Part 62

One of the really highly significant points is the formation of the letter "x" in the word "Texas" which has already been mentioned in connection with other exhibits. Now, this word appears on 826, on the second----

Mr. EISENBERG. Excuse me. That exhibit should be, have been, 820A. Let's refer to it from now on as 820A.

(The item referred to was renumbered.)

Mr. COLE. The exhibit just mentioned is understood to be 820A, and the word "Texas" appears on the second line of the body of the letter. The method of forming this "x" is first to construct a =U=-like form, that is, a form having two cusps with a shallow curve connecting the two, and then to make the crossbar in such a manner that it comes very close to the second cusp. This is a very unusual variation of the letter "x," and it appears in the standard writing--also in the word "Texas"--in several places, chart B, items 4, 12, and 13.

The writing shows the tendency to exaggerate certain approach strokes or initial strokes of letters. In the body of Exhibit 821 this is evident in the letter "i" of "is," which is the second word of the first line, and moving along that same first line we have the same effect for the first stroke of the "t" of "to" and the "t" of "that." Then moving down to the second paragraph, third word, the same effect is shown, and this is illustrated in the standard writing in two places, one good example being chart A, item 1, the word "to," the same chart, item 3, the word "the."

The construction of the small letter "p" has been mentioned heretofore, has been characterized by an absence of an upper extension, that is, no extension that passes above the height of the body of the letter, and the body of the letter is made in the form of an arch, rather than a circle closed against the staff. This is shown in the words "presently" and "employ," which are in the last line of writing of this exhibit, and this is repeated in the standard writing as shown by chart A, item 2, the word "support," item 3, the word "port" and the word "transportation."

There is a very close agreement in all details of the signature of Lee H. Oswald on this letter with the several examples of the signatures shown on these charts, chart A, item 15, chart B, item 15, and chart C, item 6, second to the last line.

The word "Texas," including this highly significant "x," is repeated as the last word on this letter.

These constitute some of my reasons for believing that Exhibit 820A is in the handwriting of the author of the standard writing.

Mr. EISENBERG. Now, to recapitulate then, all the standards which you have examined and which were put in evidence, and all of the questioned documents which you have examined and which were put in evidence, are in the handwriting of the same person, with the exceptions you have noted, such as "A. J. Hidell" on the penultimate exhibit, the FPCC card?

Mr. COLE. Yes, sir.

Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cole, did you have any information concerning any identifications or nonidentifications of handwriting made by any other Federal agency in this matter?

Mr. COLE. No, sir.

Mr. EISENBERG. Did you have any other information whatsoever concerning identification or nonidentification by anyone in this matter?

Mr. COLE. No, sir.

Mr. EISENBERG. Do you at this point have any such information?

Mr. COLE. No, sir.

Mr. EISENBERG. That completes my examination, Mr. McCloy.

Mr. McCLOY. Off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. McCLOY. Commission Exhibit 776 is a series of checks which have been endorsed by Oswald, some in lead pencil and some in ink. Some of those endorsements seem to be, rather the handwriting seems to be, very irregular, loose, malformed, certain other ones very clear and quite regular, and in comparison with other standards of Oswald's I find some difficulty in conforming the signatures on certain of these endorsements to those standards. I wonder if you would look at these and tell me whether you have any comments in regard to the comments I have made about this--about these checks? The first two or three there seem to exemplify what I am talking about.

Mr. COLE. In my opinion the endorsements on these checks show a moderately wide range of writing habit, and they also show variations which may be due to an attitude about the act of writing, and I am thinking especially of the more distorted signatures, such as that appearing on No. 2408; and by attitude I mean that a person might find the act of writing very inconvenient or distasteful or might actually be experiencing some strong emotion at the particular time.

Mr. McCLOY. Could it be, might I interrupt, could it be that he was writing while he was in movement here, while he was in an automobile or some jolting vehicle?

Mr. COLE. Well, that can affect handwriting, of course, but I believe it is unlikely, because the first letter of his name is well formed. The first letter of "Lee" on this endorsement of 2408 shows as much skill and control as any of the better signatures.

Mr. McCLOY. You think maybe something irritated him in between?

Mr. COLE. That is a possibility. I think most people find the act of writing, especially writing a signature, a pleasant thing to do. I think that is one reason why people develop a somewhat higher skill.

Mr. McCLOY. It depends on whether it is an endorsement of a check or a drawing of the check.

Mr. COLE. That could make a difference.

Mr. McCLOY. Well, thank you very much.

Mr. COLE. Yes, sir.

(Whereupon, at 2:30 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)

_Tuesday, May 5, 1964_

TESTIMONY OF JOHN W. FAIN, JOHN LESTER QUIGLEY, AND JAMES PATRICK HOSTY, JR.

The President's Commission met at 9:25 a.m. on May 5, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C.

Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Senator John Sherman Cooper, Representative Gerald R. Ford, John J. McCloy, and Allen W. Dulles, members.

Also present were J. Lee Rankin, general counsel; David W. Belin, assistant counsel; Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel; Norman Redlich, assistant counsel; Samuel A. Stern, assistant counsel; Howard P. Willens, assistant counsel; Charles Murray, observer; and Leon Jaworski, special counsel to the attorney general of Texas.

TESTIMONY OF JOHN W. FAIN

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Fain, the purpose of today's hearing is to take the testimony of members of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, including yourself, who interviewed Lee Harvey Oswald or other important witnesses, before and after the assassination, and concerning the assassination of President Kennedy, both before and after.

We will also take the testimony today of Mr. Belmont, one of your superiors. Would you please rise, Mr. Fain, and raise your right hand and be sworn. You solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give before this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. FAIN. I do, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Will you be seated, please.

Mr. Stern will conduct the examination. Mr. Stern.

Mr. STERN. Yes, sir.

Mr. Fain, would you state your full name for the record, please.

Mr. FAIN. John Wythe Fain.

Mr. STERN. And your address?

Mr. FAIN. 12711 Pebblebrook, Houston 24, Tex.

Mr. STERN. What is your education, Mr. Fain, at the college level?

Mr. FAIN. After graduation from Weatherford High School in 1926, I entered Weatherford Junior College at Weatherford, Tex., which I finished in 2 years in 1928. After teaching school for about 4 years, I entered the University of Texas, in the summer of 1933. I finished my prelaw work, and in 1936, the spring of that year, I received my LL.B. degree in law from the University of Texas.

Mr. STERN. Are you a member of the bar, Mr. Fain?

Mr. FAIN. I am a member of the Texas State Bar.

Mr. STERN. Can you summarize briefly your employment experience after receiving your law degree and before joining the Federal Bureau of Investigation?

Mr. FAIN. I will have to go back just a little bit there. In 1932 I ran for the office of representative in the State Legislature from Weatherford, Tex., my home city in Parker County, my home county, and served two terms, no opposition on the second term, and then I did not seek reelection at the end of the second term. I chose to go on and get my law degree at the University of Texas. Then, in 1937 I became employed. Robert B. Anderson, whom I suppose you know----

The CHAIRMAN. Former Secretary of the Treasury.

Mr. FAIN. Former Secretary of the Treasury, yes; he and I were good friends, and it happened, that he was in the adjoining county of Johnson, which touched my county, Parker. I had met him in Weatherford Junior College, and we were in the same debating society at Weatherford Junior College, and I served in the Texas State Legislature with him, I sat in some of his law classes at the University of Texas, and then he was instrumental in giving me or getting me appointed to, a position as district supervisor of the Texas Unemployment Compensation Commission. It is now known as the Texas Employment Commission.

I was in charge of investigations of claims for unemployment insurance, and I served in that capacity at Waco, Tex., until on September 8 of 1942 I entered the FBI. Of course, I made my application prior to that. I served in the Federal Bureau of Investigation as a law-trained special agent until October 29 of 1962, upon which date I retired voluntarily.

Mr. STERN. Can you describe briefly your experience in the FBI.

Mr. FAIN. Yes, sir. After finishing my training session here at the seat of government. I believe that lasted 12 weeks at that time, I took my practical experience here for a couple of weeks, and then was assigned to the Chicago, Ill., field office, where I remained for a period of approximately 4 months. I received a transfer to Oklahoma City, where I was 3 weeks, and then they stationed me at Tulsa, Okla., as a resident agent, where I remained approximately a year. I then was transferred to San Francisco, Calif., where I remained for approximately 2 years; and in December of 1945 I was transferred to Dallas, Tex., where I remained for approximately 5 years in the head office there, division office in Dallas, and then I was sent to Fort Worth in 1949 as a resident agent of the FBI, and remained there until I voluntarily retired on October 29, 1962.

Mr. STERN. Now, would you describe the relationship between the Fort Worth office and the Dallas office.

Mr. STERN. Well, the Dallas office is the headquarters city to which I was originally assigned and, of course, in that area distances are rather great between the cities, so we have what is known as resident agencies, there being at that time 10 agents in the Fort Worth office.

(At this point in the proceedings Mr. McCloy entered the hearing room.)

And we had agents, of course, at Lubbock and Amarillo and Wichita Falls, Sherman, Harris, and the other cities in order for economy reasons, to save travel. It would be a rather expensive operation to go from Dallas to those other areas.

Mr. STERN. Mr. Fain, did you specialize in any particular area of FBI work or were your assignments general?

Mr. FAIN. My assignments were comparatively general up until, I would say, about 1951, at which time I specialized mostly in security matters. Most of my investigations after 1951 were security-type investigations.

Mr. STERN. This is true----

Mr. FAIN. However, I did handle--excuse me, I did continue to handle--other types of investigations, too.

Mr. STERN. This is true until your retirement?

Mr. FAIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. STERN. Were you in charge of the investigation of Lee Harvey Oswald until the time of your retirement?

Mr. FAIN. Yes, sir; up until the time we closed the case--I don't recall the exact date, it can be verified from the report--but, I think we closed the case, following his interview on August 26.

Mr. STERN. Well to the extent----

Mr. FAIN. I want to correct that. It was August 14.

Mr. STERN. We will get to that, Mr. Fain. But to the extent the case was being investigated during your tenure, were you in charge of the case?

Mr. FAIN. Yes, sir; the case was assigned to me.

Mr. STERN. Fine. That is all I want right now.

Mr. FAIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. STERN. How many other cases on an average would you be in charge of during this period from 1960 until retirement?

Mr. FAIN. From 1960 until the time of retirement?

Mr. STERN. Yes.

Mr. FAIN. I don't have any exact figure on that, but I suppose I would have 45 to 50 cases.

Mr. STERN. At anytime?

Mr. FAIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. STERN. Mr. Fain, I show you a seven-page mimeographed report marked "Report of John W. Fain," dated May 12, 1960. Can you identify that report?

(Marked for identification No. 821.)

Mr. FAIN. Yes, sir; this is my report.

Mr. STERN. Were you responsible for preparing this entire report, Mr. Fain?

Mr. FAIN. Yes; I was.

Mr. STERN. Have you reviewed the report in preparation for your testimony today?

Mr. FAIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. STERN. Is the report correct?

Mr. FAIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. STERN. Is there anything you want to correct in the report?

Mr. FAIN. No, sir.

Mr. STERN. Is it complete in covering the events described?

Mr. FAIN. It is.

Mr. STERN. So that you have no additions or corrections?

Mr. FAIN. No additions or corrections.

Mr. STERN. Let me ask you, first, Mr. Fain, about a couple of symbols that appear on the first page of the report. The report is characterized as "Internal Security R." What does the "R" mean?

Mr. FAIN. It stands for "Russia."

Mr. STERN. At the end of the synopsis on the first page are the letters "RUC." Can you tell us what that means?

Mr. FAIN. That is a symbol to save typing and stenographic effort and so forth. It is known to all agents, and it means "Referred Upon Completion," "RUC," "Referred Upon Completion," to the office of origin actually. In other words, it indicates that the investigation there at that point where it was conducted has been completed and we are referring it back.

Mr. STERN. To an office which had prime responsibility?

Mr. FAIN. Yes, sir; in this case I suppose it was the Bureau in Washington. I see the Bureau file number up there at the top.

Mr. STERN. I see. Do you recall, Mr. Fain, how you were assigned to investigate this matter which is entitled in this report "Funds Transmitted to Resident of Russia"?

Mr. FAIN. Yes, sir.

We received a communication, or rather the Dallas office did, from Bureau to the effect that there was an indication that application had been made by Mrs. Oswald, Marguerite C. Oswald, for a draft, purchase transfer of funds, to be sent to Lee Harvey Oswald over in Russia, and I was given the assignment to contact her and find out all I could about the circumstances.

Mr. STERN. Concerning the transfer of funds?

Mr. FAIN. Yes, sir; you will notice that the title in this case is "Funds Transmitted to Residents of Russia," that was the type of inquiry.

Mr. STERN. To your recollection, had you ever before this time heard the name "Lee Harvey Oswald" or any other member of the Oswald family?

Mr. FAIN. Well, I believe--let's see, April 27, 1960, I talked to Robert Lee in an effort to locate his mother.

Mr. STERN. By this time, Mr. Fain, I mean the time covered by your report, not the date of the report.

Mr. FAIN. Just what I read in the newspapers about his having gone over into Russia. The papers played it up.

Mr. STERN. Did you have any official responsibility in connection with Lee Harvey Oswald before the time covered by this report?

Mr. FAIN. No, sir; no, I did not.

Mr. STERN. On page 2 of the report--is this a record of an interview that you held, Mr. Fain?

Mr. FAIN. It is. It is a record of the interview that I conducted.

Mr. STERN. Is this a form normally used for reporting interviews?

Mr. FAIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. STERN. What is your practice or what was your practice, while an FBI agent, in making interviews? Would you make notes of the interview as you interviewed a subject?

Mr. FAIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. STERN. Are you familiar with any shorthand method?

Mr. FAIN. I had a course in shorthand and, of course, still know some of the symbols and, at that time, did use it, mixed it up with my other English as I wrote it. I did use it.

Mr. STERN. Can you tell from this report when you made the interview?

Mr. FAIN. I interviewed Robert Lee Oswald, who was the brother, older brother, of Lee Harvey Oswald, the subject of this case, on April 27, 1960, at Fort Worth, Tex.

Mr. STERN. Can you tell the Commission where that appears from your report?

Mr. FAIN. The date of the interview?

(At this point in the proceedings, Representative Ford entered the hearing room.)

Mr. STERN. Yes.

Mr. FAIN. The date of the interview is located on the lower left-hand corner, and also the place of the interview.

Mr. STERN. When did you transcribe--or, first, how would you do that normally?

Mr. FAIN. Well, I dictated this on May 2, 1960. It evidently was transcribed by the stenographer, as noted, on the upper right-hand corner--this is a little dim--but it looks like May 6, 1960. This is a very old copy.

Mr. STERN. You would dictate this to a secretary, Mr. Fain?

Mr. FAIN. Some of it I dictated on the dictaphone, some of it I would do by rough draft and send by mail to Dallas, and if I happened to be in Dallas, I would dictate to the stenographer.

Mr. STERN. Would you ordinarily preserve your rough notes of the interview after you dictated your report?

Mr. FAIN. Not after it gets in this form, because this contains all the information in the notes we have. In other words, we put everything right in. Now this is supposed to be an exact transcript of the information. It is not a recording of the information. I don't mean to leave that impression.

Mr. STERN. And you would normally destroy your notes?

Mr. FAIN. Yes, sir; unless there was some--there would be no reason to keep my notes, once I put all the information I was assured was in here. Once that is true I destroyed them.

Mr. STERN. I think these reports largely speak for themselves, Mr. Fain, but I would like to ask you a few details to clarify statements in the report.

On page 3 in the report of your interview of Mrs. Marguerite Oswald, you say in the second line, "She volunteered for interview." What does that mean in this connection?

Mr. FAIN. You will notice that on the lower left-hand corner it indicates I talked to her on the 28th, April 28, which was the day after I talked to her son Robert Lee, and evidently he had gotten in touch with her on the same afternoon that I talked to him or that night. Anyway she knocked on the door the next day and wanted to talk to me; and she came in voluntarily. I believe Robert told me that he would get in touch with her. He gave me her address, at least, and I was going to send out a lead to have her interviewed down there, but she came in to talk to me, voluntarily.

Mr. STERN. Would you look at page 4 of your report, Mr. Fain, the fourth full paragraph from the top of the page, the paragraph that begins, "Mrs. Oswald stated," and the last sentence of that paragraph reads, "Mrs. Oswald stated that she would not have been surprised to learn that Lee had gone to, say, South America or Cuba, but that it had never entered her mind that he might go to Russia or might try to become a citizen there." As far as you can remember, is that accurately what she said?

Mr. FAIN. Yes; that is as she said, I put it down. She seemed very much upset that he had gone to Russia.

Mr. STERN. Did she explain that to you?

Mr. FAIN. None other than this. In other words, she said she wouldn't have been surprised that he had gone to, say, South America or Cuba, she was taken aback by learning he had gone to Russia. You see, he had told her he was going over to New Orleans to go to work over there, and she was apparently very surprised that he had taken this boat to Europe, to Russia.

Mr. STERN. Mr. Fain, in your report of your interview with Mrs. Marguerite Oswald, you quote several letters and refer to other specific bits of information. How did you get that so accurately?

Mr. FAIN. She had all of those in her purse. She had all those clippings that had appeared in the paper, and she had quite a stack of them there, and I got the information out of those at the time.

Mr. STERN. She displayed them to you and let you copy them?

Mr. FAIN. Yes, sir; she displayed them to me, that is right.

The CHAIRMAN. Gentlemen, are there any other questions any of you would like to ask Mr. Fain? He has stated that everything he knows concerning this matter is contained in his written report.

Mr. FAIN. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Representative FORD. May I ask a question?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes, indeed.

Representative FORD. Is it the practice of the Bureau to check with relatives of those who defect or make an attempt to defect to the Soviet Union?

Mr. FAIN. Well, I was--my primary motive here was--trying to locate her. I wanted to talk to her. If I had been able to talk to her, the mother, I probably wouldn't have contacted Robert. But he was the only one that I could locate there that knew anything about it, about where she might be, so I, in the course of things, interviewed him to try to find out what I could find out from him.

Representative FORD. I am more concerned about the overall policy. Whenever an individual makes an attempt to defect or does defect, is it the policy of the FBI to subsequently interview relatives of the individual who tried or did defect?

Mr. FAIN. Mr. Ford, I am unable to answer that because I am not versed in overall policy, and I am sorry. I am not trying to avoid your question, but I just actually don't know.

Representative FORM. What prompted you then in your capacity to interview----

Mr. FAIN. Robert?

Representative FORD. Either Robert or Mrs. Oswald?

Mr. FAIN. Well, I was instructed to get in touch with her and find out what the situation was. The only way I could get the information was to talk to her, and I talked to Robert only in connection with my attempts to locate her.

Representative FORD. But your instructions came from whom?

Mr. FAIN. I don't have the memorandum or communication that came in here in connection with this, but it came from the Bureau, I am sure, through the Dallas office.

Representative FORD. And you were working out of Dallas?

Mr. FAIN. Right. My supervisor over in Dallas, no doubt, either called me or else very likely he wrote an assignment and mailed it to me in Fort Worth.

Representative FORD. Your assignment was really to check with the mother, both, or all?

Mr. FAIN. Actually, I don't recall how the assignment was worded, I really don't. I haven't seen it for over a year and a half, and I just don't recall exactly how that came.

Representative FORD. But the only reason for such an interview was the fact that the son had gone to Russia and either defected or attempted to do so; was that the basis of the investigation?

Mr. FAIN. Yes, sir. We wanted to find out the circumstances and about these funds and any information we could ascertain and, of course, it is always important in this type of case to find out whether or not any of these--especially intelligence agents or anyone like that might contact these people and try to get information from them. We try to get these people to let us know if anything like that happens.

Representative FORD. That was really the purpose of the interview or investigation you conducted?

Mr. FAIN. Let me see if I can find out. In this paragraph 4 there is an indication----

Representative FORD. Paragraph 4 on what page?