Part 54

Mr. STERN. Was that a built-up area with high buildings or were you still in the suburbs?

Mr. LAWSON. No; that was a suburban-type of area, a shopping center-type of area out away from the downtown area.

Mr. STERN. I think perhaps now you could tell us what you observed and what transpired from the time your car turned into Houston Street off of Main.

Mr. LAWSON. As I have said previously today, right around that corner I gave this radio broadcast that we were 5 minutes away.

Mr. STERN. Was this while you were on Houston or had you turned?

Mr. LAWSON. We had turned the corner. We were either at the corner, I believe we were just about at the corner when I asked the question if I shouldn't give about a 5-minute signal now so we must have been around the corner then when I actually finished broadcasting. It doesn't take long.

Mr. STERN. Around the Houston-Elm corner?

Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir; right in front of the Book Depository Building, and then a little ways away from that probably by the time I had finished broadcasting.

I noticed a few people along the right-hand side I can recall now, and more people on the right-hand side than out in the center strip median which is there, a grassy center strip. There weren't many people on the left at all.

I recall thinking we are coming to an overpass now, so I glanced up to see if it was clear, the way most of them had been, the way all of them had been up until that time on the way downtown, and it was not. There was a small group, between 5 and 10 that looked like workmen. I got the impression, whether it was wrong or not I don't know, that they were railroad workers. They had that type of dress on.

And I was looking for the officer who should have been there, had been requested to be there, and I noticed him just a little bit later, that he was there, and I made a kind of motion through the windshield trying to get his attention to move the people from over our path the way it should have been.

But to my knowledge I never got his attention, and I have said in one of these statements that we were under the bridge, and I have said in another one that we were just approaching this overpass when I heard the shot. I really do not know which one is so, because it was so close, but we were about at the bridge when I heard the first report.

Mr. STERN. Now just to finish up with the people on the overpass, were they in a crowd together, or spread out?

Mr. LAWSON. They were spread out 1 or 2 deep, and as I say, between 5 and 10 of them to my knowledge, and I noticed the police officer standing behind them about in the middle of the group.

Mr. STERN. And as far as you can remember now, in a position to observe all of them? Were they in close enough a group?

Mr. LAWSON. Oh, yes; observed them from the back.

Mr. STERN. Observed them from the back. Did you notice any unusual movement?

Mr. LAWSON. I did not.

Mr. STERN. Did you know whether the policeman saw your signal or acknowledged it?

Mr. LAWSON. I didn't have any acknowledgment of it, and I don't know if he saw the signal or not. At least the people didn't move, They still stayed there in the middle.

Mr. STERN. Were you able to see the sides of the overpass, apart from the area directly over the lane you were traveling in? Could you observe more?

Mr. LAWSON. I am sure I could have, but I can only recall the people. My immediate problem was right up there on the bridge, and I was concentrating right there. I don't recall anything on either side of the embankments.

Mr. STERN. Or any people?

Mr. LAWSON. No, sir; I do not recall any.

Mr. STERN. Just this group?

Mr. LAWSON. This group up on the bridge.

Mr. DULLES. Could I ask one question there. I think you testified just now that your car was very close to the overpass.

Mr. LAWSON. I believe it was.

Mr. DULLES. And yet your car was only--well, how many feet ahead of the President's car was your car at that time, roughly?

Mr. LAWSON. I am not sure because I wasn't looking back right at that time at the President's car. I was looking at the bridge because of the people up on the bridge.

Mr. DULLES. What was the normal distance?

Mr. LAWSON. I think it was a little further ahead than it had been in the motorcade, because when I looked back we were further ahead.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. STERN. Then what happened?

Mr. LAWSON. I heard this very loud report which at first, flashing through my mind did not say rifle shot to me. It sounded different than a rifle shot. It sounded louder and more of a bang rather than a crack.

My first impression was firecracker or bomb or something like that. I can recall spinning around and looking back, and seeing people over on the grassy median area kind of running around and dropping down, which would be this area in here.

Mr. DULLES. I might just add the witness is now referring to an aerial photograph.

Mr. STERN. Indicating the area between Elm Street and Main Street, the grassy area between the two streets.

Did you observe anything on the grass strip to the right of Elm Street?

Mr. LAWSON. No; I didn't, and it is my impression that my car was in this direction, so that when I looked back, that is why I saw this particular area here and not things over here that we had actually, see, started this curve so that when I looked back I was looking this way.

Mr. STERN. You were looking to the grass strip?

Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. STERN. In between Elm and Main and not to the grass strip across Elm Street?

Mr. LAWSON. That is correct.

Mr. STERN. North of Elm Street.

Mr. DULLES. The curve you referred to is the curve to the right.

Mr. LAWSON. It curves to the right just as it starts at the underpass, and continues to the right.

Representative FORD. Why did you look back? Is that the direction of sound?

Mr. LAWSON. The direction of the sound and the direction of the President.

Representative FORD. Are you sure that the sound you heard came from the rear and not from the front?

Mr. LAWSON. I am positive that it came from the rear, and then I spun back that way to see what had occurred back there.

Mr. DULLES. Could you tell at all whether the sound came from above you?

Mr. LAWSON. No; I could not. It was quite a general loud bang, an echoing-type bang.

Representative FORD. At the time of the sound you were within 15 or 20 feet of the overpass approximately?

Mr. LAWSON. I was quite close to the overpass, yes, sir; but I don't know exactly how close.

Representative FORD. You are sure that the sound didn't come from the overpass?

Mr. LAWSON. I am in my own mind that it didn't. It came from behind me. Then I heard two more sharp reports, the second two were closer together than the first. There was one report, and a pause, then two more reports closer together, two and three were closer together than one and two.

Mr. STERN. What else did you observe when you looked back?

Representative FORD. May I ask a question here. Had you turned around by the time the second and third shots had been fired?

Mr. LAWSON. Yes; I had.

Representative FORD. Did you get an impression from where they came?

Mr. LAWSON. Again just behind me is the only impression I got, but in relation to behind me, where I do not know.

Representative FORD. Certainly not in front of you?

Mr. LAWSON. No.

Mr. STERN. You were in a closed car?

Mr. LAWSON. Yes; I was. The windows were open.

Mr. STERN. And you were on the right-hand side in the front?

Mr. LAWSON. The right-hand side; yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. Could you see the President's car when you looked back?

Mr. LAWSON. Not that first time. As I looked back I looked right straight and saw the grassy median. Then the second and third shots, reports, I noticed the President's car back there, but I also noticed right after the reports an agent standing up with an automatic weapon in his hand, and the first thing that flashed through my mind, this was the only weapon I had seen, was that he had fired because this was the only weapon I had seen up to that time.

The events after that are a little bit jumbled, but I recall seeing Agent Hill on the rear of the President's car receiving a radio message that we should proceed to the nearest hospital. The nearest hospital was a continuation of our route.

Mr. STERN. Did you know that or were you told that?

Mr. LAWSON. I knew that. Let me make a correction. I don't know if it was the nearest hospital, but I knew that it would be the fastest one that we could get to under the circumstances of where we were going under this freeway.

Mr. STERN. Did you know as part of your preparation or did you merely observe it in the arrangements you were making?

Mr. LAWSON. I had observed this from all the times I had passed the hospital going over the route; yes, sir.

Mr. STERN. But it is not ordinarily a part of your advance work, or is it, to locate hospitals?

Mr. LAWSON. This is not a part of our report, but quite often in my own report in other times I have listed hospitals and so forth, bed facilities in some of my other reports. I did not in this case, but I had noted this hospital.

Mr. STERN. But it is something you pay attention to yourself?

Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir; it is. Again we depend upon the police knowing the city even better naturally than the advance agent to get us to a hospital depending where we are or anything like that, that would occur.

Mr. DULLES. What was the lead car doing at this time?

Mr. LAWSON. The car that I was in, sir?

Mr. DULLES. I thought you were in the second car.

Mr. STERN. The pilot car.

Mr. DULLES. The pilot car, not the lead car.

Mr. LAWSON. The pilot car was up ahead of us, so appeared other things I recall noting a police officer pulled up in a motorcycle alongside of us, and mentioned that the President had been hit.

When the Presidential car leaped ahead, although there was quite a distance, not quite a distance but there was some distance between the two cars, they came up on us quite fast before we were actually able to get in motion. They seemed to have a more rapid acceleration than we did.

Mr. DULLES. Did they actually pass you?

Mr. LAWSON. No, sir; they never did. We stayed ahead of them. The route was clear to the Trade Mart anyway, which was part of the route that we used to get to the hospital.

And then from the Trade Mart on, the route was going to be policed after we arrived at the Trade Mart, so that on the route from the Trade Mart to the Parkland Hospital, which isn't very far, we had to do some stopping of cars and holding our hands out the windows and blowing the sirens and the horns to get through, but we made it in pretty good time.

I also asked Chief Curry to notify, to have the hospital notified that we were on the way. I heard Chief Curry broadcast to some units to converge on the area of the incident down by where it happened. I don't recall how he phrased it, so that they would know to go to the Texas Book Depository area. He told them to converge on a certain area, and that is what it turned out to be.

When we arrived at the hospital, as our car pulled up and was still moving, I jumped out and a couple of the motorcycle policemen that had arrived there ahead of us, I asked them to keep any crowd back, any press people back, etc., as I went running in the building.

I was looking for the stretchers that might be coming our way, and didn't notice any at first until I looked quite a ways down the corridor and saw two stretchers being pushed my way, and I ran down, turned around, put one hand on each one and then as they pushed and I pulled, we ran outside.

The stretchers had to be placed in tandem because of the ambulance area and Governor Connally being ahead of President Kennedy was placed on the first one and taken immediately away. President Kennedy was placed on the second one by myself and some other individuals, and we went into the emergency room area and were shown into a particular emergency room.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. STERN. Mr. Lawson, your memorandum is quite complete on the events from arrival at the hospital to your return to Love Field. If there is anything you would like to add to that, please do so, or to anything you have told us from the departure from Love Field to the arrival at Parkland Hospital.

Mr. LAWSON. I can't recall anything.

Mr. STERN. I would like then to cover with you just a few points on your opportunities to observe Lee Harvey Oswald following his arrest. As I understand it, you returned to the Dallas Police Headquarters with Chief Curry and other police officials after he was informed that a suspect has been arrested, and arrived at the police headquarters somewhere between 3:30 and 3:45; is that correct?

Mr. LAWSON. I believe the Presidential plane took off at 2:40 something, 2:47, so that I didn't leave Love Field until after that. It was probably at least 10 minutes after that that we left.

We made certain that the agents had all arrived back from the various places that they were to return to Washington, and that the White House staff, none of them had been left any place, and that the Air Force II was going to pick up any stragglers. The press was going to depart on a press plane, and so forth, so it was probably a little after 3 o'clock before we left.

I recall that it was very bad traffic in the downtown area. We were bumper to bumper and didn't move a few times because apparently the chief thought everybody was converging on the downtown area to see this, plus all the people who had been there when it happened and just stayed there. I arrived sometime quite late.

Mr. DULLES. You were still with Chief Curry?

Mr. LAWSON. I was. I was told by Chief Rowley rather than to come back to remain in Dallas. It was quite late in the afternoon we arrived at police headquarters.

Mr. STERN. What were the conditions at police headquarters when you arrived?

Mr. LAWSON. Quite a bit was happening. I got the impression they had squads of detectives doing all kinds of things, people working on the Presidential assassination, people working on the Tippit killing. I know that they had squads of men going out doing various things and coming back, and it was quite hard just to keep abreast of things that were breaking as to what each group was finding out as it was happening, and quite often we were way behind.

Mr. STERN. What about the appearance of the press and television reporters and cameramen at that time?

Mr. LAWSON. At least by 6 or 7 o'clock they were quite in evidence up and down the corridors, cameras on the tripods, the sound equipment, people with still cameras, motion picture-type hand cameras, all kinds of people with tape recorders, and they were trying to interview people, anybody that belonged in police headquarters that might know anything about Oswald----

Mr. STERN. Can you estimate how many reporters?

Mr. LAWSON. There were quite a few. The corridors, up and down the corridors towards the chief's office to the right of the elevator, around the elevator landing and down the corridors to the left of the elevator towards the homicide area were quite packed. You had to literally fight your way through the people to get up and down the corridor.

Representative FORD. Did you stay with Chief Curry most of the time?

Mr. LAWSON. No, sir; I was in various rooms and with various people for the rest of the evening. I saw Chief Curry quite often that evening.

Mr. DULLES. Who was in command at that time of the Secret Service detachment in giving the orders and coordinating the Secret Service men?

Mr. LAWSON. Sorrels. My advance as such, was over, and I was just another Secret Service agent.

Mr. DULLES. He was in command?

Mr. LAWSON. Sorrels would be in command of any Secret Service activity.

Mr. DULLES. Subject of course to orders from Washington; I realize that.

Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir; and we understood that Inspector Kelley, on one of our frequent phone conversations with Washington, we were told that Inspector Kelley, one of our inspectors, was being sent out to coordinate the Secret Service investigation and to be the overall commander of the Secret Service out there, and he did arrive at approximately 11 o'clock that evening and was met by an agent.

Mr. DULLES. Does the Secret Service have a facility for commandeering, getting airplanes when it needs them fast?

Mr. LAWSON. In certain instances, sir, I believe we use the Air Force and the MATS people for advance trips, or if the Presidential airplanes are full and they still need agents to go some place, why they will put on another airplane for us. Sometimes we use Air Force transportation, sometimes commercial.

Mr. DULLES. You have adequate facilities, have you, to get around in time of emergency like this, quickly?

Mr. LAWSON. I wouldn't be in a position to answer that, sir.

Mr. DULLES. Chief Rowley would probably be the one.

Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. STERN. When did you first observe Lee Harvey Oswald, Mr. Lawson?

Mr. LAWSON. It was early in the evening of November 22. He had been in police headquarters for a little while at least before I first saw him, and they had already interrogated him as I understand it, and various detectives, police officials, and Mr. Sorrels and a couple other agents and myself saw Lee Harvey Oswald when he was brought in for Mr. Sorrels to talk to at Mr. Sorrels' request.

Mr. STERN. Did you interrogate him?

Mr. LAWSON. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. STERN. Did Mr. Sorrels handle the interrogation alone?

Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir; that particular one.

Mr. STERN. What were the questions and answers as best you can recall?

Mr. LAWSON. He asked information as to name.

Mr. DULLES. Who is "he" now?

Mr. LAWSON. Mr. Sorrels in asking the questions already had some background on Mr. Oswald before he started questioning Mr. Oswald. The detectives or other individuals had told them what they knew up to this point about Oswald, his name, that he had been out of the country previous to this time to Russia, and a few other things. It was known at the particular time, perhaps 6 or 7 o'clock.

Mr. STERN. I take it you had phoned his name to your headquarters in Washington as soon as you knew Oswald's name?

Mr. LAWSON. I didn't. Perhaps Mr. Sorrels did.

Mr. STERN. Did your office advise you whether they knew anything about Oswald or had found out anything about Oswald?

Mr. LAWSON. Not me personally.

Mr. STERN. That you know of?

Mr. LAWSON. Not me personally.

Mr. STERN. Were any other questions asked?

Mr. LAWSON. Yes; I recall Mr. Sorrels asking if he had been out--where he had been living, where he had been employed over the last years, and other information Mr. Sorrels already knew about.

Representative FORD. What was his attitude? What was the attitude of Oswald during this period?

Mr. LAWSON. Oswald just answered the questions as asked to him. He didn't volunteer any information. He sat there quite stoically, not much of an expression on his face.

Mr. DULLES. Quite what?

Mr. LAWSON. Stoically.

Mr. DULLES. Stoical?

Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. Was he belligerent?

Mr. LAWSON. No, sir; he didn't seem to be belligerent at all.

Representative FORD. Did he resent the interrogation?

Mr. LAWSON. I didn't get the impression that it was a great resentment. He just answered the questions as they were asked of him.

Mr. DULLES. Did he answer all the questions?

Mr. LAWSON. I believe he did.

Mr. DULLES. These were questions that Mr. Sorrels put to him?

Mr. LAWSON. Yes; of course, Mr. Sorrels, I don't believe at that time, as I remember it, didn't ask him everything that we knew about him.

Representative FORD. Was there a transcript kept of this interrogation?

Mr. LAWSON. I don't know.

Mr. STERN. Do you recall any other questions that were asked?

Mr. LAWSON. I don't. At this time they were just general-type questions.

Mr. STERN. What was his physical condition?

Mr. DULLES. Could I ask one question there? The question wasn't asked him at this time, at least while you were present, whether he was or was not guilty of the attack on the President?

Mr. LAWSON. This I do not recall. During this I recall I was called out for a phone call a couple of times. We were given information from Mr. Max Phillips, who was in our PRS section, and I believe it was during this that someone, an agent, was wanted on the phone, and I went out and answered this, and they gave us some information on people that it might have been--a case that wasn't Oswald.

Mr. STERN. What was his physical condition?

Mr. LAWSON. He was quite, well, unkempt looking, and I recall that he had a few bruises on his face.

Mr. STERN. A few bruises?

Mr. LAWSON. I believe over an eye, a bruise or two. I can recall that he had a bruise over an eye or on a cheekbone, or someplace on his face, in looking back. And had a shirt and a pair of pants on. He wasn't very tidy looking, a little unkempt in his appearance.

Mr. STERN. Was he handcuffed, do you recall?

Mr. LAWSON. I don't recall. I know I saw him handcuffed around police headquarters quite a bit, but during this interrogation I don't remember if he was handcuffed or not.

Representative FORD. How long did this interrogation go on?

Mr. LAWSON. This was not long.

Representative FORD. Five minutes?

Mr. LAWSON. Five to ten minutes at the most; yes, sir.

Mr. STERN. Then what happened? Did Mr. Sorrels finish?

Mr. DULLES. May I ask one other question there? Was there an interrogation just conducted by Mr. Sorrels, or were there others in on it, the police or the FBI?

Mr. LAWSON. I don't know if there were FBI agents there. There were other plainclothesmen there, and a few uniformed officers.

Mr. DULLES. Mr. Sorrels conducted the investigation?

Mr. LAWSON. Mr. Sorrels was asking these particular questions, general-type questions, and when he finished the police took him back to another area.

Mr. STERN. When did you next see Oswald?

Mr. LAWSON. I recall seeing him in another room in homicide headquarters with a couple of plainclothes people and their talking to him. I saw him later in the evening, perhaps 9:30, 10 o'clock, when he was brought down to a showup room, because we had information that a gentleman had seen someone at a window, and so--

Mr. STERN. Do you know who that was, the witness?

Mr. LAWSON. I do not know; no, sir.

Mr. STERN. Could it have been someone named Brennan?

Mr. LAWSON. The name doesn't mean anything to me. Mr. Sorrels had sent an agent out to bring him down to police headquarters to talk to him, and he informed us he had seen someone in the window, but he had also seen Lee Oswald on television in the meantime, and he didn't know of how much value he would be.

Mr. STERN. Did he say anything about whether he thought----

Mr. LAWSON. He could not say yes or no, whether Oswald was the individual or not.

Mr. STERN. Did you notice any irregularity in the way the showup was conducted?

Mr. LAWSON. No, sir.

Mr. STERN. Did it seem like a normal one to you, the size of the people?

Mr. LAWSON. I didn't notice any irregularity.

Mr. STERN. And their dress?

Representative FORD. Had Oswald had any additional physical damage done?

Mr. LAWSON. No, sir.

Representative FORD. The last time you saw him?

Mr. LAWSON. No; he had not. That was not the last time I saw him, however. Then I later, approximately 11:30, or around midnight, it was announced that there would be a press conference again down in the showup room, and Inspector Kelley had arrived by that time, not too long before that, and Inspector Kelley and I and another agent or two went down to this press conference where it was just completely packed. Everyone couldn't get in the room, the cameramen, reporters, broadcasters, and so forth. Upon a signal----

Mr. DULLES. Who conducted that meeting?

Mr. LAWSON. I believe it was the assistant district attorney and Chief Curry and perhaps Captain Fritz. We were just there watching.