were being prepared for surgery.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any opportunity to observe the wound on his back?

Dr. SHIRES. Not at that time.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any opportunity to observe a wound on his chest?

Dr. SHIRES. Once again, not at that time--later, but not at that time.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, what did you observe at a later time concerning the wound on his back and on his chest?

Dr. SHIRES. Well, in part of his postoperative care, which was a large part of the treatment, we were concerned, of course, with all the wounds, and he had several chest wounds. These, at the time I saw them, had been debrided and were the site of draining, so that their initial appearance was completely altered by having had surgical debridement, so they were clean postsurgical wounds with drainage, at the time I first saw them.

Mr. SPECTER. Would their alteration and condition preclude you from giving an opinion as to whether they were points of entry or points of exit?

Dr. SHIRES. They would--really.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe at the time you arrived at the hospital as to the condition of his wrist, if anything?

Dr. SHIRES. At that point his wrist was being prepared for surgery, and although I did not examine this in detail, since I was concerned with the thigh wound, there appeared to be a through and through wound of the wrist which looked like a missile wound.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you able to formulate any opinion as to the point of entry or the point of exit?

Dr. SHIRES. No; since I didn't examine it in detail; no, not really.

Mr. SPECTER. And what did you observe as to the wound on the thigh?

Dr. SHIRES. The wound on the thigh was a peculiar one. There was a 1 cm. puncate missile wound over the junction of the middle and lower third of the leg and the medial aspect of the thigh. The peculiarity came in that the X-rays of the left leg showed only a very small 1 mm. bullet fragment imbedded in the femur of the left leg. Upon exploration of this wound, the other peculiarity was that there was very little soft tissue damage, less than one would expect from an entrance wound of a centimeter in diameter, which was seen on the skin. So, it appeared, therefore, that the skin wound was either a tangential wound or that a larger fragment had penetrated or stopped in the skin and had subsequently fallen out of the entrance wound.

Mr. SPECTER. What size fragment was there in the Governor's leg at that time?

Dr. SHIRES. We recovered none. The small one that was seen was on X-ray and it was still in the femur and being that small, with no tissue damage after the debridement, it was thought inadvisable to remove this small fragment.

Mr. SPECTER. Is that fragment in the bone itself at the present time?

Dr. SHIRES. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. What would your best estimate be as to the size of that fragment?

Dr. SHIRES. One millimeter in diameter--one to two.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you have any estimate as to how much that might weigh in grains?

Dr. SHIRES. In grains--a fraction of a grain, maybe, a tenth of a grain--very small.

Mr. SPECTER. A tenth of one grain?

Dr. SHIRES. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. What size bullet would it take to create the punctate hole which you described in the thigh?

Dr. SHIRES. This would depend entirely on the angle and the speed and weight of the bullet. For example, a small missile on a tangent may create a surprisingly large defect. A large bullet with fast or a relatively slow velocity will create the same defect.

Mr. SPECTER. What operative procedures did you employ?

Dr. SHIRES. Progressive debridement from skin, fat, fascia, muscle, irrigation, and through and through enclosure with stainless steel alloy wire and removable sutures.

Mr. SPECTER. Does that complete a general description of what you did to Governor Connally?

Dr. SHIRES. In the operating room, yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Approximately what time did that operation start?

Dr. SHIRES. Approximately 1 o'clock.

Mr. SPECTER. The operation that you were concerned with?

Dr. SHIRES. Oh, the operation that I was concerned with must have started at 3:30 or 4 o'clock, I guess it was.

Mr. SPECTER. And about what time did it end?

Dr. SHIRES. My portion of it--about 20 minutes later.

Mr. SPECTER. And who, if anyone, assisted you in that portion of the operation?

Dr. SHIRES. Doctors Robert McClelland, Charles Baxter, and Ralph Don Patman.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shires, I am showing you a document identified heretofore as Commission Exhibit No. 392, which is the report of Parkland Hospital on the treatment of President Kennedy and Governor Connally, and I show you a Parkland Memorial Hospital operative record, dated November 22, 1963, which lists you as the surgeon, and ask you whether or not this represents the report made by you on the operative procedures on Governor Connally?

Dr. SHIRES. Yes; it does.

Mr. SPECTER. And, are those the same as the matters which you have heretofore described during the course of this deposition as to what you did?

Dr. SHIRES. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, what treatment, if any, have you performed on Governor Connally subsequent to November 22?

Dr. SHIRES. A tremendous amount--postoperative care was of the essence here in that he had multiple injuries, massive blood and fluid replacement, so that to describe the care is really a detail of postoperative--I don't know how much of this you want--in other words, he had clotting defects--I don't know whether you want to take this down--I just want to ask you how much detail you would like?

Mr. SPECTER. Start off with a general description--perhaps, I will direct your attention to some specific areas to abbreviate it.

First of all, how frequently did you see him after November 22, 1963?

Dr. SHIRES. For the first several days I saw him approximately every 2 to 4 hours for an hour or so each visit, and many times for 6 and 8 hours at a stretch.

Mr. SPECTER. And after that time how frequently did you see him?

Dr. SHIRES. Decreasing frequency over the next 3 weeks--never less than three or four times a day, even after he was convalescing.

Mr. SPECTER. How long was he in the hospital?

Dr. SHIRES. I don't really know the number of days he was in the hospital.

Mr. SPECTER. After he left the hospital, have you seen him?

Dr. SHIRES. Yes; I saw him again approximately 2 weeks, I guess it was, after he left the hospital, in Austin. He developed a superficial saphenous thrombophlebitis in the right leg, not the one that the injury occurred in. This was undoubtedly incident to a catheter cutdown having been placed in this leg for administration of blood and fluids while he was in the hospital. He unequivocably had a clot in the saphenous vein and at this time was placed on bed rest, antibiotics, anticoagulants and responded very satisfactorily.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you anticipate seeing him in the future?

Dr. SHIRES. Do I?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes.

Dr. SHIRES. Not for his wounds. No--the only followup care that he really requires at the moment is the bone--the orthopedic followup, which incidentally is also completely healed.

Mr. SPECTER. Doctor, look, if you will, at a document which we have marked Dr. Gregory X-1, used in the course of the deposition of Dr. Gregory, which immediately preceded yours and directing your attention first to Diagram Number 1, would the entry and exit holes on Governor Connally's back and chest, being entry and exit, respectively, and the exit and entry on the wrist with the entry being on the back side of the wrist and the exit on the front side of the wrist, correspond with your observations of Governor Connally?

Dr. SHIRES. Yes; they would.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, going to Diagram 2, which depicts a man standing, would that correspond to the angle of the entry and exit wounds?

Dr. SHIRES. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, going to Diagram No. 3, would that diagram correspond with the wounds on Governor Connally as you recollect them to be?

Dr. SHIRES. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Going now to Diagram 4, would that again correspond with the wounds on Governor Connally?

Dr. SHIRES. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And as to Diagram No. 5, what does that represent?

Dr. SHIRES. This, at the time of the discussion of Governor Connally's injuries with his wife, before he really regained consciousness from surgery, was the apparent position that he was in in the car, which would explain one missile producing all three wounds.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have a discussion with Mrs. Connally?

Dr. SHIRES. Yes; with Mrs. Connally.

Mr. SPECTER. And when was that discussion?

Dr. SHIRES. Right after the surgery--this was the 22d, late in the afternoon.

Mr. SPECTER. And what, if anything, did she tell you as to the Governor's position?

Dr. SHIRES. She had thought, and I think correctly so, that he had turned to his right after he heard the first shot, apparently, to see what had happened to the President, and he then later confirmed this, that he heard the first shot, turned to his right, and then was hit.

I forgot about that a moment ago, incidentally. He definitely remembers turning after hearing the first shot, before he was struck with a bullet. I forgot about that.

Mr. SPECTER. When did Governor Connally tell you that?

Dr. SHIRES. Oh, several days later.

Mr. SPECTER. While he was in the hospital?

Dr. SHIRES. Oh, yes--4 or 5 days later and we were constructing the events.

Mr. SPECTER. What was the occasion for your conversation with him?

Dr. SHIRES. In part of his routine care one morning, as he was reconstructing his memory of events, because his memory was quite hazy, since he had a sucking wound of the chest and came in here relatively in anoxia, he had some cyanosis, as you know.

Mr. SPECTER. What is cyanosis?

Dr. SHIRES. Not enough oxygen of the tissues and this means they turn blue.

Mr. SPECTER. Would that affect his memory?

Dr. SHIRES. Yes; sure would and did, and he remembers very little after he fell over in the car--he is very hazy, until, oh, probably the second day post-operatively.

Mr. SPECTER. Would that affect his memory as to what happened before the wound?

Dr. SHIRES. No.