Part 39

Mr. BELIN. Well, you are asking with regard to Exhibit 482? We know it was taken, I would say, not more than a minute after the shooting. This is our best recollection based on testimony of the two people in the window below, because this was their position as they saw the shooting, and the photographer himself says that after the shots were fired, he jumped out of the motorcade and took two shots of the building. This could have been the first or the second shot he took. He used two different cameras, so I don't imagine it would have been very long after the actual shots were fired.

For the record, I should add one other thing at this point. There is testimony by the deputy sheriff that found the shells, that after he found them he leaned out of the window to call down to try and tell someone that he found something, and it is conceivable that he moved a box, although he did not so testify. In other words, I don't want you to take this as the testimony of anyone----

Mr. DAY. What I am getting at, this box doesn't jibe with my picture of the inside.

Mr. BELIN. You are pointing now to the other box on Exhibit 482. You say that does not jibe with the chart that you have here that you brought with you of boxes that you had inside.

Let me ask you this: When did you prepare your chart of boxes inside?

Mr. DAY. This chart here was prepared on the 25th. However, pictures were made immediately after my arrival.

Mr. BELIN. You are talking now about Exhibit 715 and Exhibit 716?

Mr. DAY. Yes, sir; don't jibe with that box there.

Mr. BELIN. What I am asking you then is this: Is it possible that the box that is shown on Exhibit 482 is not shown on Exhibit 715 and Exhibit 716? By that I mean not the box that you see a corner of, but I am talking about the other box that is clear to the west of the easternmost window.

Mr. DAY. I just don't know. I can't explain that box there depicted from the outside as related to the pictures that I took inside.

Mr. BELIN. In other words, what you are saying is that on the sixth floor window the westernmost box on Exhibit 482, you cannot then relate to any of the boxes shown on Exhibits 715 or 716?

Mr. DAY. That is correct.

Mr. BELIN. Do you wish to correct your testimony with regard to the X you placed on the fourth box on the stack in Exhibit 716?

Mr. DAY. Yes; that is just not the same box. It is not the same box. This is the first time I have seen No. 482.

Mr. BELIN. All right. We will substitute for 716 then a copy of the picture without the X mark on it.

Mr. McCLOY. 482 was taken by the news photographer?

Mr. BELIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. Immediately after the shooting?

Mr. BELIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. The two colored men were still in the position where they were?

Mr. BELIN. Yes, sir. He actually took two pictures. He took one of the building--that showed most of the south side of the building, and another with a different kind of lens that was aimed up to that particular corner. I will check to see if I can find the other picture, Mr McCloy. Commission Exhibit 480 is the first picture that he took, or I shouldn't say the first--one of the two pictures he took.

You can see the southeast corner window on the sixth floor, and I will show you, Lieutenant Day, that you can still see two of those boxes there, and you can see on the window below, at least you can see, one of the Negro men. The other picture was Exhibit 481, and I believe 482 was actually an enlargement of 481.

Mr. DAY. I still don't quite understand that one in relation to pictures here unless something was moved after this was taken before I got there.

Mr. BELIN. What you are saving is on that southeast corner window, on the sixth floor, you do not understand the box that is the westernmost box of the two boxes in the window unless it was moved by someone before you got there to take the pictures?

Mr. DAY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What about the other box as shown on Exhibit 482, does that appear to be in substantially the same position as the box in the window shown on your Exhibit 715?

Mr. DAY. Yes, sir; it appears to be the same.

Mr. BELIN. Now, on Exhibit 715, that box appears to be almost resting against the east part of the window where it does not so appear on Exhibit 482. Is this an optical illusion on 715?

Mr. DAY. Yes, sir; I don't think it was up against the window sill. It was over as indicated on 482.

Mr. BELIN. Lieutenant Day, you took some two pictures of those shell casings. Let me first get you through all the pictures you took.

Where did you next take pictures on the sixth floor after you took the pictures of the shell casing; what did you do then?

Mr. DAY. I went, after these were taken--after your number----

Mr. BELIN. 715 and 716.

Mr. DAY. Were taken, I processed these three hulls for fingerprints, using a powder. Mr. Sims picked them up by the ends and handed them to me. I processed each of the three; did not find fingerprints. As I had finished that, Captain Fritz sent word for me to come to the northwest part of the building, the rifle had been found, and he wanted photographs.

Mr. BELIN. All right. You have mentioned these three hulls. Did you put any initials on those at all, any means of identification?

Mr. DAY. At that time they were placed in an envelope and the envelope marked. The three hulls were not marked at that time. Mr. Sims took possession of them.

Mr. BELIN. Well, did you at any time put any mark on the shells?

Mr. DAY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Let me first hand you what has been marked as "Commission Exhibit," part of "Commission Exhibit 543-544," and ask you to state if you know what that is.

Mr. DAY. This is the envelope the shells were placed in.

Mr. BELIN. How many shells were placed in that envelope?

Mr. DAY. Three.

Mr. BELIN. It says here that, it is written on here, "Two of the three spent hulls under window on sixth floor."

Mr. DAY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you put all three there?

Mr. DAY. Three were in there when they were turned over to Detective Sims at that time. The only writing on it was, "Lieut. J. C. Day." Down here at the bottom.

Mr. BELIN. I see.

Mr. DAY. "Dallas Police Department," and the date.

Mr. BELIN. In other words, you didn't put the writing in that says, "Two of the three spent hulls."

Mr. DAY. Not then. About 10 o'clock in the evening this envelope came back to me with two hulls in it. I say it came to me, it was in a group of stuff, a group of evidence, we were getting ready to release to the FBI. I don't know who brought them back. Vince Drain, FBI, was present with the stuff, the first I noticed it. At that time there were two hulls inside.

I was advised the homicide division was retaining the third for their use. At that time I marked the two hulls inside of this, still inside this envelope.

Mr. BELIN. That envelope, which is a part of Commission Exhibits 543 and 544?

Mr. DAY. Yes, sir; I put the additional marking on at that time.

Mr. BELIN. I see.

Mr. DAY. You will notice there is a little difference in the ink writing.

Mr. BELIN. But all of the writing there is yours?

Mr. DAY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Now, at what time did you put any initials, if you did put any such initials, on the hull itself?

Mr. DAY. At about 10 o'clock when I noticed it back in the identification bureau in this envelope.

Mr. BELIN. Had the envelope been opened yet or not?

Mr. DAY. Yes, sir; it had been opened.

Mr. BELIN. Had the shells been out of your possession then?

Mr. DAY. Mr. Sims had the shells from the time they were moved from the building or he took them from me at that time, and the shells I did not see again until around 10 o'clock.

Mr. BELIN. Who gave them to you at 10 o'clock?

Mr. DAY. They were in this group of evidence being collected to turn over to the FBI. I don't know who brought them back.

Mr. BELIN. Was the envelope sealed?

Mr. DAY. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Had it been sealed when you gave it to Mr. Sims?

Mr. DAY. No, sir; no.

Mr. BELIN. Handing you what has been marked "Exhibit 545," I will ask you to state if you know what this is.

Mr. DAY. This is one of the hulls in the envelope which I opened at 10 o'clock. It has my name written on the end of it.

Mr. BELIN. When you say, on the end of it, where on the end of it?

Mr. DAY. On the small end where the slug would go.

Mr. BELIN. And it has "Day" on it?

Mr. DAY. Scratched on there; yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. With what instrument did you scratch it on?

Mr. DAY. A diamond point pencil.

Mr. BELIN. Did anyone else scratch any initials on it that you know of?

Mr. DAY. I didn't see them. I didn't examine it too close at that time.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know what kind of a cartridge case that is?

Mr. DAY. It is a 6.5.

Mr. BELIN. Is that the same kind of a cartridge case that you saw when you first saw these cartridge cases?

Mr. DAY. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Is there any other testimony you have with regard to the chain of possession of this shell from the time it was first found until the time it got back to your office?

Mr. DAY. No, sir; I told you in our conversation in Dallas that I marked those at the scene. After reviewing my records, I didn't think I was on all three of those hulls that you have, indicating I did not mark them at the scene, then I remembered putting them in the envelope, and Sims taking them.

It was further confirmed today when I noticed that the third hull, which I did not give you, or come to me through you, does not have my mark on it.

Mr. BELIN. Now, I did interview you approximately 2 weeks ago in Dallas, more or less?

Mr. DAY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. At that time what is the fact as to whether or not I went into extended questions and answers as contrasted with just asking you to tell me about certain areas as to what happened? I mean, I questioned you, of course, but was it more along the lines of just asking you to tell me what happened, or more along the lines of interrogation, the interrogation we are doing now?

Mr. DAY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Which one?

Mr. DAY. Wait a minute now. Say that again. I am at a loss.

Mr. BELIN. Maybe it would be easier if I just struck the question and started all over again.

Mr. DAY. I remember you asking me if I marked them.

Mr. BELIN. Yes.

Mr. DAY. I remember I told you I did.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. DAY. I got to reviewing this, and I got to wondering about whether I did mark those at the scene.

Mr. BELIN. Your testimony now is that you did not mark any of the hulls at the scene?

Mr. DAY. Those three; no, sir.

Mr. BELIN. I believe you said that you examined the three shells today?

Mr. DAY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. While you were waiting to have your testimony taken here?

Mr. DAY. Yes, sir; that is what confirmed my thinking on this. The envelope now was marked.

Mr. BELIN. And the shells were in the same envelope that it was marked?

Mr. DAY. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Now, I am going to ask you to state if you know what Commission Exhibit 543 is?

Mr. DAY. That is a hull that does not have my marking on it.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know whether or not this was one of the hulls that was found at the School Book Depository Building?

Mr. DAY. I think it is.

Mr. BELIN. What makes you think it is?

Mr. DAY. It has the initials "G. D." on it, which is George Doughty, the captain that I worked under.

Mr. BELIN. Was he there at the scene?

Mr. DAY. No, sir; this hull came up, this hull that is not marked came up, later. I didn't send that.

Mr. BELIN. This was----

Mr. DAY. That was retained. That is the hull that was retained by homicide division when the other two were originally sent in with the gun.

Mr. BELIN. You are referring now to Commission Exhibit 543 as being the one that was retained in your possession for a while?

Mr. DAY. It is the one that I did not see again.

Mr. BELIN. It appears to be flattened out here. Do you know or have you any independent recollection as to whether or not it was flattened out at the small end when you saw it?

Mr. DAY. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. BELIN. Now, handing you what has been marked as Commission Exhibit 544, I will ask you to state if you know what this is.

Mr. DAY. This is the second hull that was in the envelope when I marked the two hulls that night on November 22.

Mr. BELIN. I have now marked this envelope, which was formerly a part of Commission Exhibits 543 and 544 with a separate Commission Exhibit No. 717, and I believe you testify now that Commission Exhibit 544 was the other shell that was in the envelope which has now been marked as Commission Exhibit No. 717.

Mr. DAY. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Does that cartridge case, Exhibit 544, have your name on it again?

Mr. DAY. It has my name on the small end where the slug would go into the shell.

Mr. BELIN. Are all of the three shells of the same caliber?

Mr. DAY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Is there any other testimony you have with regard to the cartridge cases themselves?

Mr. DAY. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Can you explain how you processed these shells for fingerprints?

Mr. DAY. With black fingerprint----

Mr. McCLOY. May I ask before you get to that, is this all your handwriting?

Mr. DAY. Yes, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. The narrative as well as the signature?

Mr. DAY. Yes, sir; this and this. That is not, this is not.

Mr. McCLOY. Who is that, what is that initial, do you know?

Mr. DAY. I think that is Vince Drain, the FBI agent it was released to. It looks like a "V. D." I don't know whether his initial is "E" or not.

Mr. McCLOY. Can you identify those marks up there, what they are?

Mr. DAY. Those "Q" numbers, I believe, are FBI numbers affixed here in Washington.

Mr. BELIN. Returning to Exhibit 717----

Mr. McCLOY. Not returning. That is what that last question was about.

Mr. BELIN. I believe the last questions were the initials on the cartridge cases. Strike the question then.

We will start all over again. On Commission Exhibit No. 717 I see some initials with the notation "11-22-63" in the upper left-hand corner as you take a look at the side which has all of your writing on it here. Do you know whose initials those are?

Mr. DAY. I think it is Vince Drain, FBI, but I am not sure.

Mr. BELIN. You think it is the initials of Vincent E. Drain?

Mr. DAY. Yes, sir; I am not sure if his middle initial is "E". I know it is Vince Drain.

Mr. BELIN. Now, on the other side I see some other initials on here with some date and time. Do you know whose initials those are?

Mr. DAY. "R. M. S." stands for R. M. Sims, the detective whom I turned it over to. That is the date and the time that he took it from me.

Mr. BELIN. What date and time does it show?

Mr. DAY. November 22, 1963, 1:23 p.m.

Mr. BELIN. Now, I believe you originally stated that you had all three of these cartridge hulls put in Exhibit 717, is that correct?

Mr. DAY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. And then you turned it over to Detective Sims?

Mr. DAY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Was the envelope sealed when you turned it over to Detective Sims?

Mr. DAY. No, sir; I don't think so.

Mr. BELIN. Did you seal it?

Mr. DAY. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. When you got the envelope back later that night was the envelope sealed?

Mr. DAY. I don't think so.

Mr. BELIN. To the best of your knowledge, had it been sealed and reopened or was it just unsealed?

Mr. DAY. To the best of my knowledge it was not sealed. It is possible I could be wrong on that, but I don't think it was sealed.

Mr. McCLOY. In order to make the record perfectly clear, at least my understanding perfectly clear, did I understand that you testified that your initial which appears on that exhibit was--not your initial but your signature which appears on that exhibit was--put on there before the other writing, namely to the effect that there were two of the three hulls enclosed, that was put on the envelope?

Mr. BELIN. You are referring, Mr. McCloy, to the signature on the bottom of Commission Exhibit 717, "Lieutenant J. C. Day."

Mr. McCLOY. That is what I am referring to.

Mr. DAY. That was put on there before.

Mr. McCLOY. That was put on there----

Mr. DAY. At 1:23 p.m.

Mr. BELIN. And the remainder of the writing was put on that night at the Dallas Police Department, is that right?

Mr. DAY. Yes, sir; about the same time that I marked those two hulls.

Mr. BELIN. Could you tell us what exactly you did in testing those hulls for fingerprints?

Mr. DAY. I used fingerprint powder, dusted them with the powder, a dark powder. No legible prints were found.

Mr. BELIN. After you did this, you dusted the prints and you put them in the envelope, 717, and then what did you do?

Mr. DAY. I released them to Detective Sims or rather he took them.

Mr. BELIN. And then what did you do?

Mr. DAY. At that time I was summoned to the northwest corner of the building.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. DAY. Sir?

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. DAY. I met Captain Fritz. He wanted photographs of the rifle before it was moved.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember if Captain Fritz told you that the rifle had not been moved?

Mr. DAY. He told me he wanted photographs before it was moved, if I remember correctly. He definitely told me it had not been moved, and the reason for the photographs he wanted it photographed before it was moved.

Mr. BELIN. I am going to hand you what the reporter has marked or what has been marked as Commission Exhibit 718, and ask you to state, if you know, what this is.

Mr. DAY. This is a photograph made by me of the rifle where it was found in the northwest portion of the sixth floor, 411 Elm Street, Dallas.

Mr. BELIN. I am going to hand you what has been marked as Commission Exhibit 719 and ask you to state if you know what that is.

Mr. DAY. It is a picture of the portion of the northwest floor where the rifle was found. This is a distance shot showing the stack of boxes.

Mr. BELIN. Is Commission Exhibit 718 a print from the same negative as Commission Exhibit 514?

Mr. DAY. The same negative?

Mr. BELIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. DAY. No, I don't think so. This is a copy of this picture.

Mr. BELIN. You are saying 514 was made, I assume, as a copy of 718. By that you mean a negative, a second negative, was made of 718 from which 514 was taken?

Mr. DAY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Otherwise it is the same?

Mr. DAY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. 718 appears to be a little clearer and sharper.

Mr. DAY. You can tell from looking at the two pictures which is the copy.

Mr. BELIN. Was any other picture of that rifle made in that position?

Mr. DAY. Nos. 22 and 23 were both made.

Mr. BELIN. Your pictures which you have marked No. 22 and No. 23 were both made, one was made by you, is that Commission Exhibit 718----

Mr. DAY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. And the other was made by----

Mr. DAY. Detective Studebaker.

Mr. BELIN. Whose knee appears?

Mr. DAY. Yes, sir; showing. Identical shots, we just made both to be sure that one of us made it, and it would be in focus.

Mr. BELIN. For this reason I am introducing only 718, if that is satisfactory.

Mr. McCLOY. Very well.

Mr. BELIN. How did you stand to take the picture, Exhibit 718?

Mr. DAY. I was on top of a stack of boxes to the south of where the gun was found.

Mr. BELIN. I wonder if you could put on Exhibit 719 the location with an "X" where you stood to take the picture, 718.

Mr. DAY. I was in that position looking this way, but you can't tell which box I was on looking from that angle.

Mr BELIN. I mean, you have placed an "X" on Exhibit 719. Were you sitting or standing on top of a stack of boxes in that general area?

Mr. DAY. Kneeling.

Mr. BELIN. Kneeling?

Mr. DAY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. In what direction would your face have been?

Mr. DAY. Facing north and down.

Mr. BELIN. Facing north and looking down?

Mr. DAY. Yes, sir; to the floor.

Mr. BELIN. Can you see the rifle at all in Exhibit 719?

Mr. DAY. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Had the rifle been removed when 719 was taken, if you know?

Mr. DAY. I don't remember.

Mr. BELIN. Could you locate with an arrow on Exhibit 719 the place where the rifle would have been?

Mr. DAY. Here.

Mr. BELIN. You have so noted with an arrow on 719. Was the rifle resting on the floor or not?

Mr. DAY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. It was?

Mr. DAY. The rifle was resting on the floor.

Mr. BELIN. What else did you do in connection with the rifle at that particular time?

Mr. DAY. Captain Fritz was present. After we got the photographs I asked him if he was ready for me to pick it up, and he said, yes. I picked the gun up by the wooden stock. I noted that the stock was too rough apparently to take fingerprints, so I picked it up, and Captain Fritz opened the bolt as I held the gun. A live round fell to the floor.

Mr. BELIN. Did you initial that live round at all?

Mr. DAY. Yes, sir; my name is on it.

Mr. BELIN. When did you place your name on this live round, if you remember?

Mr. DAY. How?

Mr. BELIN. When?

Mr. DAY. At the time, that was marked at the scene.

Mr. BELIN. Handing you Commission Exhibit No. 141. I will ask you to state if you know what this is.

Mr. DAY. It has "Day" on it where I scratched it on the small end where the slug goes into the shell.

Mr. BELIN. What is this, what is Exhibit 141?

Mr. DAY. That is the live round that fell from the rifle when Captain Fritz opened the bolt.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do with this after you put your name on it?

Mr. DAY. Captain Fritz took possession of it. I retained possession of the rifle.

Mr. BELIN. Did you process this live round at all for prints?

Mr. DAY. Yes, sir; I did. I did not find any prints.

Mr. McCLOY. Before Captain Fritz ejected the live cartridge, did you dust the rifle for fingerprints?

Mr. DAY. Not before.

Mr. BELIN. Did you dust the bolt for fingerprints?

Mr. DAY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Before the live round was ejected?

Mr. DAY. No, no; the only part that Captain Fritz touched was the round nob. I looked at it through a glass and decided there was not a print there, and it would be safe for him to open the bolt.

Mr. BELIN. You did this before it was ejected, before the live round was ejected?

Mr. DAY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Who held the rifle while you looked at it with the glass?

Mr. DAY. I held it.

Mr. BELIN. In one hand?

Mr. DAY. One hand, using the glass with the other.

Mr. BELIN. How did you try to process the live round for prints?

Mr. DAY. With black fingerprint powder.

Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you this in an effort, perhaps, to save time. In all of your processing of prints did you use anything other than this black powder at the scene that day?

Mr. DAY. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. So whenever you say you processed for prints you used black powder, is that correct?

Mr. DAY. Yes, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. When was the rifle as such dusted with fingerprint powder?

Mr. DAY. After ejecting the live round, then I gave my attention to the rifle. I put fingerprint powder on the side of the rifle over the magazine housing. I noticed it was rather rough.

I also noticed there were traces of two prints visible. I told Captain Fritz it was too rough to do there, it should go to the office where I would have better facilities for trying to work with the fingerprints.

Mr. McCLOY. But you could note with your naked eye or with a magnifying glass the remnants of fingerprints on the stock?

Mr. DAY. Yes, sir; I could see traces of ridges, fingerprint ridges, on the side of the housing.

Mr. BELIN. Lieutenant Day, as I understand it, you held the stock of the rifle when Captain Fritz operated the bolt?

Mr. DAY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Now, when you first came over to see the rifle, was it easily visible or not?

Mr. DAY. I beg pardon?

Mr. BELIN. When you first came over to see the rifle, when you were first called there, what is the fact as to whether or not it was easily visible?

Mr. DAY. No, sir; you had to look over the box and down to see it. You could not see it ordinarily walking down the aisle.

Mr. BELIN. Was anything resting on top of it?

Mr. DAY. On top of the gun?

Mr. BELIN. Yes.