Part 52

Mr. DULLES. No, I mean apart from that, apart from the crowd situation do you recall that any orders were given by or on behalf of the President with regard to the location of those motorcycles that were particularly attached to his car?

Mr. LAWSON. Not specifically at this instance orders from him. Just what I know to be the case from other advances, that unless it is necessary, it was my understanding that he did not like a lot of motorcycles surrounding the car. That is why we had four just back of the President's car, so that they could come up and intercept anyone running out from the sides easily, or we could call the other motorcycles back to him if we had to.

But if there are a lot of motorcycles around the President's car, I know for a fact that he can't hear the people that are with him in the car talking back and forth, and there were other considerations I believe why he did not want them completely surrounding his car.

Mr. STERN. Can you summarize for us briefly the security arrangements at Love Field?

Mr. DULLES. Could I ask one question about the car before we get to Love Field. There has been testimony here that the back seat, the seat in which the President and Mrs. Kennedy had sat, could be raised or lowered I believe by the President himself, could be raised so he could get a better view of the surrounding people, and then it could be lowered and put in a normal position. Do you know anything about that or how that mechanism worked and who worked it?

Mr. LAWSON. No, sir; I am not familiar with his car except for the fact that I know that you can raise or lower the seat. Now whether that is done by him or in the front seat, we do have people that would be competent to tell you that, however.

Mr. DULLES. You don't know whether that seat was raised at this particular time?

Mr. LAWSON. No, sir.

Mr. DULLES. As the car went----

Mr. LAWSON. I don't believe it would have been starting out.

Mr. DULLES. I was talking about it at the time of the shooting.

Mr. LAWSON. No, sir; I have no idea.

Mr. STERN. Could you now just very briefly and generally summarize the security arrangements at Love Field and your participation in them. Were they under your control and supervision?

Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir; they were under my control and supervision. We held our police meeting at the airport last because of problems involved in finding an area big enough for his motorcade to start and the planes to park and so forth. This was not actually resolved until the day before he arrived, and that is why the police meeting was held at that point quite late. But arrangements were made to have the general public contained behind a chain link fence which is there anyway, and any overflow general public to be in a parking lot a little ways further away from the President, if there was not enough room behind this chain link fence. Police were along both of these fences to keep the people in their place.

There were two service roads which came in between these two general public areas. We closed off one and used the other because it was the only service road that most of the wings from the Dallas Air Terminal were able to use, catering trucks going together, airplanes, mechanics and people being ferried, crews being ferried and so forth so we couldn't cut it off directly.

However, these roads were to be shut off when his plane touched down, and kept shut off until after his motorcade departed inward, and then they were to be used again while we were gone and then just before we returned to the airport they were to be shut off again.

Mr. STERN. What about police on buildings?

Mr. LAWSON. Police were requested on the wing of the air terminal that came out closest to where he would stop, and police were requested to be on the air cargo building to the rear of this crowd area, which is a little higher than the small building, the customs building. Any policeman on the air cargo building would be able to control anybody on the roof at the customs building.

Mr. STERN. Were these police stationed to watch the crowd, to watch persons who might be on the roofs of these buildings, to watch persons who might be in these buildings? What was their function?

Mr. LAWSON. The police on the building tops were to make sure that no unauthorized people were on the building tops, and to watch generally anything else that they could watch, that they were keeping their building top clear. And there were police along the fences to watch the crowd and to keep the people from coming onto the field who were not supposed to. There were detectives to be assigned throughout the crowd, to mingle with the crowd so that the people in the crowd would not know they were detectives.

Mr. STERN. Was there any particular check of offices inside the buildings which might present a vantage point overlooking the place where the President was to land and be received?

Mr. LAWSON. No, sir.

Mr. STERN. Were there such overlooking places?

Mr. LAWSON. There wouldn't have been except in a certain wing way up to the right of where he landed, quite a ways away.

There wasn't any building directly in front on the side where he would come off the plane and walk down. There would be a building to his right at the very end of a wing that came out, and there was police on that. The crowd behind the fences would go over to the customs building, and no one would be able to see out of this one-story customs building. And behind that was the air cargo building where a policeman was requested on top. The police were then also requested all the way along our exit route along the parking lots and the runways as we went out of the airport and the motorcycle escort vehicles were waiting down closer to where we made our exit, again because of the room factor.

Mr. STERN. Did you confer with Air Force representatives who had responsibility for the President's plane and the Vice President's plane?

Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir. I learned that they had been in for a general meeting of their own the morning of the 13th that I had not been aware of, but because of the Presidential trips the week before he came to Dallas, he went to Maryland and he went to New York and he went to a couple places in Florida, they were not able to send someone out to help with setting up the airport as soon as was usual.

And because of a personal problem, the one that was to arrive on Wednesday morning, didn't arrive until Wednesday evening. I was quite certain that the area that we were being provided by the local airport was not going to be sufficient for our motorcade formation, the parking of three jet planes and so forth. But being a layman, I couldn't really impress them that this was so. But when the Air Force people did come in, they agreed that as set up it would not work, and Mr. Sorrels and the assistant airport director were able to get some extra space from a couple of companies nearby there, and it was able to be worked out, still really not enough room but it was adequate.

Mr. STERN. Ultimate responsibility for determining those arrangements--whether those arrangements are adequate is with the Air Force, is that right?

Mr. LAWSON. I don't really believe I understand your question. Would you make it again please?

Mr. STERN. You were concerned that the arrangements were not adequate.

Mr. LAWSON. Yes.

Mr. STERN. But you had to have the Air Force recommendation to straighten things out with the local authorities?

Mr. LAWSON. Well, I know the size of the planes because I have the dimensions of them that I take with me on a trip, and other things, and also from past experience. However, they make measurements and they know their own FAA rules, Air Force rules as to how close you can park jet planes to one another, what the turning radiuses are and so forth, so I was certain that the room that we had been provided wasn't enough, but I was also quite certain that when the Air Force got there, they would bear me out, which was true.

Mr. STERN. If the Air Force is satisfied with the arrangements though, is that the end of it?

Mr. LAWSON. Only for certain things. They would say if they definitely had enough room to park, how they would be parked, how they would come in, how they would go out and so forth. But again final security responsibility would be up to us. If it is an area where you can't possibly fit the press area in, the motorcade can't line up, the people can't come out without creating a lot of confusion so that you can't tell what is going on, then it delves into security, because the more confusion you have the worse off you are security-wise.

Mr. STERN. I think we might touch briefly on press arrangements. Will you tell us, if you know, how the final arrangements for the President's visit were announced, and particularly the motorcade route.

Mr. LAWSON. I know from reading in the paper how it was announced but I do not know who announced it. I believe it appeared in the Tuesday morning paper. That would have been the 19th I believe. There was quite a bit of speculation before that perhaps the motorcade would go here and perhaps the motorcade would go there, but I believe that the one that was finally used was put in the paper on Tuesday morning, the 19th from my recollection. Let me make sure that Tuesday is the 19th.

Mr. STERN. It is the 19th. Had there been a meeting on the 18th at which this was considered?

Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir; there was a meeting late in the afternoon of the 18th, in a private club in Dallas that I arrived at late. The meeting was called primarily as I understand it because of the various political groups that wanted certain things, and what Washington wanted, and there were various problems to work out as to who got tickets, who sat at the head table, who rode in what cars and so forth. And the local host committee had designated a certain individual to be their representative there, and then these other groups also had people represented. Mr. Puterbaugh, for example, the liaison man that went with me from Washington, was there. And I had just come from going over the route with the police earlier that afternoon, and I told them as a point of information that this was the route as we had it now, unless it was changed later.

Representative FORD. The following morning----

Mr. LAWSON. The following morning.

Representative FORD. It was announced in the newspapers?

Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. It was Tuesday morning, isn't it the 19th.

Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir; Tuesday morning.

Mr. STERN. Is this a normal amount of advance publicity for this kind of motorcade, regarding the actual route?

Mr. LAWSON. Well, it depends on how much notice you have that the President is going there. It was announced this morning that he is taking a trip tomorrow on Appalachian poverty, so we sent agents out this morning. Naturally even if they wanted to publicize the motorcade route they wouldn't be able to do so in this instance. But on other occasions it had been announced sooner than that or about as soon in various areas; yes, sir.

Mr. STERN. Did you set up the areas at which the press would be located at Love Field and at the Trade Mart?

Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir; I did, with the approval of Mr. Hawkes from the White House staff, when he made a trip a little bit later. Time was of the essence. Sometimes we do it all when they do not send out someone to represent the press office from the White House, and sometimes they do it. In this case, because telephone lines, power lines, various engineering data would have to be disseminated and fixed up, we had to know where the press areas were going to be before Mr. Hawkes was able to come.

So I told them that I would set it up in the belief that I knew what they usually wanted from the White House press office, but that he would have the power to overrule me, and I requested assistance of a local TV technician as to the angles and what not that the cameramen would like.

Mr. DULLES. May I ask one question there. Do you know whether any consideration is now being given to withhold the announcement of the actual route to be followed by the Presidential party until say the morning that the trip is actually taken?

Mr. LAWSON. Does this go into the realm of what we were talking about before as to what we are going to do in the future?

Mr. SMITH. It might. Do you suppose, sir, that that is one of the things that----

Mr. DULLES. One has to do it in time so that those who want it could get it, but it seems to me that say if the party was going to move here about noon, now if the morning papers gave that that would give people plenty of time to get to the positions they wanted, but wouldn't give a prospective assassin very much time to prepare.

Mr. SMITH. Sir, I don't know what the answer to that question is, but the question arises as to whether this isn't in that area where, you know, we are sort of deferring because of the sensitive nature of it. I don't really know what the answer is, and I don't know whether it is sensitive or not. Apparently Mr. Lawson thinks that it might be.

Mr. LAWSON. No, just from your previous things, I can give you an off-the-record answer and you can tell me if it is.

Representative FORD. Why don't we make the same arrangement on this as we had on the previous. Why don't you state for the record what you know and then we will have the same arrangement in this case as we had in the other.

Mr. SMITH. Sir, I don't want to quibble but that was sort of an after the fact arrangement in the sense that that it came out in the testimony there after the fact. I was a little bit concerned about it.

I am not sure we would want to make this arrangement on questions and then reserving on the handling of them, because that isn't completely in accord with what I understand to be the present arrangement with the Chief Justice.

Representative FORD. I suggest we do it this way then. Mr. Lawson now shouldn't answer but I suggest that Mr. Stern in the questions that are being prepared, for which answers will be given, that this question be included.

Mr. DULLES. That is entirely satisfactory to me.

Mr. SMITH. I am sure you are aware we have no desire to withhold any information whatsoever. It is just a question of procedure here.

Representative FORD. This question is among those that are to be asked in this interrogatory. Then the issue can be raised at that time.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. STERN. Mr. Chairman, if you have questions to ask, or Mr. Dulles, about the advance preparation up to the time of November 22, I think this would be an appropriate time to cover it.

Representative FORD. Do you have any, Mr. Dulles?

Mr. DULLES. I don't think of any at the moment; no. It has been very well covered.

Representative FORD. Mr. Lawson. I would like to clear up in my own mind some details. You were notified November 4 that you had this assignment for the Dallas trip.

Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. Who actually notified you?

Mr. LAWSON. Mr. Boring called me. He is assistant agent in charge of the White House detail, one of two.

Representative FORD. That was November 4?

Mr. LAWSON. November 4; yes, sir.

Representative FORD. Do you recall the time of day?

Mr. LAWSON. I believe it was late in the afternoon.

Representative FORD. What did you do next after being notified?

Mr. LAWSON. He told me that there wouldn't be any information available of any consequence until about the 8th. So I still had my regular duties and I was working.

Representative FORD. What was the first thing you did officially in reference to the Dallas trip?

Mr. LAWSON. I went to Mr. Behn's office and called to Mr. Kellerman on the 8th of November, and got the information that they had up to that time, the proposed itinerary for the Texas trip, the time my airplane left, the name of some contacts and so forth, and then after that, went to the Protective Research Section, picked up this paraphernalia, called the Dallas office that I was coming, and so forth.

Mr. DULLES. Were you advised that this information should be kept secret or is that just understood, when you were first given the information about your assignments? That was kept entirely secret?

Mr. LAWSON. Well, I wasn't advised that it should be kept secret.

Mr. DULLES. But you never would give out this information.

Mr. LAWSON. No, sir.

Mr. DULLES. Until it is actually published.

Mr. LAWSON. That is right. I believe it was published before that though, however, anyway.

Mr. DULLES. It was published that the President was going to Texas before you went?

Mr. LAWSON. That is my recollection, but it is in the newspapers.

Mr. DULLES. Do you remember the date of that? Don't delay on this account. Go right ahead.

Representative FORD. Approximately how many such trips had you handled prior to this one?

Mr. LAWSON. I had assisted on some with a more experienced agent, and I had had a few of my own responsibility with people assisting me. I had assisted in Berlin.

Representative FORD. Will you speak a little louder please?

Mr. LAWSON. I had assisted in West Berlin in June. I had assisted in Cincinnati on one of the congressional campaign trips in October before they discontinued because of Cuba. I assisted in Albuquerque, N. Mex., on one of his AEC trips. My responsibility, where I had the responsibility myself, had been Cherry Point, N.C.; Billings, Mont.; Little Rock, Ark.

The Billings one was in September of 1963, and the Little Rock stop was in October, the month before the assassination. Those were my two responsibilities. I assisted in San Diego. That was my first assist. Then I have had other assists and responsibilities here in Washington, fund-raising dinners or speeches, lunches.

Representative FORD. I gather then you had the principal responsibility in five?

Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. Or thereabouts?

Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. In each of those cases was the procedure the same as far as PRS is concerned?

Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. You would go to the PRS and get a list of the names of individuals and this other equipment?

Mr. LAWSON. That is correct.

Representative FORD. Now in the five or thereabout times that you did this in the past, what was your experience with PRS?

Mr. LAWSON. I was told in Buffalo, N.Y., of a couple individuals, a couple of nuisance-type individuals more than actual threats. Also told that there were a couple of individuals that came up after I had left Washington on the Little Rock advance. Subsequent to the time that I left, they notified the field office that things were under investigation.

Representative FORD. But only in the one instance, Buffalo, were you actually given the names of a threat, prior to your departure?

Mr. LAWSON. Yes; I believe that is so. The other ones were subsequent to that time.

Representative FORD. And in the case of Little Rock you subsequently received----

Mr. LAWSON. Yes.

Representative FORD. A name or names?

Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir; and also in Buffalo there were some phone calls to the office that there was a threat involved.

Representative FORD. In the case of Buffalo you had a name or two before you went?

Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. But in the other cases where you had the responsibility?

Mr. LAWSON. Nothing.

Representative FORD. The PRS gave you nothing?

Mr. LAWSON. That is right.

Representative FORD. Do you know from your own knowledge, conversation with others who have similar responsibilities, whether PRS normally had names to give to the agent in charge?

Mr. LAWSON. Yes; there have been occasions when that has happened, and they are constantly sending over things in Washington, for example. If we are just going out to the Sheraton for a dinner, you always call up and say is there anything particular right now that we should know about, a recent escapee or anything like that that we might not know of yet. They put out lookout notices, send us a notification of people who have lost their White House passes, etc.

Representative FORD. Now, when you actually went to Dallas, who in the Secret Service was under your jurisdiction, or what individual did you work with down there in the Secret Service?

Mr. LAWSON. I worked with Mr. Sorrels. He wouldn't really be under my jurisdiction because he was the local agent in charge, and he had various agents, also. On the day of the event his agents would be under my jurisdiction, and also his, because he is normally their boss.

Representative FORD. Howlett; what is his responsibility?

Mr. LAWSON. He is an agent of the Dallas office.

Representative FORD. Responsible to Mr. Sorrels?

Mr. LAWSON. To Mr. Sorrels; yes, sir.

Representative FORD. You got to Dallas when?

Mr. LAWSON. The evening; Tuesday evening, the 12th.

Representative FORD. When did you make the decision to investigate this group of extremists down there?

Mr. LAWSON. I heard that there were films available, I believe, on Wednesday, or Thursday. I believe it was Wednesday.

Representative FORD. That would be November 13?

Mr. LAWSON. The 13th; yes, sir. And I kept it in mind so that I could talk to the local office about that. I asked individuals in the local office, Mr. Sorrels and also Special Agent Howlett, if they had any knowledge, if they had done any informant-type work, if they had any knowledge of anything that was going to go on that we might not know in PRS, because PRS would only know of definite trips by the President. But they might know of something else that might occur. And also at another time I talked to Special Agent Howlett and asked him if he would view the films of this.

Representative FORD. You arrived there on the 12th, Tuesday?

Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. You met with Sorrels when?

Mr. LAWSON. On Wednesday morning.

Representative FORD. Wednesday morning?

Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. Did you bring up, or did he bring up, the problem of so-called extremist groups?

Mr. LAWSON. I believe I brought them up, but I am not sure I brought them up that morning. It was sometime later.

Representative FORD. Sometime that day?

Mr. LAWSON. It was that day or the next day that we talked about it. We talked about these extremist groups off and on, of course, all the time that I was there.

Representative FORD. Did you limit it to so-called rightwing groups, or did you have a broader view than that, about groups that might be a problem on this trip?

Mr. LAWSON. I believe that I specifically talked about the rightwing groups; yes.

Representative FORD. Did you ever have any responsibility for a trip to New York at any time?

Mr. LAWSON. No; I did not. I just assisted in one, the World's Fair opening yesterday, but at that time I had not.

Representative FORD. This would have to be hypothetical under the circumstances, but if in the time prior to November 22 you had the responsibility of a Presidential trip to a community where you knew the Fair Play for Cuba Committee was active, would you have taken any special interest in that group?

Mr. LAWSON. I don't know. If at that time I had ever heard that they were particularly, might be any threat to the President, a particular group, if I knew that there was a particular group that advocated the killing of the President, yes. If it was just a political group of one kind or another, no, I probably wouldn't unless I had definite information.

Representative FORD. Did you have any evidence that the groups you investigated in Dallas had any program or interest in killing the President?

Mr. LAWSON. No; I did not.

Representative FORD. You had this investigation made of this group in Dallas because of the Stevenson incident?