Part 49

Mr. STERN. Which you have described? And can you identify this additional document marked for identification Commission Exhibit No. 769?

Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir; this is a statement of the activities that I had, to the best of my knowledge, in connection with the Presidential visit to Dallas covering my activities only pertaining to the Dallas trip from November 4 through 21.

Mr. STERN. This, I take it, was not a routine report?

Mr. LAWSON. No, sir; it was not.

Mr. STERN. It was prepared because of what transpired at Dallas? Mr. Chairman, may we have admitted 768 and 769?

Mr. McCLOY. They may be admitted.

(Commission Exhibits Nos. 768 and 769 were received in evidence.)

Mr. STERN. Now, beginning November 8, can you tell us the preparations for your trip that you did here in Washington?

Mr. LAWSON. Yes. Acting on the instruction to come into the office on November 8 for the additional instructions that I had been told I would receive, Mr. Roy Kellerman, who is an assistant special agent in charge of the detail, gave myself and other members of the advance teams going out what information they had up to that time on their respective stops. Mr. Kellerman told me the name of Mr. Jack Puterbaugh, whom I would meet on an airplane taking the advance agents to Dallas the next week. I contacted the White House Communications Agency to see if they were sending a communications representative along to help out as they usually did, and was given his name. Mr. Kellerman gave me the name of a car contact in the Dallas area so that we would be able to obtain cars for the motorcade, which is normal.

Mr. STERN. These are cars, as I understand it----

Mr. LAWSON. For the Presidential party.

Mr. STERN. Furnished to you by----

Mr. LAWSON. The Ford Motor Co.

Mr. STERN. By people in the area that you visit----

Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. STERN. For use during the visit of the President? Were you told anything about the assistance you would have in doing advance work for the Dallas trip?

Mr. LAWSON. Could you be more explicit, please?

Mr. STERN. Whether you would have another agent assigned to do the work with you?

Mr. LAWSON. Oh, yes. I had been told earlier, sometime between November 4 and 8, that another agent would be accompanying me, but, because of the Presidential trips which were occurring right at that time, that they would not be able to send out one at the same time, and he would have to join me later in Dallas after some of the other trips had been taken care of.

Mr. STERN. What were the usual arrangements as far as assignments?

Mr. LAWSON. Quite often two agents would go out at the same time; yes, sir.

Mr. STERN. And your responsibilities and those of this other agent when he joined you pertained only to Dallas; is that correct?

Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. STERN. You were not concerned with any other city in the President's route?

Mr. LAWSON. Not on that occasion; no, sir.

Mr. STERN. And each of those cities had its own advance agent or agents?

Mr. LAWSON. That is correct.

Mr. STERN. Doing the same work you were doing?

Mr. LAWSON. That is correct.

Mr. STERN. When, in fact, did the other agent join you?

Mr. LAWSON. On Monday evening. May I refer to the date of this?

Mr. STERN. Please.

Mr. LAWSON. November 18; Monday evening.

Mr. STERN. Now, what steps did you take in Washington before you left, with respect to determining the names and other information about persons who might be in the Dallas area and who might be regarded as potential threats to the President?

Mr. LAWSON. I went--on November 8, after leaving Mr. Kellerman's office, I went to the office in the Executive Office Building where our agents of the Protective Research Section are, and notified agents at that location that I was being assigned the advance for Dallas, Tex., trip, the date of this trip, and that I requested them to check their files and determine as to whether I should have the name of any individual in the Dallas area who was of record to us as an active subject.

Mr. STERN. Was this request made in writing?

Mr. LAWSON. It was oral, sir.

Mr. STERN. Is it usually made that way, orally? Do you ever make a written request?

Mr. LAWSON. I have never done so. I don't know about the other individuals.

Mr. STERN. What did they tell you?

Mr. LAWSON. I was told after waiting there a little while that there were no subjects of record in the Dallas area, of active PRS individuals that we would expect to harm the President.

Mr. STERN. And this check was made while you were present in the office?

Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Representative FORD. How long did it take, for example?

Mr. LAWSON. I believe I was there approximately 10 minutes. Not much more than 10 minutes, sir.

Representative FORD. In other words, they made this check on your behalf in that period of time?

Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. Do you know how they went about it? Did you observe how they went about it?

Mr. LAWSON. In looking back I can recall the individuals going to certain files, but I have never worked in the PRS Section and I only know general information about it.

Representative FORD. You asked somebody to check on the names of people who might be a threat in Dallas?

Mr. LAWSON. That is correct, sir.

Representative FORD. And within a period of 10 minutes they came back and said there were no names?

Mr. LAWSON. That is right, sir.

Mr. DULLES. What was their answer again? I didn't quite clearly hear it when you said it the first time.

Mr. LAWSON. I don't believe I could give you an exact answer.

Mr. DULLES. In general what was your recollection?

Mr. LAWSON. There were no PRS subjects, active PRS subjects which would be a threat to the President to our knowledge in the Dallas area in the files.

Mr. DULLES. And would you define PRS?

Mr. LAWSON. Protective Research Section.

Mr. STERN. Was there a file that you yourself checked preliminary to your trip?

Mr. LAWSON. I don't believe so.

Mr. STERN. Not a file of individuals but a file that might be helpful to you in your advance work for Dallas?

Mr. LAWSON. We have files of past trips, some of President Eisenhower's. I am not sure how long ago they go back because they are probably taken out and put some place else periodically. But for example we have all of President Kennedy's trips right now plus President Johnson's current ones, and an agent could if he desired, if he was being assigned to a city, go and see if the President had been there recently, and look in that for names or perhaps if he was going to the same hotel or something, this would give him names of people to contact there. He might obtain information. There was no report on Dallas for President Kennedy.

Mr. STERN. You checked?

Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. STERN. And found no report. This file would contain the reports such as your final report which we have marked "768," is that right?

Mr. LAWSON. That is correct.

Mr. STERN. There was nothing in there----

Mr. LAWSON. No, sir.

Mr. STERN. Reflecting any recent trip to the Dallas area?

Mr. LAWSON. That is correct.

Mr. STERN. Did anything else transpire before you left for Dallas as far as advance preparation?

Mr. LAWSON. I picked up paraphernalia that we use, sometimes more than other times depending on the type of trip it is. If there is to be a motorcade as there is in this case, we usually get car numbers for the windows and some identification pins for people who will not have identification supplied by a local committee, and other paraphernalia of this type, and I obtained those and took them with me.

Mr. STERN. Did anything else happen before you left for Dallas?

Mr. LAWSON. I called the Dallas office, the agent in charge was not in, and talked to another agent, told him that I was coming down with other agents on the Texas trip and would be dropped off at approximately 7:30 on the evening, Tuesday evening, of the next week, and----

Mr. STERN. What was the date?

Mr. LAWSON. I believe that is the 12th of November. That Mr. Puterbaugh and Chief Warrant Officer Bales from the Communications Agency, White House, would be accompanying me, and would they make arrangements to please have us met at the airport and for rooms. And then dictated a confirming memo before I left on the eighth.

Representative FORD. Did you have any other contacts with PRS other than this one?

Mr. LAWSON. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. STERN. You then went to Dallas on November 12?

Mr. LAWSON. That is correct.

Mr. STERN. What did you do in Dallas from the time of your arrival in connection with trying to learn about people who might be potentially dangerous to the President?

Mr. LAWSON. I was aware of the so-called Stevenson incident and so I didn't have to be told that there.

Mr. STERN. How did you become aware of that?

Mr. LAWSON. I had read it in the paper, and so without making inquiries I was aware of that when I went there.

Mr. STERN. You received no specific advice about that from PRS?

Mr. LAWSON. No, sir; I was aware of this fact. And then of course it was after I arrived there people were talking about it also. And although to my knowledge none of the people involved in that particular incident had threatened the President or were known to us as threatening the President, I asked Agent Howlett if he would view some films of this incident that I understood one of the local TV stations had.

I was informed of this by a local executive of the local paper who was on the host committee, that they had such films. And Agent Howlett did view these and had some still shots made of these individuals, although we still did not know that they were against President Kennedy or might harm him in any way. This was an extra on my part. I had asked Agent Howlett if he had any contact with any individuals, informants in the area that he might have, that the office might have about rightwing elements and what they might do, and was told that prior to my arrival in Dallas they had received some information on some rightwing activity, and that an investigation had been made, and that he also had talked to an informant or two I believe. But to their knowledge there was nothing in the radical-type rightwing movement so-called in the Dallas area that they knew of that was going to harm President Kennedy.

Mr. STERN. Did anything else occur? Did you have any discussions of this problem with the local police?

Mr. LAWSON. We talked with the local police on many occasions as to what would happen if there were demonstrations, pickets and so forth, if they knew of any activity, and I believe S. A. Howlett from the Dallas office did the same thing. The papers, the newspapers in Dallas had a few articles on how watchful the police were going to be of the crowd, with particular emphasis on disturbances or pickets, and some of the local committee, host committee, as well as some of the local political groups in the area were worried that perhaps the police would be overzealous in controlling picketing or disturbances, and asked me if I could find out just what the police were planning to do in this event, that there were some wild rumors as to just what the police were going to do. And because we like to have our local Agents who have to work with the police in these areas maintain the liaison I asked Mr. Sorrels if he would contact the chief of police and find out exactly what they planned to do in relation to picketing, and discussed the new ordinance that had been passed on the Monday, November 18 I believe it is, prior to the President's visit. And we were told that the police would accept peaceful picketing, but that the new ordinance was strictly to give them some power to act if pickets or individuals were interfering with lawful assembled groups, if they were trying to make noise to drown out people who were bona fide speakers at lawful groups, or if they were trying to interfere with any person entering or departing a lawful assembly.

Mr. STERN. Did anything occur in connection with a circular that was being circulated at the time?

Mr. LAWSON. Yes sir; I learned of a circular which had been distributed in various parts of the city, blue in color with President Kennedy's picture on it, and a list of grievances against him called treasonist to the United States. I was given a copy of the circular in the police chief's office, and requested Mr. Sorrels, our local agent in charge--he had received a copy of this circular, and I asked him to check with the district attorney's office, the Federal district attorney, to see if it was against the Federal law. At quick reading myself it didn't look like it was a violation of Federal law but I was in no position to judge it, and I could see no direct threat.

Mr. DULLES. What Federal law did you have in mind then?

Mr. LAWSON. Under our jurisdiction, sir, of protection of the President and investigation of letters or other threats in connection to the President.

Mr. DULLES. This circular that you referred to is this the advertisement in the papers?

Mr. LAWSON. No.

Mr. DULLES. Was this something different?

Mr. LAWSON. I never saw the advertisement in the paper the morning of the 22d, and the first knowledge I had of that particular advertisement was after I had returned from Dallas.

(Discussion off the record.)

Representative FORD. What page?

Mr. STERN. Exhibit 4 to the attachment of exhibits.

Mr. Lawson, I show you a one-page document marked "Commission Exhibit No. 770" for identification with two photographs of President Kennedy, and the title "Wanted for Treason." Is this a copy, a photograph of the circular you have been describing?

Mr. LAWSON. It is, sir.

Mr. STERN. May it be admitted?

Mr. McCLOY. It may be admitted.

(Commission Exhibit No. 770 was received in evidence.)

Mr. STERN. The newspaper advertisement was a series of questions addressed to President Kennedy asking why he had done certain things.

Mr. DULLES. I remember seeing it. Have you any idea as to the number of these circulars that were distributed, any estimate?

Mr. LAWSON. No sir; I have no idea how many were put out. They appeared in certain sections of the city I was told. The police told me they had no idea who had put them out or when they had been put out, and Mr. Sorrels said that some had been brought over to his office by the FBI, which is how he had known about it, and that neither he nor they knew the source of them.

Mr. DULLES. And nobody was apprehended or seen in the act of circulating these.

Mr. LAWSON. Not to my knowledge.

Mr. DULLES. By any authority as far as you know?

Mr. LAWSON. That is right.

Mr. STERN. In respect to questions like what steps are taken to assure the security of the President on the trip and how to work out liaison arrangements with local Federal and municipal authorities, what is your understanding of the division of responsibility between yourself as the advance agent and the head of the local Secret Service office?

Mr. LAWSON. The advance agent who goes out from Washington is responsible for the overall stop, for making the advance arrangements, and on the day of the movement would have authority over the other agents at the stop already or the agents accompanying the President, and of course the agent in charge of the detail coming from Washington would also have authority naturally over the agents.

However, he is just arriving in the city probably for the first time, and the advance agent would have certain knowledge about certain events and would have more authority than he does in certain respects or he would ask his advice. So that there is a boss over the agents which would be the advance agent and also the gentleman in charge of the detail coming from Washington. The local agent in charge of the local office assists the advance agent in all of his arrangements in the territory that is to be visited, and the local agent in charge conducts such investigations to assist the advance agent, and the local agent in charge would be in charge of any liaison with local officials, local police officials.

Mr. STERN. Insofar as the concern is for persons who might be dangerous or threatening to the President, the agent in charge of the Dallas office would be responsible for liaison arrangements with local authorities but you ultimately would be responsible as the delegate of the head of the White House detail, for decisions as to what steps should be taken?

Mr. LAWSON. That is correct.

Mr. DULLES. What police powers, if any, can you exercise in that situation in a sovereign State?

Mr. LAWSON. I believe the actual police powers as such would only be in the event of actual knowledge of a threat on the President's life, anything that we have jurisdiction of. If we hear of an oral threat or see a written threat on the life of the President or see someone attempt to take his life, this is our jurisdiction, and we would be able to act as such.

Mr. DULLES. You could effect an arrest.

Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir; however, anything which would fall under the jurisdiction of the local police such as firearms laws or picketing laws or disturbances or anything like that we have to depend upon the local police to use their jurisdiction.

Mr. McCLOY. Suppose the President is shot and you apprehend the murderer. Can you arrest him and put him into custody?

Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir; I could arrest him for the shooting of the President, but it is my understanding actually for the murder, no, but because he tried to take the life of the President I could.

Mr. McCLOY. I understand there may be some question, there is a gap in the law there that it fits no Federal crime.

Mr. LAWSON. I will have to refer to counsel here as to just where it stops, when it becomes murder actually where we have no jurisdiction, and an attempt on the life of the President.

Mr. DULLES. Let's take a less-clear case. If you suspected Mr. X was a man who was going to interfere with the President, although he had committed no overt act, could you move in then or would you call upon the local police?

Mr. LAWSON. If he was a suspect, sir, and we had a belief that he might try to harm the President while he was in Dallas, I would try to assign a Secret Service agent in conjunction with local police authorities, to watch him. If it was a function where it was by invitation only or there was some kind of control as to how the people got in, you would make sure that he did not get in because you were watchful of the ticketholders, et cetera.

However the function was to be handled; if it was a ball park where anyone could buy a ticket to go in, then we would just have to have the man watched, or perhaps the local police themselves somehow could keep him from going to that ball park. But I as an agent could not.

Mr. DULLES. Even if the President were in attendance in the ball park?

Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir; unless there was some reason that I could have him arrested, I would not be able to do so. But I would have him watched if I knew that there might be a threat.

Mr. DULLES. Am I asking questions that should go to counsel?

Mr. SMITH. I don't have any disagreement with what Agent Lawson has said so far.

Mr. DULLES. Is there not some confusion of jurisdiction though here?

Mr. McCLOY. Isn't the panel studying this?

Mr. STERN. We are.

Mr. McCLOY. That is what I thought. The panel is working on the law.

Mr. DULLES. You are working on the law?

Mr. STERN. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. You have got all the evidence that you want?

Mr. STERN. Yes; and there is a large area where Federal jurisdiction does not exist except on some strained theory of conspiracy. There is no substantive Federal jurisdiction with respect to great areas.

Mr. LAWSON. Might I add one thing please. The White House detail agents are supposed to protect the life of the President wherever he is. If there is a shot from the crowd or something happens, whether the President is hit or not, get him away, get him out, and still protect him. However, if you were riding on a car and actually saw someone do something, and you were able to get to that individual, you would then hold that person. But a White House detail agent would not drop the President and then go look for someone who might have tried to harm him at the time that he is there. That is not our function.

Mr. STERN. Turning now to the question of the motorcade route, Mr. Lawson, what can you tell us about how that was selected?

Mr. LAWSON. On November 8 when Mr. Kellerman was giving me some of the information on the proposed trip to Dallas, all of the advance agents for the respective stops were given the current itinerary as prepared by the White House staff for their stops, and for the Dallas stop there was a 45 minute time lapse from the time the President landed at the airport until the time that he attended the luncheon, and at the time that I left Washington, it had not been decided whether he would attend this luncheon at the Trade Mart where it later was planned to have it, or at the Women's Building on the Fair Grounds. And this figured a great deal in the parade route, the 45 minutes.

Mr. STERN. The 45 minute time interval?

Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. STERN. Was established for you by the White House?

Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. STERN. And were you specifically instructed to prepare a parade route or was this your reaction to the time lag?

Mr. LAWSON. This is my function. I wasn't specifically asked to, but this would be the function of the advance agent.

Mr. STERN. Were you instructed that there would be a motorcade?

Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. STERN. And that is what this 45 minutes was for?

Mr. LAWSON. That is correct.

Mr. STERN. How was the actual route determined then once the Trade Mart had been selected as the site for the luncheon?

Mr. LAWSON. Various routes were under consideration. We could have gone from the airport direct to the Trade Mart the way that we should have returned, the 4-mile route returning from the Trade Mart to the airport, or we could have taken a city street-type route all the way downtown and all the way back, or we could have taken a freeway downtown and a freeway back.

But the route that was chosen was chosen because it was the consensus of opinion that it was probably the best route under the circumstances. It allowed us 45 minutes to go from the airport to the Trade Mart at the speed that I figured the President would go from past experience with him in advances, and as a regular working agent riding in a followup car.

It allowed us to go downtown, which was wanted back in Washington, D.C. It afforded us wide streets most of the way, because of the buses that were in the motorcade. It afforded us a chance to have alternative routes if something happened on the motorcade route. It was the type of suburban area a good part of the way where the crowds would be able to be controlled for a great distance, and we figured that the largest crowds would be downtown, which they were, and that the wide streets that we would use downtown would be of sufficient width to keep the public out of our way. Prime consideration in a motorcade is to make sure the President isn't stopped unless he plans it himself. You must have room to maneuver, alternative routes to turn off from, room for buses and so forth, and particularly room to keep the public out of the street.

Mr. STERN. What was the extent of your review of the parade route with the local police?

Mr. LAWSON. With the local police I went over the entire route on one occasion, went to the various stops at other times and so actually did parts of the route at that time, the part of the route which would be near the stop like the airport and the Trade Mart. But the actual route I went over with two police officers from the Dallas Police Department.

Mr. McCLOY. By went over you mean you actually drove along the entire route?