Part 36

My office is badly arranged for a thing of this kind. We never had anything like this before, of course. I don't have a back door and I don't have a door to the jail elevator without having to go through that hall for 20 feet, and each time we went through that hallway to and from the jail we had to pull him through all those people, and they, of course, would holler at him and say things to him, and some of them were bad things, and some were things that seemed to please him and some seemed to aggravate him, and I don't think that helped at all in questioning him. I think that all of that had a tendency to keep him upset.

Mr. BALL. What about the interview itself?

Mr. FRITZ. Now the interview itself inside, of course, we did have a lot of people in the office there to be interviewing a man. It is much better, and you can keep a man's attention and his thoughts on what you are talking to him about better I think if there are not more than two or three people.

But in a case of this nature as bad as this case was, we certainly couldn't tell the Secret Service and the FBI we didn't want them to work on it because they would have the same interest we would have, they would want to do anything they could do, so we, of course, invited them in too but it did make a pretty big crowd.

Mr. BALL. Did you have any tape recorder?

Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; I don't have a tape recorder. We need one, if we had one at this time we could have handled these conversations far better.

Mr. BALL. The Dallas Police Department doesn't have one?

Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; I have requested one several times but so far they haven't gotten me one.

Mr. BALL. And you had quite a few interruptions, too, during the questioning, didn't you?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; we had quite a lot of interruptions. I wish we had had--under the circumstances, I don't think there is much that could have been done because I saw it as it was there and I don't think there was a lot that could have been done other than move that crowd out of there, but I think it would have been more apt to get a confession out of it or get more true facts from him if I could have got him to sit down and quietly talked with him.

Mr. BALL. While he was in your custody up to this time at 11:15, when he left your office what precautions did you take for his safety in custody?

Mr. FRITZ. In custody. We took all kinds of precautions to keep him, anyone from hurting him. We had an officer go with the jailer and back and we did everything we thought we could do.

As I told you a while ago we even put officers on the stage with him and when we couldn't do that put officers at the end of the stage with him so they could get quickly to him if anybody tried to hurt him or molest him.

Mr. BALL. In your office you always had officers with him?

Mr. FRITZ. Always, right near him.

Mr. BALL. When you went down this crowded hallway, how did you protect him?

Mr. FRITZ. There were officers went with him each time.

Mr. BALL. How many?

Mr. FRITZ. From three to six.

Mr. BALL. And in the jail, what did you do?

Mr. FRITZ. In the jail, I don't know. I didn't handle the jail.

Mr. BALL. You didn't handle the jail?

Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; I don't handle the jail. I am sure though they used more than average precautions up there.

Mr. BALL. When you left at 11:15, what was your purpose in leaving at 11:15?

Mr. FRITZ. To transfer him to the--you are talking about the 24th?

Mr. BALL. On the 24th, yes.

Mr. FRITZ. To transfer him to the county jail.

Mr. BALL. Had you been requested by Sheriff Decker to transfer him there before?

Mr. FRITZ. No, sir. I had talked to the chief about transferring him down there. The chief had called me on the 23d, on the 23d, I can't give you the exact minute, probably a little after noon, he had called me and asked me when we would be ready to transfer him and I told him we were still questioning him. We didn't want to transfer him yet. He said, "Can he be ready by about 4 o'clock? Can he be transferred by 4 o'clock?" I told him I didn't think we could.

Mr. BALL. That would be Saturday afternoon?

Mr. FRITZ. That would be the 23d, would be Saturday, yes, sir. Then he asked me could he be ready by 10 o'clock in the morning, so I could tell these people something definitely, and I felt sure we would be ready by then. However, we didn't, we ran overtime as you can see by this report, an hour and a half over, when they come over to transfer him.

Mr. BALL. Why did you say you would not be ready by 4 o'clock on Saturday?

Mr. FRITZ. We wanted to ask him some more questions, to get more information.

Mr. BALL. Did you consider transferring him at night?

Mr. FRITZ. At night?

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mr. FRITZ. During the night on Saturday night, I had a call at my home from uniformed captain, Captain Frazier, I believe is his name, he called me out at home and told me they had had some threats and he had to transfer Oswald.

And I said, well, I don't know. I said there has been no security setup, and the chief having something to do with this transfer and you had better call him, because--so he told me he would.

Mr. BALL. Did you think----

Mr. FRITZ. He called me back then in a few minutes and he told me he couldn't get the chief and told me to leave him where he was. I don't think that transferring him at night would have been any safer than transferring, may I say this?

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mr. FRITZ. Any safer than transferring him during the day. I have always felt that that was Ruby who made that call, I may be wrong, but he was out late that night and I have always felt he might have made that call, if two or three of those officers had started out with him they may have had the same trouble they had the next morning.

I don't know whether we had been transferring him ourselves, I don't know that we would have used this same method but we certainly would have used security of some kind.

Mr. BALL. Now weren't you transferring him?

Mr. FRITZ. Sir, yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What do you mean if we were transferring him ourselves?

Mr. FRITZ. I mean transferring like I was told to transfer him.

Mr. BALL. I beg your pardon?

Mr. FRITZ. I was transferring him like the chief told me to transfer him.

Mr. BALL. How would you have transferred him?

Mr. FRITZ. I did do one thing here, I should tell you about. When the chief came back and asked me if I was ready to transfer him, I told him I had already complained to the chief about the big cameras set up in the jail office and I was afraid we couldn't get out of the jail with him with all those cameras and all those people in the jail office.

So when the chief came back he asked if we were ready to transfer and I said, "We are ready if the security is ready," and he said, "It is all set up." He said, "The people are across the street, and the newsmen are all well back in the garage," and he said "It is all set."

And at that time he told me, he said, "We have got the money wagon up there to transfer him in," and I said, "Well, I don't like the idea, chief, of transferring him in a money wagon." We, of course, didn't know the driver, nor who he was, nor anything about the money wagon, and he said, "Well, that is all right. Transfer him in your car like you want to, and we will use the money wagon for a decoy, and I will have a squad to lead it up to the central expressway and across to the left on Elm Street and the money wagon can turn down Elm Street and you can turn down Main Street, when you get to Main Street, going to the county jail," and he told me he and Chief Stevenson would meet me at the county jail, that is when we started out.

Mr. BALL. How would you have done it if you were going to do it?

Mr. FRITZ. Well, I hesitate to say because it didn't work good this way. If I had done it like I would do it or usually do it or something and it hadn't worked I would be just in the same shape you know, and it would be just as bad, so I don't like to be critical of something because it turned out real bad.

You can kind of understand my--I know that our chief didn't know anything was going to happen or he surely wouldn't have told me to transfer it that way.

Mr. BALL. How would you have done it?

Mr. FRITZ. Well, we transferred Ruby the next day at about the same time, and I had two of the officers from my office to pick me up away from the office. We drove by the county jail, saw that the driveway was open. We had about the same threats on him that we did with Oswald. We saw that the driveway was open. I went back to the bus station and I called one of my officers upstairs, gave him the names of two other officers, told him to get those two officers and not tell anyone even in the office where they were going, mark Ruby transferred temporarily, which means coming to the office or going for some fingerprints or anything, mark him transferred temporarily, bring him down to the jail elevator at the bottom of the jail, put two of them to stay in the jail elevator with him. For the other one to come to the outside door and when he saw our car flush with the door, bring that man right through those cameras and put him in the back seat, and they did, they shot him right through those people and they didn't even get pictures and we had him lie down on the back seat and two officers lean back over him and we drove him straight up that same street, turned to the left down Main Street, ran him into the jail entrance, didn't even tell the jailer we were coming and put him in the jail. It worked all right.

But now if it hadn't worked, you know, I don't want to be saying that I know more about transferring than someone else, because this could happen to me. I could see if it happened to Ruby, I would have had all the blame.

Mr. BALL. Now, if on that morning at 11:15 you planned to transfer him, didn't you, according to the chief's orders?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. BALL. And you were through questioning him, weren't you?

Mr. FRITZ. Sir?

Mr. BALL. You were all through questioning him?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; we had everything that we could do at that time. I would have talked to him later in the county jail but we didn't need to hold the man any longer.

Mr. BALL. Had he been handcuffed?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; and I told--he was already handcuffed, and I told one of the officers to handcuff his left hand to Oswald's right hand, and to keep him right with him.

Mr. BALL. That was Leavelle?

Mr. FRITZ. Leavelle, yes, sir. He first started the other hand on the other side, and I told Officer Graves to get on the other side and Montgomery to follow him, and I would go down and an officer by the name of Swain who works across the hall from us came over and offered to help us, he went down the jail elevator and he went out ahead of me and I went out in back of him and I was approaching our car to open the back door to put him in, they were having a terrible time to get the car in through the people--they were crowding all over the car--and I heard the shot and I turned just in time to see the officers push Ruby to the pavement.

Mr. BALL. When you came out of the jail door were the lights on?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; the lights were on. I don't believe they were on as we came to the door, but they came out immediately as we were coming out of the door, and I asked one of the officers, two of them answered me if everything was secure and they said everything was all right. So we came out.

Mr. BALL. What about the lights?

Mr. FRITZ. The lights were almost blinding.

Mr. BALL. Did you see the people in the crowd?

Mr. FRITZ. I could see the people but I could hardly tell who they were, because of the lights. I have been wearing glasses this year and with glasses those lights don't help you facing a bright light like that, the lights were glaring.

Mr. BALL. How far ahead of Ruby were you?

Mr. FRITZ. Well. I thought they were right behind me almost but I noticed from the picture they were a little further back than I actually thought they were, probably where Mr. Baker is to this gentleman. I believe maybe a little bit farther than that, maybe about----

Mr. BALL. How far behind Oswald were you, how far behind Oswald. Oswald was behind you?

Mr. FRITZ. Behind me.

Mr. BALL. How many feet would you say?

Mr. FRITZ. In feet I would say probably 8 feet.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever know of Jack Ruby?

Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; I never did know him. I never knew him at all. Some of the officers knew him. But I never knew him.

Mr. BALL. Were there any flashbulbs or were they just steady beams of light?

Mr. FRITZ. I didn't see any flashing lights. These were steady blinding lights that I saw. That I couldn't see, you might say.

Mr. DULLES. These were television cameras?

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. BALL. Did you hear of Warren Reynolds?

Mr. FRITZ. Warren Reynolds?

Mr. BALL. Who was shot sometime afterwards?

Mr. FRITZ. Used car lot man?

Mr. BALL. Used car lot?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I talked to him. He was shot through the head.

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mr. FRITZ. I didn't talk to him very long because I didn't have to talk to him long or I didn't have to talk to him very long but he told me two or three different stories and I could tell he was a sick man and he had no doubt brain damage from that bullet and he is apt to say anything.

Mr. BALL. What did he say?

Mr. FRITZ. He told me that--he told me two or three stories, one story he told me when they first brought him into me, for me to talk to him, he told me that he saw this Ruby coming down there and he told him--he said he followed him up and saw which way he went.

Mr. BALL. Ruby?

Mr. FRITZ. Saw Oswald.

Mr. BALL. Oswald?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, Oswald, and I questioned him further and I asked him, how far, how close was the closest you were ever to him, how far were you from him? He said, well, from that car lot across the street there. Well, of course, if he had been at a car lot across the street it would be difficult to follow him on the sidewalk. It would be quite difficult so I talked to him for just a short time and I didn't bother with him any more.

I already had some history on him because the other bureau, the forgery bureau had been handling him and they had already told me a lot about him. They discounted anything that he told.

Mr. BALL. Did you find out who shot him and why he was shot?

Mr. FRITZ. This man on the car lot?

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mr. FRITZ. They think it might have been over a car deal but they are not positive and I don't know that he will ever tell them.

Mr. BALL. Have you ever discovered any connection between the shooting of Warren Reynolds and the killing?

Mr. FRITZ. Never.

Mr. BALL. The assassination of the President?

Mr. FRITZ. None at all.

Mr. BALL. The killing of Tippit?

Mr. FRITZ. No; we found nothing. We checked it.

Mr. BALL. Any connection between Oswald and Warren Reynolds or Ruby and Warren Reynolds?

Mr. FRITZ. We found no connection. We had all kinds of rumors, of course, that they were connected, and we didn't find anything.

Mr. BALL. Did you investigate it?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I had some officers investigate it, and the forgery bureau investigated him because they were already working on the shooting case. They handled all the shootings where people are not killed.

Mr. BALL. I see.

Had you originally planned to be in the motorcade, had you been ordered to be?

Mr. FRITZ. At first?

Mr. BALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. FRITZ. I had been; yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Then it was changed, what day?

Mr. FRITZ. Ten o'clock the night before the parade, I got a call at home telling me that my assignment had been changed and told me to go to the speaker's tent.

Mr. BALL. Who called you?

Mr. FRITZ. Chief Stevenson.

Mr. BALL. Do you think that made any difference?

Mr. FRITZ. I don't know. I wouldn't want to say because it is like telling about those transfers, where we would have been in that parade we would have been pretty close under that window we might have had a man shot or have good luck or bad luck.

Mr. DULLES. I didn't quite get you where were you to be in the motorcade if you had been?

Mr. FRITZ. Right behind the Vice President's car.

Mr. DULLES. Behind the Vice President's car?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. Had there been a plan for a car in front of the President's car?

Mr. FRITZ. I don't know, I didn't make the arrangements for the parade. That was only--those were the only instructions I had--was that one assignment.

Mr. BALL. Did you--do you feel any resentment toward the Secret Service or the FBI men because they were in your office?

Mr. FRITZ. Oh, no, no, because I work with them all the time.

Mr. BALL. You do?

Mr. FRITZ. Mr. Bookhout is in my office with the FBI. My books are all on the outside and they check my books as often as I do.

Mr. BALL. Well, do you think you could have done a better job perhaps if there hadn't been some investigators?

Mr. FRITZ. I don't know, that would be kind of a bad question.

Mr. BALL. I mean questioning Oswald.

Mr. FRITZ. Maybe they would have done better if I hadn't been there.

Mr. DULLES. How was the cooperation, was it pretty good between the Secret Service and the FBI?

Mr. FRITZ. We got along fine with the Secret Service and FBI a hundred percent.

Mr. McCLOY. Captain Fritz, did you have charge of the attempted shooting of General Walker?

Mr. FRITZ. No; that wasn't homicide, it would be handled by Captain Jones, it would have been the other bureau.

Mr. McCLOY. Captain Jones. Have we examined Captain Jones?

Mr. HUBERT. A deposition has been taken.

Mr. DULLES. You had nothing to do with the investigation of the Walker case?

Mr. FRITZ. Not at all. That happened to be Captain Jones and Lieutenant Cunningham.

Mr. DULLES. Did that case come up at all in any of your interrogations of Oswald? Did you ever ask him whether he was involved or anything of that sort?

Mr. FRITZ. I don't think that I ever asked him about that. If I did, I don't remember it. I don't remember asking about that, asking him about that at all. We had a little information on it but I didn't want to mix it up in that other case and I didn't want to mix it up.

Mr. McCLOY. I would like to go back some distance. When you first went into the building there.

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. And as of your knowledge, when did the first broadcast go out of a description of Oswald, according to what information you had on the subject?

Mr. FRITZ. I wouldn't have that because I hadn't heard a broadcast of a description when I went into the building. So if one went out it probably was after I went in.

Mr. McCLOY. When Mr. Truly told you that one of his men was missing?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; then he gave me a description of him.

Mr. McCLOY. And he gave you a description at that time?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes; home address.

Mr. McCLOY. That was his home address and also a description?

Mr. FRITZ. His home address and a description, what he looked like, his age, and so forth.

Mr. McCLOY. Now that description, to whom was that description given?

Mr. FRITZ. Well, I never did give it any anyone because when I got to the office he was there.

Mr. McCLOY. He was there when you got to the office?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes.

Mr. McCLOY. I understand----

Mr. FRITZ. I think I could help you a minute about that description that went out over the radio but I didn't hear it. When I got to the building, some officer there told me, said we think the man who did the shooting out of the window is a tall, white man, that is all I had. That didn't mean much you know because you can't tell five or six floors up whether a man is tall or short.

Mr. McCLOY. Did you question the colored men that were on the fifth floor?

Mr. FRITZ. I talked to part of them. Most of them were questioned by the other officers, investigating officers I had assigned there; yes, sir. I talked to very few of them. I did do this. I did assign an officer to take affidavits from all of those people.

Mr. McCLOY. Were you present at the showup at which Brennan was the witness?

Mr. FRITZ. Brennan?

Mr. McCLOY. Brennan was the alleged----

Mr. FRITZ. Is that the man that the Secret Service brought over there, Mr. Sorrels brought over?

Mr. McCLOY. I don't know whether Mr. Sorrels----

Mr. FRITZ. I don't think I was present but I will tell you what, I helped Mr. Sorrels find the time that that man--we didn't show that he was shown at all on our records, but Mr. Sorrels called me and said he did show him and he wanted me to give him the time of the showup. I asked him to find out from his officers who were with Mr. Brennan the names of the people that we had there, and he gave me those two Davis sisters, and he said, when he told me that, of course, I could tell what showup it was and then I gave him the time.

Mr. McCLOY. But you were not present to the best of your recollection when Brennan was in the showup?

Mr. FRITZ. I don't believe I was there, I doubt it.

Mr. McCLOY. Did you ever inspect these premises on Neely Street?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I did. With the Secret Service. We went over there and we searched that apartment thoroughly. It was vacant. The man came over that owned it, opened the house for us, we searched it thoroughly and went through the yard and made some pictures in the backyard exactly like that with another man, of course, holding the papers.

Mr. McCLOY. Are the pictures in the record?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; we have them in the record, the ones we made over there. I suppose you have them here.

Mr. McCLOY. Do we have the pictures?

Mr. BALL. I don't believe we have any pictures that you made.

Mr. FRITZ. Of the one we made over in the backyard.

Mr. McCLOY. I think it is important we get those because of the charge this picture was doctored. Have a picture of the premises which these pictures were taken.

Mr. BALL. Maybe Lieutenant Day has them.

Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; those pictures were made with--we have them, I am sure of that, our men made the pictures. I believe we have them right here. Maybe we didn't bring them, but we have them.

Mr. BALL. Could you send them to us?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes; Lieutenant Day may have some with him. His men have them.

Mr. BALL. Maybe Lieutenant Day has them. I have a few questions here. You mentioned that Hosty, the first day he was there you said that he said he knows these people. Did he tell you that he knew Oswald?

Mr. FRITZ. Well, I will tell you, he wasn't talking to me really.

Mr. BALL. What did he say to Oswald?

Mr. FRITZ. That was the agent--what did Hosty say to Oswald?

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mr. FRITZ. Or what did----

Mr. BALL. Did Hosty say?

Mr. FRITZ. I thought you meant what about Shanklin said to Hosty.

Mr. BALL. Did Hosty say to you that he knew Oswald?

Mr. FRITZ. I heard Mr. Shanklin tell Mr. Hosty on the telephone. I had Mr. Bookhout pick up the telephone and I had an extension.

Mr. BALL. What did he hear?

Mr. FRITZ. He said is Hosty in that investigation, Bookhout said no. He said, "I want him in that investigation right now because he knows those people he has been talking to," and he said some other things that I don't want to repeat, about what to do if he didn't do it right quick. So I didn't tell them that I even knew what Mr. Shanklin said. I walked out there and called them in.

Mr. BALL. Was Oswald handcuffed at all times during the interrogation?

Mr. FRITZ. I believe he was; yes, sir, I believe we kept him handcuffed at all times. The first time we brought him in he was handcuffed with his hands behind him and he was uncomfortable and I had the officers change them and put his hands up front.

Mr. BALL. Was he fed any time during that day?