Part 12

Dr. PETERS. I believe Dr. Carrico----

Mr. SPECTER. Any other doctors present?

Dr. PETERS. And Dr. Jenkins was present.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you now covered all of those who were present at that time?

Dr. PETERS. And Dr. Shaw walked into the room and left--for a moment--but he didn't stay. He just sort of glanced at the President and went across the hall. Mrs. Kennedy was in the corner with someone who identified himself as the personal physician of the President--I don't remember his name.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Burkley?

Dr. PETERS. I don't know his name. That's just who he said he was, because he was asking that the President be given some steroids, which was done.

Mr. SPECTER. He requested that.

Dr. PETERS. That's right, he said he should have some steroids because he was an Addisonian.

Mr. SPECTER. What do you mean by that in lay language?

Dr. PETERS. Well, Addison's disease is a disease of the adrenal cortex which is characterized by a deficiency in the elaboration of certain hormones that allow an individual to respond to stress and these hormones are necessary for life, and if they cannot be replaced, the individual may succumb.

Mr. SPECTER. And Dr. Burkley, or whoever was the President's personal physician, made a request that you treat him as an Addisonian?

Dr. PETERS. That's right--he recommended that he be given steroids because he was an Addisonian--that's what he said.

Mr. SPECTER. Were there any nurses present at that time?

Dr. PETERS. I don't remember a nurse being in the room all the time, but they were coming in and out.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you identified all the people who were present to the best of your recollection?

Dr. PETERS. Did I mention Dr. Robert McClelland, he was also there.

Mr. SPECTER. Was Dr. Dulany there?

Dr. PETERS. I don't remember him, he may have been.

Mr. SPECTER. Who else was there, if anyone, that you can recall, or have you now given me everyone you can recall?

Dr. PETERS. Well, I am giving you my impression of the situation as I walked in and those are the ones I remember right now. Dr. Kemp Clark also came in during the maneuvering.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, who else came in during the course of the operative procedures?

Dr. PETERS. The anesthesiologists, Drs. Jenkins and Gene Akin, I believe, came in.

Mr. SPECTER. Did anyone else come in?

Dr. PETERS. I am not certain of anyone else.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, tell us what aid was rendered to President Kennedy.

Dr. PETERS. Dr. Perry and Dr. Baxter were doing the tracheotomy and a set of tracheotomy tubes was obtained and the appropriate size was determined and I gave it to Baxter, who helped Perry put it into the wound, and Perry noted also that there appeared to be a bubbling sensation in the chest and recommended that chest tubes be put in. Dr. Ron Jones put a chest tube in on the left side and Dr. Baxter and I put it in on the right side--I made the incision in the President's chest, and I noted that there was no bleeding from the wound.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you put that chest tube all the way in on the right side?

Dr. PETERS. That's our presumption--yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And what else was done for the President?

Dr. PETERS. About the same time--there was a question of whether he really had an adequate pulse, and so Dr. Ronald Jones and I pulled his pants down and noticed that he was wearing his brace which had received a lot of publicity in the lay press, and also that he had an elastic bandage wrapped around his pelvis at--in a sort of a figure eight fashion, so as to encompass both thighs and the lower trunk.

Mr. SPECTER. What was the purpose of that bandage?

Dr. PETERS. I presume that it was--my thoughts at the time were that he probably had been having pelvic pain and had put this on as an additional support to stabilize his lower pelvis. It seemed quite interesting to me that the President of the United States had on an ordinary $3 Ace bandage probably in an effort to stabilize his pelvis. I suppose he had been having some back pain and that was my thought at the time, but we removed this bandage in an effort to feel a femoral pulse. We were never certain that we got a good pulse.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you describe in as much detail as you can the type of brace he was wearing?

Dr. PETERS. Well, it appeared similar to a corset.

Mr. SPECTER. How thick was it?

Dr. PETERS. I would estimate it was one-eighth of an inch.

Mr. SPECTER. An eighth of an inch thick?

Dr. PETERS. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And how high was it?

Dr. PETERS. Well, it completely encompassed his midsection.

Mr. SPECTER. It encompassed his midsection?

Dr. PETERS. His circumference--yes--and it was probably, I would guess about 8 to 11 inches.

Mr. SPECTER. In width?

Dr. PETERS. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Running in his waist area at the top of his hips up to the lower part of his chest?

Dr. PETERS. I would estimate that it went from the lower part of his chest to the pelvic girdle. About this time it was noted also that he had no effective heart action, and Dr. Perry asked whether he should open the chest and massage the heart. In the meantime, of course, the tracheotomy had been done and completed and had been hooked on to apparatus for assisting his respiration.

Mr. SPECTER. And what action, if any, was taken on the open-heart massage?

Dr. PETERS. It was pointed out that an examination of the brain had been done. Dr. Jenkins had observed the brain and Dr. Clark had observed the brain and it was pointed out to Dr. Perry that it appeared to be a mortal wound, and involving the brain, and that open-heart massage would probably not add anything to what had already been done, and that external cardiac massage is known to be as efficient as direct massage of the heart itself.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there any further treatment rendered to the President?

Dr. PETERS. Yes, Dr. Perry began immediate external compression of the chest in an effort to massage the heart, even before he asked the question as to whether the thoracotomy should be done. As soon as there was a question as to whether there was a pulse or not, he immediately began external chest compression.

Mr. SPECTER. What other action was taken to aid the President, if any?

Dr. PETERS. Well, cut downs were done on the extremities, and tubes were inserted in the veins, and I know on the right ankle anteriorly, and I believe in the left arm and also in the left leg, in order to administer fluid and blood which he did receive.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you now described all of the medical attention given the President?

Dr. PETERS. Well, I believe I have.

Mr. SPECTER. And was the President subsequently pronounced dead?

Dr. PETERS. That's correct.

Mr. SPECTER. And about what time was that pronouncement made?

Dr. PETERS. I could not give you the time within 5 or 10 minutes--I can tell you this much, though, I know what actually did happen.

Mr. SPECTER. Tell me that.

Dr. PETERS. I was--we pronounced him dead and I was in the room, present while the priest gave him the last rites, during which time there was Dr. Jenkins and Dr. Baxter and Dr. McClelland, Mrs. Kennedy, the priest, and myself. Dr. Perry had left, as had most of the others by that time.

Mr. SPECTER. Why did you remain?

Dr. PETERS. Well, I just hadn't gotten out of the door when the priest first came in and Dr. Jenkins asked everyone to leave except those people I have just named.

Mr. SPECTER. Why did he exclude those from the group which were to leave?

Dr. PETERS. Well, I think they were nurses, and several other people he thought just best not remain and I'm sure that there was no intention to personally exclude anyone behind his request. He just sort of looked around and saw who appeared to be there and asked the others to leave.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe as to the nature of the President's wound?

Dr. PETERS. Well, as I mentioned, the neck wound had already been interfered with by the tracheotomy at the time I got there, but I noticed the head wound, and as I remember--I noticed that there was a large defect in the occiput.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you notice in the occiput?

Dr. PETERS. It seemed to me that in the right occipitalparietal area that there was a large defect. There appeared to be bone loss and brain loss in the area.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you notice any holes below the occiput, say, in this area below here?

Dr. PETERS. No, I did not and at the time and the moments immediately following the injury, we speculated as to whether he had been shot once or twice because we saw the wound of entry in the throat and noted the large occipital wound, and it is a known fact that high velocity missiles often have a small wound of entrance and a large wound of exit, and I'm just giving you my honest impressions at the time.

Mr. SPECTER. What were they?

Dr. PETERS. Well, I wondered whether or not he had been shot once or twice--that was my question at the time.

Mr. SPECTER. When you say "we speculate," whom do you mean by that?

Dr. PETERS. Well, the doctors in attendance there.

Mr. SPECTER. Any doctor specifically?

Dr. PETERS. I wouldn't mention anyone specifically, we all discussed it. I did not know whether or not he had been shot once or twice.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have an opportunity to observe the wound on his neck prior to the time the tracheotomy was performed?

Dr. PETERS. No, I did not. The tracheotomy was already being done by Dr. Baxter and Dr. Perry when I got in the room. I did not see the wound on his neck.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you make any written reports on the treatment of President Kennedy?

Dr. PETERS. No, I did not; no one asked me to.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you prepare any notes of any sort, or do you have any notes of any sort?

Dr. PETERS. No; I do not.

Mr. SPECTER. What was the cause of death in your opinion?

Dr. PETERS. I would assume that it was irreversible damage to the centers in the brain which control the heart and respiration.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you talked to any representatives of the Federal Government about this matter prior to today?

Dr. PETERS. No; I have not.

Mr. SPECTER. And prior to the time the court reporter came in, did you and I have a brief discussion as to the nature of this deposition and the questions that I would ask you?

Dr. PETERS. No; I was not informed as to any specific questions. I knew the general nature of the testimony which I would give.

Mr. SPECTER. From the discussion?

Dr. PETERS. From the letter I had received from the counsel signed by Mr. Rankin.

Mr. SPECTER. And did you and I have a brief conversation here in this room today before the court reporter came in?

Dr. PETERS. Yes; we did.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add which you think might be of assistance to the President's Commission in its investigation?

Dr. PETERS. I do not--regarding the immediate condition of the President.

Mr. SPECTER. Thank you very much for coming, Dr. Peters, we are very much obliged to you.

Dr. PETERS. Thank you.

TESTIMONY OF DR. ADOLPH HARTUNG GIESECKE, JR.

The testimony of Dr. Adolph Hartung Giesecke, Jr., was taken at 1:40 p.m., on March 25, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the Presidents Commission.

Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that Dr. A. H. Giesecke, Jr., is present in response to a letter request from the Commission to appear at this deposition proceeding in connection with the President's Commission to Investigate the Assassination of President Kennedy, including his medical treatment at Parkland Hospital.

Dr. Giesecke has been asked to appear to testify about his knowledge of the treatment that President Kennedy and Governor Connally received at Parkland Hospital on November 22, and with that preliminary statement of purpose and objective, would you please stand up, Dr. Giesecke, and raise your right hand?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give before this President's Commission in these deposition proceedings will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Dr. GIESECKE. Yes; I do.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you state your full name, please, for the record?

Dr. GIESECKE. Adolph Hartung Giesecke, Jr. H-a-r-t-u-n-g (spelling).

Mr. SPECTER. What is your profession?

Dr. GIESECKE. I am a physician and anesthesiologist.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you duly licensed to practice medicine in the State of Texas?

Dr. GIESECKE. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you board-certified?

Dr. GIESECKE. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you working for board-certification?

Dr. GIESECKE. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you outline briefly your educational background, please?

Dr. GIESECKE. I graduated--how far back do you want me to go?

Mr. SPECTER. Start with college, graduation from college, if you would, please.

Dr. GIESECKE. I was on an accelerated plan through the University of Texas but have no college degree. I matriculated to medical school in 1953, September 1953, graduated May 30, 1957, from the University of Texas Medical Branch at Galveston, Tex. I did my internship at William Beaumont Army Hospital at El Paso, following which I served 24 months on active duty in the Army as an aviation medical officer. I was stationed primarily at the Presidio at San Francisco, Calif. Upon discharge from the Army, I came to Parkland Hospital, completed a 3-year residency in anesthesiology in July 1963. Since that time I have been an assistant professor on the anesthesiology staff at Southwestern Medical School.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to render medical attention to President Kennedy on November 22, 1963?

Dr. GIESECKE. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you outline the circumstances under which you were called into that matter?

Dr. GIESECKE. I was eating lunch in the cafeteria when Dr. Jenkins approached the table and told me that the President had been shot and asked me to bring some resuscitative equipment from the operating room to the emergency room, which I did.

Mr. SPECTER. And at what time did you arrive at the emergency room, approximately?

Dr. GIESECKE. Can I look and see when I induced the Governor?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes. May the record show that Dr. Giesecke is now referring to a letter from A. H. Giesecke, Jr., M.D., to Mr. C. J. Price, administrator, dated November 25, 1963, which I will ask the reporter to mark as "Dr. Giesecke's Exhibit No. 1."

(Instrument referred to marked by the reporter as "Dr. Giesecke Exhibit No. 1," for identification.)

Mr. SPECTER. Let me ask you a question or two, first about this, Dr. Giesecke, to qualify--is this a copy of the report which you submitted to Mr. Price?

Dr. GIESECKE. Yes, that is a real copy.

Mr. SPECTER. And all the facts contained in this report are true and correct?

Dr. GIESECKE. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And do they concern the treatment which was rendered by you to President Kennedy and Governor Connally?

Dr. GIESECKE. That's correct.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, refer to that if you wish, if it will help you answer the last question.

Dr. GIESECKE. I arrived in the emergency room at 12:40 p.m., between 12:40 and 12:45.

Mr. SPECTER. And who was present at the time you arrived?

Dr. GIESECKE. Dr. Jenkins was present, Dr. Carrico, Dr. Dulany, Dr. Baxter, Dr. Perry, Dr. McClelland, and Drs. Akin and Hunt arrived at the same time that I did.

Mr. SPECTER. Were there any other people present, such as nurses?

Dr. GIESECKE. Mrs. Kennedy was in the room--I could not say--I can't say who else was there. There may have been a nurse there, I just don't remember. It seemed to me there was a Secret Service man there too, with Mrs. Kennedy.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you sure Dr. Dulany was there, as distinguished from being with Governor Connally?

Dr. GIESECKE. Perhaps--perhaps--I'm shaky on that.

Mr. SPECTER. The reason I asked you about that specifically is because Dr. Carriro testified this morning that he and Dr. Dulany were on duty and Dr. Dulany went immediately with Governor Connally and Dr. Carrico went to President Kennedy.

Dr. GIESECKE. That may well be.

Mr. SPECTER. What was the condition of the President when you arrived?

Dr. GIESECKE. There was a great deal of blood loss which was apparent when he came in the room--the cart was covered with blood and there was a great deal of blood on the floor. There was--I could see no spontaneous motion on the part of the President. In other words, he made no movement during the time that I was in the room. As I moved around towards the head of the emergency cart with the anesthesia machine and the resuscitative equipment and helped Dr. Jenkins to hook the anesthesia machine up to the President to give him oxygen, I noticed that he had a very large cranial wound, with loss of brain substance, and it seemed that most of the bleeding was coming from the cranial wound.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe specifically as to the nature of the cranial wound?

Dr. GIESECKE. It seemed that from the vertex to the left ear, and from the browline to the occiput on the left-hand side of the head the cranium was entirely missing.

Mr. SPECTER. Was that the left-hand side of the head, or the right-hand side of the head?

Dr. GIESECKE. I would say the left, but this is just my memory of it.

Mr. SPECTER. That's your recollection?

Dr. GIESECKE. Right, like I say, I was there a very short time--really.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any other wound or bullet hole below the large area of missing skull?

Dr. GIESECKE. No; when I arrived the tracheotomy was in progress at that time and so I observed no other wound except the one on the cranium.

Mr. SPECTER. On the cranium itself, did you observe another bullet hole below the portion of missing skull?

Dr. GIESECKE. No, sir; this was found later by Dr. Clark--I didn't see this.

Mr. SPECTER. What makes you say that that hole was found later by Dr. Clark?

Dr. GIESECKE. Well, this is hearsay--I wasn't there when they found it and I didn't notice it.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, Dr. Clark didn't observe that hole.

Dr. GIESECKE. Oh, he didn't--I'm sorry.

Mr. SPECTER. From whom did you hear that the hole had been observed, if you recollect?

Dr. GIESECKE. Oh--I must be confused. We talked to so many people about these things--I don't remember.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, with respect to the condition of the President's neck, what was its status at the time you first observed it?

Dr. GIESECKE. Well, like I say, they were performing the tracheotomy, and I personally saw no wound in the neck other than the tracheotomy wound. As soon as the tracheotomy was completed, we removed the endotracheal tube and hooked the anesthesia machine to the tracheotomy tube and efforts were made then to put in a chest tube, an anterior chest tube.

Mr. SPECTER. How long were you with President Kennedy altogether?

Dr. GIESECKE. Approximately 5 minutes.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you now described everything which was done during the time you were there?

Dr. GIESECKE. No--after having assisted Dr. Jenkins in establishing a ventilation, I then hooked up a cardiotachioscope or an electronic electrocardiographic monitor to the President by putting needles in the skin and plugging the thing in the wall, plugging the monitor in the wall. Before the machine had sufficient time to warm up to see if there were any electrical activity, then I was called out of the room.

Mr. SPECTER. And did you have any occasion to return to the room where the President was?

Dr. GIESECKE. No.

Mr. SPECTER. And where were you called to?

Dr. GIESECKE. I was called across the hall where Governor Connally was being moved out of the emergency treatment room and toward the operating room.

Mr. SPECTER. And what action did you take at that time, if any?

Dr. GIESECKE. I had my equipment with me--I had taken my equipment with me from the room where the President was, having ascertained that Dr. Jenkins didn't need anything that I had, and so I proceeded to the elevator. We moved the equipment and the Governor--the Governor went on the first elevator and I caught the second one.

Mr. SPECTER. And where did you go on the second elevator?

Dr. GIESECKE. To the second floor where the operating suite is, moved off of the elevator and down to operating room 5, which was being set up for the Governor. The Governor had arrived and I obtained from the anesthesia orderly an anesthesia machine, checked it for safe operation, and discussed the Governor's condition a little bit with him, and determined that he was conscious and that he could respond to questions and that he hadn't eaten in the previous several hours, and proceeded to induce an anesthesia.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, are all the details of your activity in connection with Governor Connally's operation contained in the report marked "Dr. Giesecke's Exhibit No. 1"?

Dr. GIESECKE. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, you mentioned a few minutes ago that you talked about this matter with a number of people--whom have you talked to, Dr. Giesecke?

Dr. GIESECKE. Well, of course, we discussed it with Dr. Jenkins and various members of the anesthesia staff. We have discussed it with--I've forgotten that gentleman's name, but he was from the American Medical Association, as a historian. We discussed it with Dr. Mike Bush, who then reported it in the Anesthesiology Newsletter, which is a publication of the American Society of Anesthesiologists, and then discussed it with the Secretary of--may I retract that. That's about it--that's the extent of the discussion, except with other members of the surgical staff and the anesthesia staff and these people.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you ever discussed this matter with any representative of the Federal Government prior to today?

Dr. GIESECKE. Yes; there was a well documented Secret Service man here who said he was from the Warren Commission about a month ago, I imagine.

Mr. SPECTER. What do you mean by "well documented"?

Dr. GIESECKE. Well, I mean he had a badge and a card and he seemed to be legitimate.

Mr. SPECTER. And what did you tell him, if anything?

Dr. GIESECKE. He was asking rather specifically if we had made other notes than the reports that we had already submitted, so in essence it was just a matter of telling him, "No, I didn't have any other information written down except what I had already given."

Mr. SPECTER. And what had you already given--that letter report?

Dr. GIESECKE. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. That is marked "Giesecke Exhibit No. 1"?

Dr. GIESECKE. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Has any other representative talked to you from the Federal Government about this matter?

Dr. GIESECKE. No.

Mr. SPECTER. This afternoon prior to the time we went on the record, did I ask you a few questions and discuss the nature of this deposition proceeding, and did you give me information just as you have on the record here after the court reporter started to take everything down?

Dr. GIESECKE. Yes; that's correct. She was out of the room for a few minutes before we started.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add which you think might be helpful to the Warren Commission in its investigation?

Dr. GIESECKE. No, I think that pretty well covers what I did.

Mr. SPECTER. May I thank you very much, Dr. Giesecke? That's fine.

Dr. GIESECKE. Thank you.

TESTIMONY OF DR. JACKIE HANSEN HUNT

The testimony of Dr. Jackie Hansen Hunt was taken at 1:12 p.m., on March 24, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that Dr. Jackie H. Hunt is present, and may I show for the record that the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy is conducting an inquiry into all the facts surrounding the assassination of the President, and the medical care performed on President Kennedy at Parkland Memorial Hospital.

Dr. Hunt appears here today in response to a letter requesting that her deposition be taken, and may the record reflect the additional fact that Dr. Hunt is a lady doctor.