Part 50

Mr. LAWSON. We drove it sir, with them taking notes, and them making suggestions and Mr. Sorrels and I making suggestions.

Mr. STERN. To what extent did they actually participate in the decision that this be the route?

Mr. LAWSON. They were asked their advice on possible routes that you could go to the Trade Mart.

Mr. STERN. And they had no disagreement with the route----

Mr. LAWSON. No, sir.

Mr. STERN. That was actually selected, no criticism of it? What arrangements did you make with the Dallas police for security along the route, starting from Love Field and getting to the Trade Mart?

Mr. LAWSON. A good deal of it was traffic control, both to keep people out of our path as the motorcade progressed so that they would have at least the major intersections covered and as many of the other ones as possible. Those which were not, all intersections that were not able to be controlled physically by a policeman or more than one policeman were to be controlled by motorcycles that would hop-skip the motorcade, or other police vehicles in the motorcade.

At certain times certain intersections were to be cutoff as we proceeded so that it would allow time for any traffic ahead of us to clear the area before we arrived there. Where it was felt from past experience and the type of area that we were passing through there would be large crowds, more police were requested for along the route, and on the routes.

Mr. STERN. Foot policemen or motorcycle patrolmen?

Mr. LAWSON. Both, sir. They were requested at the corners to have more than one policeman, so that there would be policemen for watching the crowd and controlling the crowd, and other policemen who would have jurisdiction over the traffic in the area, so that someone wouldn't be watching the crowd and a car going by him or vice versa. We saw the underpasses or overpasses or bridges that were on the route, and they were requested to have officers, depending on the type of installation there that I just mentioned, the type that it was, either under it or over it, on the underpasses. The railroad lines were checked and here was no rail traffic of a scheduled nature over the two rail crossings that we would pass, none on the way in but two on the way out.

However, just to make sure that a switch engine or other trains wouldn't come along about the time we were due there, and then stop the President's motorcade, why we had police stationed at the railroad crossings that were on the same level as the road.

Mr. STERN. What were the instructions that you asked be given to the police who were stationed on overpasses and railroad crossings?

Mr. LAWSON. They were requested to keep the people to the sides of the bridge or the overpass so that--or underpass--so that people viewing from a vantage point like that would not be directly over the President's car so that they could either inadvertently knock something off or drop something on purpose or do some other kind of harm.

Mr. STERN. This is all people, not just outside members of the public?

Mr. LAWSON. Any citizen that was trying to view the motorcade, they were to be kept from right directly over the President's car, if it was a bridge or an underpass.

Mr. STERN. What about the deployment of police on rooftops of buildings at any point along the route?

Mr. LAWSON. We had--police were requested at points where I knew that the President would be out of the car for any length of time.

Mr. STERN. And where was that?

Mr. LAWSON. At the Trade Mart and at the airport.

Mr. McCLOY. May I interrupt at this point. During the course of the motorcade while the motorcade was in motion, no matter how slowly, you had no provision for anyone on the roofs?

Mr. LAWSON. No, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. Or no one to watch the windows?

Mr. LAWSON. Oh, yes. The police along the area were to watch the crowds and their general area. The agents riding in the followup car as well as myself in the lead car were watching the crowds and the windows and the rooftops as we progressed.

Mr. McCLOY. It was part of your routine duties when you were going through a street in any city, to look at the windows as well as the crowds?

Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir; and if the President's car slowed to such a point or the crowd ever pressed in to such a point that people are getting too close to the President, the agents always get out and go along the car.

Mr. STERN. Perhaps you had better describe the vehicles and passengers in the motorcade beginning with the pilot car and going, say, through the Vice Presidential followup car.

Mr. LAWSON. At one time I could have probably listed them all by name.

Mr. STERN. No, not their names, but the vehicle order.

Mr. LAWSON. The vehicle itself, yes sir.

Mr. STERN. And the agents, the number of agents.

Mr. LAWSON. And the function of the vehicle.

Mr. STERN. And the function of the vehicle and the responsibility of the agents in the vehicle.

Mr. LAWSON. Yes sir. This varies, but in a usual motorcade, as in this particular instance, there is what we call a pilot car. This is usually a local police car that precedes the motorcade some distance, depending on the crowd. It would usually precede it by at least a quarter of a mile. This is to see if there is any kind of a disturbance up ahead far enough so that we are able to take an alternate route if the need arises. It being a police car, it has radio communications with the whole network of the police and also the police at the stops, the ones we have just left and the particular function like the Trade Mart or airport that we are going to.

In this car ride a few command officers of the local police department, and it is their job to make sure that the traffic is stopped as it was planned to be, look out for any disturbances, and in general be a front guard for the motorcade.

Mr. McCLOY. Do you have a communications system with the Secret Service agents for this pilot car?

Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir; because the next car in the motorcade is what we call a lead car and it is actually a rolling command car. We try to have a command officer from every jurisdiction of police with a radio net of their own in that vehicle. Sometimes if you are in an area where there are State police and local police and sheriff's and quite a few jurisdictions, where it is a long motorcade and you are going through various counties you are not able to have a command officer of every jurisdiction in that.

But in Dallas the lead ear, the car that I was in directly ahead of the President was a police car, and of course it had a radio that was in contact with the pilot car and any other radio on the police net. In addition to that, I had a portable radio on the Secret Service White House network.

Mr. McCLOY. Was there a Secret Service agent riding in the pilot car?

Mr. LAWSON. No sir; there was not.

Mr. McCLOY. The first Secret Service agent was----

Mr. LAWSON. In the lead car.

Mr. McCLOY. Was in the lead car. I don't know whether you want to--I have got to leave. Are you going to ask why they didn't go down Main Street?

Mr. STERN. Yes.

Mr. McCLOY. Take care of that. The suggestion was made yesterday--you are going to cover that?

(Discussion off the record.)

Representative FORD. I would like if I might to follow up with a question which you asked a minute ago on the record. As I recall your testimony, Mr. Lawson, you indicated that the police who were assigned along the route had the responsibility to check windows and the crowd. Is that what you indicated?

Mr. LAWSON. And also the agents as they went by; yes sir. It wouldn't be just a police responsibility; no, sir.

Representative FORD. How did the police know they had that responsibility?

Mr. LAWSON. In our police meetings, of which we had three or four listed in here, we talked about crowd control and watching the crowd, and of course the agents just do that anyway. That is part of their function. And in the newspaper accounts it said how watchful the police were going to be of all kinds of activity, and actually they requested public assistance, as I recall it, anyone that noticed anything unusual they had asked that they notify the police.

Representative FORD. When you meet with police officials, in this case Chief Curry, Sheriff Decker, and who else, is this clearly laid out that the members of their organization have the specific responsibility of checking windows? Do you followup to see whether this is actually put in writing to the members of the police force, and the Sheriff's department?

Mr. LAWSON. No, sir; I do not followup to see if it was put in writing.

Mr. DULLES. You mean an external check don't you? You don't mean going through each building?

Representative FORD. No. As I understood it, policemen have the responsibility to check windows and to look at the crowd, and I was just wondering whether there is any followup to be sure that the chief of police and the sheriff or anybody else actually makes this specific communication to the people in their organizations.

Mr. LAWSON. In this particular instance there was not. Sometimes on my own advances I have received copies of police directives. Sometimes this is covered and sometimes there are other directives. This is not normal though. It is just that the police say "Here is a copy of one of our orders." Sometimes it is the posting of police, sometimes it is that. In Berlin where I was assisting on an advance for President Kennedy's trip in June, we received all kinds of information of this type, even to the fact where the police had requested anyone to notify them of anyone that tried to gain entry into their room that didn't belong there, if it was a business office or if it was a private home or if all of a sudden they discovered they had a friend that they never knew they had before and all that. But this is not always done.

Mr. McCLOY. I want to get it clear. In your presence, in the instructions to the police in Dallas, did you tell the police to keep their eye on windows as you went along?

Mr. LAWSON. I cannot say definitely that I told the police to watch windows. I usually do. On this particular case I cannot say whether I definitely said that. I believe I did, but I would not swear to the fact that I said watch all the windows.

Mr. McCLOY. I have heard it rumored that there was a general routine in the Secret Service that when you were going through in a motorcade or by car, that the problem of watching windows was so great that you didn't do it. It was only as you came to a stop that it was the standing instructions that then roofs should be watched and places of advantage would be inspected or looked at. Is that true?

Mr. LAWSON. No, sir; the agents in the motorcade are to watch the route and the rooftops and the windows as they can. Of course there were thousands of windows there, over 20,000 I believe on that motorcade. But agents are supposed to watch as they go along.

Representative FORD. An advance agent such as yourself goes to talk with local police officials?

Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. Do you have a checklist? Do you have a procedure in writing that you hand to a local law enforcement agent so that he is clear as to the responsibilities of himself and his people?

Mr. LAWSON. No, sir; I have no checklist, although myself I have a number of things that I have marked down from past advances and seeing what other individuals do that I usually try to follow.

However, every situation is so different. Sometimes there are motorcades and sometimes there are not, and it just wouldn't fit every situation.

Representative FORD. But there is no specific list of instructions that the Secret Service gives to a local law enforcement agency?

Mr. LAWSON. No.

Representative FORD. At the time of the Presidential visit?

Mr. LAWSON. No.

Representative FORD. Do you think that it would be helpful?

Mr. LAWSON. It would be helpful in a general way. And it could be augmented to fit the situation.

Representative FORD. In other words, if you had general instructions you could give those to the local law enforcement people, and as you say, for special circumstances, or different circumstances, you could augment them at the scene?

Mr. LAWSON. I believe it would be helpful. For example, I know that New York police have, because we were up there so often, and I just returned from there yesterday, they have a checklist of their own in the police meetings with the Secret Service that they go over, what time the arrival is, where he is going to be met, is it a motorcade, is it a helicopter, et cetera. But still there are many more things that should be in there.

Representative FORD. But I would think for every Presidential visit there would be certain mandatory things that would have to be done, areas of responsibility of Federal officials, areas of responsibility for local officials.

Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. Such a memorandum or checklist I should think would be helpful in defining the areas of responsibility, being certain that there is no misunderstanding as to whose responsibility it is for A, B, C, or D operations.

Mr. LAWSON. I agree.

Mr. STERN. Were any arrangements made to inspect buildings along the parade route?

Mr. LAWSON. No, sir; other than those buildings that we were stopping at.

Mr. STERN. And this would be?

Mr. LAWSON. The Trade Mart.

Mr. STERN. And Love Field?

Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. Is it recognized in your business, if it is a fact, that a building that affords a window that looks down parallel with the motorcade is an unusually vulnerable point? Do you get the trend of my question?

Mr. McCLOY. Parallel rather that at right angles?

Mr. DULLES. Yes.

Mr. LAWSON. I know that there are some windows that are more vulnerable than others, let's say.

Mr. DULLES. That give a more vulnerable point of attack?

Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir; if you were going in a motorcade at 50 or 60 miles an hour and then all of sudden there was some reason why something narrowed down and you had to slow up or you knew there was going to be a big crowd here and the President would probably slow his vehicle like he usually did for big crowds and stand up and wave, then you would be more concerned about those windows in that area than other areas. This motorcade to my knowledge, we went 15 or 20 miles an hour through most of it except the downtown section at about 7 or 10.

Mr. McCLOY. 10 or 7 did you say?

Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir; 7 to 10 miles an hour.

Mr. DULLES. In this case I assume that if anyone had been looking at windows, the car that would have seen the rifle and the man would have been a car several cars back from the President's car, is that not correct?

Mr. McCLOY. It might have been the other.

Representative FORD. The testimony of one of these young men that we had, if it is accurate, I would have thought that the lead car might have seen the Book Depository.

Mr. STERN. We will hear testimony from another passenger in the lead car, Mr. Sorrels, who was in charge of the Dallas Secret Service Office, that as the car turned from Houston onto Elm, he saw people in the windows of the School Book Depository Building. He cannot recall seeing anyone on the sixth floor, and it is more likely that he saw people on the fifth floor from his descriptions. He saw some Negro employees. But he could see from the lead car people in the Book Depository Building as it came in view around the corner.

Mr. McCLOY. Did you see anybody in the School Book Depository?

Mr. LAWSON. No, sir; at this point just as we started around that corner I asked Chief Curry if it was not true that we were probably 5 minutes from the Trade Mart, and it is quite usual to make a radio call to your next point of stop that you are 5 minutes away. Therefore right about the time we turned that corner and were a little ways past it, I am sure I was speaking on the radio, because the White House Communications Agency has about the time I gave the 5 minutes away warning signal, and within seconds after that the shots were fired.

Representative FORD. As you came or as the lead car came down Houston Street----

Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. You were facing the Texas School Depository?

Mr. LAWSON. Right.

Representative FORD. Did you look at or scan that building?

Mr. LAWSON. I do not, no, because part of my job is to look backwards at the President's car. The speed of the motorcade is controlled by the President's car, unless is it is an emergency situation. If he stands up and is waving at the crowd and there are quite a few crowds then, of course, the car goes slower. If the density of the crowd is quite scarce or there is a time factor why you are going faster. So the person in the lead car in this rolling command car usually keeps turning around and watching the President's car. If his car comes up on our bumper that means we are not going fast enough and we should go faster, and you tell the command officer to call the motorcycles, the pilot car, et cetera, to move out faster. If you notice that his car is dropping back from you, that means their car wants to go slower and you do the same thing in reverse. So I was watching the crowds along the sides, requesting Chief Curry to move motorcycles up or back, depending on the crowd, move them up towards the President's car because at certain times people were almost out to the car, and to use them as kind of a wedge. Other times they were able to drop back or go forward, so that I was looking back a good deal of the time, watching his car, watching the sides, watching the crowds, giving advice or asking advice from the Chief and also looking ahead to the known hazards like overpasses, underpasses, railroads, et cetera.

Representative FORD. But as the lead car turned from Main onto Houston and proceeded toward Elm, you were more preoccupied with looking at the President?

Mr. LAWSON. I don't know whether I was looking sideways or backwards then, but I do recall noticing the Book Depository Building and that corner and then deciding that we must be about 5 minutes away, and asking Chief Curry if this was not so and then making a radio broadcast.

Representative FORD. So as you drove down Houston Street, you didn't have an opportunity to look at the Texas School Depository?

Mr. LAWSON. I may have, but I don't remember if I saw this. I was doing so many things all at once.

Representative FORD. What was Sorrels' responsibility at this point?

Mr. LAWSON. His responsibility would be again to watch the crowds and the windows a little bit more than I because it was my responsibility to be watching the Presidential car.

Mr. STERN. He was sitting in the rear right, was he not?

Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir; and I was in the right front.

Representative FORD. He didn't have the responsibility of looking back like you did?

Mr. LAWSON. Not as much as I would have; no, sir.

Representative FORD. In light of the problem of trying to have individuals in numerous buildings, inspecting the buildings and so forth, is it desirable to have more people in another car ahead of the lead car for the purpose of scanning buildings?

Mr. LAWSON. Giving a personal opinion now, I would say that that would be a good factor. However, if someone stayed back from the window until you went by and then stuck his gun out the window, why it might not be as good.

Representative FORD. It wouldn't be any worse.

Mr. LAWSON. No, sir; but if they did see something that wasn't a likely occurrence, then they could broadcast over the radio stop the President or turn right or turn left.

Representative FORD. But as I understand your responsibilities in the lead car, it doesn't appear that you had an opportunity to do the scanning?

Mr. LAWSON. No, sir.

Representative FORD. Which was necessary.

Mr. LAWSON. No, sir; I would not.

Representative FORD. So you are really left up to one individual in the lead car in the Secret Service for that purpose?

Mr. LAWSON. Yes.

Representative FORD. I raise the question whether that is adequate for the overall purpose.

Mr. SMITH. Sir, I don't want to interfere with the procedures but could I ask a question off the record?

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. McCLOY. I think you might go on the record with this. There has been some question as to whether we are referring directly only to the lead car or whether to all the personnel in the cavalcade. I gather, Mr. Ford, you were referring to the personnel in the lead car as distinguished from the other Secret Service personnel and other police in the motorcade as a whole?

Representative FORD. That is correct. I am cognizant of the fact we have a followup car. What are the responsibilities of those in the followup car?

Mr. McCLOY. By followup car do you mean the President's car because there will be Secret Service men in the President's car too?

Representative FORD. There was only one on this occasion, or two, the driver and Mr. Kellerman. The driver was certainly preoccupied, and as I remember Mr. Kellerman's testimony, he was so engaged he didn't have an opportunity to do the kind of scanning that would appear to be necessary. So whatever scanning there was done by either the lead car or the Presidential car or the followup car primarily had to be done by the people in the followup car. Is that a fair analysis?

Mr. LAWSON. I don't recall if you mentioned the pilot car, but they would have had an opportunity in the pilot car to do some scanning.

Representative FORD. But there are no Secret Service people there.

Mr. LAWSON. No Secret Service people in that one.

Mr. McCLOY. There would be Secret Service men in the Vice Presidential car, and of course there is the Secret Service car that follows the Presidential car, all through the route there are interspersed Secret Service men.

Mr. DULLES. It must have been the third or fourth or fifth car in the motorcade that was right opposite the window at the time the assassin put the rifle well out of the window and shot.

Mr. McCLOY. Why do you say that?

Mr. DULLES. The shooting took place when the President's car was somewhere here (indicating to photograph of scene). It had made the turn, you see. Here is the building. Now there is the window up here roughly. He didn't shoot here. They went around the turn and were down here. There was a barricade there. There was something there that obstructed the view you will remember.

Mr. McCLOY. That is the sign here like this.

Mr. DULLES. It would be down that far.

Mr. McCLOY. It might have been there.

Mr. DULLES. As close as that? Whatever it was, the car that was right opposite the window and going in this direction at that time must have been the fourth or fifth car--the car which had the best view of the assassination. You wouldn't be looking I shouldn't think, if you were in a car here, you wouldn't be looking back there. You would be looking off here and off here for protection.

I should think that car in this strange situation, where he was shooting right down the street--isn't that correct? I don't know if you have ever followed that up. I don't know what car it is. It is some car along here, though, that would have been right opposite the window at the time the shooting took place, not one of the lead cars or the President's car.

Mr. STERN. By these cars you mean, sir----

Mr. DULLES. In the motorcade. Some of these down here. It might have been even the wire services or the press cars. I don't know how many cars but I think from our photographs we ought to be able to identify that.

Representative FORD. A man named Jackson who was a photographer in one of the cars with photographers is an individual who identified the fact that somebody was in that window with a rifle as I recall.

Mr. DULLES. He was in one of the press cars was he?

Representative FORD. Yes.