Part 69

She further told me that there was a Russian-born and Russian-speaking woman residing with Mrs. Paine. She told me this woman did not speak any English, and that she had just given birth the week before that to a new baby and she had another small child.

This woman further advised me that the wife of this Russian-born woman, who was an American, had visited his wife there on one occasion, but did not reside on West Fifth Street in Irving.

Mr. STERN. You mean husband.

Mr. HOSTY. Husband, yes; I am sorry. I mean the husband of the Russian, that is right.

Mr. STERN. Did you obtain any other information?

Mr. HOSTY. No, not at that time. That is what I determined from Mrs. Roberts at the time.

Mr. STERN. What did you do next?

Mr. HOSTY. On the 31st of October, I did a credit check on Michael and Ruth Paine for the purpose of developing further background.

This credit check showed that Michael Paine was employed at Bell Helicopter as an engineer, showed no employment for Mrs. Paine, just showed her as a housewife, showed they had resided in Irving area for a number of years, and showed a good reputation.

I then checked the criminal records of the Irving Police Department, Dallas County Sheriff's Office. They had no record for either Ruth or Michael Paine. Contacted the Bell Helicopter Co. and the security officer at Bell Helicopter, Mr. Ted Schurman, advised me that Michael Paine was employed by them as a research engineer and he held a security clearance.

I then went to St. Marks School in Dallas. I had known from previous experience this school enjoyed a good reputation and I could approach them safely. I talked to Mr. Edward T. Oviatt, the assistant headmaster at St. Marks School. He told me that Mrs. Paine was a satisfactory employee, loyal to the United States, and he considered her to be a stable individual. He stated that Mrs. Paine was employed as a part-time teacher of the Russian language at that school, and he also advised that in a recent conversation with Mrs. Paine she had advised him that she had a Russian-born woman living with her.

This woman could not speak any English. She had just given birth to a new baby, and she had another small child. The husband of this woman had deserted her and Mrs. Paine felt sorry for her and had taken her in.

Mr. Oviatt went on to explain that Mrs. Paine did this for two reasons. She wanted to improve her Russian-speaking ability by having this person who spoke only Russian in her household. Also, he stated that she was by nature a very kindly individual, Quaker by background, and this was the sort of thing that she would do to help a person in distress.

Mr. STERN. What was the purpose of all these inquiries into the background of Mr. and Mrs. Paine?

Mr. HOSTY. I wanted to make sure before I approached Mrs. Paine that she was not involved in any way with Lee Oswald, in any type of activities which were against the best interests of the United States.

Mr. STERN. How do you mean before you approached Mrs. Paine?

Mr. HOSTY. Well, it was my intention since we could not determine where Lee Oswald was, that he was obviously not at her address, that the best way to find out would be to ask Mrs. Paine.

Mr. STERN. And you were doing all this in connection with the original request?

Mr. HOSTY. Right.

Mr. STERN. From the New Orleans Office?

Mr. HOSTY. Right.

Mr. STERN. And that was?

Mr. HOSTY. To locate Lee Oswald.

Mr. STERN. What did you do next?

Mr. HOSTY. The next day was the 1st of November. I worked in the Fort Worth area in the morning and on my way back from the Fort Worth area at approximately 2:30 p.m., I stopped at the residence of Mrs. Ruth Paine, 2515 West Fifth Street, and identified myself as a special agent of the FBI, and asked if I could talk to her. She was very cordial and friendly, invited me into the house. At this time, she was the only one in the living room. Her small children were taking their naps, and apparently Marina Oswald and her children were, also napping.

Mr. STERN. Excuse me, Mr. Hosty. I show you Commission Exhibit No. 430, which is a floor plan of the Paine home.

Mr. HOSTY. Right.

Mr. STERN. Can you show the Commission from this where you went as you came into the house and where you talked to Mrs. Paine?

Mr. HOSTY. This is the front door, and we talked right here in the living room. I believe the couch was right along here. I believe I sat here and Mrs. Paine sat here, right here in the living room. We were the only two in the living room, to start with.

Mr. STERN. Did you conduct this interview alone?

Mr. HOSTY. Yes, sir; I was the only agent present.

Mr. STERN. Is that usual or unusual?

Mr. HOSTY. It is the usual custom when we are talking to a person who is not a subject or a hostile witness, and Mrs. Paine was not considered a hostile witness.

Mr. STERN. Can you show us from Exhibit 430 approximately where you parked your car that day if you recall?

Mr. HOSTY. I don't recall specifically. I do recall that her station wagon was parked in the driveway. There was another car in front of the house, and it is my recollection that I parked, perhaps, here.

There is another house right next door here which was vacant, and I believe I parked in front of the vacant house right next door.

Mr. STERN. Would you put your initials where you think you parked your car, on that exhibit, please? It was about that close to the front of the house, you believe?

Mr. HOSTY. Yes; it was not directly in front of the house because there was another car. Michael Paine, apparently, had two cars, and he kept one of them over here and he used the other one where he was now living. He left his other car here and there was a station wagon in the driveway.

Representative FORD. Is Mrs. Roberts' residence on----

Mr. HOSTY. Mrs. Roberts' residence is over here, sir.

Representative FORD. On the other side?

Mr. HOSTY. Right. This is a vacant house.

Mr. STERN. The top of that page is north.

Mr. HOSTY. Right. This would be 2519, 2515, and probably 2511 here.

Mr. STERN. 2511, you are indicating the east side of that diagram?

Mr. HOSTY. East, yes. It would go east.

Mr. STERN. 2519 the west side?

Mr. HOSTY. West side, that is correct.

Mr. STERN. North being the top?

Mr. HOSTY. Right.

Mr. STERN. Now, tell us in detail of your interview with Mrs. Paine starting from the time you rang the doorbell.

Mr. HOSTY. All right. As I say, when I entered the house I immediately identified myself. I showed her my credentials, identified myself as a special agent of the FBI, and requested to talk to her.

She invited me into the house.

Mr. STERN. Did she seemed surprised at your visit?

Mr. HOSTY. No, she didn't. She was quite friendly and invited me in, said this is the first time she had ever met an FBI agent. Very cordial.

As I say, it is my recollection I sat here on the couch and she sat across the room from me.

I then told her the purpose of my visit, that I was interested in locating the whereabouts of Lee Oswald.

She readily admitted that Mrs. Marina Oswald and Lee Oswald's two children were staying with her. She said that Lee Oswald was living somewhere in Dallas. She didn't know where. She said it was in the Oak Cliff area but she didn't have his address.

I asked her if she knew where he worked. After a moment's hesitation, she told me that he worked at the Texas School Book Depository near the downtown area of Dallas. She didn't have the exact address, and it is my recollection that we went to the phone book and looked it up, found it to be 411 Elm Street.

Mr. STERN. You looked it up while you were there?

Mr. HOSTY. Yes; that is my recollection that we looked it up in her telephone book to show it at 411 Elm Street, Dallas, Tex.

She told me at this time that she did not know where he was living, but she thought she could find out and she would let me know.

Mr. STERN. Did she tell you why she thought he was living alone in Dallas at that time?

Mr. HOSTY. Well, she said that she did not want him at her house; that she was willing to take Marina Oswald and the two children, but she didn't have room for him and she didn't want him at the house. She was willing to let him visit his wife and family, but she did not want him residing there.

Mr. STERN. What did she say about his visits?

Mr. HOSTY. She remarked that he came out there periodically to visit his wife and children on weekends.

Mr. STERN. Did she say when she expected his next visit might be?

Mr. HOSTY. I don't recall her stating when she expected him, no.

Mr. STERN. Did she say anything about the possibility of his coming later that day?

Mr. HOSTY. No, sir.

Mr. STERN. You say the interview started at about 2:30?

Mr. HOSTY. Approximately 2:30; yes, sir.

Mr. STERN. About how long did it last?

Mr. HOSTY. At the very most 20-25 minutes.

Mr. STERN. Were you alone with Mrs. Paine throughout this period?

Mr. HOSTY. No; towards the conclusion of the interview, Marina Oswald, who had apparently been napping, entered the living room.

Mr. STERN. Had you ever met Mrs. Oswald before?

Mr. HOSTY. Never before, no. As I had learned previously, and as Mrs. Paine had told me, she did not speak any English, so Mrs. Paine then told her in the Russian language who I was. I was an agent with the FBI.

I could tell from her eyes and her expression that she became quite alarmed, quite upset. I had had previous experience with people who come from Communist-controlled countries that they get excited when they see the police. They must think that we are like the Gestapo or something like that.

She became quite alarmed, and, like I say, I knew that she just had a baby the week before. So I didn't want to leave her in that state, so rather than just walking out and leaving her and not saying anything to her, I told Mrs. Paine to relate to her in the Russian language that I was not there for the purpose of harming her, harassing her, and that it wasn't the job of the FBI to harm people. It was our job to protect people.

Mrs. Paine relayed this information.

I assume she relayed it correctly. I don't speak Russian.

Representative FORD. What was the reaction, if any, on the part of Marina following that comment by Mrs. Paine?

Mr. HOSTY. The information I had her relay? She seemed to calm down a little bit, and when I left she was smiling. I left her in a relaxed mood. I didn't want to leave her alarmed and upset, a woman with a new baby. It is not the thing to do. So she apparently was smiling, happy, and she shook hands with me as I left, I wanted to leave her in a good frame of mind. I then left.

Mr. STERN. Did you address any questions to Marina Oswald through Mrs. Paine?

Mr. HOSTY. Not questions, no. I just relayed the information to her of this nature I just gave.

Mr. STERN. Anything else that you said----

Mr. HOSTY. No, sir; that is all I can recall.

Mr. STERN. To be translated for Marina Oswald?

Mr. HOSTY. No.

Mr. STERN. Anything else about your interview with Mrs. Paine?

Mr. HOSTY. Yes; after Mrs. Paine told me that she would try to find out where Lee Oswald was living, I then gave her my name and telephone number. I wrote it down on a piece of paper for her. I am fairly certain I printed it so she would be able to read it all right. I printed my name and wrote down my office telephone number, and handed it to Mrs. Paine.

Mr. STERN. Did you put anything else on this piece of paper?

Mr. HOSTY. No, sir; that was all.

Mr. STERN. Are you quite sure about your recollection of that, or are you telling us on the basis of your ordinary experience? Is this what you remember of the incident?

Mr. HOSTY. This is what I remember of it; yes, sir.

Mr. STERN. You don't remember putting anything on this paper other than your name?

Mr. HOSTY. My name and telephone number.

Mr. STERN. Office telephone?

Mr. HOSTY. Office telephone; right.

Mr. STERN. And no other telephone number?

Mr. HOSTY. No, sir.

Mr. STERN. No address?

Mr. HOSTY. No, sir.

Mr. STERN. License number?

Mr. HOSTY. No, sir.

Mr. STERN. You are quite certain that you can recall now only those two things?

Mr. HOSTY. Yes; I do this as a standard procedure. I do this all the time. I will write my name out if a person says they want to contact me. I will give them my name and telephone number, write it on a piece of paper and give it to them.

Representative FORD. Did you write on notepaper you had or paper provided by Mrs. Paine, or what?

Mr. HOSTY. It was my recollection it was on my paper. I took a piece of paper off, tore it in half, printed my name and telephone number on it that I gave to her.

Mr. STERN. Do you have cards?

Mr. HOSTY. No, sir; we don't have cards. We are not allowed to carry cards.

Mr. STERN. When Mrs. Paine told you that Lee Harvey Oswald was working at the School Book Depository, did that mean anything to you? Did you remember the building?

Mr. HOSTY. No, sir; I knew of the building in the outskirts of the downtown area. That is about all. I looked up the address, and I recognized the address, but it meant nothing to me.

Mr. STERN. Is there anything else at all that you can recall being said on November 1?

Mr. HOSTY. As I said earlier, I think I should bring this in, that Mrs. Paine was a little bit reluctant to give me his place of employment at first. She said that Lee Oswald had alleged that the FBI had had him fired from every job he ever had. I told her this was not true, that I had never had anyone fired from any job nor did I know of any other FBI agents that had ever done this.

I reassured her that I wanted to know his place of employment for the purpose of determining whether or not he was employed in a sensitive industry, and when I found out that he was working in a warehouse as a laborer, I realized this was not a sensitive industry.

Mr. STERN. You were acting for the New Orleans office at this time?

Mr. HOSTY. At this time; yes, sir.

Mr. STERN. In trying to locate him?

Mr. HOSTY. Right.

Mr. STERN. Had they asked you to try to determine what kind of work he was doing and whether he might be in a sensitive position?

Mr. HOSTY. Well, this is automatically considered; yes. They didn't have to ask me. I knew I was to do that.

Mr. DULLES. Did you clear this with the Dallas or Fort Worth office? How do you work out that liaison?

Mr. HOSTY. How do you mean, sir?

Mr. DULLES. I mean with the FBI. At this time this was the territory, I assume, of Dallas or Fort Worth.

Mr. HOSTY. Right. Irving, Tex., is in the Dallas territory; yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. The Dallas territory?

Mr. HOSTY. Right.

Mr. DULLES. Did you clear or notify the Dallas office either before or after?

Mr. HOSTY. You mean after I determined this?

Mr. DULLES. Yes.

Mr. HOSTY. Oh, yes, sir. This occurred on the 1st. This was a Friday. I returned to the Dallas office. I covered a couple of other leads on the way back. I got in shortly after 5 o'clock and all our stenos had gone home. This information has to go registered mail, and it could not go then until Monday morning.

Monday morning--shall I continue?

Mr. STERN. Yes.

Mr. HOSTY. On Monday morning, I made a pretext telephone call to the Texas School Book Depository. I called up and asked for the personnel department, asked if a Lee Oswald was employed there. They said yes, he was. I said what address does he show? They said 2515 West Fifth Street, Irving, Tex., which I knew not to be his correct address.

I then sent a communication, airmail communication to the New Orleans office advising them--and to the headquarters of the FBI advising them--and then instructing the New Orleans office to make the Dallas office the office of origin. We were now assuming control, because he had now been verified in our division.

Representative FORD. When you say you made several other checks on the way to the office, did this involve----

Mr. HOSTY. Not in this case; other cases. I run anywhere from 25 to 40 cases any one time. I have to work them all, fit them in as I go.

Representative FORD. These other checks did not involve this case?

Mr. HOSTY. No; other cases I was working on.

Mr. STERN. Mr. Hosty, at your interview on November 1 with Mrs. Paine, do you recall whether you asked her whether there was any telephone number that she knew of where Lee Harvey Oswald could be reached?

Mr. HOSTY. No, sir; I didn't ask her about a telephone number; no, sir.

Mr. STERN. And she didn't tell you?

Mr. HOSTY. She didn't volunteer. She told me she did not know where he lived.

Mr. STERN. Why don't you continue with the chronological report.

Mr. HOSTY. As I say, then I forwarded this airmail communication.

Mr. McCLOY. May I ask at this point, did she indicate whether there were any belongings of Lee Oswald in the house?

Mr. HOSTY. She did not indicate, but, of course, she did tell me his wife and children were there, and I assumed that their personal effects would be there. We didn't go into that.

Mr. McCLOY. You made no search of the house?

Mr. HOSTY. No, sir; that would have been illegal. I couldn't have done it without his consent. There was no attempt to do that.

Mr. STERN. Did you have any thought of interviewing Marina Oswald at the time she came into Mrs. Paine's living room in connection with the investigation of Marina Oswald that you had started out thinking about in March?

Mr. HOSTY. Yes; I could have interviewed her here, but I thought at the time she was under a little emotional stress, this was maybe not a good time. Also, as I said before, we have a requirement to have two agents present when a subject is interviewed. I was alone. And, also, I wanted to get the New Orleans office to check their files to see if there was anything that I didn't have. For all I knew, they could have already interviewed her. I didn't know this. So before I would proceed with that, I wanted to make sure I had all the records, another agent, and at a better time where I could talk in more detail with Mrs. Oswald.

Then on the 5th of November----

Mr. STERN. Have you told us everything that elapsed--that occurred between November 1 and November 5?

Mr. HOSTY. Yes. Then on the 5th of November, I was on my way to the Fort Worth area, and stopped at Mrs. Paine's very briefly.

Mr. STERN. How did that happen to come about?

Mr. HOSTY. Well, I was on my way to Fort Worth, and I did not have his residence. I thought I would stop by. Mrs. Paine told me she would attempt to locate where he was living. It was not too much out of my way, so I just drove over to Mrs. Paine's. I had another agent with me that day.

Mr. STERN. Who was that?

Mr. HOSTY. Agent Gary S. Wilson. Agent Wilson was a brand new agent out of training school. And it is the custom to assign a new agent to work with an older agent for a period of 6 weeks. They work with different agents every day to observe what they are doing. This is the only reason he was with me, the only reason I had another man.

We went to the front porch. I rang the bell, talked to Mrs. Paine, at which time she advised me that Lee Oswald had been out to visit her, visit his wife, at her house over the weekend, but she had still not determined where he was living in Dallas, and she also made the remark that she considered him to be a very illogical person, that he had told her that weekend that he was a Trotskyite Communist. Since she did not have his address, I thanked her and left.

Mr. STERN. Did she indicate how she felt about this description of Trotskyite Communist that he pinned on himself?

Mr. HOSTY. Well, she thought he was rather illogical, is the way she put it. She was a little more amused than anything else. She thought he was illogical, as I say, was the term she used.

Mr. STERN. Was Marina Oswald present at all?

Mr. HOSTY. I didn't see her. She was probably in the house, but I didn't see her. I didn't go in the house. I just went in the front door.

Mr. STERN. How long do you think it was?

Mr. HOSTY. Not more than 1 or 2 minutes. Then I got in the car and left.

Mr. STERN. Where was your car parked at that time?

Mr. HOSTY. I believe in the same place, because here, again, this second car of Michael Paine's was still in front of the Paine house, and Mrs. Paine's station wagon was in the driveway. So I am fairly sure I parked here at the same spot.

Mr. STERN. And you are indicating the spot on Exhibit 430 where you initialed?

Mr. HOSTY. Right, where I parked on the first of November, to the best of my recollection that is where I parked.

Representative FORD. Did Agent Wilson accompany you to the door?

Mr. HOSTY. Yes; he walked up.

Representative FORD. And heard the conversation?

Mr. HOSTY. Yes, sir; he did.

Mr. STERN. Did you report anything about this conversation to the New Orleans office?

Mr. HOSTY. No; because there was nothing new to report. I knew I was to become the office of origin. There would be a report which I would be preparing and I would incorporate it in my report. There was nothing new that they didn't already know that would aid them.

Mr. STERN. Is there anything else about this interview on November 5 that you can tell us?

Mr. HOSTY. No, sir; that is about all.

Representative FORD. Was this comment by Mrs. Paine that Oswald had said he was a Trotskyite----

Mr. HOSTY. Trotskyite Communist was the word she used; yes, sir.

Representative FORD. Was that new as far as your knowledge of your file was concerned?

Mr. HOSTY. Well, he was a self-admitted Marxist. He had stated that earlier. The New Orleans office had reported that. He had been on television and made that statement in New Orleans, so this appeared to be in keeping with his character.

Representative FORD. The use of the word Trotskyite didn't add anything to the previous Marxist identification?

Mr. HOSTY. Well, of course, that is a particular type of Marxism, Trotskyite, the followers of Leon Trotsky's particular deviation, but this did show that he was not a member of the Communist Party USA, follower of the Leninist-Stalinist-Khrushchev movement, but would be an independent Marxist would be what it would show me, not tied in with the regular Communist Party USA.

Representative FORD. Is there anything particularly identifiable with the Trotskyite element that might alert you to anything?

Mr. HOSTY. Well, yes. The Socialist Workers Party is the Trotskyite Party in the United States, and they are supposedly the key element in the Fair Play for Cuba Committee, or were the key element in the Fair Play for Cuba Committee. So this would tie in with the fact that he was a member of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee, and, therefore, he claimed to be a Trotskyite--this would follow.

Mr. McCLOY. Do you associate with Trotskyite Communists any greater disposition to acts of violence than the normal Communist?

Mr. HOSTY. No, sir; no more than the others.

Mr. McCLOY. No doctrine of policy by assassination?

Mr. HOSTY. No, sir.

Mr. STERN. Have you reviewed, Mr. Hosty, the document that has been marked No. 830 for identification preliminary to your testimony today?

Mr. HOSTY. Oh, yes; this one you gave me earlier; yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. I don't find a date on that. Maybe there is one there.

Mr. HOSTY. This is an insert, sir. The date of the various information will appear at the head of each paragraph.

Mr. DULLES. I see. But the date of preparation is not----

Mr. HOSTY. The date of preparation would be some time after the 22d of November.

Representative FORD. What do those identification numbers at the top in the left-hand corner mean?

Mr. HOSTY. That is our Dallas office file number 105-1716.

Representative FORD. Does that appear on the other documents?

Mr. HOSTY. Wait a minute; this relates to a control file. I believe that is the control file on Mrs. Paine, Mrs. Paine's file number.

Mr. DULLES. I wonder if I could just interrupt.

This is on the record. I am not quite clear, maybe because I came in late. Are you from the Dallas or New Orleans office?