Part 70

Mr. HOSTY. I am from the Dallas division.

Mr. DULLES. From the Dallas division?

Mr. HOSTY. Yes, sir.

The man right before me was from the New Orleans division. I am from the Dallas division.

Mr. DULLES. You are from the Dallas division?

Mr. HOSTY. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. May I pursue this just a minute. These identification numbers at the top in the upper left--as I understand it now, you are saying related to Mrs. Paine's file?

Mr. HOSTY. Right.

Representative FORD. Now, would this, even though it was from Mrs. Paine's file, have been in either Marina or Lee Harvey Oswald's file or both?

Mr. HOSTY. This did appear in the report on Lee Harvey Oswald. That was the report of December 2, I believe was the date. That was the first report. You probably have that overall report, don't you?

(Discussion off the record.)

Representative FORD. Did this material which was in Mrs. Paine's file----

Mr. HOSTY. Right.

Representative FORD. Appear in either Marina or Lee Harvey Oswald's file prior to the assassination?

Mr. HOSTY. Let me see. Part of it would have, this paragraph on page 11, this November 1, Mrs. Ruth Paine was interviewed. This appeared in the communication I sent out to the New Orleans office advising them where he was employed.

Mr. DULLES. When was that sent?

Mr. HOSTY. The 4th of November, sir. The rest of it was in note form. I hadn't reduced it to writing yet.

Representative FORD. I am still not clear what part was in Mrs. Paine's file and what part was in Marina's file and what part was in Lee Harvey Oswald's file prior to November 22.

Mr. HOSTY. Prior to November 22 just--there was no file for Mrs. Paine prior to November 22.

Representative FORD. So this didn't appear in her file?

Mr. HOSTY. No.

Representative FORD. Until subsequent to----

Mr. HOSTY. Right.

Representative FORD. The assassination?

Mr. HOSTY. There was no file for Mrs. Paine until after the assassination.

Representative FORD. Then what part appeared in Marina's file or Lee Harvey's file prior to November 22?

Mr. HOSTY. Just the second paragraph of this page 11 or the second page.

Mr. DULLES. Would this have constituted a reopening of the Lee Harvey Oswald file, because I think we had testimony this morning that the file had been closed.

Mr. HOSTY. This would constitute having the New Orleans office change origin to Dallas. At this time the file on Lee Oswald was open. We were open as an auxiliary office.

Mr. DULLES. In----

Mr. HOSTY. In Dallas.

Mr. DULLES. In Dallas?

Mr. HOSTY. Right, and this communication to New Orleans was a request that we be made origin.

Mr. STERN. I wonder if I might summarize this?

Mr. DULLES. It is not clear to me.

Mr. HOSTY. You missed a lot of this.

Mr. STERN. The file was closed, sir, until March of 1963 when Mr. Hosty decided it should be reopened on the basis of two items of information, one of them the fact that Lee Harvey Oswald was listed as a subscriber to the Worker newspaper.

Mr. DULLES. This is the Dallas file you are now talking of?

Mr. STERN. Dallas. The case was closed in the Dallas office. He reopened it in the Dallas office. He subsequently found that Oswald had moved, apparently permanently, to New Orleans, and had the file and the case administratively shifted as far as his responsibility, as far as his primary responsibility, to the New Orleans office.

Mr. DULLES. Does that mean the papers were also shifted?

Mr. HOSTY. No, sir; just those papers which they lacked. I reviewed our file. I could tell what communications they had and which communications they didn't. I then gave them all communications which I was not certain that they had.

Mr. DULLES. But the other communications remained in the Dallas file?

Mr. HOSTY. Right.

Mr. DULLES. But the Dallas file, then, was not, in a sense, reactivated since the action had been transferred to New Orleans, is that correct?

Mr. HOSTY. To New Orleans; right. Then in October the case was shifted back to Dallas again.

Mr. DULLES. At what time?

Mr. HOSTY. Well, actually, November 4 would be our request to have the case transferred back to Dallas office of origin.

Mr. STERN. I think you ought to make clear, Mr. Hosty, to Mr. Dulles, that early in October you started doing something for the New Orleans office at their request.

Mr. HOSTY. Yes.

Mr. STERN. New Orleans found that they couldn't locate Lee Harvey Oswald in New Orleans.

Mr. DULLES. He had left in the meantime?

Mr. HOSTY. Right.

Mr. STERN. Yes; from their leads he seemed to have gone back into the Dallas area, and they asked the Dallas office to see if they could locate him. Mr. Hosty was doing this work at the end of October and the beginning of November when he ran these interviews. Just to complete that, Mr. Hosty, you expected, did you not, that the case would be reassigned?

Mr. HOSTY. Oh, yes.

Mr. STERN. To the Dallas office?

Mr. HOSTY. Oh, yes. This was tantamount to requesting it be shifted to us, yes, when I sent this communication.

Mr. STERN. And you were beginning to think in terms of the case being your problem again?

Mr. HOSTY. Right.

Mr. STERN. Even though formally at the time you were only----

Mr. HOSTY. Auxiliary office.

Mr. STERN. Operating on the request of the New Orleans office to try to locate him, is that correct?

Mr. HOSTY. That is correct.

Mr. McCLOY. This has all been previously testified to?

Mr. DULLES. I am sorry to have missed that.

Mr. HOSTY. That is all right, Mr. Dulles, that is entirely all right.

Mr. DULLES. Just one question. Are cases of this kind administratively transferred by agreement between two offices, or does that have to go up to Washington?

Mr. HOSTY. Washington always gets a copy of these communications. They know what we are doing. Actually the original is sent to Washington, and a carbon is sent to the other field office.

Mr. DULLES. But you can transfer it directly from one office to another?

Mr. HOSTY. Right.

Mr. DULLES. And just notify Washington as to the possibility of its being transferred?

Mr. HOSTY. Right; because he is now residing and employed in our division. There is no more needs to be done.

Mr. DULLES. I am clear. Thank you very much.

Mr. STERN. I think perhaps we can just complete the line of inquiry started by Congressman Ford. Do your records or notes show when you first reduced to writing your notes on the interviews that began on October 29 and the last one of which occurred on November 5?

Mr. HOSTY. I can only say that it would have been sometime between the 22d of November and the 2d of December, because it went out in a report on the 2d of December.

Mr. STERN. Until then they were in the form of----

Mr. HOSTY. Notes.

Mr. STERN. Raw notes?

Mr. HOSTY. Right.

Mr. STERN. Do you take shorthand or any other form of speedwriting?

Mr. HOSTY. No.

Mr. STERN. Have you preserved the notes?

Mr. HOSTY. I don't have them with me, no; because once it is reduced to writing then we destroy the notes. That is the procedure.

Mr. STERN. You say you don't have them with you. Did you preserve these notes?

Mr. HOSTY. No; they were thrown away.

Mr. STERN. And this is the only record now that you have----

Mr. HOSTY. Right.

Mr. STERN. Of these activities?

Mr. McCLOY. Do you have any record in your office as to when that was put into type? Does your secretary have it?

Mr. HOSTY. They might, sir. I think they might. I couldn't say for sure.

Mr. McCLOY. I think you might look that up and see if you have any record, and give it to us.

Mr. HOSTY. All right, sir.

Mr. STERN. But you are clear that it occurred after the assassination?

Mr. HOSTY. Oh, yes, sir; positive.

Mr. STERN. Is that usual, that you would----

Mr. HOSTY. Something of this nature, yes, sir; no reason to reduce it to writing right away.

Mr. STERN. It is true, isn't it, that some of this information had already been----

Mr. HOSTY. Transmitted in letter form to New Orleans; right.

Mr. DULLES. Prior to the assassination?

Mr. HOSTY. Prior to the assassination; yes, sir.

Representative FORD. That part on the second page?

Mr. HOSTY. Right; this second paragraph starting, "On November 1, 1963, Mrs. Ruth Paine"----

Representative FORD. What did you do, dictate that to a stenographer?

Mr. HOSTY. Right.

Representative FORD. And she typed it and it was sent officially?

Mr. HOSTY. On the 4th of November, right, airmail letter to New Orleans.

Mr. STERN. Would that be sent to your headquarters in Washington?

Mr. HOSTY. Also. Excuse me, the original goes to headquarters in Washington, a copy goes to New Orleans. It is addressed to the headquarters.

Mr. STERN. But the only information sent was the information in that paragraph beginning "On November 1, 1963."

Mr. McCLOY. But you had your original notes with you?

Mr. HOSTY. Right.

Mr. McCLOY. And still intact?

Mr. HOSTY. Right.

Mr. McCLOY. At the time you put this----

Mr. HOSTY. Because I knew I was going to get this into a report. The next report was written, and I would put it in a report form and destroy the notes.

Mr. DULLES. Do we have a copy of that letter of November 4?

Mr. HOSTY. I don't know.

Mr. DULLES. That you sent to headquarters and to New Orleans?

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. STERN. You tell us you have reviewed these two pages?

Mr. HOSTY. Yes.

Mr. STERN. Is there anything you would like to add?

Mr. HOSTY. No, sir.

Mr. STERN. Anything you would like to correct?

Mr. HOSTY. No, sir.

Mr. STERN. This accurately states the interviews that you covered. May this be admitted in the record?

The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted, No. 830.

(The document marked Commission Exhibit No. 830 for identification was received in evidence.)

Representative FORD. May I ask one question here?

Mr. HOSTY. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. Why in these notes that are now Commission Exhibit 830 didn't you mention the fact that Mrs. Paine had said that Oswald was a Trotskyite Marxist?

Mr. HOSTY. No; that is set forth down here, sir.

Representative FORD. Yes; right.

Mr. HOSTY. In this second to the last paragraph, the last line.

Mr. McCLOY. May I ask you this, Mr. Hosty. In your contacts with Mrs. Paine, did you get the impression that she was cooperative throughout?

Mr. HOSTY. Yes, sir; yes, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. Nothing that she said seemed to be inconsistent with any facts that you knew?

Mr. HOSTY. No.

Senator COOPER. May I ask a question? I believe you said that all the papers that you had respecting Lee Harvey Oswald were supplied to the office at New Orleans.

Mr. HOSTY. At the time they were made origin; yes, sir. In the summer of 1963, that is correct, all the files.

Senator COOPER. At the time that he was engaged in----

Mr. HOSTY. In the Fair Play for Cuba work; yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. What do you call it--Fair Play for Cuba?

Mr. HOSTY. Fair Play for Cuba; yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. Now Mr. Fain testified that he had interviewed Oswald I think in 19----

Mr. HOSTY. 1962.

Senator COOPER. 1962.

Mr. HOSTY. That is correct.

Senator COOPER. The year before. Mr. Quigley testified that Oswald told him that he had married a Russian girl whose maiden name was Prossa, and also in that file there was another statement in which Oswald had said that he had been married, that he had married a girl in Fort Worth. Now were all those papers available to the office in New Orleans?

Mr. HOSTY. Yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. I suppose this would be a question of Mr. Quigley, really, but if all those factors were known, it would appear that the facts that Mr. Fain had secured, which showed the defection and his marriage in Russia, and the fact that he had told someone else he was married in Texas, that there would have been some further investigation of it in New Orleans.

Mr. HOSTY. Well, this would be something that Mr. Quigley would have to answer.

Mr. McCLOY. You had a record of inconsistent statements in there.

Mr. HOSTY. Yes, sir.

Mr. STERN. Continuing that line, Mr. Hosty, do you recognize Commission Exhibit 826, I now hand you?

Mr. HOSTY. Yes.

Mr. STERN. That is the report of----

Mr. HOSTY. Milton R. Kaack.

Mr. STERN. And it is dated?

Mr. HOSTY. October 31, 1963. I received it on November 1.

Mr. DULLES. Do you recall whether that inconsistent statement, that inconsistency was picked up in New Orleans at this time, in the New Orleans office?

Mr. HOSTY. I don't; no, sir. You mean about----

Mr. DULLES. About marriage.

Mr. HOSTY. About marriage? I picked it up when I saw it.

Mr. DULLES. At what time was that?

Mr. HOSTY. November 1 when we got the report.

Mr. STERN. When you reviewed Mr. Kaack's report?

Mr. HOSTY. Right.

Mr. STERN. You were aware when you read that report that he had----

Mr. HOSTY. Lied; or was inconsistent.

Mr. STERN. He had said in New Orleans that he had been married in Fort Worth, married a girl named Prossa, that he had originally told the New Orleans police that he had been born in Cuba.

Mr. HOSTY. Yes.

Mr. STERN. You were aware of all these inconsistencies?

Mr. HOSTY. Right.

Mr. STERN. What did these suggest to you in view of what you knew about Oswald?

Mr. HOSTY. I knew that he was not telling the truth in his interview in New Orleans, because I had previously checked the background of his wife and himself, and I knew that she was born in Russia and her name was not Prossa. They were not married in Fort Worth, so I knew he was not telling the truth.

Mr. STERN. You knew that on November 1.

Mr. HOSTY. Right.

Mr. STERN. And at what time did you know of Oswald's trip to Mexico City and his apparent appearance there at the Russian Embassy?

Mr. HOSTY. The 25th of October.

Mr. STERN. Had you received any----

Mr. McCLOY. Let's get these years right.

Mr. HOSTY. The 25th of October 1963.

Mr. STERN. Had you received any information about any other contacts with Russian officials by Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. HOSTY. Not at that time.

Mr. STERN. What other information did you have at anytime about that?

Mr. HOSTY. On November 22, after the assassination of President Kennedy, I was advised that our Washington field office of the FBI had determined that he, Lee Oswald, had been in contact with the Soviet Embassy in Washington, D.C. I learned that after the assassination.

Mr. STERN. After the assassination?

Mr. HOSTY. Right, sir.

Mr. STERN. Putting that aside for the moment, what was your evaluation of Lee Harvey Oswald based on the work that you had done and the reports that you had made, the information you gathered early in November?

Mr. HOSTY. Well, there were many questions to be resolved. I was quite interested in determining the nature of his contact with the Soviet Embassy in Mexico City. I had not resolved that on the 22d of November. We were still waiting to resolve that. Prior to that, I mean that would be the only thing----

Mr. STERN. What had you planned to do after November 5 about this case?

Mr. HOSTY. Well, as I had previously stated, I have between 25 and 40 cases assigned to me at any one time. I had other matters to take care of. I had now established that Lee Oswald was not employed in a sensitive industry. I can now afford to wait until New Orleans forwarded the necessary papers to me to show me I now had all the information. It was then my plan to interview Marina Oswald in detail concerning both herself and her husband's background.

Mr. STERN. Had you planned any steps beyond that point?

Mr. HOSTY. No. I would have to wait until I had talked to Marina to see what I could determine, and from there I could make my plans.

Mr. STERN. Did you take any action on this case between November 5 and November 22?

Mr. HOSTY. No, sir.

Mr. STERN. I think we can then turn to the events of November 22, and have you tell us what transpired that day, beginning with the morning.

Mr. HOSTY. All right. The first order of business from 8:15 to 9 o'clock the special agent in charge held the regular biweekly conference. Now we held a conference in our office every other Friday morning. It so happened that this was the Friday morning which we would hold this conference, at which time the agent in charge would bring various items to our attention. Among the items he brought to our attention was the fact that President Kennedy would be in Dallas on that date.

Mr. DULLES. Who was the special agent in charge?

Mr. HOSTY. Gordon Shanklin. Gordon L. Shanklin.

Representative FORD. How many others besides yourself were under his jurisdiction?

Mr. HOSTY. About 75 agents.

Representative FORD. Seventy-five?

Mr. HOSTY. Yes. Now only the ones at headquarters city in Dallas were present. That would be about 40 of the agents were present at this conference.

Mr. Shanklin advised us, among other things, that in view of the President's visit to Dallas, that if anyone had any indication of any possibility of any acts of violence or any demonstrations against the President, or Vice President, to immediately notify the Secret Service and confirm it in writing. He had made the same statement about a week prior at another special conference which we had held. I don't recall the exact date. It was about a week prior.

Mr. STERN. Did you know that there was going to be a motorcade on November 22?

Mr. HOSTY. I found out about 9 p.m. the night before that there was to be a motorcade in downtown Dallas. I read it in the newspaper. That was the first time I knew of it.

Mr. STERN. Did you know that the motorcade would pass the School Book Depository Building?

Mr. HOSTY. No, sir.

Mr. STERN. Did you know the route of the motorcade?

Mr. HOSTY. No, sir.

Mr. DULLES. Had there been any contact between you or the Dallas office with the Secret Service on this point?

Mr. HOSTY. On the motorcade route, sir?

Mr. DULLES. Yes.

Mr. HOSTY. No.

Mr. DULLES. Had not been?

Mr. HOSTY. No.

Mr. STERN. The newspaper stories did not as far as you can recall tell what the motorcade route would be?

Mr. HOSTY. Yes; they did. There was a description of the motorcade route, but as I say, I didn't bother to read it in detail. I noticed that it was coming up Main Street. That was the only thing I was interested in, where maybe I could watch it if I had a chance.

Mr. STERN. So that the fact that Lee Harvey Oswald was working in the Texas School Book Depository meant nothing----

Mr. HOSTY. No.

Mr. STERN. In connection with the motorcade route?

Mr. HOSTY. No.

Mr. STERN. Did you think of him at all in connection with the President's trip?

Mr. HOSTY. No, sir.

Representative FORD. Did you have any others among the cases that were assigned to you that came to your attention in reference to the President's visit?

Mr. HOSTY. I did turn over one item of information to the Secret Service on the 21st; yes, sir. I did bring some matters to their attention.

There were some scurrilous pamphlets circulated around Dallas on the 21st of November. You may have seen them. It was a poster of President Kennedy with a front and a profile view saying, "Wanted for Treason." I took those pamphlets over to the Secret Service office the morning of the 21st. Then I assisted another agent in our division in giving the Secret Service some information on an individual in Denton, Tex., who had made some remarks about the President, and another member of my squad had also given some information to the Secret Service the evening of the 21st about the possibility of a demonstration at the Trade Mart against President Kennedy, some picketing.

Representative FORD. Do you recall to whom you gave this information?

Mr. HOSTY. The one piece of information I gave, I gave to an Agent Warner of the Secret Service.

Representative FORD. That was the information about what?

Mr. HOSTY. The pamphlets, the "Wanted for Treason" pamphlets.

Representative FORD. Those are the only documents or contacts you personally had?

Mr. HOSTY. That I personally had, that is correct.

The CHAIRMAN. Was it a pamphlet or a dodger?

Mr. HOSTY. It was, I guess you would call it a dodger.

The CHAIRMAN. Single sheet?

Mr. HOSTY. Single sheet; yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. A single sheet, was it not?

Mr. HOSTY. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. Did you ever ascertain who put that out?

Mr. HOSTY. No, sir; I never did.

The CHAIRMAN. Did you ever investigate it?

Mr. HOSTY. I didn't.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you know whether your office did?

Mr. HOSTY. I am not sure; no, sir.

Mr. STERN. What next occurred on the 22d, Mr. Hosty?

Mr. HOSTY. All right. After the conference that lasted until about 9 a.m., I then left the office and joined an Army Intelligence agent, and an agent of the Alcohol Tax Unit of the Treasury Department. We had a conference concerning a case not related to Lee Oswald. This conference lasted most of the morning until about 11:45. At 11:45 the Army Intelligence agent and myself left, and walked over towards Main Street. The motorcade was scheduled to pass down Main Street near our office at approximately noon. I was now on my lunch hour, so I stood and watched the motorcade go by at the corner of Field and Main Street in Dallas.

After the President passed by, I then went across the street, started eating lunch. While I was eating my lunch, the waitress came up and told me she had just heard a radio report that the President and the Vice President had both been shot. I immediately stopped my lunch.

Mr. STERN. The President and the Vice President?

Mr. HOSTY. That was the earliest report, that the Vice President had been shot too. These were the rumors. I then of course left the lunchroom immediately and headed back for the office, which is only a block away. I got back to the office.

One of the supervisors told me to get a radio car and get out on the street right away and I would get further instructions. I did that. I got in the car and started out. I gave the signal that I was on the air and I was told to proceed towards Parkland Hospital. Just as I got to Parkland Hospital I got a call to return to the office immediately.

Mr. STERN. Do you know why you were sent to Parkland Hospital?

Mr. HOSTY. No. We were just told they wanted four cars to proceed to Parkland Hospital to stand by for further orders.

Mr. STERN. Were you told why you were ordered to return to the office?

Mr. HOSTY. When I got back they told me they wanted me to start reviewing our files to see if I could develop any information, any leads at all on the possible assassin, to help out administratively in the office.

Mr. STERN. Did the case of Oswald come to your mind at that time?

Mr. HOSTY. No, sir.

Mr. STERN. As a possible----

Mr. HOSTY. No, sir; it was approximately 1:30 that we got the report that a police officer had been killed in the Oak Cliff area of Dallas, and that the police were surrounding a movie theatre where the suspect was allegedly located.

Shortly after 2 o'clock, we received information that this man had been captured and taken to the Dallas Police Department. One of our agents called from the Dallas Police Department and identified this man as Lee Harvey Oswald. I immediately recognized the name.

Mr. STERN. What was your reaction?

Mr. HOSTY. Shock, complete surprise.

Mr. STERN. Because?

Mr. HOSTY. I had no reason prior to this time to believe that he was capable or potentially an assassin of the President of the United States.

Mr. STERN. What happened next?

Mr. HOSTY. I immediately got the file on Lee Oswald, and I determined that on the 21st of November this change of origin from New Orleans had arrived. It had not been routed to me as yet. It apparently arrived on the afternoon of the 21st. I got it for the first time after the assassination.

Mr. STERN. That is the administrative----

Mr. HOSTY. Administrative form showing that I was now origin, that we now had all the information on the case.

Mr. STERN. Did they send any other information with that?