Part 71

Mr. HOSTY. The only other thing that they sent was a photograph of Lee Oswald taken at the New Orleans Police Department when he was arrested during the summer of 1963. The report of Milton Kaack of the 31st had covered everything else.

Mr. STERN. Just to be clear, you were not waiting for this shift of administrative responsibility before you did anything?

Mr. HOSTY. No; I mean if there was anything else to do, I would have gone ahead and done it.

Mr. DULLES. Was that action in Washington or New Orleans?

Mr. HOSTY. New Orleans.

Mr. STERN. Had anything else arrived at your Dallas office that you were told about at that point?

Mr. HOSTY. Not at that point, no; nothing had arrived then. I then took the file to the agent in charge.

Mr. DULLES. May I ask one point here?

Mr. HOSTY. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. From the point of view of the administration, is the New Orleans office over the Dallas office, or are they equal?

Mr. HOSTY. They are equal, sir.

Mr. DULLES. They are equal?

Mr. HOSTY. We have 55 offices. They are all equal.

Mr. DULLES. All equal?

Mr. HOSTY. Right. There are no regional offices. I then took the file to the agent in charge, told him that we had a case on Lee Harvey Oswald. While I sat there he immediately called headquarters and advised headquarters here in Washington, D.C., that Lee Harvey Oswald was under arrest down at Dallas and had been observed shooting a police officer. They had eyewitnesses to his killing of Officer Tippit.

Mr. STERN. How do you know that?

Mr. HOSTY. This had been given to us by one of our agents from the call from the Dallas Police Department who had given the information. I don't know who it was. I did not receive the call.

I sat there and assisted the agent in charge while he talked to the Bureau headquarters here. I knew the file. Of course he would need some information. I would leaf through the file and get it for him so that he could relay the pertinent information.

Then sometime after that, the agent in charge instructed me to proceed to the Dallas Police Department and to sit in on the interview of Lee Oswald, which was apparently in progress at this time. Just prior to my leaving, I was told that a communication had just come in that day from the Washington field office advising that Lee Oswald had been in contact with the Soviet Embassy in Washington, D.C.

Mr. STERN. Were you told anything more about that?

Mr. HOSTY. No; I mean this is the point I was given this information. I then went and got a car and drove to the Dallas Police Department, pulled my car into the basement garage of the Dallas Police Department, parked my car.

Mr. STERN. What were conditions like?

Mr. HOSTY. Very chaotic. The press was swarming all over the police station. There were television cameras being brought into the building. Many people were running, coming and going. The place was a beehive of activity.

I parked the car, got out, and started in the door of the basement, at which time I observed a Dallas police car, an unmarked car, drive in, in which there were four detectives. The man sitting on the right-hand side of the front seat next to the driver was a man I recognized as Lieutenant Revill. He signaled me that he wanted to talk to me, at which time he jumped out of the car at the head of the ramp and came over towards me. The rest of the detectives in the car continued down the ramp to be parked.

We then proceeded in, Lieutenant Revill and I proceeded into the police department and started up the stairs. Lieutenant Revill advised me that--I might add he was in a very excited state--he advised me that he had a hot lead, that he had just determined that the only employee from the Texas School Book Depository who could not be accounted for was a man named Lee.

Now this conversation took place at approximately 3 p.m., about an hour after Lee Harvey Oswald had been arrested by the Dallas Police Department. I told Lieutenant Revill that Lee Harvey Oswald had been arrested about an hour ago, that he was an employee of the Texas School Book Depository, and that he was the man who had defected to Russia and had returned to the United States in 1962.

Now either Lieutenant Revill--I don't recall if he made a statement doubting that Oswald was the one who assassinated the President, or whether it was just a look of doubt on his face, but there was doubt came into Lieutenant Revill's--at this time I stated to him that Lee Oswald was the main suspect in this case.

Now this conversation took place running up the stairs from the basement to the third floor. At this time the level of noise was very high. As I said, there were many press representatives, TV representatives, curious bystanders, police officers, everybody running all over the place.

It was not too much unlike Grand Central Station at rush hour, maybe like the Yankee Stadium during the world series games, quite noisy. We got to the head of the stairs and I left Lieutenant Revill and went into Captain Fritz' office.

Mr. STERN. Was anyone else with you and Lieutenant Revill as you came up the stairs, as you recall?

Mr. HOSTY. As I say, the place was swarming with people. Just the two of us were going up the stairs together. My conversation was with Lieutenant Revill only.

Mr. STERN. I now show you a document marked for identification Commission 831, a letter dated April 27, 1964, from Director Hoover to Mr. Rankin, the General Counsel of this Commission, having attached a one-page copy of a newspaper article and an affidavit. Do you recognize this letter?

Mr. HOSTY. Yes, sir; I do.

Mr. STERN. Where have you seen it?

Mr. HOSTY. I have seen the file copy of this letter in the FBI files.

Mr. STERN. Do you recognize the newspaper article which is the first attachment to this letter?

Mr. HOSTY. Yes, sir. It appeared in the Dallas Morning News on April 24, 1964, I believe.

Mr. STERN. And the attachment after this is?

Mr. HOSTY. My affidavit.

Mr. STERN. Your affidavit of five pages?

Mr. HOSTY. Of five pages, bearing my signature.

Mr. STERN. Now tell us what the reason for your making this affidavit was.

Mr. HOSTY. It was to refute the story that appeared in the Dallas Morning News on April 24, 1964, to set the record straight as to what actually did take place in my conversation with Lieutenant Revill.

Mr. STERN. What did that story state?

Mr. HOSTY. It stated in substance, alleged that I was aware that Lee Harvey Oswald was capable of assassinating the President of the United States, but did not dream he would do it.

Mr. STERN. Did you say that?

Mr. HOSTY. No, sir. I want to state for the record at this time that I unequivocally deny ever having made the statement to Lieutenant Revill or to anyone else that, "We knew Lee Harvey Oswald was capable of assassinating the President of the United States, we didn't dream he would do it."

I also want to state at this time that I made no statement to Lieutenant Revill or to any other individual at any time that I or anyone else in the FBI knew that Lee Harvey Oswald was capable of assassinating the President of the United States or possessed any potential for violence.

Prior to the assassination of the President of the United States, I had no information indicating violence on the part of Lee Harvey Oswald. I wish the record to so read.

Mr. STERN. The newspaper story also mentioned another officer of the Dallas police force, V. J. "Jackie" Brian.

Mr. HOSTY. I know him as Jackie Brian.

Mr. STERN. Do you know this officer?

Mr. HOSTY. I know him to see him. I don't know him too well.

Mr. STERN. Do you recall whether or not he was present when you had your conversation with Lieutenant Revill?

Mr. HOSTY. I don't recall him being present. I was addressing my remarks to Lieutenant Revill.

Mr. STERN. Have you heard that there was a rumor to the effect of this story at any time before this newspaper article appeared?

Mr. HOSTY. About 2 weeks prior I heard a rumor, but I didn't know exactly what the story was all about. I did hear a rumor.

Mr. STERN. What was the tone and tenor of the rumor?

Mr. HOSTY. That I had made some statement concerning Oswald's assassinating the President. I wasn't clear. I was never given the exact wording. It involved my conversation with Lieutenant Revill.

Mr. STERN. Have you talked to Lieutenant Revill since this news story appeared?

Mr. HOSTY. No, sir; not since the news story appeared.

Mr. STERN. To Chief Curry?

Mr. HOSTY. No, sir.

Mr. STERN. To any supervising official of the Dallas police force?

Mr. HOSTY. No, sir.

Mr. STERN. To any newspaper reporter for any Dallas newspaper or otherwise?

Mr. HOSTY. They had contacted me for comment, and I have had no comment other than the first person who called me, I denied the story. Since then I have had no comment on instructions from headquarters.

Mr. STERN. Have you reviewed your affidavit in preparation for your testimony here today?

Mr. HOSTY. Yes, sir.

Mr. STERN. Is there anything you would like to add to it other than what you have already said?

Mr. HOSTY. No, sir. I think it speaks for itself.

Mr. STERN. Any change you would like to make in it?

Mr. HOSTY. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

The CHAIRMAN. Will you put this on the record, please?

Mr. Rankin, is there anything in the record of the Commission showing that Lieutenant Revill made a report to his superior officers concerning this statement that is alleged to have been made by Agent Hosty in this newspaper article?

Mr. RANKIN. The only thing that we have is this affidavit which you will note is Commission Exhibit 709.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. And it bears the date November 22, 1963, at the top, and is sworn to as of the 7th day of April 1964. That is what Chief Curry testified he received from Lieutenant Revill.

The CHAIRMAN. Has Lieutenant Revill been a witness before the Commission or has he made a statement, a deposition of any kind?

Mr. RANKIN. He has not been a witness before the Commission.

Mr. REDLICH. He was talked to in Dallas.

Mr. RANKIN. He was a deposition witness.

The CHAIRMAN. When was that?

Mr. RANKIN. I will have to check that.

The CHAIRMAN. Was it before or after this affidavit?

Mr. RANKIN. I will have to check that, Mr. Chief Justice, to be sure.

The CHAIRMAN. Did he in that deposition state that Agent Hosty had made such a statement to him?

Mr. RANKIN. I haven't examined the deposition. I don't know. We have the deposition now, but I have not examined it.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you know, Professor Redlich?

Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Chief Justice, I asked that question, and the information I have is that he was not questioned about this particular allegation. He was questioned on other matters.

Representative FORD. Did he volunteer that information?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes. Is it in the deposition at all?

Mr. REDLICH. To the best of my knowledge, it is not, Mr. Chief Justice.

Mr. McCLOY. Don't we have the deposition here? Can't we get it?

Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chief Justice, I would like to be sure to check that before we have that on the record. I will report by morning, if that is all right, and be sure of it.

The CHAIRMAN. What was the date of this newspaper article? It isn't dated here.

Mr. STERN. The cover letter, Mr. Chief Justice, states that it appeared on April 24, 1964.

The CHAIRMAN. Do I understand that Chief Curry said that no statement of that kind had been made by Lieutenant Revill at or about the time the statement was supposed to have been made by Agent Hosty?

Mr. RANKIN. I don't think his testimony was in that form, Mr. Chief Justice. It was in the form that this was given to him and there wasn't any indication that it was given as of the date of November 22 in his testimony.

The CHAIRMAN. I should like to see Lieutenant Revill's deposition.

Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Redlich has gone out for it.

The CHAIRMAN. We won't delay that now. We will proceed. Go right ahead, Mr. Stern.

Mr. STERN. What happened next?

Mr. HOSTY. As I said, I left Lieutenant Revill. I entered the office of Capt. Will Fritz. After a short delay, Agent James W. Bookhout and myself entered the inner office of Capt. Will Fritz of the homicide section, Dallas Police Department, where Lee Harvey Oswald was being questioned.

Mr. STERN. I show you a two-page document marked Commission No. 832 for identification. Can you identify that?

Mr. HOSTY. Yes, sir. This is an interview form which I made for my interview with Lee Harvey Oswald on the 22d of November 1963. It was dictated as the form will indicate, on the 23d of November 1963.

Mr. STERN. Let me ask you there, Mr. Hosty, about your practice in reducing to formal form your notes of interviews. This happened the next day?

Mr. HOSTY. Right.

Mr. STERN. Is that faster than usual because of the circumstances?

Mr. HOSTY. Because of the circumstances. We have to reduce them to writing within 5 days.

Mr. STERN. In 5 days?

Mr. HOSTY. Five working days.

Mr. STERN. Did you retain the notes of this?

Mr. HOSTY. No. After the interview is reduced to writing, I get it back and proofread it. My notes are then destroyed because this is the record.

Mr. STERN. And in this particular instance did you destroy your notes of this?

Mr. HOSTY. Yes, sir.

Mr. STERN. Now you say that you are required to reduce your notes of an interview to writing within 5 working days.

Mr. HOSTY. Right.

Mr. STERN. Did that happen with respect to the interviews you conducted on October 29, November 1, and November 5?

Mr. HOSTY. To make this a little clearer, this would be an interview of a subject, not of a witness, unless this witness has something that was quite pertinent to the investigation.

Routine-type matters do not have to be put on these interview forms, but pertinent interviews would be. Now everything in this case after the assassination was declared to be pertinent. All interviews, regardless of how insignificant, were to be put on these forms.

Mr. STERN. But the interviews you conducted at the beginning of November and the end of October were not within this rule?

Mr. HOSTY. No; because they were not an interview of the subject or anything that contained anything of major importance.

Mr. STERN. Do you yourself destroy the notes?

Mr. HOSTY. Yes.

Mr. STERN. Do you recall specifically destroying the notes of your interview?

Mr. HOSTY. Yes, sir; in the wastebasket.

Mr. STERN. Your interview of Oswald, on November 22, you put the notes in the wastebasket?

Mr. HOSTY. Right.

Mr. STERN. Do you recall specifically what you did with the notes of your interviews of October 29, November 1, and November 5?

Mr. HOSTY. After I reduced them to writing, such as I did here, and I got the form back, I proofread it, then I threw them away.

Mr. STERN. And you testified that the notes of your end of October--early November interviews were transcribed after November 22, is that correct?

Mr. HOSTY. Right.

Mr. STERN. Were the notes destroyed after you transcribed those interviews, also after November 22?

Mr. HOSTY. Yes.

Mr. STERN. Did you give any consideration to retaining the notes in view of the turn that the case had taken?

Mr. HOSTY. No.

Mr. STERN. The intervening assassination?

Mr. HOSTY. No; because this is the record and the notes would not be as good as this record, because the notes are not written out fully as this is. It would just be abbreviations and things of that type.

Mr. STERN. And you received no instructions about retaining notes?

Mr. HOSTY. No; we had no instructions. We were following the same rule we had always followed.

Mr. STERN. Why don't you tell us now, turning to your memorandum of the November 22 interview of Lee Harvey Oswald, what transpired from the time you first entered Captain Fritz' office.

Mr. HOSTY. As this interview form will show, the interview commenced at 3:15 p.m. I am certain of that time because I checked my wristwatch, and Agent Bookhout checked my wristwatch. We both agreed on the time, 3:15. We came in and identified ourselves as agents of the FBI. I told Oswald my name and he reacted violently.

Mr. STERN. How do you mean?

Mr. HOSTY. To both Agent Bookhout and myself. He adopted an extremely hostile attitude towards the FBI.

Mr. STERN. Was it the FBI or the name Hosty?

Mr. HOSTY. Both. He reacted to the fact that we were FBI, and he made the remark to me, "Oh, so you are Hosty. I've heard about you."

He then started to cuss at us, and so forth, and I tried to talk to him to calm him down. The more I talked to him the worse he got, so I just stopped talking to him, just sat back in the corner and pretty soon he stopped his ranting and raving.

Mr. STERN. What was he saying? Please be specific.

Mr. HOSTY. Well, he said, "I am going to fix you FBI," and he made some derogatory remarks about the Director and about FBI agents in general. I don't specifically recall the exact wording he used.

Representative FORD. Had this been the attitude that existed prior to you and Bookhout coming into the----

Mr. HOSTY. Apparently not; apparently not. I couldn't say because I wasn't in the room. We walked into the room. I immediately identified myself, told him I was with the FBI, and was a law-enforcement officer, and anything he said to me could be used against him. He did not have to talk to us.

Senator COOPER. Can you describe the tone of his voice and his manner?

Mr. HOSTY. I beg your pardon, sir?

Senator COOPER. Can you describe the tone of his voice?

Mr. HOSTY. He was highly excited. He was very surly, I think would be about the best way to describe him, very surly; and he was curt in his answers to us, snarled at us. That would be his general attitude.

Representative FORD. Did he use profanity?

Mr. HOSTY. Yes, sir. I can't recall any specific statements he made, however.

Mr. McCLOY. Did he complain that you had been abusing or harassing his wife in anyway?

Mr. HOSTY. He made the statement, "If you want to talk to me don't bother my wife. Come and see me." He didn't say that I had abused his wife in any manner, and I hadn't. He did criticize me for talking to her. He said, "Come talk to me if you want to talk to me."

Representative FORD. Is that why he knew your name, because of your conversations with her?

Mr. HOSTY. Yes; apparently.

Mr. STERN. Had you ever seen Oswald before?

Mr. HOSTY. Not until that time. That was the first time I had seen him.

Senator COOPER. Can you remember what he said about the FBI specifically?

Mr. HOSTY. He called us gestapo, secret police, we were harassing people. It was along that line. I don't recall the exact wording.

Mr. STERN. Was he handcuffed at this time?

Mr. HOSTY. He was handcuffed behind him. After he calmed down he asked Captain Fritz if they could remove the handcuffs. Captain Fritz ordered one of his detectives to remove them from the rear, and they handcuffed him in front.

Mr. STERN. This happened right after you came into the room?

Mr. HOSTY. Shortly after we came in the room.

Mr. STERN. Before or after his outburst?

Mr. HOSTY. After his outburst; after he had calmed down.

Mr. STERN. Please continue.

Mr. HOSTY. Captain Fritz actually conducted the interview. Agent Bookhout and myself sat back in the corner and observed. Captain Fritz asked Oswald if he had ever owned the rifle. He denied he had ever owned a rifle. He said that he had seen the superintendent of the School Book Depository with a rifle in his office a couple of days before the assassination, but that he had never had a rifle in the building. He then told Captain Fritz that he had been to the Soviet Union and resided there for 3 years, and he had many friends in the Soviet Union. Captain Fritz then showed him a piece of paper which had "Fair Play for Cuba" on it, and Oswald admitted to Captain Fritz that he was secretary for the Fair Play for Cuba Committee in New Orleans a few months ago.

He told Captain Fritz that the Fair Play for Cuba Committee had its headquarters in New York City. Captain Fritz then showed Oswald a marksman's medal from the Marine Corps, and Oswald admitted that this was his medal, that he had received a sharpshooter's medal while in the Marine Corps.

Mr. McCLOY. Was it a sharpshooter's or a marksman's? There are two different types, you know.

Mr. HOSTY. I believe it was a sharpshooter, sir. He then told Captain Fritz that he had been living at 1026 North Beckley, that is in Dallas, Tex., at 1026 North Beckley under the name O. H. Lee and not under his true name.

Oswald admitted that he was present in the Texas School Book Depository Building on the 22d of November 1963, where he had been employed since the 15th of October. Oswald told Captain Fritz that he was a laborer in this building and had access to the entire building. It had offices on the first and second floors with storage on third, fourth, fifth and sixth floors.

Oswald told Captain Fritz that he went to lunch at approximately noon on the 22d of November, ate his lunch in the lunchroom, and had gone and gotten a Coca Cola from the Coca Cola machine to have with his lunch. He claimed that he was in the lunchroom at the time President Kennedy passed the building.

He was asked why he left the School Book Depository that day, and he stated that in all the confusion he was certain that there would be no more work for the rest of the day, that everybody was too upset, there was too much confusion, so he just decided that there would be no work for the rest of the day and so he went home. He got on a bus and went home. He went to his residence on North Beckley, changed his clothes, and then went to a movie.

Captain Fritz asked him if he always carried a pistol when he went to the movie, and he said he carried it because he felt like it. He admitted that he did have a pistol on him at the time of his arrest, in this theatre, in the Oak Cliff area of Dallas. He further admitted that he had resisted arrest and had received a bump and a cut as a result of his resisting of arrest. He then denied that he had killed Officer Tippit or President Kennedy.

Mr. STERN. The memorandum says, "Oswald frantically denied shooting"----

Mr. HOSTY. It should be emphatically, I believe, rather than frantically. I think this probably should be "emphatically denied."

Mr. STERN. Is this your memorandum?

Mr. HOSTY. Yes, sir.

Mr. STERN. It is signed or initialed both by you and by Mr. Bookhout.

Mr. HOSTY. Right. The procedure is that when there are two agents involved, they both must approve it, so there can be no discrepancies.

Mr. STERN. But you dictated it.

Mr. HOSTY. I dictated it and he read it and we both approved it.

Mr. STERN. Have you been over it recently in preparation for your testimony?

Mr. HOSTY. Yes, sir.

Mr. STERN. Is it accurate? Is there anything you would like to add to it?

Mr. HOSTY. I think it is correct as it stands.

Mr. McCLOY. I didn't hear you repeating your testimony that he denied ever having been in Mexico.

Mr. HOSTY. Oh, yes; he was being questioned about his activities outside of the United States, where he had been outside of the United States. He told Captain Fritz that he had only been to Mexico to visit at Tijuana on the border, and then he did admit having been in Russia.

Mr. McCLOY. He only admitted to having been at Tijuana in Mexico?

Mr. HOSTY. Right.

Mr. McCLOY. Not to Mexico City.

Mr. HOSTY. Not to Mexico City; that is right.

Representative FORD. There was no recording made of this interrogation?

Mr. HOSTY. No, sir; it was notes I took. Agent Bookhout and I took notes, and we dictated from the notes the next day.

Mr. STERN. Did you ask him any questions?

Mr. HOSTY. No; like I say, he was acting in such a hostile condition towards us that we did not. This was Captain Fritz' interview anyway. We were just sitting in as observers.

Mr. STERN. Did you tell Captain Fritz at this time any of the information you had about Oswald, about his trip to Mexico, for example?