Part 51

Mr. DULLES. The wire service car is the seventh car including the lead police vehicle. Well, the lead car, if you count the lead car, six, the sixth car.

Representative FORD. He testified as I recall that the car in which he was--was halfway down the block between Main and Elm at the time that he looked up and saw the building and saw people in windows.

Mr. DULLES. This is Houston and this is Elm. Houston and Elm isn't it, not Main. Main and Elm, or yes.

Representative FORD. However, the time span between the time that the lead car, the President's car and the followup car came down Houston and turned down Elm is a relatively short period of time.

Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. By the way, at what speed were you going as you came around the turn and into Elm Street? You said 7 to 10 downtown. Would it be about the same speed there?

Mr. LAWSON. I imagine it was a little faster at this time, sir, because the downtown section where it was quite heavily populated with people watching the motorcade, we had been out of that for a while before we got to the Houston Street turn. So we were probably back up to perhaps 12 or 15 miles an hour by then.

Mr. McCLOY. But you would have had to slow up a bit coming around the curve.

Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. STERN. Mr. Lawson, can you tell us why you didn't plan the motorcade so that it went straight down Main Street to turn right on to the entrance to the freeway instead of taking this dogleg on Houston and Elm?

Mr. DULLES. Jerry, will you take over.

Representative FORD. Will you proceed please, Mr. Stern?

Mr. STERN. Yes.

Mr. LAWSON. You mean why we didn't come straight down Main Street to the Stemmons Freeway?

Mr. STERN. Right.

Mr. LAWSON. Because it is my understanding there isn't any entrance to the freeway on Main Street.

Mr. STERN. But you don't yourself recall now or do you?

Mr. LAWSON. Yes, I was told that there wasn't any entrance that way, and I myself once when I went to the Trade Mart, not knowing that there was any entrance to it, went down Main Street. You must enter the freeway going in the direction that we wanted to go from the Elm Street extension.

Mr. STERN. When you went down Main Street you found that you could not get on to the entrance to the Stemmons Freeway?

Mr. LAWSON. Going the direction on the freeway towards the Trade Mart, that is correct.

Mr. STERN. Which is the direction the motorcade was to go?

Mr. LAWSON. Was to go; yes, sir.

Mr. STERN. Have you ever had occasion to provide for building checks along a motorcade route when you were doing an advance, or is it just never done? This is as of the time of Dallas.

Mr. LAWSON. I have never had an advance where I had buildings checked on our route.

Mr. STERN. It is not a question----

Mr. LAWSON. On a moving route.

Mr. STERN. It is not a question of your instructions? You could if you wanted to, I take it? It is just a matter of your discretion and your training, is that correct?

Mr. LAWSON. I don't believe it is discretion. It is just that to my knowledge only inaugurations or when a foreign president or king comes to Washington, like that where it is a motorcade route known practically for years in advance of how you are going to go do we check, start out with enough men, enough time ahead of time to check the whole route up to that time.

Mr. DULLES. Is there any practice of going to the superintendent of a building and putting any responsibility on him to see that strangers don't come into the building at that time, or assuming any responsibility at all with respect to the inmates of the building? I don't know what the practices are.

Mr. LAWSON. As I stated, sir, there was for inaugurations here in Washington--we have done building surveys of buildings that overlook the White House, that overlook the grounds, that overlook areas where the President goes quite often or where he might be out or something like that. Yes, sir; we keep those quite up to date. Out on a trip away from Washington, I have never requested building superintendents to do this. This was not the usual practice.

Mr. SMITH. May I ask a question there, sir. Is any of that information that you just gave the type of thing that is not supposed to be known publicly? I just don't know how necessary this is to the record, I mean about checking the buildings around the White House and so on. Is there anything about that that is sensitive?

Mr. LAWSON. I would assume that most of the people thought that we did.

Representative FORD. I think that is the general impression.

Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. SMITH. I can check on that. If there is something in there I might want to come back on.

Representative FORD. I think as far as we are concerned if you do check on it and find that it is something that ought to be left off the record we could certainly do so.

Mr. DULLES. It might be declassified as a whole or lower the classification, so I think it is well to put in the record what you have said, that this part of the record should be reviewed by the Secret Service, and if it is a security matter I think they ought to raise it. I don't think we want to ever disclose anything that the responsible agency thinks would imperil the life of any President.

Mr. SMITH. I have in mind what he said and I will check on it right away. Unless I come back and make some point about it, why you can rest assured that there will be no problem.

Representative FORD. Will you call the attention of the Commission to what you find out, whether it should or should not be in the record?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, I will. May I tell Mr. Stern?

Representative FORD. Surely.

Mr. STERN. Were you aware of a suggestion that a vehicle with representatives of the Dallas homicide squad be in the motorcade, I believes behind the Vice President's car, a decision that was changed just before November 22?

Can you tell us anything about that?

Mr. LAWSON. I believe I recall some mention of them asking--I don't remember if they asked if there should be a car or not but I believe there was some mention that there be a car, that they could have a car in the back there. This was not usual procedure. In New York it is, and on foreign trips it is.

Mr. DULLES. I understood that car was to be between the lead car I think and the President's car, was it not, or is it between--no, between the lead car and the President's car.

Mr. STERN. I haven't yet seen the transcript of yesterday's session, sir, and I am not quite sure.

Representative FORD. My recollection is that it was to follow the President's car, either behind the followup car or behind the Vice President's car.

Mr. DULLES. We can check that. It is somewhere in there. I have a feeling it was ahead of the President's car but I may be wrong.

Mr. STERN. I understand we have been advised that at one point there was such an arrangement and that this was changed, and that Captain Fritz, the head of the Homicide Division, who was to ride in that car, went instead at someone's request to the Trade Mart where he was to participate in security at the speaker's table. Do you know anything about that?

Mr. LAWSON. I remember it being mentioned. Whether it was a request or whether they had already laid it on I do not know, but I do remember it being mentioned that they could have a car if it was so desired.

Mr. STERN. If they desired?

Mr. LAWSON. I don't recall if it was that they would put it in if we wanted it or if they said that they definitely would put it in or what.

But it was mentioned, and I hadn't thought of this since. That is why I am a little hazy on it. But I don't know even who cancelled it, whether they did or whether we had just said well it is not the normal procedure so that they did. But as far as Captain Fritz going to the Trade Mart, I don't know anything about that.

Mr. STERN. But you did say, I take it, it is normal procedure in New York?

Mr. LAWSON. In New York, New York has a special squad of people. One of their main functions is protection of foreign dignitaries when they come to visit the U.N. or for any other reason. These people are used----

Mr. DULLES. Do we give more protection to foreign dignitaries than we do to our own Chief of State?

Mr. LAWSON. Is that a question for me?

Mr. DULLES. That is a question.

Mr. LAWSON. No, sir; I don't believe we do. I don't believe the security, the advance security arrangements, are quite as stringent.

Mr. STERN. This New York procedure is something you have worked out with the New York authorities?

Mr. LAWSON. I am not aware of the policy arrangements that were made. I do know that there is a detective car used in New York quite often filled with this special detail of men.

Mr. STERN. Do they have a special responsibility in the motorcade?

Mr. LAWSON. They act as Secret Service agents act in the motorcade. They help out if there is a stop and we need extra men and so forth. But I am not aware of why they are there. It wasn't my decision that they be there.

Mr. DULLES. Could I ask one question right there. Whose duty is it, whose responsibility is it to decide how many of these cars will be in the motorcade, how many protective cars let me say? I am not speaking of cars for dignitaries or press and so forth, but how many protective cars are in a motorcade? Does the Secret Service decide that or do the local police decide it to some extent or do you decide it in consultation?

Mr. LAWSON. We have our usual motorcade, and usually it is in consultation. They take our recommendations quite frankly.

Mr. DULLES. Have you been giving any consideration to reviewing that procedure to see whether the existing procedure is the best from the protective angle?

Have you any suggestions to give us on that?

Mr. LAWSON. I believe that the chief's office is, but I am not in a position to say what they are going to do.

Mr. DULLES. I think it would be interesting if that was being done. Maybe it should be done, just to have a good look at it. If you could advise us as to whether that is under consideration, it might be helpful.

Representative FORD. I think it was my understanding that the Treasury Department is making a review of this whole setup, are they not?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, I understand so. I understand that we have discussed with the Chief Justice an arrangement, sort of a question and answer thing to begin with on this because of the sensitive nature of this information, to see if adequate information for your purposes can be developed that way, and then at that point or at some point in the future it will be decided how this question of the review and new procedures will be handled. That is my understanding of it.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. SMITH. I am Fred B. Smith, Deputy General Counsel of the Treasury Department.

Representative FORD. Will you stand and be sworn.

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

Mr. SMITH. I do.

Mr. DULLES. I wonder if the witness would just repeat.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. STERN. On the record.

Representative FORD. Would you repeat what you indicated a moment ago, Mr. Smith?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; I have been informed that an arrangement was worked out with the Chief Justice with respect to the question of improving procedures for the protection of the President that certain information would be provided in the form of questions and answers, and that after that procedure had been fulfilled, consideration would be given as to such questions as the necessity of further testimony on such questions and appropriate security arrangements with respect to such information.

This is on hearsay. I haven't been involved in that myself. I would like to ask Mr. Stern if that is in accordance with his understanding.

Mr. STERN. It is my understanding.

Mr. DULLES. If it is appropriate I suggest that maybe this question of the number of protective cars in a motorcade of this nature might be one of the questions you would be willing to consider, or whoever is considering this matter would be willing to include among the subjects of consideration.

Representative FORD. Will you proceed, Mr. Stern.

Mr. STERN. I would like to finish on this special New York practice with you, Mr. Lawson. If an incident were to occur during a motorcade in New York, is it your understanding that the responsibility of these New York officials, detectives, would be to investigate the incident or to stay with the motorcade as the Secret Service would?

Mr. LAWSON. I am afraid I couldn't answer that. I don't know.

Mr. STERN. Is there something special about the New York circumstances that makes it desirable to have these additional detectives that you don't ordinarily have?

Mr. LAWSON. Again I don't know. I conceive myself personally--where we go through quite often--I believe there are more people in the State of New York than there are in Billings, Mont., and you might have more of a chance of something occurring in New York. But again I don't know why it is in New York and not usual in other places.

Mr. STERN. Was the organization of the motorcade in Dallas typical, apart from New York?

Mr. LAWSON. Yes. Quite typical.

Mr. STERN. Would it be the same in Billings, Mont., or would you have additional strength in the motorcade in Dallas?

Mr. LAWSON. As far as escorting people, there were more people in Dallas.

Mr. STERN. More celebrities?

Mr. LAWSON. No; by escorting people I meant motorcycles or something like that. Again it depends on where you are, even if they have motorcycles or how many they have. But the makeup of the motorcade vehicles itself, again depending on who is coming and how many cars you have is pretty generally the same. A pilot car, a lead car, the President's car, motorcycles if you have them, some motorcycles if you have them along the side of the motorcade to help keep it intact or if it gets split up as it has on occasion to be able to catch them up and rear vehicles to keep them from passing the motorcade, et cetera.

Mr. STERN. And the one Presidential followup car.

Mr. LAWSON. And the Secret Service followup car; yes, sir. This was my first movement with the President and the Vice President all at the same time. That was quite out of the ordinary.

Mr. STERN. And there you added a Vice-Presidential followup car?

Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. STERN. Performing the same function as the Presidential followup?

Mr. LAWSON. That is correct.

Mr. STERN. But apart from the motorcycles, I take it if you had been in Billings, Mont., the organization of the motorcade would have been the same; is that correct?

Mr. LAWSON. Just about the same; yes, sir.

Mr. STERN. I would like to touch briefly on the selection of the Trade Mart and the security measures there, having in mind that your three memorandums cover this in great detail. If you could just highlight and indicate if in any respect your memorandums are inaccurate or incomplete. The record will rely primarily on your memorandums.

Mr. LAWSON. I don't know of any incorrectness in it. There might be.

Mr. STERN. Or any detail that you would want to add?

Mr. LAWSON. No; I can't. If you have some specific questions.

Mr. STERN. Why don't you just summarize then how the Trade Mart was selected, your participation in it, the consideration of alternatives, the decision ultimately to use the Trade Mart, whether you had any particular preference between the Trade Mart and the other building that was considered. Take that part of it first.

Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir. The morning after we arrived in Dallas, late in the morning, we, Mr. Sorrels and Mr. Puterbaugh and myself and another agent from Dallas, Agent Stewart, went to Mr. Cullum's office who is the president of the Dallas Chamber of Commerce, a local businessman who was acting as subcommittee chairman I guess for the local host committee.

Mr. STERN. I don't think we need this much detail because we have your memorandum. If you could just tell us in general terms where you went and the considerations.

Mr. LAWSON. Some of us went to Mr. Cullum's office and after talking with him there for a while we went to the Trade Mart, met with representatives of the Trade Mart, the general manager of the Trade Mart, and were shown generally around the building, told how they usually handled luncheons or dinners or dances that are held there.

Mr. STERN. Were there particular security problems that the Trade Mart presented?

Mr. LAWSON. There were balconies there and also it was a building that would be used by other people that day. However, this is somewhat good because it wasn't exactly a public building where anyone could wander in. The lessees of the showrooms there or their customers have to be checked in. You either have to be a lessee or a bona fide customer of a showroom in order to even get in the building. They have kind of a semisecurity of their own that way. So it was good in that respect. There were hanging bridges and balconies, as I have said, side corridors and what not. After we left there, we went to the Women's Building at the fairgrounds, to look that over, and in this particular case the food would have had to have been brought in because there isn't any kitchen there, which was a plus at the Trade Mart. They had a regular cafeteria there and a catering service, which the Women's Building didn't have. The Women's Building is on one floor, quite low ceilinged, and the press coverage that is usually quite in evidence when the President is anywhere, both from the traveling press with him and the local press would have required their usual press coverage, and it would not have been as good in the Women's Building, because of the low ceilings.

They usually like to be up at least as high as the President or higher, 1, 2, or 3 feet. So we could put them in a balcony at the Trade Mart but we could not do so, at least get them any higher because of the low roof at the Women's Building. There were numerous columns in the Women's Building that would have blocked everybody's view of the people at the head dinner table, guests, and the guests there. So there were pluses and minuses for both buildings, and I so informed people in Washington and Mr. Puterbaugh informed people in Washington also.

Representative FORD. Who made the decision as to the Trade Mart or the Women's Building at the fairgrounds?

Mr. LAWSON. That was made in Washington, sir.

Representative FORD. By whom, do you know?

Mr. LAWSON. I am assuming by the White House. I know that Mr. Puterbaugh was in contact with the National Democratic Headquarters people, and they were in contact with the White House and with the various groups down in Texas, the Governor's office as well. When the decision was finally made, we were told that it had been made but not to tell anyone yet because the announcement would come probably from the Governor's office.

Representative FORD. Do you make a report in writing in this kind of a situation, the relative advantages and disadvantages of the two buildings?

Mr. LAWSON. No, sir.

Representative FORD. From a security point of view?

Mr. LAWSON. No, sir.

Representative FORD. How do the people in Washington make the decisions then?

Mr. LAWSON. Mr. Puterbaugh told the people he was in contact with and I told Mr. Behn's office what I saw.

Mr. STERN. Who is Mr. Behn?

Mr. LAWSON. Mr. Behn is the agent in charge of the White House detail. What I saw in both buildings. As I say the decision was made back here in Washington.

Representative FORD. You summarized your views on this kind of a situation to Mr. Behn?

Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. Who is your superior. By telephone, not in writing?

Mr. LAWSON. No, sir.

Representative FORD. Is this the case in all instances?

Mr. LAWSON. Well, it usually doesn't happen. Usually I know when you are going some place if the function is to be at the Statler Hotel or something like that.

Representative FORD. Do you know whether or not Mr. Behn made any recommendations on this?

Mr. LAWSON. I have no idea.

Representative FORD. You gave him your observations and your recommendations?

Mr. LAWSON. I don't know if I gave it to him. I gave his office. Now there were at that time two assistants.

Representative FORD. Did you make a recommendation one over the other?

Mr. LAWSON. No; I did not. I said that I was sure we could effectively handle both situations. Again the motorcade was to be taken into consideration also. If you went to the Trade Mart you would have certain ways to go and if you went to the Women's Building you would have certain ways to go. And so they had to decide, someone had to decide whether they wanted the Trade Mart or certain motorcade specifications also, in the 45 minute time lapse.

Mr. STERN. On the basis of your experience, if you had had a strong preference from a security point of view for one building over the other do you think that would have been followed in this case?

Mr. LAWSON. I could have only told them what I thought, and how much weight it would have had I don't know.

Mr. STERN. Can you tell us roughly the total number of police, sheriff's office officials, and Secret Service agents that were engaged in protecting the President in Dallas and break them down if you can as between people at the Trade Mart, people on the motorcade route, people at Love Field?

Mr. LAWSON. I can give you what I was told was going to--that the police were going to provide but I won't be able to tell you exactly what they did provide, and also inform you that I was told that certain police were going to be shifted from one spot to another. I understood that as we went by a certain part of the motorcade some of those police then would be shifted perhaps over to the motorcade route on the way back in the intervening 1-1/2 or 2 hours that would still elapse. And I have that in my report if I can turn to it.

Mr. STERN. Yes; why don't you tell us in total numbers at each location.

Mr. LAWSON. But again I cannot tell you if these police figures, being the ones that they gave me, show that these are the same amount of men that were shifted or if these are separate men, because they were going to use part on the motorcade and shift them to another spot.

Now, whether that would double it or what I do not know. At the Trade Mart 108, and I believe this includes out in the parking lots and on there. That doesn't mean they were inside the Trade Mart. Along the Route 90. And escorts 20. Love Field 55, cruising 100.

Mr. STERN. Cruising?

Mr. LAWSON. Chief Curry said that naturally they have the rest of the city to protect and we can't go in and take every policeman that they have so that someone knows that all the police are going to be involved and it would be easier to commit certain crimes. But in addition to his regular police coverage of police cars throughout the city, there were also going to be some other police cars fairly close to our motorcade area, so that they could be called in if they had to be.

Mr. STERN. I see.

Mr. LAWSON. Detectives, 40; department of public safety uniformed, 40; rangers, 5; plainclothes, 16; Dallas County Sheriff Department, 14; fire department, 26; the White House detail agents, 20; agents from the Vice President's detail, 4; agents from the Dallas office, 4.

Mr. STERN. So there were 28 Secret Service agents involved?

Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. STERN. At the various locations. Do you know whether the Dallas police who were used were full-time policemen or were auxiliary policemen?

Mr. LAWSON. I do not know.

Mr. DULLES. Do you happen to know the circumstances under which there were some certain changes made as to the location of the motorcycle escort that went close to the President's car?

Mr. LAWSON. I know that their position varied, depending on the crowds.