letter I received from Larrie on October 1--that was typed on October

1, 1963, and mailed on 7 October 1963.

Mr. JENNER. You are looking at the envelope in which the letter was enclosed when you received it?

Mr. WEISSMAN. That is correct. And he states in the last paragraph of his letter in a postscript, "My brother has begun working as an aide to General Walker. He is being paid full time, et cetera. Watch your newspaper for news of huge demonstrations here in Dallas on October 3 and 4 in connection with U.N.-day and Adlai Stevenson speech here. Plans already made, strategy being carried out."

This was the only advance notice I had of this. And I didn't give it too much thought, because he had said many things like it before, just to build something up, and nothing ever came of it.

Mr. JENNER. Is that document signed?

Mr. WEISSMAN. No; it is not.

Mr. JENNER. Does it bear a typed signature?

Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have occasion to speak with Mr. Schmidt respecting the contents of that letter at any time subsequent to your receiving it?

Mr. WEISSMAN. I don't recall.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever talk with him about having received that particular letter, that he acknowledged having sent to you?

Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes; as a matter of fact, I was pretty worried about his brother becoming involved with General Walker, and I thought it might give us a black eye.

Mr. JENNER. And what did you do--call Mr. Schmidt or talk with him on that subject?

Mr. WEISSMAN. I don't recall if I spoke with him, or if I wrote it to him in a letter. I don't recall.

Mr. JENNER. But you had occasion to confirm the fact that the letter now identified as Commission Exhibit No. 1033 was written by Mr. Schmidt and mailed to you in an envelope, which we will mark as Commission Exhibit No. 1033-A?

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 1033-A for identification.)

Mr. JENNER. Did you hear my question?

Mr. WEISSMAN. Repeat it, please.

(The question, as recorded, was read by the reporter.)

Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. So that when you had your telephone conversation which you were in the course of relating, with Mr. Schmidt, you were aware when he made the exclamation which you have described, of that to which he was then referring--that is, the Stevenson incident?

Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Was there anything else in Mr. Schmidt's letter that disturbed you?

Mr. WEISSMAN. I received so many.

Would it be permissible to--excuse me.

Mr. Jenner, would it be permissible to read this letter into the record?

Mr. JENNER. My trouble is, Mr. Weissman, and Mr. Flannery--I haven't seen the letter.

Mr. Chief Justice----

The CHAIRMAN. I suppose Mr. Jenner could see the letter for a moment, couldn't he?

Mr. WEISSMAN. Definitely; yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Flannery, would you be good enough to pass it up?

(At this point, Representative Ford withdrew from the hearing room.)

Mr. WEISSMAN. You see, up to the point of that letter--excuse me.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chief Justice, it is quite apparent to me, from glancing through the letter, that this is a letter that we--in connection with Mr. Weissman's testimony, that we would like to offer in evidence in due course.

And, with that in mind, Mr. Weissman, it will not be necessary for you to read paragraphs from the letter, unless in the course of your testimony you feel it will round out your testimony and serve to refresh your recollection as to events you might wish to relate.

Mr. WEISSMAN. I would like to take a look at it now.

(At this point, Representative Ford reentered the hearing room.)

Mr. JENNER. Ready?

Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Reporter, would you be good enough to read, let us say, the last question and answer of the witness?

(The question and answer, as recorded, was read by the reporter.)

Mr. JENNER. The point I was making, Mr. Weissman, was that when you received the telephone call about which you were testifying, in which Mr. Schmidt exclaimed, "I have made it for us," or words to that effect, you were then aware of that to which he was referring, at least in general?

Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. So that was the reason why you didn't ask him to elaborate upon what he meant by, "I have made it for us"?

Mr. WEISSMAN. Right. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. And that was the fact that he, as you understood it, am I correct in saying, had had something to do with the organization of the picketing or other demonstrations at the time that Mr. Stevenson made his visit to Dallas?

Mr. WEISSMAN. Well, at the time I was almost--Larrie led me to believe that he had organized the whole thing. And it transpired when I got to Dallas that I found that he had led a group of 11 University of Dallas students in quiet picketing near the entrance to the auditorium, and didn't engage in any physical violence of any sort.

Mr. JENNER. But up to the time that you arrived in Dallas, you were under the impression that he had had a more extensive part?

Mr. WEISSMAN. This is what he led me to believe. In other words, he was trying to--he wanted to get me to Dallas in the worst way. And he wanted it to look like he was on the hot seat and he would be there unless I came down to help him. In other words, he is throwing my obligation at me. And trying to convince me in various ways, as I mentioned, to come down there, so we can get moving on what we had planned in Munich.

Mr. JENNER. Did you receive a letter from him dated October 29, 1963, a copy of which I have marked as Commission Exhibit No. 1032, and I tender to you. You may have the original among your papers.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 1032 for identification.)

Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes; I did receive this letter, Exhibit No. 1032, from Larrie, about the 29th of October.

Mr. JENNER. And, gentlemen of the Commission, this is a letter dated, as the witness has stated--it is addressed to, "Dear Bernie and Bill," and I assume Bill is----

Mr. WEISSMAN. Bill Burley.

Mr. JENNER. He was then staying with you in New York?

Mr. WEISSMAN. Right.

Mr. JENNER. And it is signed Larrie. By the way, do you have the original of this letter with you?

Mr. WEISSMAN. I don't think so. Let me see. No; as a matter of fact, I believe the situation was when I gave the letter to the FBI, they asked me if I needed it back right away, and I said no--I didn't see any value in it, frankly. And then I spoke with Mr. Reedy, the agent who had conducted the investigation at the FBI headquarters in New York, and he said, "Do you want the letter?" And I said, "I don't particularly need it," and I don't recall if I ever got it back.

Mr. JENNER. All right. But the document which has been marked with an exhibit number is a true and correct copy of the letter you received from Larrie Schmidt?

Mr. WEISSMAN. It seems to be; yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Now, in that letter, there is a reference to CUSA in capital letters. What is CUSA, what was CUSA? What was its genesis?

Mr. WEISSMAN. Well, CUSA, the letters stand for Conservatism USA, for lack of a better name. Larrie had originally founded this himself--as far as I know he had originally founded this himself in Munich some time in 1961.

Mr. JENNER. You mean it was a concept of his?

Mr. WEISSMAN. I don't know if it was his. But I was led to believe the concept was his; and when I became associated with him, almost a year after he had started to develop this organization----

Mr. JENNER. And while you were still in the Army?

Mr. WEISSMAN. While I was still in the Army; right.

Representative BOGGS. What was your rank in the Army?

Mr. WEISSMAN. Private, first class.

Representative BOGGS. That is when you completed your service?

Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes; at the time I was pfc, also.

Representative BOGGS. How long were you in the Army?

Mr. WEISSMAN. Two years.

Representative BOGGS. When you were separated you were private, first class?

Mr. WEISSMAN. That is right. Here is how it came about. I had been in the field on an Army training test. And I had been discussing just political views, foreign policy especially.

Mr. DULLES. Is this Germany, now?

Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes; this is Germany.

Mr. JENNER. Who was the overall commander in Germany at that time?

Mr. WEISSMAN. The overall commander?

Mr. JENNER. Was General Walker one of the commanders at that time?

Mr. WEISSMAN. No; he had been removed at that time. In any case, he would have been about 60 or 70 miles--he was based in Landshut, Germany.

In any case, I was on this army training test with my company, MP Company, and I was talking to the company clerk--he had a book. We just got onto a discussion of politics, just generally. And I expounded some views on foreign policy, and where I agreed or disagreed. And I went into some great detail. And he said, "Gee, if I didn't know better I would say it is Larrie speaking."

And I said, "What do you mean?"

And he went into this CUSA organization. He was at that time a partner in CUSA. It was set up as a business.

Representative BOGGS. What does CUSA mean?

Mr. WEISSMAN. Conservatism USA.

Representative BOGGS. What was Mr. Schmidt's rank?

Mr. WEISSMAN. He was specialist fourth class, SP-4, and he was in charge of public relations for Armed Forces Recreation Centers.

Mr. JENNER. How old a man is he?

Mr. WEISSMAN. Larrie is 26 or 27.

Mr. JENNER. About the same age as yours?

Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And Mr. Burley?

Mr. WEISSMAN. Twenty-nine now, I believe.

Mr. JENNER. A little older--about 2 years older than you and Mr. Schmidt.

Mr. WEISSMAN. In there. A year and a half, 2 years, yes.

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. What was his rank?

Mr. WEISSMAN. Corporal. At the time that I met Bill he was a pfc. In fact, Bill Burley didn't become really involved in this until, I would say, 2 or 3 months before we left Germany. We left there about the same time, we were discharged about the same time; and, anyway, I was talking to the company clerk, Norman Baker, who was a partner in CUSA. I didn't know this at the time; but he just said he wanted to introduce me to somebody.

Mr. JENNER. What was the rank of the company clerk?

Mr. WEISSMAN. At that time--I think he was the only corporal company clerk in the army. And he introduced me to Larrie several weeks later after we had returned from the field.

They tried to pull a big snow job, saying public relations and so on and so forth, just to sort of impress me, and they did. They worked very well together; and, in any case, I became involved in it.

I don't recollect the step-by-step involvement--just that I jumped in with both feet, because I liked the idea.

Mr. JENNER. This was Conservatism USA, and it consisted of an idea at this particular time?

Mr. WEISSMAN. Right.

Mr. JENNER. And associated with that idea were these people, Larrie Schmidt, yourself, was Burley----

Mr. WEISSMAN. At that time, I don't think so.

Mr. JENNER. But he did become?

Mr. WEISSMAN. Later.

Mr. JENNER. And the company clerk--what was his name?

Mr. WEISSMAN. Norman Baker.

Mr. JENNER. And yourself--what was that--five? Were there any others?

Mr. WEISSMAN. There were others, but it was the sort of thing where they were involved but not involved. They were just sort of going along for the ride, because it was interesting, and you might say a little diverse from the humdrum army life.

Mr. JENNER. Was CUSA ever organized formally in the sense of corporate organization or drafting of partnership papers and registration under the Assumed Name Act in Texas?

Mr. WEISSMAN. In Texas; no.

Mr. JENNER. I take it it was organized?

Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes; it was.

Mr. JENNER. As a corporation or partnership?

Mr. WEISSMAN. As a partnership.

Mr. JENNER. In what state?

Mr. WEISSMAN. In Munich, Germany.

Mr. JENNER. I see. And that was a sort of declaration among you?

Mr. WEISSMAN. It was a written declaration; yes.

Mr. JENNER. Who drafted that?

Mr. WEISSMAN. We did--that is, we called ourselves--the hangers-on were identified as the outer circle, and the partners were the inner circle. This was just for ease of identification. This, I think, would be the easiest way to really express it.

And the partners, the five partners, were the inner circle, the leaders of this organization; and----

The CHAIRMAN. Gentlemen, may I interrupt for just a minute? I have an appointment I must keep at the court.

Congressman Ford, will you preside, please?

Representative FORD. Surely.

(At this point, Chief Justice Warren withdrew from the hearing room.)

Representative FORD. Will you proceed, please, Mr. Jenner.

Mr. JENNER. Thank you. In short compass, tell us the objectives of CUSA.

Mr. WEISSMAN. Well, the objectives of CUSA were substantially to set up a political business organization. We used a rough comparison with Ford and the Ford Foundation as an example. The Ford Foundation would be CUSA, Conservatism USA, and the Ford would be AMBUS, or American business.

Mr. JENNER. What was AMBUS?

Mr. WEISSMAN. American business. This was the business half of the political organization.

Mr. JENNER. This was to be a combination of business and politics?

Mr. WEISSMAN. Right. We were going to use the business end----

Mr. JENNER. Which you called AMBUS?

Mr. WEISSMAN. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. That would be----

Mr. WEISSMAN. American business, or American businesses.

Mr. JENNER. I don't get the initials. A-B-U-S?

Mr. WEISSMAN. A-M-B-U-S--American business.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mr. WEISSMAN. And we were trying to develop, in our own minds, without actually doing it at the time, ways to build up various businesses that would support us and at the same time support our political activities.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Could I characterize it this way--that a material objective of this group or partnership was ultimately a self-interest in business?

Mr. WEISSMAN. No.

Mr. JENNER. Coupled with a political arm which was to aid or assist in the business, and each was to feed the other?

Mr. WEISSMAN. The business arm was to be developed mainly to feed the political arm.

(At this point, Representative Ford withdrew from the hearing room.)

Mr. WEISSMAN. We were mainly interested in the political end. At least this is my feeling on it. Mainly interested in the political end. And the business end, while, of course, we hoped it would succeed, in my mind was merely to support us politically.

(At this point, Representative Ford reentered the hearing room.)

Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, as of this moment, Mr. Weissman, there were the five of you only. There were no others who were part of the combination business-political group?

Mr. WEISSMAN. We left out one man, one of the original men. His name was James Moseley.

Mr. JENNER. Was he a GI with you?

Mr. WEISSMAN. No; he was an American civilian. His father was a major--is a major in the Army.

Mr. JENNER. And was he an acquaintance of yours?

Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Prior to this time?

Mr. WEISSMAN. Not prior to this. I met him when I went into the organization.

Mr. JENNER. I see. Was he an acquaintance of Mr. Schmidt's?

Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. How did he get in, is what I am getting at? How did he get into this little group here?

Mr. WEISSMAN. They all hung around the same bar.

Mr. JENNER. What bar?

Mr. WEISSMAN. The Gastatte Lukullus.

Representative BOGGS. How far was that from the bar where Hitler used to gather?

Mr. WEISSMAN. A couple of miles, I think.

Mr. JENNER. It is a bar in Munich?

Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes. It is a GI guest house.

Mr. JENNER. This man you have now mentioned, Moseley, was a civilian in Germany?

Mr. WEISSMAN. He was a civilian; yes.

Mr. JENNER. How did he come to be in Munich? Was his father stationed there?

Mr. WEISSMAN. His father was stationed there. But he was also employed by Rambler--he was selling Ramblers.

Mr. JENNER. What is Mr. Moseley's hometown?

Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. What is Mr. Mosley's hometown?

Mr. WEISSMAN. I believe it is New York. I am not sure.

Mr. JENNER. How old a man is he?

Mr. WEISSMAN. He is a pretty young fellow. He is about 21.

Mr. JENNER. Now, have you named all of you who were the nucleus of this group?

Mr. WEISSMAN. To my recollection, yes.

Mr. JENNER. Had you finished your statement as to the general--the general statement as to the purpose of this organization which consisted of the two arms?

Mr. WEISSMAN. Not completely. I think what might bear directly is we had planned while in Munich that in order to accomplish our goals, to try to do it from scratch would be almost impossible, because it would be years before we could even get the funds to develop a powerful organization. So we had planned to infiltrate various rightwing organizations and by our own efforts become involved in the hierarchy of these various organizations and eventually get ourselves elected or appointed to various higher offices in these organizations, and by doing this bring in some of our own people, and eventually take over the leadership of these organizations, and at that time having our people in these various organizations, we would then, you might say, call a conference and have them unite, and while no one knew of the existence of CUSA aside from us, we would then bring them all together, unite them, and arrange to have it called CUSA.

Mr. JENNER. You never accomplished this, did you?

Mr. WEISSMAN. Almost. Here is how far we did get.

Larrie had--and this was according to plan--the first organization we planned to infiltrate was the NIC, National Indignation Convention, headed by Frank McGee in Dallas. About a week or so after Larrie got to Dallas he got himself a job with the NIC, as one of the very few paid men.

This didn't last too long, because a few weeks after that the NIC went under. And we had also--in other words, we had planned to use these organizations as vehicles to accomplish----

Mr. JENNER. Keep going on those details of your infiltration.

Mr. WEISSMAN. All right. We had planned to infiltrate these various rightwing organizations.

Mr. JENNER. You mentioned one.

Mr. WEISSMAN. The NIC. The Young Americans for Freedom. We succeeded there.

Mr JENNER. What organization is that?

Mr. WEISSMAN. The Young Americans for Freedom? This was an organization essentially of conservative youths, college students, and if I recall I think the most they ever accomplished was running around burning baskets from Yugoslavia.

Mr. JENNER. Where was it based?

Mr. WEISSMAN. This is southwest. Regional headquarters was in Dallas, Tex., Box 2364.

Mr. JENNER. And the earlier organization, the organization you mentioned a moment ago, NIC--where was that based?

Mr. WEISSMAN. Dallas.

Mr. JENNER. All right. What is the next one?

Mr. WEISSMAN. We had also discussed getting some people in with General Walker, getting some people into the John Birch Society.

Mr. JENNER. Stick with General Walker for a moment. To what extent were you able to infiltrate, as you call it, General Walker's group?

Mr. WEISSMAN. Well, this was rather a fiasco. Larrie's brother, as I mentioned in the letter--Larrie's brother went to work for General Walker.

Mr. JENNER. What was his name?

Mr. WEISSMAN. I don't know his first name. But Larrie led me to believe his brother was some guy. His brother is about 29. And the only thing I ever heard from Larrie about his brother was good; and when he mentioned that his brother had joined the Walker organization, I figured this is another step in the right direction. In other words, he was solidifying his argument as to why I should come to Dallas.

Mr. JENNER. And this is what he told you?

Mr. WEISSMAN. Right. So when I got to Dallas, I found that Larrie's brother drank too much, and he had--well, I considered him a moron. He didn't have any sense at all. He was very happy with $35 a week and room and board that General Walker was giving him as his chauffeur and general aide. And so I tossed that out the window that we would never get into the Walker organization this way.

Mr. JENNER. This man's name, by any chance, was not Volkmar?

Mr. WEISSMAN. This name is entirely unfamiliar to me. Never heard it before.

Senator COOPER. Could you identify the Walker organization? You keep speaking of the Walker organization.

Mr. WEISSMAN. General Edwin Walker.

Mr. JENNER. General Edwin A. Walker?

Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever meet him?

Mr. WEISSMAN. No; I never have.

Representative FORD. How did you infiltrate the Young Americans for Freedom, and what led you to believe you had been successful?

Mr. WEISSMAN. Well, Larrie had been named executive secretary of the Dallas chapter of the Young Americans for Freedom. And another man--his name is in one of these letters somewhere--I don't recall it offhand--who was brought into CUSA by Larrie, was named chairman or vice chairman--vice chairman. And the only other move that we had to make in order to take control of Dallas Young Americans for Freedom would have been to get rid of the chairman, who was anti-Larrie Schmidt. He was absolutely no help to us. And this was on its way to accomplishment. But for some reason or another, there was some sort of an argument. I am still not clear on what happened. I wasn't there. I just can take it secondhand from Larrie.

A friend of Larrie's had come to Dallas--this was Larry Jones, another partner in----

Mr. JENNER. He is mentioned in some of these interviews. Did you meet Larry Jones?

Mr. WEISSMAN. I didn't meet him in Dallas; no. He was gone before I got there. But Larry had come to Dallas, he had stayed a few weeks, had made friends with these people, and I had advocated many and many a time--I saw through Larry the first time I met him--is to get rid of this guy, because he was not going to do us any good.

Mr. JENNER. You did meet Jones?

Mr. WEISSMAN. In the Army; yes.

Mr. JENNER. You met Larry Jones in the Army?

Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes. We were all on the same post.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, if you will permit, I would like to go back to that at this moment.

Representative FORD. Surely.

Mr. JENNER. This was another man. You hadn't mentioned him before.

Mr. WEISSMAN. I didn't? I thought I did.

Mr. JENNER. What rank was he?

Mr. WEISSMAN. SP-4, Specialist-4.

Mr. JENNER. That wasn't the company clerk?

Mr. WEISSMAN. No. Larry worked for headquarters. He was in communications--the scramblers and so forth.

Mr. JENNER. Seeking to scramble broadcasts?

Mr. WEISSMAN. No. In other words, they would send out the secret messages and so forth from commander to commander and so on.

Mr. DULLES. These were military messages?

Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. How old a man was Larry Jones?

Mr. WEISSMAN. Larry--he looked 30. I think he is 21.

Mr. JENNER. Do you have the charter or partnership agreement of CUSA with you?

Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes; I do.

Mr. JENNER. I wonder if I could see that.

Mr. WEISSMAN. Sure.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman; the document consists of two pages which have been identified as Commission Exhibit No. 1034. It is entitled "Corporate Structure of American Business, Inc.," naming as incorporators or partners, Larrie H. Schmidt, Larry C. Jones, Bernie Weissman, James L. Moseley, Norman F. Baker. It purports to be signed in those names as well on the second page.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 1034 for identification.)

Mr. JENNER. I notice on the first page that after each of those names there appear to be some initials. Are those the initials of those respective men?

Mr. WEISSMAN. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. And were those initials placed on there in your presence?

Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes; they were.

Mr. JENNER. The signatures that appear under each of those names or above each of those names on the second page, those are the signatures of those men, including your own?

Mr. WEISSMAN. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. Were they placed on there in your presence?

Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes, they were.

Representative FORD. Do you want that admitted at this time, Mr. Jenner?

Mr. JENNER. I was going to offer these documents in sequence, if it suits the convenience of the Chairman. If we may return now, Mr. Weissman, please, to your efforts to infiltrate various conservative groups----

Senator COOPER. May I ask a question there? I may have to leave in a few minutes. Was there any time when your organization drew up a list of organizations, of other organizations, that it wanted to infiltrate?

Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Do you have that list with you?

Mr. WEISSMAN. I don't know. I have lost an awful lot of it. I might.

Mr. JENNER. Would you look, please?

Mr. WEISSMAN. No; I don't have it.

Senator COOPER. May I ask, then--can he name from memory the organizations?

Mr. JENNER. Using your recollection, sir, and it appears to be very good, if I may compliment you----

Mr. WEISSMAN. Thank you.

Mr. JENNER. Would you do your best to respond to Senator Cooper's question by naming those various groups?

Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes. One was the NIC.

Mr. JENNER. When you use initials, will you spell out what the initials mean?

Mr. WEISSMAN. National Indignation Convention, headed by Frank McGee, in Dallas, Tex.

Young Americans for Freedom, which encompassed the southwest. The initials are YAF.

Mr. JENNER. Located in Dallas?

Mr. WEISSMAN. Regional headquarters in Dallas. John Birch Society.

Mr. JENNER. Where was the John Birch--was there a chapter or headquarters in Dallas?

Mr. WEISSMAN. There are several chapters in Dallas; yes. And as far as I can recollect, that is as far as we went.

Representative BOGGS. What did you hope to accomplish by this infiltration, as you call it?

Mr. WEISSMAN. Well, I will be very blunt.

Representative BOGGS. That is what I would like for you to be.

Mr. WEISSMAN. We were, you might say--at least I personally--this is my reason--I was sick and tired of seeing America as a weak sister all the time. And this is especially in the field of foreign affairs, where it seemed that our administration, whether it is the Eisenhower or the Kennedy administration, both of them, had no set, stable foreign policy. We were constantly losing ground all over the world. We were going to conference tables with everything to lose and nothing to gain, and coming away by losing.

And we hoped by developing a powerful political organization we could exert some influence on the government and eventually even put, you might say, our man in the White House, let's say, in order to obtain a stable policy--because we felt that the Communists were gaining ground all over the place, we were doing nothing but losing.

Representative BOGGS. Did you have a candidate for the Presidency?

Mr. WEISSMAN. Excuse me?

Representative BOGGS. Did you have a candidate--you said your man.

Mr. WEISSMAN. I wouldn't say we had a candidate. We had looked to Barry Goldwater as personifying Mr. Conservative. And we had stated in writing, though, that we would support him for the Presidency, but we were not obligated to support him or any other individual.

Representative BOGGS. Are you still in this business?

Mr. WEISSMAN. No.

Representative BOGGS. What are you doing now?

Mr. WEISSMAN. I am a salesman, I sell carpets.

Representative BOGGS. You have given up this goal?

Mr. WEISSMAN. Well, if I had money I didn't know what to do with, I would get back into it--only I would do it myself, because I found that in order to accomplish these aims--I mentioned before I considered myself an idealist. I found in order to accomplish these goals I had to against my will prostitute my ideals in order to further the general cause of the organization.

Representative BOGGS. What ideals did you find you had to prostitute?

Mr. WEISSMAN. I personally didn't want to associate with the John Birch Society.

Representative BOGGS. You did not want to?

Mr. WEISSMAN. No; I did not.

Representative BOGGS. Why didn't you?

Mr. WEISSMAN. Well; they are rather extreme, I thought. I didn't like some of the things they were doing. For example, I didn't want to spend my days and nights sneaking into bathrooms around the country, pasting up "Impeach Earl Warren" stickers.

Representative BOGGS. Is that what they do?

Mr. WEISSMAN. This is part of their program. And I can't see any use in it, frankly. In other words, it is just little things like this. Plus the fact that after I got to Dallas, I found that most of the people who are professing anti-communism, they were, they were definitely anti-Communists. But, at the same time, it seemed to me to be nothing but a conglomeration of racists, and bigots and so forth.

Representative BOGGS. What do you mean by that--bigots?

Mr. WEISSMAN. They are anti-everything, it seems.

Representative BOGGS. Are you Jewish?

Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes; I am.

Representative BOGGS. Were they anti-Jewish?

Mr. WEISSMAN. Too many of them, yes. It was requested at one time that I change my name.

Representative BOGGS. Is that right?

Mr. WEISSMAN. That is right.

Representative BOGGS. What did you tell them?

Mr. WEISSMAN. Excuse me?

Representative BOGGS. What did you tell them? Did you change your name?

Mr. WEISSMAN. No, sir.

Representative BOGGS. Well, did you find this request unusual?

Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes; I did, as a matter of fact, I got pretty mad.

Representative BOGGS. When you were in Germany, did you find sometimes, particularly in Munich, as long as you opened this line of replies, that some of the Nazi-alleged anticommunism was also associated with their racist policies?

Mr. WEISSMAN. In what vein are you using Nazi?

Representative BOGGS. Well, of course, you know they exterminated quite a few members of your religion in Germany.

Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes.

Representative BOGGS. That is a fact; is it not?

Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes; it is.

Representative BOGGS. I am using Nazi in the normal term of state dictatorship, with all that it implies. I am sure you have worked on foreign policy, you understand what I mean.

Mr. WEISSMAN. I think you are giving me a little too much credit. But I think I can answer your question.

Representative BOGGS. I would like for you to.

Mr. WEISSMAN. At no time did I, and to my knowledge, in Germany, did we consider ourselves fascists or Nazis. As a matter of fact, in my every conversation, and everything I had written----

Representative BOGGS. I didn't ask you whether you had considered yourself as a fascist----

Mr. WEISSMAN. Or any of my associates, sir.

Representative BOGGS. Or any of your associates. I asked you if in your study of events in Germany, having been stationed there, that you didn't soon associate, or that you didn't see some association in your mind of the alleged so-called extreme right with naziism.

Mr. WEISSMAN. No. In fact, I never thought--I thought of the extremists as superpatriots. I had never really defined the term fascist or Nazi in my own mind----

Representative BOGGS. Of course, you realize that members of your religion in Germany were described as traitors, treasonable, and Communists. And I presume that on the other side of the coin those making the accusation classified themselves as superpatriots.

Mr. WEISSMAN. This is quite true. But you are getting into a field right now that at the time----

Representative BOGGS. Were you surprised when you discovered this anti-Jewish feeling? You must have been somewhat, shall I say, disappointed when one of your associates asked you to change your name. I would think that was right insulting.

Mr. WEISSMAN. It was downright insulting, as a matter of fact. No, I wasn't surprised. Now----

Mr. DULLES. Did you have something on this in your letter? I noticed you looking through that letter a minute ago. I thought maybe you had something on this very point in your letter.

Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes. I received a letter from Larrie, while I was in Germany.

Mr. JENNER. Is this another document to which no reference has been made?

Mr. WEISSMAN. I am not sure whether this is the one I want to read from. But this letter is an answer that I wrote Larrie.

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, sir. I want to put an exhibit number on that.

This will be exhibit--Commission Exhibit No. 1035.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 1035 for identification.)

Representative BOGGS. I would like for a moment to pursue this a bit. This gentleman is telling us something that I think is very significant. You have a letter there about changing your name?

Mr. WEISSMAN. This is my answer. I would like to read just this one paragraph.

Representative BOGGS. Who was this addressed to?

Mr. WEISSMAN. This was addressed to Larrie Schmidt.

Representative BOGGS. Did he ask you to change your name?

Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes.

Representative BOGGS. He was your associate?

Mr. WEISSMAN. He didn't ask me directly. He had written a letter to Larry Jones, and Larry Jones gave me the letter.

Mr. JENNER. Where was Larry Jones at this time?

Mr. WEISSMAN. In Germany.

Mr. JENNER. You are now reading from Commission Exhibit No.----

Mr. WEISSMAN. Exhibit No. 1035. This is dated Munich, Germany, January 7, 1963.

(At this point, Senator Cooper withdrew from the hearing room.)

Mr. JENNER. It is addressed to whom?

Mr. WEISSMAN. Larrie Schmidt.

Mr. JENNER. And I take it it is your letter to Larrie Schmidt.

Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did you dispatch the letter?

Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes; I did.

Mr. JENNER. And is that a true and correct copy of the original that you did dispatch to Larrie Schmidt?

Mr. WEISSMAN. Erasures and all; yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And did you become aware of the fact subsequently to your mailing that letter that he received it?

Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. You had occasion to discuss it with him?

Mr. WEISSMAN. He sent me a letter.

Mr. JENNER. He responded?

Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes; he did.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Do you have his response?

Mr. WEISSMAN. I don't know. I have his response. I don't know if it is with me.

Representative BOGGS. Let's first have what he said.

Mr. WEISSMAN. Paragraph 2 on the second page, "Larrie, as relates to the political goals of CUSA and the methods of achieving them, I (not alone)"--meaning Bill Burley--"do not wholly support your ideas as concerning the NIC and related or affiliated organizations. It seems to us that this type of organization smacks of hypocrisy. I feel that any type of organization that we choose to support or begin to take support from should be free from the racism and prejudice in general that is rampant among the high officers of the NIC. It should be obvious to you that once we associate ourselves with these people, we may acquire a personal reputation that can never be lived down. I am sure you have considered this yourself, because I remember we had talked of it several times. Larrie, let me remind you that my zeal has not slackened, but that I did not want to compromise myself or my ideals for the sake of accomplishing our goals a year ahead of time. I know and you know that we can do a fantastic job once we get together again with or without these organizations."

Representative BOGGS. What do you say about your name, though?

Mr. WEISSMAN. About my name?

Representative BOGGS. Yes. Changing your name.

Mr. WEISSMAN. I didn't refer to it directly. In other words, in the