Part 34

Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; I don't know who chose those people.

Mr. BALL. Don Braswell and John Abel.

Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; that would be done by my officers.

Mr. BALL. And you don't think you were present at that?

Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; I don't believe so.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever ask him if he had kept a rifle in the garage at Irving?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I did. I asked him and I asked him if he had brought one from New Orleans. He said he didn't.

Mr. BALL. He did not.

Mr. FRITZ. That is right.

I told him the people at the Paine residence said he did have a rifle out there, and he kept it out there and he kept it wrapped in a blanket and he said that wasn't true.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember when that was that you asked him?

Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; during some of those questions.

Mr. BALL. It was after Stovall and Adamcik had come back?

Mr. FRITZ. I believe so.

Mr. BALL. Now, during the evening, did you question him some more?

Mr. FRITZ. Well, I am sure that I did. Let me see.

Mr. BALL. It shows he was fingerprinted at 8:55.

Mr. FRITZ. I probably talked to him a little bit more after that. It shows he was fingerprinted at what time?

Mr. BALL. 8:55. Or 9 o'clock, around 9 o'clock. Fingerprinted, at that time there was a paraffin test of the hands and face.

Mr. FRITZ. I don't believe he was fingerprinted. I think we made the paraffin test in my office.

Mr. BALL. There was a paraffin test.

Mr. FRITZ. I allowed them to use any office right there to make a paraffin test.

Mr. BALL. And your records show he was fingerprinted there, too.

Mr. FRITZ. It is possible, I didn't stay there with him. He could have. I don't think they fingerprinted him at that time. I wouldn't see any need for it.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever talk--you remember Wesley Frazier who came into the department and made a statement, do you, the boy who----

Mr. FRITZ. I think I remember some man. I believe that is his correct name, some man who came in with some story about seeing Oswald run from the building.

Mr. BALL. No.

Mr. FRITZ. That is not the one?

Mr. BALL. A boy who lived in Irving who drove Oswald weekends back and forth from Irving.

Mr. FRITZ. Yes.

Mr. BALL. You remember you talked to him that night and he told about a package that Oswald carried into the Texas School Book Depository Building that morning.

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; that is right.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember what that was?

Mr. FRITZ. He said he asked him what it was and he told him it was curtain rods.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever talk to Oswald about that?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. BALL. When?

Mr. FRITZ. I talked to him about that on the last morning before his transfer.

Mr. BALL. That was on Sunday morning?

Mr. FRITZ. Sunday morning, that would be the 24th, wouldn't it?

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mr. FRITZ. And I asked him about that and he denied having anything to do with any curtain rods. It is possible that I could have asked him that on one of those other times, too, but I know I asked him that question the last morning.

Mr. BALL. Well, you learned about it on Friday night according to your reports here when Mr. Frazier came in and you gave Frazier a polygraph test.

Mr. FRITZ. I hesitated to ask him about those curtain rods and I will tell you why I hesitated, because I wanted to find out more about that package before I got started with the curtain rods because if there were curtain rods I didn't want to mention it to him but we couldn't find--I talked to his wife and asked her if they were going to use any curtain rods, while I was talking to her that afternoon and she didn't know anything about it.

No; I believe I talked to Mrs. Paine, one of them.

Mr. BALL. Do you think you talked to Oswald before Sunday morning about curtain rods?

Mr. FRITZ. It is possible but I know I talked to him Sunday morning.

Mr. BALL. Now, did you tell him what Frazier had told you?

Mr. FRITZ. I don't know that I told him what Frazier had told me but I told him someone had told me.

Mr. BALL. What did you tell him?

Mr. FRITZ. I told him he had a package and put it in the back seat and it was a package about that long and it was curtain rods. He said he didn't have any kind of a package but his lunch. He said he had his lunch and that is all he had, and Mr. Frazier told me that he got out of the car with that package, he saw him go toward the building with this long package.

I asked him, I said, "Did you go toward the building carrying a long package?" He said, "No. I didn't carry anything but my lunch."

Mr. BALL. Did Frazier ever tell you how long the package was?

Mr. FRITZ. He just measured, told me about that long.

Mr. BALL. Approximately how long?

Mr. FRITZ. I am guessing at this, the way he measured, probably 26 inches, 27 inches, something like that. Too short for the length of that rifle unless he took it down, I presume he took it down if it was in there, and I am sure it was.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember what time you--was it the way Frazier showed it to you--was it the size of a rifle that was broken down?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; it would be just about right.

Mr. BALL. Later that night you took him down to the showuproom again, didn't you, when you had a press interview?

Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; I didn't have a press conference.

Mr. BALL. You didn't?

Mr. FRITZ. No.

Mr. BALL. Did you give any instructions to the press conference?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; the chief told me he wanted him brought down for a press conference, and I told my officers to take them down and I asked the chief to let me put it on the stage. I was a little bit afraid something might happen to him in front of that stage, someone in the crowd might hurt him but he said no, he wanted him out there in the front, and I told him I would like to put him on the stage so that the officers could jerk him inside the jail office if anything happened but he said no, he wanted him in front, so I told the officers to take him down.

I went down later to see how everything was going but I couldn't get in. The crowd had jammed clear back out into the hall.

Mr. BALL. Do you know what time you sent him up to the jail?

Mr. FRITZ. I have it here, I think--12:05; yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. 12:05?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. May I ask you a question?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. Where was the--where did you first see the gun that was presumably used in the murder of Tippit?

Mr. FRITZ. Of Tippit?

Mr. McCLOY. Tippit, yes; .38-caliber pistol.

Mr. FRITZ. The officers brought that in, you know, when they brought him in from the arrest at Oak Cliff.

Mr. McCLOY. And they had that, you had seen it at about the time you first saw Oswald?

Mr. FRITZ. Well, a few minutes later.

Mr. McCLOY. A few minutes later?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. It did show signs from your experience of having been recently fired?

Mr. FRITZ. I don't believe you can tell about that too well any more. You know the old style ammunition you could tell if a gun had been fired recently by the residue left in the barrel and smelling the barrel, but with the new ammunition they don't have that.

Mr. McCLOY. And this was new ammunition that he was using?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; he was using new ammunition.

Mr. McCLOY. Was the gun fully loaded when it was taken from him?

Mr. FRITZ. I didn't see it loaded, of course, it would have been unloaded. I understood it was fully loaded, but I didn't see it.

Mr. DULLES. That is he had replaced the bullets that he had used, is that it?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; the people told us as he ran across the yard he was reloading the gun as he ran across the yard. Yes; the witnesses told us that.

Mr. McCLOY. If I can take you back a little further also.

Mr. FRITZ. All right, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. Did you see the gun in the position, the rifle I am talking about now.

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. Did you see the rifle in the position in which it was found?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. McCLOY. Where was it found?

Mr. FRITZ. It was found back near the stairway in a little--some boxes were stacked about this far apart, about that far apart. The rifle was down on the floor and partially under these boxes back near the stairway in the corner of the building.

Mr. McCLOY. This was on the sixth floor?

Mr. FRITZ. Sixth floor; yes, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. Nobody had touched it by the time you saw it?

Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; nobody touched it. They called me as soon as they saw it and I went back there and I saw it.

Mr. McCLOY. Then you say the rifle was then dusted?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. Does that mean the laboratory people had already come there then?

Mr. FRITZ. He came down from where he had been; he was on the same floor checking the empty cartridges, and he came back.

Mr. McCLOY. Oh, yes.

Mr. FRITZ. To the back, when I called him, and he came back there and checked the rifle; yes, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. When you went up to the sixth floor from which Oswald apparently had fired these shots, what did it look like there, what was the--how were things arranged there? Was there anything in the nature of a gun rest there or anything that could be used as a gun rest?

Mr. FRITZ. You mean up in the corner where he shot from, from the window?

Mr. McCLOY. Yes.

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; there were some boxes stacked there and I believe one box, one small box I believe was in the window, and another box was on the floor. There were some boxes stacked to his right that more or less blinded him from the rest of the floor. If anyone else had been on the floor I doubt if they could have seen where he was sitting.

Mr. McCLOY. Did you see anything other----

Mr. FRITZ. Lieutenant Day, of course, made a detailed description of all of that and he can give it to you much better than I can.

Mr. McCLOY. He is going to be here?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; and he will give it to you in detail; yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. When was the paper bag covering that apparently he brought the rifle in, was that discovered in the sixth floor about the same time?

Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; that was recovered a little later. I wasn't down there when that was found.

Mr. DULLES. It was recovered on the sixth floor, was it not?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I believe so. We can check here and see. I believe it was. But I wasn't there when that was recovered.

Mr. BALL. Here is a picture of Commission Exhibit 514.

Mr. FRITZ. That is the--do I have it turned around?

Mr. BALL. Do you recognize it?

Mr. FRITZ. That is it.

Mr. BALL. Is that the scene that was photographed by the crime lab group?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; that is right. But there is one thing that this picture is a little bit deceiving in one way. This picture is taken with a man standing, no doubt, on boxes up high like this, standing down level on the floor. This gun was partially under the end of those boxes right there. You see the camera evidently took a picture under like that, and he got a little more gun than you would see if you were standing on the floor.

Mr. BALL. I want to ask you about a showup.

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Callaway and Guinyard and McWatters. You did you say you were present at that showup? That is No. 2.

Mr. FRITZ. No. 2 showup. I show there Leavelle, Brown, and Dougherty. It doesn't show that I was at that showup.

Mr. BALL. You were at that showup?

Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; it doesn't show.

Mr. BALL. Did you talk to Callaway before he went to the showup?

Mr. FRITZ. Callaway--I will have to look there to see. Can you tell me something about what he has testified?

Mr. BALL. Callaway is a tall blond man, he was a used car salesman, used carlot on the corner of Patton and Jefferson.

Mr. FRITZ. I believe Officer Leavelle talked to him. Any of these witnesses when I say I didn't talk to them, that doesn't mean I didn't go out and say something to them but I didn't question them.

Mr. BALL. Did you say to anyone of these witnesses, "We think we have got the man that killed Tippit and he is probably the man who killed the President"? Anything like that?

Mr. FRITZ. I don't remember saying anything like that.

Mr. BALL. Did you say, "I want you to look at him good because we want to make the identification."

Mr. FRITZ. Oh, no. We didn't need to. The first witness that went down with me convinced me on the Tippit killing.

Mr. McCLOY. That is Mrs. Markham?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes; Helen Markham. And she was a real good witness and she identified him positively and picked him out in a manner that you could tell she was honest in her identification.

Mr. BALL. We came up to the time you got him in jail that is at 12:05.

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Were you through with him at that time?

Mr. FRITZ. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you see him again?

Mr. FRITZ. I believe we had another arraignment, did we not?

Mr. BALL. You had an arraignment charging him with the assassination of President Kennedy, murder of President Kennedy.

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I went to that arraignment.

Mr. BALL. That was at what time? I believe you showed it at 1:35 a.m. in your records.

Mr. FRITZ. That would be about right.

Mr. BALL. 1:35?

Mr. FRITZ. I will tell you in a minute to be sure. I show 1:35.

Mr. BALL. That was where?

Mr. FRITZ. In the identification bureau.

Mr. BALL. Who was present?

Mr. FRITZ. That is just outside the jail.

Mr. BALL. Who was present at that time?

Mr. FRITZ. Well, I show Bill Alexander of the district attorney's office, Henry Wade. That was before Judge Johnston also, and I was there, and I am sure of three or four other people that I can't name.

I think Chief Curry might have gone to this, I can't answer for him, but I believe he might have.

Mr. BALL. That is one, 1:35 a.m., shortly after midnight was the arraignment.

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, your records show that he was checked in the jail at 1:10 a.m. and it doesn't show a checkout when he was taken to the arraignment.

Mr. FRITZ. To the arraignment. It probably wouldn't show that. Sometimes those cards, I don't usually make cards if the man is still in the custody of the jailers, and sometimes, of course, they might miss a card anyway because we use a lot of civilian employees up there.

Mr. BALL. And the jailer was there with him, wasn't he?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir. He brought him out.

Mr. BALL. Another thing, that day, at sometime during the 22d when you questioned Oswald, didn't you ask him about this card he had in his pocket with the name Alek Hidell?

Mr. FRITZ. I did; yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What did you ask him about that?

Mr. FRITZ. I believe he had three of those cards if I remember correctly, and he told me that was the name that he picked up in New Orleans that he had used sometimes. One of the cards looked like it might have been altered a little bit and one of them I believe was the Fair Play for Cuba and one looked like a social security card or something.

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mr. FRITZ. We have pictures of those cards here. You no doubt have them.

Mr. BALL. Yes. We have them. Did he say that he had used that as a name?

Mr. FRITZ. He told me that is a name he picked up in New Orleans.

Mr. BALL. Did he say----

Mr. FRITZ. I presumed by that he had used it by saying he had picked it up in New Orleans.

Mr. BALL. To one officer he said he didn't want to talk about that or he wouldn't talk about that?

Mr. FRITZ. That is right. Very often he would do that. He would tell him some things and tell me some things.

Mr. BALL. I am talking about this card, A. Hidell. Do you recall whether he told you he had picked it up in New Orleans and--or did he tell you he didn't want to talk about it? He wouldn't talk about it?

Mr. FRITZ. He didn't tell me he wouldn't want to talk about it. He told me he had picked it up down there and when I questioned further then he told me he didn't want to talk about it.

Mr. BALL. Now, the next morning or the next day you questioned him again, didn't you?

Mr. FRITZ. Let's see, that would be on the 23d.

Mr. BALL. You had another showup on the 23d in the afternoon, but apparently that morning before the showup you talked to him in your office?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What do your records show as to the first time you talked to him on November 23?

Mr. FRITZ. Let's see.

Mr. BALL. I believe if you will look on page 6 of 137B of your formal report that will refresh your memory.

Mr. FRITZ. Which part of this do you want now?

Mr. BALL. I want to know what time you started to question him on November 23.

Mr. FRITZ. I think I can get that time out of the little book.

Mr. BALL. If you look at the top of page 6 there.

Mr. FRITZ. I don't have it.

Mr. BALL. Do you have 137B?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes; I have it. I show 10:25 a.m.

Mr. BALL. 10:35?

Mr. FRITZ. 10:25.

Mr. BALL. 10:25 a.m.?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Who was present at this time? Still--look at your notes there.

Mr. FRITZ. I show here Jim Bookhout, Forrest Sorrels, special agent in charge of Secret Service. Robert Nash, who is U.S. marshal there in Dallas, and an officer besides myself.

Mr. BALL. What officer beside yourself?

Mr. FRITZ. I have that in here.

Mr. BALL. Tell me what you talked about this morning on the 23d? You called him down there for a certain purpose, didn't you?

Mr. FRITZ. Let's see if this is the morning of the 24th, is it--is this the 23d or 24th?

Mr. BALL. This is Saturday morning, the 23d.

Mr. FRITZ. Saturday morning.

Mr. BALL. You learned certain things from your investigation of the day before, hadn't you?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. One of them was you found he had a transfer, didn't you, in his pocket when he was arrested?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I sure talked to him about the transfers.

Mr. BALL. All right. What did he say?

Mr. FRITZ. He admitted the transfer.

Mr. BALL. I don't want you to say he admitted the transfer. I want you to tell me what he said about the transfer.

Mr. FRITZ. He told me that was the transfer the busdriver had given him when he caught the bus to go home. But he had told me if you will remember in our previous conversation that he rode the bus or on North Beckley and had walked home but in the meantime, sometime had told me about him riding a cab.

So, when I asked him about a cab ride if he had ridden in a cab he said yes, he had, he told me wrong about the bus, he had rode a cab. He said the reason he changed, that he rode the bus for a short distance, and the crowd was so heavy and traffic was so bad that he got out and caught a cab, and I asked him some other questions about the cab and I asked him what happened there when he caught the cab and he said there was a lady trying to catch a cab and he told the busdriver, the busdriver told him to tell the lady to catch the cab behind him and he said he rode that cab over near his home, he rode home in a cab.

I asked him how much the cabfare was, he said 85 cents.

Mr. BALL. Did you ask him if he went directly to his home?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; he said he went straight home.

Mr. BALL. Didn't you learn from the cabdriver that he hadn't taken him to 1026 North Beckley?

Mr. FRITZ. I knew he had taken him near there but I am telling you what he told me, he told me he had taken him home.

Mr. BALL. Did you ask him whether he had gone directly home?

Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; I don't think so.

Mr. BALL. Then you found out the day before about the Wesley Frazier package, hadn't you?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I found out about the package from Irving.

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And also that he usually went home on Friday night and this time he went home on Thursday night.

Mr. FRITZ. I asked him why he had changed nights.

Mr. BALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. FRITZ. And let me see what he told me about why he had changed. The man I talked to told me he usually went out on weekends, on Friday, so I believe he told me, I am not positive why he told me why he went home on this different night but I think he told me because someone else was going to be over there on weekends or something to that effect.

I can look right here and see what he told me.

Mr. BALL. All right, look and see. You also asked him that day about the curtain rods, didn't you?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Had you asked him about that the night before, do you know or was this the first time you talked to him about it?

Mr. FRITZ. I don't think I asked him the night before, I am sure I did not. I am sure I did not ask him the night before. I remember I was pretty hesitant about asking him about them at all because I told you I didn't want to tell him--I didn't want him to tell me about curtain rods until I found out a little more about them.

Mr. BALL. But you asked him about them this morning?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. He had told Frazier that he had curtain rods in the package?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; he denied having curtain rods or any package other than his lunch.

Mr. BALL. Didn't you also ask him what he had done when he went home, what, when he went to 1026 North Beckley?

Mr. FRITZ. When he went to Beckley?

Mr. BALL. What he did.

Mr. FRITZ. What he did when he went on North Beckley?

Mr. BALL. After the cab ride, what he had done.

Mr. FRITZ. This time he told me a different story about changing the clothing. He told me this time that he had changed his trousers and shirt and I asked him what he did with his dirty clothes and he said, I believe he said, he put them, the dirty clothes, I believe he said he put a shirt in a drawer.

Mr. BALL. And you asked him again, didn't you, what he was doing at the time the President was shot?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What did he say?

Mr. FRITZ. Well, he told me about the same story about this lunch.

Mr. BALL. He mentioned who he was having lunch with, did he not?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; he told me he was having lunch when the President was shot.

Mr. BALL. With whom?

Mr. FRITZ. With someone called Junior, someone he worked with down there, but he didn't remember the other boy's name.

Mr. BALL. Did he tell you what he was eating?

Mr. FRITZ. He told me, I believe, that he had, I am doing this from memory, a cheese sandwich, and he also mentioned he had some fruit, I had forgotten about the fruit until I looked at this report.

Mr. BALL. Did he say that was in the package he had brought from home?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; there was one reason I asked him about what was in the package, we had had a story that had been circulated around the meantime about some chicken bones. I am sure you heard of that, and I wanted to find for sure what he did have in his lunch and he told me about having--he told me they did not have any chicken out there and I also talked with the Paines and they told me they didn't have any chicken in the icebox, they did have some cheese.

Mr. BALL. But he said he had had lunch with Junior?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; and with someone else.

Mr. BALL. Did you find out that there was an employee named Junior, a man that was nicknamed Junior at the Texas School Book Depository?

Mr. FRITZ. Probably we have it here, some of the officers probably did, we had all these people checked out. I didn't do it myself probably.

Mr. BALL. That same morning, you asked him also about his affiliations, didn't you ask him if he belonged to the Communist Party?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I asked him if he belonged to the Communist Party.

Mr. BALL. What did he say?

Mr. FRITZ. He said he did not. He said he never had a card. He told me again that he did belong to the Fair Play for Cuba organization, that he was in favor of the Castro revolution and I don't remember what else he might have told me.

Mr. BALL. What about the pistol that he had on him when he was arrested, did you question him about that this morning?

Mr. FRITZ. That morning?

Mr. BALL. Your notes show that you did.

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I talked to him about the pistol and asked him where he got it.

Mr. BALL. What did he say?