Part 15

Now, you have described a larger wound on the volar or palm side of the wrist than was present on the dorsal or back side of the wrist, and you have expressed the opinion that it was the point of entry on the volar side of the wrist as opposed to a point of exit on the back side of the wrist, even though as you earlier said, ordinarily the point of entry is smaller and the point of exit is larger.

Now, will you repeat for the record, Dr. Shaw, the thinking--your thinking which might explain a larger point of entry and a smaller point of exit on the wrist.

Dr. SHAW. Yes. As a matter of fact, when I first examined Governor Connally's wrist, I did not notice the small wound on the dorsum of the wrist and only saw the much larger wound on the radial side of the volar surface of the wrist. I didn't know about the second small wound until I came in when Dr. Gregory was concluding his operation on the wrist. He informed me that there was another small wound through the skin through which a missile had obviously passed.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, which wound was that, Dr. Shaw?

Dr. SHAW. This was the wound on the dorsum or the dorsal surface of the wrist.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you then observe that wound?

Dr. SHAW. Yes; I saw this wound.

Mr. SPECTER. And where was that wound located to the best of your recollection?

Dr. SHAW. This wound was slightly more distal on the arm than the larger wound and located almost in the midportion of the dorsum of the wrist.

Mr. SPECTER. Would that correspond with this location which I read from Dr. Gregory's report on the dorsal aspect of the right wrist over the junction of the distal fourth of the radius and shaft approximately 2 cm. in length.

Dr. SHAW. The wound was approximately 2 cm. in length?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes; would that correspond with the wound which you observed?

Dr. SHAW. Yes; I saw it at the time that he was closing it and that would correspond with the wound I observed.

Mr. SPECTER. He has described that as what he concluded to be the wound of entry on the dorsal aspect of the right wrist, but your thought was that perhaps that was the wound of exit?

Dr. SHAW. Yes; in trying to reconstruct the position of Governor Connally's body, sitting in the jump seat of the limousine, and the attitude that he would assume in turning to the right--this motion would naturally bring the volar surface of the right wrist in contact with the anterior portion of the right chest.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, is your principal reason for thinking that the wound on the dorsal aspect is a wound of exit rather than a wound of entry because of what you consider to be the awkward position in having the dorsal aspect of the wrist either pointing upward or toward the chest?

Dr. SHAW. Yes, I think I am influenced a great deal by the fact that in trying to assume this position, I can't comfortably turn my arm into a position that would explain the wound of the dorsal surface of the wrist as a wound of entrance, knowing where the missile came out of the chest and assuming that one missile caused both the chest wound and the arm wound.

Mr. SPECTER. Might not then that conclusion be affected if you discard the assumption that one missile caused all the wounds?

Dr. SHAW. Yes, if two missiles struck the Governor, then it would not be necessary to assume that the larger wound is the wound of entrance.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, would not another explanation for the presence of a wound on the dorsal aspect of the wrist be if the Governor were sitting in an upright position on the jump seat with his arm resting either on an arm rest inside the car or on a window of the car with the elbow protruding outward, and as he turned around, turning in a rotary motion, his wrist somewhat toward his body so that it was present in an angle of approximately 45 degrees to his body, being slightly moving toward his body.

Dr. SHAW. Well, I myself, am not able to get my arm into that position. If the wound, as I assume to be in the midportion of the forearm here and the wound of exit would be here (illustrating) I can't get my arm into that position as to correspond to what we know about the trajectory of the bullet into the chest.

Mr. SPECTER. Assuming that the bullet through the chest then also went through the wrist?

Dr. SHAW. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, aside from the trajectory and the explanation of one bullet causing all the damage and focusing just on the nature of the wound on the wrist, what conclusion would you reach as to which was the point of entrance and which was the point of exit?

Dr. SHAW. I would feel that the wound on the volar surface of the wrist was the wound of entrance and that perhaps the bullet being partially spent by its passage through the chest wall, struck the radius, fragmenting it, but didn't pass through the wrist, and perhaps tumbled out into the clothing of Governor Connally with only a small fragment of this bullet passing on through the wrist to go out into the left thigh.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, would that be consistent with a fragment passing through the wrist which was so small that virtually the entire missile, or 158 grains of it, would remain in the central missile?

Dr. SHAW. Yes. The wound on the volar surface, I'm sorry, on the dorsum of the wrist and the wound in the thigh which was obviously a wound of entrance, since the fragment is still within the thigh, were not too dissimilar in size.

Mr. SPECTER. Was the wound in the thigh itself, that is, aside from the size of the fragment which remains in the leg, as small as the hole on the dorsal aspect of the wrist?

Dr. SHAW. My memory is that the wound in the thigh through the skin was about the same as the mound on the skin of the dorsum of the wrist, but I didn't make an accurate observation at the time.

Mr. SPECTER. Would your thinking on that be affected any if I informed you that Dr. Shires was of the view and had the recollection that the wound on the thigh was much larger than a hole accounted for by the size of fragments which remained in the femur.

Dr. SHAW. Of course, Dr. Shires actually treated and closed this wound, but since this wound was made through the skin in a tangential manner----

Mr. SPECTER. Now, you are referring to the wound of the thigh?

Dr. SHAW. I am referring to the wound of the thigh--was made in a tangential manner, it did not go in at a direct right angle, the slit in the skin in the thigh could be considerably longer than the actual size of the missile itself, because this is a sharp fragment that would make a cutting--it would cause a laceration rather than a puncture wound.

Mr. SPECTER. So, the hole in the thigh would be consistent with a very small fragment in the femur?

Dr. SHAW. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, a moment ago I asked you what would be your opinion as to the point of entry and the point of exit based solely on the appearances of the holes on the dorsal and volar aspects of the wrist, and you responded that you still thought, or that you did think that the volar aspect was the point of entry with the additional thought that the missile might not have gone through the wrist, but only a fraction having gone through the wrist--now, my question is in giving that answer, did you consider at that time the hypothesis that the wound on the wrist was caused by the same missile which went through the Governor's chest, or was that answer solely in response to the characteristics of the wound on the wrist alone?

Dr. SHAW. I have always felt that the wounds of Governor Connally could be explained by the passage of one missile through his chest, striking his wrist and a fragment of it going on into his left thigh. I had never entertained the idea that he had been struck by a second missile.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, focusing for just a minute on the limited question of the physical characteristics of the wounds on the wrist, if you had that and nothing more in this case to go on, what would your opinion be as to which point was entry and which point was exit?

Dr. SHAW. Ordinarily, we usually find the wound of entrance is smaller than the wound of exit. In the Governor's wound on the wrist, however, if the wound on the dorsum of the wrist is the wound of entrance, and this large missile passed directly through his radius, I'm not clear as to why there was not a larger wound of exit than there was.

Mr. SPECTER. You mean on the volar aspect?

Dr. SHAW. Yes; if a whole bullet hit here----

Mr. SPECTER. Indicating the dorsal aspect?

Dr. SHAW. Yes; and came out through here, why it didn't carry more bone out through the wrist than it did, and the bone was left in the wrist--the bone did not come out. In other words, when it struck the fifth rib it made a hole this big around (indicating) in the chest in carrying bone fragments out through the chest wall.

Mr. SPECTER. Wouldn't that same question arise if it went through the volar aspect and exited through the dorsal aspect?

Dr. SHAW. It wouldn't if you postulated that the bullet did not pass through the wrist, but struck the wrist.

Mr. SPECTER. That would be present in either event, though, if you postulated if the bullet struck the dorsal aspect of the wrist, and did not pass through, but only a missile passed through the volar aspect.

Dr. SHAW. Yes; in that case, however, considering the wound of exit from the chest, and if that same bullet went on through the wrist, I would still expect a pretty good wound of entrance.

Mr. SPECTER. You see, I am trying now, Dr. Shaw, to disassociate the thought that this is the same missile, so that I'm trying to look at it just from the physical characteristics of the appearance of the wounds on the two sides of the wrist.

Dr. SHAW. May we go off the record just a minute?

Mr. SPECTER. Sure--off the record.

(Discussion between Counsel Specter and the witness, Dr. Shaw, off the record.)

Mr. SPECTER. Let us go back on the record and let the record reflect that we have been discussing another aspect concerning Dr. Shaw's thought that if the main missile had gone through the entire radius, that there would have been more damage, presumably, to the arteries and tendons on the underside of the wrist, and I then called Dr. Shaw's attention to one additional factor in Dr. Gregory's testimony which is reflected in his report that "on the radial side of the arm, small fine bits of cloth consistent with fine bits of mohair were found," which was one of the reasons for Dr. Gregory's thinking that the path was from the dorsal aspect to the volar aspect.

Dr. SHAW. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And Dr. Shaw's reply, if this is correct, Doctor, that you would know of no readily available explanation for that factor in the situation?

Dr. SHAW. Except that it might have been carried by the small fragment which obviously passed through the wrist and attached to that.

Mr. SPECTER. But could the fragment have carried it from the radial side on it if it had been traveling from the volar side to the radial side?

Dr. SHAW. Yes; it could have carried it through and deposited it on the way through.

Mr. SPECTER. I see, so it might have started on the volar aspect and could have gone on through.

Dr. SHAW. You know, if we could get that suit of his, it would help a lot.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, we are going to examine clothing if at all possible.

Dr. SHAW. Because, I think it would have been almost impossible--I think if you examine the clothing and if you had a hole here in his coat and no hole on this side----

Mr. SPECTER. Indicating a hole on the femur side----

Dr. SHAW. That would almost clear that thing up.

Mr. SPECTER. Yes; it would be very informational in our analysis of the situation.

Dr. SHAW. I doubt if there is a hole in both sides of the sleeve--the sleeve wouldn't be quite that long, I don't think.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shaw, my next question involves whether you have ever had a conversation with Governor Connally about the sequence of events of the day he was shot?

Dr. SHAW. Yes, we have talked on more than one occasion about this. The Governor admits that certain aspects of the whole incident are a bit hazy. He remembers hearing a shot. He recognized it as a rifle shot and turned to the right to see whether President Kennedy had been injured. He recognized that the President had been injured, but almost immediately, he stated, that he felt a severe shock to his right chest. He immediately experienced some difficulty in breathing, and as he stated to me, he thought that he had received a mortal wound.

Mr. SPECTER. Did he tell you why he thought the wound was mortal?

Dr. SHAW. He just knew that he was badly hit, as he expressed it.

Mr. SPECTER. Did he comment on whether or not he heard a second shot before he felt this wound in his chest?

Dr. SHAW. He says that he did not hear a second shot, but did hear--no, wait a minute, I shouldn't say that. He heard only two shots so that he doesn't know which shot other than the first one he did not hear. He only remembers hearing two shots, his wife says distinctly she heard three.

Mr. SPECTER. Mrs. Connally said she heard three?

Dr. SHAW. Mrs. Connally distinctly remembered three shots.

Mr. SPECTER. And, Governor Connally said he heard two shots?

Dr. SHAW. Two shots.

Mr. SPECTER. Would that not be consistent with a situation where he was hit by the second shot and lost consciousness?

Dr. SHAW. Yes; the shock of the wounding might have prevented him from hearing the rifle report.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you have expected him to hear a third shot after he was wounded by a second shot?

Dr. SHAW. He didn't lose consciousness at that time, although he said he did lose consciousness during a part of the trip from the point of wounding to the hospital.

Mr. SPECTER. Did Governor Connally tell you whether or not he heard President Kennedy say anything?

Dr. SHAW. He said that all he heard was the President say, "Oh," that's the only thing he told me.

Mr. SPECTER. Did Mrs. Connally state whether or not she heard the President say anything?

Dr. SHAW. My memory isn't good for that. I don't remember what Mrs. Connally told me on that.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you continuing to treat Governor Connally at the present time?

Dr. SHAW. Yes, although the treatment of the chest is practically at an end, because the chest has reached a satisfactory state of healing.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you continue to treat the Governor all during his stay at Parkland Hospital?

Dr. SHAW. Yes, I attended him several times daily.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shaw, would you think it consistent with the facts that you know as to Governor Connally's wounds that he could have been struck by the same bullet which passed through President Kennedy, assuming that a missile with the muzzle velocity of 2,000 feet per second, a 6.5-millimeter bullet, passed through President Kennedy at a distance of 160 to 250 feet from the rifle, passing through President Kennedy's body, entering on his back and striking only soft tissue and exiting on his neck; could that missile have also gone through Governor Connally's chest in your opinion?

Dr. SHAW. Yes, taking your description of the first wound sustained by the President, which I, myself, did not observe, and considering the position of the two men in the limousine, I think it would be perfectly possible for the first bullet to have passed through the soft tissues of the neck of President Kennedy and produced the wounds that we found on Governor Connally.

Mr. SPECTER. Could that bullet then have produced all the wounds that you found on Governor Connally?

Dr. SHAW. Yes, I would still be postulating that Governor Connally was struck by one missile.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, as you sit here at the moment on your postulation that Governor Connally was struck by one missile, is that in a way which is depicted by diagram No. 5 on the exhibit heretofore marked as "Dr. Gregory's Exhibit No. 1?"

Dr. SHAW. Yes; I feel that the line of trajectory as marked on this diagram is accurate as it could be placed from my memory of this wound.

Mr. SPECTER. And, on that trajectory, how do you postulate the bullet then passed through the wrist from dorsal to volar or from volar to dorsal?

Dr. SHAW. My postulation would be from volar to dorsal.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, then, going back to diagram No. 1, Dr. Shaw, there is one factor that we did not call your attention to or have you testify about, and that is--the marking that the exit is on the volar side and the entry is on the dorsal side as it was remarked by Dr. Gregory, that would then be inconsistent of your view of the situation, would it not?

Dr. SHAW. Yes, it would be.

Mr. SPECTER. And similarly on diagram No. 3, where the exit is marked on the volar, and the entry is marked on the dorsal, that would also be inconsistent with your view of the situation?

Dr. SHAW. Yes--he has the wound on the back being quite a bit larger than the wound on the front here, doesn't he?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes, the wound as it appears here on the diagram is larger.

Dr. SHAW. That wasn't my memory.

Mr. SPECTER. But I don't think that that is necessarily as to scale in this situation. Would it be possible from your knowledge of the facts here, Dr. Shaw, that President Kennedy might have been struck by the bullet passing through him, hitting nothing but soft tissues, and that bullet could have passed through Governor Connally's chest and a second bullet might have struck Governor Connally's wrist?

Dr. SHAW. Yes; this is a perfectly tenable theory.

Mr. SPECTER. And, then, the damage to Governor Connally's thigh might have come from either of the bullets which passed through the chest or a second bullet which struck the wrist?

Dr. SHAW. That is true--as far as the wounds are concerned, this theory, I feel, is tenable. It doesn't conform to the description of the sequence of the events as described by Mrs. Connally.

Mr. SPECTER. In what respect Dr. Shaw?

Dr. SHAW. Well she feels that the Governor was only struck by one bullet.

Mr. SPECTER. Why does she feel that way; do you know, sir?

Dr. SHAW. As soon as he was struck she pushed him to the bottom of the car and got on top of him and it would mean that there would be a period of--well if there were 5-1/2 seconds between the three shots, there would be a couple seconds there that would have given her time to get him down into the car, and as she describes the sequence, it is hard to see how he could have been struck by a second bullet.

Mr. SPECTER. If she pushed him down immediately after he was shot on the first occasion?

Dr. SHAW. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. But if her reaction was not that fast so that he was struck twice, of course then there would be a different situation, depending entirely on how fast she reacted.

Dr. SHAW. I think if he had been struck first in the wrist and not struck in the chest, he would have known that. He only remembers the hard blow to the back of his chest and doesn't remember being struck in the wrist at all.

Mr. SPECTER. Might he not have been struck in the chest first and struck by a subsequent shot in the wrist?

Dr. SHAW. Yes; but that's hard to postulate if he was down in the bottom of the car.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shaw, have you been interviewed by any representatives of the Federal Government prior to today?

Dr. SHAW. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And who talked to you about this case?

Dr. SHAW. I don't have his name. I perhaps could find it. It was a member of the Secret Service.

Mr. SPECTER. On how many occasions were you talked to by a Secret Service man?

Dr. SHAW. Once.

Mr. SPECTER. And what did you tell him?

Dr. SHAW. I told him approximately the same that has been told in this transcript.

Mr. SPECTER. And prior to the time we started to go on the record with the court reporter taking this down verbatim, did you and I have a discussion about the purpose of the deposition and the questions that I would ask you?

Dr. SHAW. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And were the answers which you provided me at that time the same as those which you have testified to on the record here this afternoon?

Dr. SHAW. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have any other written record of the operation on Governor Connally other than that which has been identified here in Commission Exhibit No. 392?

Dr. SHAW. No; this is a copy of the operative record that went on to the chart of Governor Connally which is in the possession of the record room of Parkland Hospital.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything else which you could tell us which you think might be helpful to the Commission in any way, Dr. Shaw?

Dr. SHAW. No; I believe that we have covered all of the points that are germane to this incident. Anything else that I would have would actually be hearsay.

Mr. SPECTER. Thank you very much, sir, for appearing.

Dr. SHAW. All right, you are welcome.

Mr. SPECTER. Off the record.

(Discussion between Counsel Specter and the witness, Dr. Shaw, off the record.)

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shaw, permit me to ask you one or two more questions. Did you find any bullets in Governor Connally's body?

Dr. SHAW. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you find any fragments of bullets in his chest?

Dr. SHAW. No; only fragments of shattered rib.

Mr. SPECTER. And did you find, or do you know whether any fragment was found in his wrist or the quantity of fragments in his wrist?

Dr. SHAW. It is my understanding that only foreign material from the suit of Governor Connally was found in the wrist, although in the X-ray of the wrist there appeared to be some minute metallic fragments in the wrist.

Mr. SPECTER. As to the wound on the back of Governor Connally, was there any indication that the bullet was tumbling prior to the time it struck him?

Dr. SHAW. I would only have to say that I'm not a ballistics expert, but the wound on his chest was not a single puncture wound, it was long enough so that there might have been some tumbling.

Mr. SPECTER. You mean the wound on his back?

Dr. SHAW. The wound on his back--yes, it was long enough so that there might have been some tumbling. In other words, it was not a spherical puncture wound.

Mr. SPECTER. So it might have had some tumbling involved, or it might not have?

Dr. SHAW. Yes; I don't know whether the clothes would have occasioned this or not.

Mr. SPECTER. My question would be that perhaps some tumbling might have been involved as a result of decrease in velocity as the bullet passed through President Kennedy, whether there was any indication from the surface of the wound which would indicate tumbling.

Dr. SHAW. The wound entrance was an elliptical wound. In other words, it had a long diameter and a short diameter. It didn't have the appearance of a wound caused by a high velocity bullet that had not struck anything else; in other words, a puncture wound.

Now, you have to also take into consideration, however, whether the bullet enters at a right angle or at a tangent. If it enters at a tangent there will be some length to the wound of entrance.

Mr. SPECTER. So, would you say in net that there could have been some tumbling occasioned by having it pass through another body or perhaps the oblique character of entry might have been occasioned by the angle of entry.

Dr. SHAW. Yes; either would have explained a wound of entry.

Mr. SPECTER. Fine, thank you very much, Doctor.

Dr. SHAW. Thank you.

TESTIMONY OF DR. CHARLES FRANCIS GREGORY

The testimony of Dr. Charles Francis Gregory was taken at 2:30 p.m., on March 23, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that at the start of this session that I have here at the moment Dr. Charles Gregory, who has appeared here in response to a letter of request from the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy.