Part 35

Mr. FRITZ. He told me he had got it about 6 or 7 months before in Fort Worth but he wouldn't tell me where he got it. When I asked him a little further about that he told me he didn't want to talk any further about the pistol.

Mr. BALL. Did the FBI, did any FBI agent question him that morning?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; Mr. Bookhout asked a few questions along, I don't remember just exactly what they asked, but he asked him a few questions.

Mr. BALL. Was there any further questioning about an attorney, whether or not he wanted a lawyer and who he wanted?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; there probably was because I talked to him about a lawyer a number of times and he said he didn't want the local attorneys, some attorney had been up to see him after one of these questionings, and he said he didn't want him at all. He wanted Mr. Abt. And he couldn't get him and I told you about the ones there in the American Civil Liberties Union.

Mr. BALL. Didn't he tell you at one time he didn't want to answer any questions until he talked to his lawyer?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; he told me that two or three times.

Mr. BALL. This morning he told you that, didn't he?

Mr. FRITZ. He probably did.

Mr. BALL. Look on your notes there on the page 137D and see whether or not that refreshes your memory? (Commission Document 81B.)

Mr. FRITZ. 137G?

Mr. BALL. 137D.

Mr. FRITZ. I told him--you know he had told me he could not use the telephone because he didn't have the money to pay for a call. I told him he could call collect from the jail to call anyone he wanted to, and I believe at that time he probably thanked me for that.

But I told him that we allowed all prisoners to do that.

Mr. BALL. Did he say he didn't have money enough?

Mr. FRITZ. He told me that but as I said I told him he didn't need the money, he could call him collect, and use the jail phone, telephone.

Mr. BALL. What did he say?

Mr. FRITZ. That seemed to please him all right, because he evidently did because the next time I saw him he thanked me for letting him use the phone, but I told him it wasn't a favor; everyone could do that.

Mr. DULLES. Do you know who he called?

Mr. FRITZ. I don't know, I wasn't there.

Mr. DULLES. Is there any record?

Mr. FRITZ. I don't believe there would be. I think you give him the use of the telephone and they could call when they wanted to. He could have called half a dozen people if he wanted to.

Mr. DULLES. He couldn't make a long distance call, could he? I suppose he could if he called collect.

Mr. FRITZ. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Was Mr. Kelley of the Secret Service present at this time, this morning?

Mr. FRITZ. He was there most of the time after the 22d. He wasn't there on the 22d.

Mr. BALL. This is the morning of the 23d we are talking about.

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; he was there, yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever ask him what he thought of President Kennedy or his family?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I asked him what he thought of the President.

Mr. BALL. What did he say?

Mr. FRITZ. What he thought about the family--he said he didn't have any particular comment to make about the President.

He said he had a nice family, that he admired his family, something to that effect. At one time, I don't have this in my report, but at one time I told him, I said, "You know you have killed the President, and this is a very serious charge."

He denied it and said he hadn't killed the President.

I said he had been killed. He said people will forget that within a few days and there would be another President.

Mr. DULLES. Did he say anything about Governor Connally?

Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; I don't think I questioned him about the Governor at that time. I might have asked him at one time. I remember telling him at one time he shot the Governor.

Mr. DULLES. Will you give us that?

Mr. FRITZ. He denied shooting any of them.

Mr. DULLES. Did he express any antipathy for or friendship for----

Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; he didn't. He didn't express--during one of Mr. Hosty's talks with him he had talked to him about Governor Connally, and about some letters but that information I don't have. That is something Mr. Hosty will have to tell you about.

Mr. BALL. Your notes show at 11:33 he went back to the jail and about an hour later at 12:35 he was brought back.

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. In your office for another interview.

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. In which Mr. Kelley of the Secret Service was present?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. Are we now on Saturday noon?

Mr. BALL. Yes, sir; this is noon about 12:35.

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. In the meantime your officers had brought back from Irving some pictures that they found in the garage, hadn't they?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And you had had them blown up, hadn't you?

Mr. FRITZ. That is right.

Mr. BALL. What pictures--and you showed Oswald a picture at this time?

Mr. FRITZ. A picture of him holding a rifle and wearing the pistol. It showed a picture of him holding a rifle and wearing the pistol. I showed him first an enlarged picture.

Mr. BALL. I will show you Commission Exhibit No. 135.

Mr. FRITZ. That is the picture.

Mr. BALL. That is the picture you showed him?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; that is a similar picture, that is a copy of the picture I showed him.

Mr. BALL. You had had your laboratory enlarge the picture that your men had brought back from Irving?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; he said that wasn't his picture, he said, "I have been through that whole deal with all people in the cameras," he said, "One has taken my picture and that is my face and put a different body on it." He said, I know all about photography, I worked with photography for a long time. That is a picture that someone else has made. I never saw that picture in my life."

I said, "Wait just a minute, and I will show you one you have seen probably," and I showed him the little one this one was made from and when I showed him the little one he said, "I never have seen that picture, either." He said, "That is a picture that has been reduced from the big one."

Mr. BALL. I show you Commission No. 133, is that the small picture?

Mr. FRITZ. The small picture; yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. A picture of the small picture?

Mr. FRITZ. A picture of the small picture, I guess this is.

Mr. BALL. There are two pictures on 133. Which one was it?

Mr. FRITZ. On the left.

Mr. BALL. The one on the left?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; the one holding the two papers.

Mr. BELIN. As you face the picture?

Mr. BALL. As you face the picture the one on the left? [Exhibit No. 133-A.]

Mr. FRITZ. There is a lot of questioning in our mind about the time of this middle day questioning here. We checked it over and over and we can't be sure about the time and I don't want to go on record as not knowing whether this time is correct because it might not be.

Mr. BALL. You mean 12:35?

Mr. FRITZ. 12:35.

Mr. BALL. But you do know this conversation----

Mr. FRITZ. I do know we talked to him a number of times all along, and these questions and answers are right, but the times may be off.

Mr. BALL. You did show him this picture, a picture of Oswald with a rifle and pistol?

Mr. FRITZ. I showed him that at one of those interviews, yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And he denied that that was a picture of him.

Mr. FRITZ. That is true; yes, sir; that is right.

Mr. BALL. There was another showup that afternoon at 2:15?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. At which time two cabdrivers, one named Scoggins and one named Whaley were shown Oswald. Were you present at that showup?

Mr. FRITZ. I don't think so. I will look and see right quickly but I don't think I was. That would have been on the 23d.

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mr. FRITZ. That shows him--M. G. Hall--wait a minute, I am in the wrong one, pardon me. Showup No. 4, shows Officers V. S. Hinkel, Walter Potts, M. G. Hall, C. W. Brown, and J. R. Leavelle who was with the people handling the showup.

Mr. BALL. Your records also show that you were brought--he was brought to your office again at 6 o'clock?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Will you look at page 138B of your notes. (Commission Document 81B) Was that the time you talked to him about the rifle?

Mr. FRITZ. 6 o'clock?

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mr. FRITZ. That is when I showed an enlarged picture, yes, sir, that is what I show here, yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. In the meantime you had gone out to Neely Street, hadn't you, to try to determine whether or not this was the place for the rifle?

Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; we didn't find that out until some time later.

Mr. BALL. You didn't?

Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; we had heard of the Neely Street address but we didn't know that that was the place where the picture was taken. But later on, Mr. Sorrels and some of the Secret Service men called me and they had found out, I believe from Marina, that that is where the picture was made and they called me and asked me to go with them and we made some other pictures out there to show the place.

Mr. BALL. On this evening at 6 o'clock who was present at the questioning?

Mr. FRITZ. At the questioning, just a minute.

Mr. DULLES. What is the reference to the Marines?

Mr. BALL. Marina.

Mr. DULLES. Marina, I didn't catch it.

Mr. BALL. Who was present at that, do you remember, on 6 o'clock on Saturday evening, the 23d? See page 138B.

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I believe Mr. Bookhout, Inspector Kelley, myself, and officers.

Mr. McCLOY. This was an interrogation?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Was that the time when he told you, someone superimposed the picture on his face?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; that is right.

Mr. BALL. After he had talked to you a while he told you he didn't want to talk to you any more, didn't he?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Look on the second page, 138C, and tell me what happened. Give me in your own words what occurred there.

Mr. FRITZ. You mean about the picture?

Mr. BALL. Tell me in your own words, yes.

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; at that time he told me that--the first of the page up here is when he told me he didn't want to answer more questions. "I just told you about that but you want to know something else about this other party."

Mr. BALL. You talked to him sometime later.

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I showed him this map, showed him a map of the city of Dallas that he had, and the map had been brought in from his address on North Beckley, and he told me that those markings, they had several markings on this map, one of them was near----

Mr. BALL. Wait a minute, isn't that the next morning? We are talking about Saturday night now, you have told us about showing him the enlarged photograph.

Mr. FRITZ. I show 9:30 the morning of the 24th.

Mr. BALL. I am talking about the night.

Mr. FRITZ. All right.

Mr. DULLES. 6:30 at night.

Mr. BALL. 6:30 in the evening.

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You showed him the photographs?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; pictures.

Mr. BALL. And he told you they weren't his?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What did he tell you then? Didn't he tell you then he didn't want to answer any more questions?

Mr. FRITZ. Let's see if he did.

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mr. FRITZ. That is the time that he told me about the photography, that he knew all about photography, and then he said, he didn't want to answer any more questions.

Mr. BALL. What time did you put him back in jail?

Mr. FRITZ. 7:15 p.m.

Mr. BALL. And you didn't see him again that night?

Mr. FRITZ. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, the next morning you checked him out of jail?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; the 24th we had him down in the morning, yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Who was present that time?

Mr. FRITZ. That time here at 9:30 in the morning, one of the postal inspectors, Mr. Holmes, Mr. Sorrels, Mr. Bookhout, and I am not sure about Mr. Sorrels staying in there all the time. He was in there part of the time, and that is the time that I showed him the map, too, that morning with these markings on it.

Mr. BALL. What did he say?

Mr. FRITZ. Well, he said they didn't mean anything. Those markings were places he had gone looking for work. I asked him at that time, too, more about his religious beliefs, and Inspector Kelley asked him what he thought about religion and he said he didn't think too much of it. I believe he said of the philosophy of religion.

So he asked him two or three other questions and he was a little evasive so I asked him if he believed in a deity. He said he didn't care to discuss that with me.

Mr. BALL. What else was said?

Mr. FRITZ. I asked him, too, I believe on that same morning, I asked him more about his political beliefs and he told me he didn't belong to any political party and he told me he was a Marxist but that he wasn't a Marxist-Leninist, that he was just a Marxist, and that he again told me that he believed in the Castro revolution. That is the morning of the transfer.

Mr. BALL. You asked him about the gun again, didn't you?

Mr. FRITZ. I asked him about a lot of things that morning, I sure did.

Mr. BALL. Tell us about it.

Mr. FRITZ. He denied anything about Alek Hidell, and again about his belief in the Fair Play for Cuba.

Mr. BALL. What about the rifle?

Mr. FRITZ. I asked him about the Neely Street address and he denied that address. He denied having a picture made over there and he even denied living there. I told him he had people who visited him over there and he said they were just wrong about visiting.

Mr. BALL. Did you ask him again about the rifle, did you ask him if that was the picture, that that rifle was his?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I am sure I did.

Mr. BALL. Look at your notes.

Mr. FRITZ. All right, sir. Yes, sir; I did. I asked him again if that was his picture holding the rifle and he said it was not.

Mr. BALL. What did he say?

Mr. FRITZ. He denied it. He said he didn't have any knowledge of the picture at all. He said someone else had made it, he didn't know a thing about it or the rifle.

Mr. BALL. Didn't you also that same morning again ask him if he brought a sack with him to work on the morning the President was killed?

Mr. FRITZ. Well, I asked him. I believe that morning I might have asked him that. I believe I asked him about the sack.

Mr. BALL. Without looking at your notes there let me ask you this.

Mr. FRITZ. All right.

Mr. BALL. When you did ask him about the sack, you did ask him about it, a sack at one time bringing a sack to work that morning?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes; I did.

Mr. BALL. And you asked him the size and shape of the sack, didn't you?

Mr. FRITZ. He never admitted bringing the sack. I showed him the size probably in asking him if he brought a sack that size and he denied it. He said he brought his lunch was all he brought.

Mr. BALL. Didn't he say when you asked him the size and shape of the sack that he had with him, he said, "I don't recall, it may have been a small sack or a large sack. You don't always find one that fits your sandwiches," something like that.

Mr. FRITZ. That might be true but he said it was a small sack. He said it was a lunch sack.

Mr. BALL. Didn't you ask him where he usually kept his sacks, how he carried it when he came to work in the car?

Mr. FRITZ. I asked him where he had the sack--his lunch, and he said he had it in the front seat with him.

Mr. BALL. Did you ask him if he put any sack in the back seat?

Mr. FRITZ. He said he did not.

Mr. BALL. Did you tell him that Frazier had told you that he had had a long parcel and placed it in the back seat?

Mr. FRITZ. I am not sure about saying Frazier, I am looking at this note to see if I did.

Mr. BALL. The driver of the car----

Mr. FRITZ. I remember telling him that someone told me that and I might have told him that two people saw him because not only Frazier but Frazier's sister saw that package, you know, and I did question him about that.

Mr. BALL. Did he say anything like this? "He might be mistaken or perhaps thinking about some other time when he picked me up."

Mr. FRITZ. That is probably right.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember that?

Mr. FRITZ. I don't remember it this time but if it is in that note that is probably right.

Mr. BALL. On the curtain rods story, do you remember whether you ever asked him if he told Frazier that he had curtain rods in the package?

Mr. FRITZ. If I asked him what, please, sir?

Mr. BALL. Did you ever ask Oswald whether or not he had told Frazier that he had curtain rods in the package?

Mr. FRITZ. I am sure I did but I can't remember that right now. But I am sure I asked him that because I must have asked him that because I asked him a lot of questions, I asked him if he was fixing his house, I remember asking about that, and he said he was not.

Mr. BALL. He said he was what?

Mr. FRITZ. He was not.

Mr. BALL. He said he was not fixing it?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Do you know what he said in reply to your question?

Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; I don't remember what he said about that.

Mr. BALL. Was he questioned about post office boxes that morning?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I did, I asked him about those post office boxes, because the postal inspector had told us about those boxes, and Mr. Holmes did most of the talking to him about the boxes, and he knew about the boxes and where they were, and he said he had, and I asked him too if he had ordered a rifle to be shipped to one of those boxes, and he said he had not, to one of those box numbers.

Mr. BALL. Did you ask him why he had the boxes?

Mr. FRITZ. He told me that he had, one of the boxes, if I remember correctly, he never admitted owning at all. The other box he told me he got his, he kept to get his mail, that he said he got some papers from Russia and correspondence with people from Russia and he used that box for his mail.

Mr. BALL. How long did you talk to him this morning of November 24?

Mr. FRITZ. Morning, well, let's see, I am not sure what time we started talking to him.

Mr. BALL. 9:30.

Mr. FRITZ. 9:30, we talked to him then until about--I have the exact time here.

Mr. BALL. Can we cut it shorter, your records show 11:15 in your office.

Mr. FRITZ. Here it is, 11:15.

Mr. BALL. Is that right?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. First of all, I am going to go through some generally without identifying the particular place but just the subject matter.

In an interview with him you did ask him about the pistol, didn't you?

Mr. FRITZ. Which pistol, the one he shot Tippit with?

Mr. BALL. The one he had with him when he was arrested.

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I asked him about it, yes, I did.

Mr. BALL. You asked him when he got it and where he got it?

Mr. FRITZ. He said he bought it in Fort Worth about 6 or 7 months ago.

Mr. BALL. How long ago?

Mr. FRITZ. 6 or 7 months.

Mr. BALL. Did he tell you where in Fort Worth?

Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; he wouldn't tell me.

Mr. BALL. Did you ask him?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I asked him.

Mr. BALL. What did he say?

Mr. FRITZ. He just wouldn't tell me.

Mr. BALL. Did you ask him why he had five live .38 caliber bullets in his shirt?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes; in his pocket?

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mr. FRITZ. No; I didn't ask him that.

Mr. BALL. You didn't ask him that?

Mr. FRITZ. No.

Mr. BALL. Now you did ask him about the photograph, his photograph, the photograph that was found in his garage?

Mr. FRITZ. That is right.

Mr. BALL. That shows him with a rifle and pistol?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes.

Mr. BALL. What did he say?

Mr. FRITZ. He said it was not his picture at all.

Mr. BALL. You did ask him if he had purchased a rifle from Klein's store in Chicago, Ill., didn't you?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes; I did.

Mr. BALL. What did he say?

Mr. FRITZ. He said he did not.

Mr. BALL. You did ask him how he explained the photograph, didn't you?

Mr. FRITZ. How he explained the photograph?

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mr. FRITZ. I asked him about the photograph and he said someone else took it. It wasn't his picture at all. He said someone in the hall had taken his picture and made that photograph.

Mr. BALL. In other words, he said the face was his face but the picture was made by somebody superimposing his face?

Mr. FRITZ. That is right; yes.

Mr. BALL. He denied ever having lived on Neely Street, did he?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; he did.

Mr. BALL. And you asked him also if he had ever owned a rifle?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What did he say?

Mr. FRITZ. He said he had not. He said a long time ago he owned a small rifle.

Mr. BALL. What size did he say?

Mr. FRITZ. He didn't say. He said small rifle.

Mr. BALL. Did you ask him if he kept a rifle in Mrs. Paine's garage at Irving, Tex.?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; and I asked him if he brought it from New Orleans and he said no.

Mr. BALL. Did you ask him where he kept, if he did keep a rifle in a blanket?

Mr. FRITZ. I asked him if he kept it in a blanket and he said no.

Mr. BALL. Didn't you tell him someone told you he had kept it there?

Mr. FRITZ. Someone told me he had a rifle and wrapped in a blanket and kept it in the garage and he said he didn't. It wasn't true.

Mr. BALL. Did he at any time tell you when you asked him if he owned a rifle, did he say, "How could I afford to order a rifle on my salary of a dollar and a quarter an hour," something like that?

Mr. FRITZ. I don't remember that.

Mr. BALL. You asked him whether or not he shot President Kennedy, didn't you?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What did he say?

Mr. FRITZ. He said he did not.

Mr. BALL. And you asked him if he shot Governor Connally?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; he said he didn't do that, he said he didn't shoot Tippit.

Mr. BALL. With reference to where he was at the time the President was shot, did he tell you what floor of the building he was on?

Mr. FRITZ. I feel sure that he told me he was on the second floor.

Mr. BALL. Look at 136B.

Mr. FRITZ. All right, sir.

Mr. BALL. The second paragraph down, 136B.

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; second floor; yes, sir. He said he usually worked on the first floor. I asked him what part of the building at the time the President was shot. He said he was having lunch at about this time on the first floor.

Mr. BALL. In his first interview you say that Hosty asked him if he had been to Mexico.

Mr. FRITZ. Yes; he did.

Mr. BALL. He denied it. Did he say he had been at Tijuana once?

Mr. FRITZ. I don't remember him saying he had been at Tijuana.

Mr. BALL. What did you remember him saying?

Mr. FRITZ. I remember him saying he had been to Russia, told me he had been to Russia, and was over there for some time, and he told Hosty that he had a record of that, knew he had been there, told him a number of things so far as that is concerned.

Mr. BALL. What did he say about Mexico?

Mr. FRITZ. Mexico, I don't remember him admitting that he had been to any part of Mexico.

Mr. BALL. What do you remember him saying?

Mr. FRITZ. I remember he said he did not go to Mexico City and I don't remember him saying he ever went to Tijuana.

Mr. BALL. In your report at 138E you have made a statement there of the conditions under which this interrogation proceeded, haven't you?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes; I did.

Mr. BALL. Will you tell us about that. You can describe it either as you state it here in your own words, but tell us what your difficulties were?

Mr. FRITZ. I can tell you in just a minute. My office is small as you know, it is a small office, it doesn't have too much room to begin with.

With all the outer office full of officers who all wanted to help and we were glad to have their assistance and help, and we appreciate it, but in the hallway we had some 200 news reporters and cameramen with big cameras and little cameras and cables running on the floors to where we could hardly get in and out of the office.

In fact, we had to get two police officers assigned to the front door to keep them out of the office so we could work.