Part 67

Mr. McCLOY. Did he have the membership cards in his possession at that time?

Mr. QUIGLEY. Yes, sir; he did, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. You saw them?

Mr. QUIGLEY. Yes, sir; I did, sir. I think the last you will notice, in that last sentence he had in his possession both cards and exhibited both of them.

Mr. McCLOY. Right. One of them was, at least one of them, was signed A. Hidell?

Mr. QUIGLEY. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. McCLOY. Do we have those cards?

Mr. STERN. I believe we do. I do not have them here.

Mr. McCLOY. But it is important to have them because the name Hidell was in the handwriting--but these are membership cards purporting to be membership cards in the Fair Play for Cuba organization.

Would you be able to identify these cards if you saw them, Mr. Quigley, as the ones that were shown in Oswald's possession exhibited to you?

Mr. QUIGLEY. I don't believe I could truthfully say if you showed me a card, these two cards now that those were the identical ones.

From the description and the data that I have recorded I could say they were similar.

Mr. McCLOY. All right.

Mr. QUIGLEY. I don't just feel I could identify them. Bear this in mind, sir; this material was evidence as far as the New Orleans Police Department was concerned at the time, we couldn't take this material.

Mr. McCLOY. I understand.

Mr. DULLES. Did you say that some of it was turned over to the Secret Service?

Mr. QUIGLEY. No, sir; not to my knowledge.

Mr. DULLES. Not this material?

Mr. QUIGLEY. Not to my knowledge, sir.

Mr. STERN. Did Oswald answer all the questions you put to him in the course of your interview?

Mr. QUIGLEY. I am sorry.

Mr. STERN. Did Oswald answer all the questions you put to him in the course of your interview?

Mr. QUIGLEY. No; he did not answer all of them.

Mr. STERN. Do you recall the nature of the questions he didn't want to answer or he evaded?

(At this point Mr. McCloy left the hearing room.)

Mr. QUIGLEY. When I began asking him specific details with respect to his activities in the Fair Play for Cuba Committee in New Orleans as to where meetings were held, who was involved, what occurred, he was reticent to furnish information, reluctant and actually as far as I was concerned, was completely evasive on them.

Mr. STERN. Did he tell you why he had requested the interview?

Mr. QUIGLEY. No; he did not, sir.

Mr. STERN. Did you form any impression as to why he had requested the interview?

Mr. QUIGLEY. Well, he was in police custody at the time, involved in a disturbing of the peace charge, was becoming involved in a fight with three Cubans on the street in the distribution of Fair Play for Cuba literature. I felt that he was probably making a self-serving statement in attempting to explain to me why he was distributing this literature, and for no other reason, and when I got to questioning him further then he felt that his purpose had been served and he wouldn't say anything further.

Mr. STERN. Why do you think it might have been important for him to explain to you what he was doing----

Mr. QUIGLEY. Well----

Mr. STERN. Or to an FBI agent?

Mr. QUIGLEY. Well, he is in custody--this I cannot answer you. You ask me what I thought, this is what my feeling was on the matter. His actual motive, I really wouldn't have any idea.

Mr. STERN. Is there any possibility that he was trying to give the New Orleans police the idea that he was working for or with the FBI?

Mr. QUIGLEY. Not to my knowledge, sir; no.

Mr. STERN. None of his conduct went in that direction?

Mr. QUIGLEY. No; he certainly, to my knowledge, never advised the New Orleans police of this. As a matter of fact, he, during the course of the interview with Lieutenant Martello, made a flat statement that he would like to talk to an FBI agent, which is not an unusual situation. Frequently persons who are in custody of local authorities would like to talk to the FBI.

The CHAIRMAN. Is that so?

Mr. QUIGLEY. That is true, sir. Many times people don't really understand what the FBI jurisdiction is. They feel we handle a multitude of things which we don't. We are happy to talk with them, we record the information, and if we can be of assistance, we are, and if we cannot be of assistance we tell them we cannot and we explain to them why we can't be of assistance.

The CHAIRMAN. Did he ask you to be of any assistance to him?

Mr. QUIGLEY. No, sir; he did not.

Mr. STERN. Mr. Quigley, did you believe he was telling you the truth in all respects?

Mr. QUIGLEY. No; I did not, sir.

Mr. STERN. In what respect did you think he was not telling the truth?

Mr. QUIGLEY. Well, as I stated before, when--I accepted basic information that he furnished to me regarding background, about what occurred at the time of his arrest. Then when I began questioning him as to who A. J. Hidell was, who the members of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee were in New Orleans, where they held their meetings, what literature he read, which he claimed he had been receiving from the Fair Play for Cuba Committee, he was noncommittal or wouldn't discuss it.

At one point of the interview he told me that he had held one of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee meetings at his home. I asked him, "Well, how did you get in touch with the other people?" "Well, I don't care to discuss that." "Who were the persons at the meeting?" "I don't know." "Did you know any names at all?" "Yes. They were introduced to me by first names only." "What were their first names?" "I cannot remember." So it was apparent to me that he was not certainly going to furnish anything that he had made his statement, why I did not know. But when I pressed him for details he declined to furnish anything.

Another one, for example, I asked him about A. J. Hidell, obviously you can see why I would have been interested in this. "Well, Mr. Hidell had a telephone." "What was Mr. Hidell's telephone number?" "Mr. Hidell's telephone has been disconnected." "What was the number?" "I can't remember." This was the end of it, so this is the basis for my thinking.

Mr. STERN. Yes.

Mr. QUIGLEY. One more thing I would like to add that might help clarify it, as to why I felt it was a self-serving statement is that he told me that he was distributing these throwaways for the Fair Play for Cuba Committee because of a patriotic duty, as a patriotic American citizen. This I felt was certainly, in his opinion, a self-serving statement.

Mr. STERN. Did he elaborate on that? Did he tell you in what respect he thought he was performing a patriotic duty by distributing this pamphlet?

Mr. QUIGLEY. No; not in so many words, but he did explain that he felt that the goal and theme of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee was that it was his patriotic duty to bring to the attention of as many people as he could, the fact that the United States should not attack Cuba at the time or interfere into their political affairs, and that by spreading what he considered the philosophy of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee, that the American people would better understand the internal conditions there, and the American people should be given an opportunity to go to Cuba and let them make their own mind up as to what the situation was as of that time rather than just merely reading it in the newspaper.

Senator COOPER. I have a question I would like to ask. You have just stated that Oswald told you something about his own purposes and also the objectives of this Fair Play for Cuba Committee. Did he make any comment on the policy of the United States toward Cuba?

Mr. QUIGLEY. No, sir; he did not.

Senator COOPER. Did he say----

Mr. QUIGLEY. To my recollection.

Senator COOPER. Did he say anything affirmatively opposing or stating what the policy of the United States was and to be opposed to it?

Mr. QUIGLEY. I have no recollection of that, sir.

Senator COOPER. Did he mention any official of the United States as opposing his policy?

Mr. QUIGLEY. No, sir; he did not.

Senator COOPER. The President of the United States, President Kennedy?

Mr. QUIGLEY. No, sir; everything that he told me I recorded in my notes, so everything that I have here in this document is what he told me. Now bear this in mind when it was apparent to me that he was not giving me information that, I didn't continue for hours and hours--I did not know who this individual was at the time, so I felt that I had adequate background for the time being. If we wished to pursue it further, at least we had a basis to talk to him.

Mr. STERN. Your report does not indicate, Mr. Quigley, specifically that you believed some of the information he told you was not true?

Mr. QUIGLEY. That is correct.

Mr. STERN. Tell us why that is.

Mr. QUIGLEY. Well, I feel that a person reviewing the document can draw their own conclusions that the information that he has furnished is not complete, is inaccurate, that he is obviously withholding information, plus the fact that, as a matter of policy, we do not express conclusions or personal opinions. We are a factfinding agency. We allow the facts to speak for themselves.

Mr. STERN. Would you look at page 10 of the report, the biographical data on Lee Harvey Oswald. At "place of birth" you have entered "New Orleans, Louisiana," but then put in parentheses, "at the time of arrest Oswald claimed he was from Cuba."

Mr. QUIGLEY. That is correct.

Mr. STERN. This is not in your report as such, there is no statement, no recorded note of anything he told you about where he was born. How did that come up and what did he say?

Mr. QUIGLEY. Following my interview with Oswald, I, of course, spoke with Lieutenant Martello, and I made an observation that this Oswald was a New Orleans boy. I couldn't remember that yesterday, that he was a New Orleans boy, and Lieutenant Martello said, "Well, that isn't what he told the officers at the time of arrest. He said he was born in Cuba," and this is why I recorded this. We frequently have persons who are arrested in various places in the county, and furnish record different dates, places of birth, and we always record any variations of what we feel is the truth, so our record will be complete on such a situation.

Mr. STERN. Did Lieutenant Martello tell you anything else at the time you learned this?

Mr. QUIGLEY. No, sir; we didn't discuss it further.

Mr. STERN. What was Lee Harvey Oswald's demeanor during the interview, his attitude, his cooperativeness?

Mr. QUIGLEY. He was receptive at the time I was questioning him about his general background, such as employment, "where have you been, what have you done," he told me he was unemployed at the time. He had previously worked for William Riley Coffee Co. there in New Orleans and he had been honorably discharged out of the service; that he had moved to Fort Worth after he had gotten out of the service and married, there were no problems involved here. But when I began questioning him with regard to his activities in the Fair Play for Cuba Committee, then he became reticent, reluctant to furnish information, and in some instances refused to furnish any information.

Mr. STERN. Was he antagonistic, hostile?

Mr. QUIGLEY. He was antagonistic to some extent, not overly so. He certainly was not friendly.

Mr. STERN. How long did the interview last, to the best you can recall?

Mr. QUIGLEY. As best I can recall approximately an hour and a half. This would include, of course, my reviewing of the documents with him, and so on.

Mr. STERN. Did you get any indication that he was a dangerous individual or that he was, potentially, a violent individual?

Mr. QUIGLEY. Absolutely none at all.

Mr. DULLES. What documents did you review with him?

Mr. QUIGLEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. The Fair Play for Cuba Committee and the Corliss Lamont report?

Mr. QUIGLEY. Yes, sir; and the throwaways I went over those generally with him.

Mr. STERN. When you concluded your interview, then what did you do? After awhile you talked to Lieutenant Martello. What did you do after that?

Mr. QUIGLEY. I returned to my headquarters.

Mr. STERN. Did you check your office----

Mr. QUIGLEY. I did check our files and I determined that we had an investigation currently underway with regard to Oswald. I knew it was assigned to an agent in the New Orleans office who sat right in front of me. So I, on Monday morning, I discussed the fact that I had interviewed Oswald at the first district jail on Saturday morning.

Mr. STERN. Do you recall what you told him about the case other than the details? Did you think Oswald was worthy of further investigation?

Mr. QUIGLEY. Well, sir, this was not my decision. I was merely recording the results of an interview. I had nothing to do with the actual investigation of this particular matter.

Mr. STERN. Did you think he was behaving rationally or irrationally?

Mr. QUIGLEY. I would say he was acting rationally. You are speaking of the time I interviewed him?

Mr. STERN. Yes.

Mr. QUIGLEY. Rationally.

Mr. STERN. Were you concerned at all by the fact that he had requested this interview, volunteered for it after his arrest in connection with Fair Play for Cuba Committee activity and thereafter was misleading and reluctant to talk to you about these activities? Didn't you think it was strange?

Mr. QUIGLEY. No, sir; I just thought this was a normal situation that has occurred many times of persons in custody of the police wish to talk to an FBI agent. We have them come to our headquarters in New Orleans all the time to talk to us. So I didn't consider this unusual at all.

Mr. STERN. Would it be usual or had it occurred before that someone would ask for an interview and then refuse to respond to your questions. Didn't that seem strange?

Mr. QUIGLEY. Not necessarily; not necessarily. Frequently people will have a problem and want to talk to an FBI agent and they want to tell them what their problem is, but then when you start probing into it then they don't want to talk to you. I think that is just human nature. If you are probing too deep it gets a little touchy.

Mr. DULLES. Who was in charge of this other investigation from the FBI office with regard to Lee Harvey Oswald that you found out about later, was this Special Agent Milton R. Kaack?

Mr. QUIGLEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. Did you make your report to him, did you?

Mr. QUIGLEY. Orally, yes; I discussed it with him.

Mr. DULLES. When it was sent forward was it sent forward with these documents we have in Exhibit 826 of which your report forms pages 6 through 10?

Mr. QUIGLEY. Yes, sir; this was prepared--that is correct--this was then prepared and transcribed. But I had discussed the matter or discussed the fact that I had interviewed him.

Mr. DULLES. Was Special Agent Kaack your superior or just happened to be in charge of this particular subject?

Mr. QUIGLEY. No; this investigative matter was assigned to him.

Mr. DULLES. I see. He was the one then who forwarded the report to Washington, this report we have, Exhibit 826?

Mr. QUIGLEY. He is the one who prepared it; yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. And included verbatim your memorandum in this report?

Mr. QUIGLEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. Pages 7 to 10.

Mr. QUIGLEY. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Six to ten.

Mr. STERN. Have you found subsequent to this interview, Mr. Quigley, that you had any other contact with the case of Lee Harvey Oswald before this interview?

Mr. QUIGLEY. Yes; I discovered at the time I checked our files that on April 18, 1961, I had, as a result of a request of the Dallas office, checked the office of naval intelligence records at the U. S. Naval Station at Algiers. My purpose in checking that was merely to record what information their files contained.

Mr. STERN. And then you would send a report to that effect to the Dallas office?

Mr. QUIGLEY. I sent a letter I believe in that particular case.

Mr. STERN. Any other contact before this?

Mr. QUIGLEY. No, sir.

Mr. STERN. Any other contact with Lee Harvey Oswald or his case or anything to do with his case?

Mr. QUIGLEY. No, sir.

Mr. STERN. After your interview in the police station but before the assassination?

Mr. QUIGLEY. No, sir.

Mr. STERN. Up to the time of the assassination?

Mr. QUIGLEY. No, sir.

Mr. DULLES. I note this case is marked "P," which I understand is pending.

Mr. QUIGLEY. That means----

Mr. DULLES. This was an open case in the New Orleans office?

Mr. QUIGLEY. That is correct, sir. In other words, this indicates to us administratively that there is further investigation to be conducted, whether it be in New Orleans or some other place in the United States or the world, as a matter of fact.

Mr. DULLES. You mentioned Algiers a minute ago. What Algiers is this?

Mr. QUIGLEY. Algiers, La., sir, right across from New Orleans.

Mr. DULLES. I don't know the geography well enough, I thought it wasn't Algiers in Africa.

Mr. QUIGLEY. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Gentlemen, I think we might as well adjourn for lunch now. What time would you like to return? Is 2 o'clock all right with you, or 2:30? Which would you rather have? We will be back at 2 o'clock.

(Whereupon, at 1:05 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)

Afternoon Session

TESTIMONY OF JOHN LESTER QUIGLEY RESUMED

The President's Commission reconvened at 2:20 p.m.

The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will be in order. Mr. Stern, you may continue.

Mr. STERN. Before the luncheon recess, Mr. Chief Justice, the witness, Mr. Quigley, had identified Commission Exhibit No. 826 and afforded the Commission this one-page document which has been marked Commission Exhibit No. 827. He identified it as a copy furnished him by Lieutenant Martello of the New Orleans Police Department of Lieutenant Martello's own handwritten copy of a document in the wallet of Lee Harvey Oswald at the time of his arrest. I think it should be admitted, if it may be, in this form.

The CHAIRMAN. It may be.

(The documents heretofore marked for identification as Commission Exhibits Nos. 826 and 827, were received in evidence.)

Mr. STERN. Also, this morning a question was raised concerning the two membership cards which are mentioned at page 7 of the report.

Mr. QUIGLEY. I show you an envelope marked Commission Exhibit 828 for identification. There is a card inside which, unfortunately, has been badly discolored by fingerprint testing. Would you look at it and I think if you turn it in different directions of light you may be able to make out the typing and writing on the card.

Mr. QUIGLEY. Yes; I can see this.

Mr. STERN. Can you identify the card?

Mr. QUIGLEY. I am in no position to identify this particular exhibit.

Mr. STERN. Can you tell us anything about the information that appears on the card? Does it compare with any other information you have about another card?

Mr. QUIGLEY. At the time that I interviewed Oswald in New Orleans on August 10, 1963, I observed two Fair Play for Cuba Committee cards. One of them was signed V. L. Lee and was dated May 28, 1963, and it purported to be a Fair Play for Cuba Committee card showing the address of 799 Broadway, New York 3, N. Y. In looking at this exhibit, I see that this is a similar card as described in my report.

Mr. STERN. Similar in what respects?

Mr. QUIGLEY. Similar in that the identification I have just described appears on the card in the Exhibit 828. However, I am not able to identify the signature of any person other than V. L. Lee, and the date I am unable to determine, although I do believe I see 5-28-63 typewritten on the card.

Mr. STERN. What about the color of the card? There is a portion on the back, Mr. Quigley, which has not been discolored by the fingerprint treatment.

Mr. QUIGLEY. I notice this is gray in color and it is similar to a card that was in Oswald's possession at that time which was also gray in color.

Mr. STERN. Mr. Chairman, may this be admitted?

The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 828 for identification, and received in evidence.)

The CHAIRMAN. It has been identified and has a number, has it?

Mr. STERN. Yes; No. 828.

The CHAIRMAN. 828 will be admitted under that number.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. STERN. Mr. Quigley, will you look, please, at Commission Exhibit No. 825 for identification, at the fourth page from the end of that exhibit? Can you identify that page for us?

Mr. QUIGLEY. Yes; I can. This is an affidavit that was prepared at the FBI office, Dallas, Tex., on February 17, 1964, which bears my signature as well as the signature of Miss Matty Havens, the notary public.

Mr. STERN. What was the occasion for your making this affidavit, Mr. Quigley?

Mr. QUIGLEY. I was instructed to proceed to our Dallas office to prepare such a document. This document relates to informant material. This is the general context of it. Did you care for me to read the document?

Mr. STERN. No; we have it. Does informant mean to you only a person who gives information in return for money or some other valuable consideration, or does it have a broader meaning as far as you are concerned?

Mr. QUIGLEY. It would have a broader meaning as far as I was concerned.

Mr. STERN. What would that mean when you used the word in this affidavit? What did you mean by "informant"?

Mr. QUIGLEY. One who furnishes information.

Mr. STERN. For whatever reason?

Mr. QUIGLEY. Whatever may be the reason; yes.

Mr. STERN. And you did not, according to your affidavit, ask Mr. Oswald----

Mr. QUIGLEY. I did not ask or suggest that Mr. Oswald become an informant of the FBI nor did I offer him any money or any other inducements to become an informant.

Mr. STERN. Did you say anything to him at all about getting in touch with you or the FBI again about any matter?

Mr. QUIGLEY. I did not.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Quigley, if you will, we will recall you if a document comes just for your identification. It will only take a few moments, I am sure.

Thank you very much for your coming and helping us.

Mr. QUIGLEY. Thank you very much, sir.

TESTIMONY OF JAMES PATRICK HOSTY, JR.

The CHAIRMAN. Would you raise your right hand, please, and be sworn? Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give before this Commission shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. HOSTY. I do.

The CHAIRMAN. Will you be seated, please? Mr. Stern will conduct the examination, Mr. Hosty.

Mr. STERN. Would you state your full name for the record?

Mr. HOSTY. My full name is James Patrick Hosty, Jr.

Mr. STERN. And what is your present address?

Mr. HOSTY. 11018 Genetta Drive, Dallas, 28, Tex.

Mr. STERN. What was your education at the college level, Mr. Hosty?

Mr. HOSTY. I have a bachelor of science degree in business administration from the University of Notre Dame.

Mr. STERN. When was that granted?

Mr. HOSTY. In 1948, June of 1948.

Mr. STERN. When did you join the Federal Bureau of Investigation?

Mr. HOSTY. January 21, 1952.

Mr. STERN. Briefly, what sort of work were you employed at between 1948 and 1952?

Mr. HOSTY. I was first employed by the First National Bank in Chicago, and then employed by the Beechnut Packing Co. as a salesman.

Mr. STERN. What were your assignments in the FBI?

Mr. HOSTY. I was first assigned to the Louisville division on general investigation, then transferred to the Dallas division and served in general investigation until approximately June of 1955 when I was assigned to the internal security squad.

Mr. STERN. When did you first arrive in the Dallas office?

Mr. HOSTY. December 2, 1953.

Mr. STERN. You have been in Dallas----

Mr. HOSTY. Ever since.

Mr. STERN. Ever since?

Mr. HOSTY. Correct.

Mr. STERN. Are you familiar with the Dallas area generally?

Mr. HOSTY. Yes, sir.

Mr. STERN. You know the downtown locations?

Mr. HOSTY. Yes, sir.

Mr. STERN. The buildings and streets?

Mr. HOSTY. Yes, sir.

Mr. STERN. Can you tell us whether you were assigned to the case of Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. HOSTY. Yes, sir; I was.