Part 33

I asked him why he didn't stay out there. He said he didn't want to stay out there all the time, Mrs. Paine and her husband didn't get along too well. They were separated a good part of the time and I asked him if he had a car and he said he didn't have a car, he said the Paines had two cars but he didn't use their cars.

Mr. BALL. Did you ask him anything about his address or did he volunteer the address?

Mr. FRITZ. He volunteered the address at Beckley?

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mr. FRITZ. Well, I will tell you, whether we asked him or told him one, he never did deny it, he never did deny the Beckley Street address at all. The only thing was he didn't know whether it was north or south.

Mr. BALL. Did you ask him whether it was north or south?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, but he didn't know. But from the description of surroundings we could tell it was North Beckley.

Mr. BALL. Up to that time you hadn't sent any men out to North Beckley, had you?

Mr. FRITZ. Well, I sent them out there real soon and Officer Potts called me back from out there and talked to me on the telephone and gave me a report from out there on the telephone, and I am sure that that is the time that he told me about the way he was registered, and I asked Oswald about why he was registered under this other name.

Mr. BALL. What other name?

Mr. FRITZ. Of O. L. Lee.

Mr. BALL. O. H. Lee?

Mr. FRITZ. O. H. Lee. He said, well, the lady didn't understand him, she put it down there and he just left it that way.

Mr. BALL. Did you ask him whether he had signed his name O. H. Lee?

Mr. FRITZ. No, I hadn't asked him.

Mr. BALL. Did you know that he had personally registered?

Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. BALL. He said the lady didn't understand him?

Mr. FRITZ. He said the lady didn't understand him and he just left it that way.

Mr. BALL. How long did this first questioning take?

Mr. FRITZ. Of course, I talked to him several times during that afternoon. I would have to go out and talk to every officer and give them different assignments and talk to them about these witnesses, and help some in getting the witnesses over there.

I also asked Lieutenant Day to bring the rifle down after I sent after Mrs. Oswald, and had her to look at the rifle. She couldn't identify it positively but she said it looked like the rifle that he had, but she couldn't say for sure. She said she thought he brought it from New Orleans.

Mr. BALL. How long a time did you sit with Oswald and question him this first time?

Mr. FRITZ. The first time, not but a few minutes.

Mr. BALL. That was the time Hosty and Bookhout were there?

Mr. FRITZ. That is right. But sometimes when I would leave the office to do something else, it is hard to imagine how many things we had happening at the one time or how many different officers we had doing different things without seeing it but we were terribly busy.

I had called all my officers back on duty and had every one of them assigned to something, so going back and forth kept me pretty busy running back and forth at the time of questioning.

I don't know when I would leave, I suppose Mr. Bookhout and Mr. Hosty asked him a few questions, but I don't believe they questioned him a great deal while I was gone.

Mr. BALL. You said just a few minutes, what did you mean by that, 15, 20, 25?

Mr. FRITZ. It would be pretty hard to guess at a time like that because we weren't even quitting for lunch so I don't even know, time didn't mean much right at that time. For a few minutes, you would think 30 or 40 minutes the first time.

Mr. BALL. Thirty or forty minutes?

Mr. FRITZ. I am guessing at that time.

Mr. BALL. He hadn't been searched up to that time, had he?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; he had been searched.

Mr. BALL. Wasn't he searched later in the jail office?

Mr. FRITZ. He was searched, the officers who arrested him made the first search, I am sure. He had another search at the building and I believe that one of my officers, Mr. Boyd, found some cartridges in his pocket in the room after he came to the city hall. I can't tell you the exact time when he searched him.

Mr. BAIL. You don't have the record of the time when he was searched?

Mr. FRITZ. No.

Mr. BALL. You remember they found a transfer of Dallas Transit Company?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; found a transfer.

Mr. BALL. And some bullets?

Mr. FRITZ. Bullets; yes, sir. Cartridges.

Mr. BALL. He had an identification bracelet, too, didn't he?

Mr. FRITZ. I am not sure about that.

Mr. BALL. You don't remember?

Mr. FRITZ. No.

Mr. BALL. You had a showup that afternoon?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. May I ask what kind of bullets these were?

Mr. FRITZ. .38, cartridges for a .38 pistol.

Mr. McCLOY. Pistol?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, pistol cartridges.

Mr. BALL. You had a showup that afternoon?

Mr. FRITZ. That first showup was for a lady who was an eye witness and we were trying to get that showup as soon as we could because she was beginning to faint and getting sick.

In fact, I had to leave the office and carry some ammonia across the hall, they were about to send her to the hospital or something and we needed that identification real quickly, and she got to feeling all right after using this ammonia.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember her name?

Mr. FRITZ. I have her name here.

Mr. BALL. Was that Mrs. Markham?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, Helen Markham.

Mr. BALL. That was the first showup, was it?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Were you there?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. With her?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Will you tell me what happened there?

Mr. FRITZ. She looked at these people very carefully, and she picked him out and made the positive identification.

Mr. BALL. What did she say?

Mr. FRITZ. She said that is the man that I saw shoot the officer.

Mr. BALL. Who did she point out?

Mr. FRITZ. She pointed out Oswald; yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. In your showup room you have the prisoners separated from the visitors?

Mr. FRITZ. There is a screen. They are on a stage with numbers over their heads for identification, and measurements to show their height, and this is lighted back there so the people can see them plainly, and the people who are looking at them usually sit at desks out some distance, probably as far as here from that window from the showup screen.

Mr. BALL. Near the window, you mean about 15, 20 feet.

Mr. FRITZ. Yes; about that far.

Mr. BALL. And then, now in this showup there were two officers of the vice squad and an officer and a clerk from the jail that were in the showup with Oswald?

Mr. FRITZ. That is true. I borrowed those officers, I was a little bit afraid some prisoner might hurt him, there was a lot of excitement and a lot of feeling right about that time so we didn't have an officer in my office the right size to show with him so I asked two of the special service officers if they would help me and they said they would be glad to, so they took off their coats and neckties and fixed themselves where they would look like prisoners and they were good enough to stand on each side of him in the showup and we used a man who works in the jail office, a civilian employee as a third man.

Mr. BALL. Now, were they dressed a little better than Oswald, do you think, these three people?

Mr. FRITZ. Well, I don't think there was a great deal of difference. They had on their regular working clothes and after they opened their shirts and took off their ties, why they looked very much like anyone else.

Mr. BALL. They were all handcuffed together, were they?

Mr. FRITZ. I am not sure, I don't remember for sure if they were all handcuffed together or not. They probably did. I couldn't be positive about that.

Mr. BALL. Now, after you had had the showup with Helen Markham, did you question Oswald again?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. In your office?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Go directly from the showup room up there?

Mr. FRITZ. Well, I am not sure whether directly, but shortly, there wouldn't be too much time when we talk to him after that.

Mr. BALL. Your records show the showup for Helen Markham was 4:45.

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Do you think that is about right?

Mr. FRITZ. I think that is about right.

Mr. BALL. All right, now how long after that would you say you went back to your office and talked to him again?

Mr. FRITZ. I would say within, it would take us a few minutes, you know, to get him back from the showup, probably 15 minutes, something like that.

Mr. BALL. Who was present?

Mr. FRITZ. Twenty minutes.

Mr. BALL. Who was present at this questioning?

Mr. FRITZ. This particular questioning?

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mr. FRITZ. I believe--I don't want to be sure about whether Mr. Hosty stayed at this next time or not because he left at some time. Mr. Bookhout stayed and my officers were there.

Mr. BALL. Now, there was a time when you asked him where he worked and what he did?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And was that the first----

Mr. FRITZ. That was the first time.

Mr. BALL. The first question--what did he tell you about that?

Mr. FRITZ. He told me he worked at the Texas School Book Depository.

Mr. BALL. Did he tell you----

Mr. FRITZ. I asked him how he got his job down there, too.

Mr. BALL. What did he say?

Mr. FRITZ. He told me that someone that he knew, a lady that he knew recommended him for that job and he got that job through her. I believe the records show something else but that is what he told me.

Mr. BALL. Did you ask him what happened that day; where he had been?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What did he say?

Mr. FRITZ. Well he told me that he was eating lunch with some of the employees when this happened, and that he saw all the excitement and he didn't think--I also asked him why he left the building. He said there was so much excitement there then that "I didn't think there would be any work done that afternoon and we don't punch a clock and they don't keep very close time on our work and I just left."

Mr. BALL. At that time didn't you know that one of your officers, Baker, had seen Oswald on the second floor?

Mr. FRITZ. They told me about that down at the bookstore; I believe Mr. Truly or someone told me about it, told me they had met him--I think he told me, person who told me about, I believe told me that they met him on the stairway, but our investigation shows that he actually saw him in a lunchroom, a little lunchroom where they were eating, and he held his gun on this man and Mr. Truly told him that he worked there, and the officer let him go.

Mr. BALL. Did you question Oswald about that?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I asked him about that and he knew that the officer stopped him all right.

Mr. BALL. Did you ask him what he was doing in the lunchroom?

Mr. FRITZ. He said he was having his lunch. He had a cheese sandwich and a Coca-Cola.

Mr. BALL. Did he tell you he was up there to get a Coca-Cola?

Mr. FRITZ. He said he had a Coca-Cola.

Mr. BALL. That same time you also asked him about the rifle.

Mr. FRITZ. I am not sure that is the time I asked him about the rifle. I did ask him about the rifle sometime soon after that occurred, and after the showup; I am not sure which time I asked him about the rifle.

Mr. BALL. Did you bring the rifle down to your office?

Mr. FRITZ. Not to him; not for him to see.

Mr. BALL. You never showed it to him?

Mr. FRITZ. No, sir. I asked him if he owned a rifle and he said he did not. I asked him if he had ever owned a rifle. He said a good many years ago he owned a small rifle but he hadn't owned one for a long time. I asked him if he owned a rifle in Russia and he said, "You know you can't own a rifle in Russia." He said, "I had a shotgun over there. You can't own a rifle in Russia." And he denied owning a rifle of any kind.

Mr. BALL. Didn't he say that he had seen a rifle at the building?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; he told me he had seen a rifle at the building 2 or 3 days before that Mr. Truly and some men were looking at.

Mr. BALL. You asked him why he left the building, didn't you?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. He told you because he didn't think there would be any work?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you ask him what he did after he left the building?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What did he say?

Mr. FRITZ. He told me he went over and caught a bus and rode the bus to North Beckley near where he lived and went by home and changed clothes and got his pistol and went to the show. I asked him why he took his pistol and he said, "Well, you know about a pistol; I just carried it." Let's see if I asked him anything else right that minute. That is just about it.

Mr. BALL. Did you ask him if he killed Tippit?

Mr. FRITZ. Sir?

Mr. BALL. Did you ask him if he shot Tippit?

Mr. FRITZ. Oh, yes.

Mr. BALL. What did he say.

Mr. FRITZ. He denied it--that he did not. The only thing he said he had done wrong, "The only law I violated was in the show; I hit the officer in the show; he hit me in the eye and I guess I deserved it." He said, "That is the only law I violated." He said, "That is the only thing I have done wrong."

Mr. BALL. Now, in this first conversation he told you that he had lived at 1026 Beckley, didn't he?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir. He didn't know whether it was north or south.

Mr. BALL. And you sent a group of officers out there to search that address?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; that is right.

Mr. BALL. Before you talked to him the second time you had talked to Potts on the telephone, had you not?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I had.

Mr. BALL. He told you what he had done?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir. I should have remembered that when I talked to you this morning.

Mr. BALL. Wasn't there some conversation also about what his political beliefs were?

Mr. FRITZ. I believe that is later. I asked him about his political beliefs and he said that he believed in fair play for Cuba. He said he was a member of the Fair Play for Cuba organization. They had headquarters in New York, had an office in New Orleans.

At one time he had been secretary for this organization down there. I asked him if he belonged to any other organizations of any kind, and he said he belonged to the American Civil Liberties Union, and I asked him what dues he paid. He said, "$5 per month." I believe he said, or for a year. I am not positive about that. I would have to look at my notes.

Mr. BALL. Was that at the first or second questioning?

Mr. FRITZ. I think it was the second or third; that was later.

Mr. BALL. Later on?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir. I don't think I talked to him about his political beliefs until later.

Mr. BALL. Did you say anything to him about an attorney the first time you talked to him?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; the first time. He asked about an attorney, and I told him he certainly could have an attorney any time he wanted it. I told him he could have an attorney any time he liked, any attorney he wanted. I told him, I said, we will do it. He said he wanted an attorney in New York. And he gave me his name, Mr. Abt, and he said that is who he wanted, and I told him he could have anyone he liked. He said, well, he knew about a case that he had handled some years ago, where he represented the people who had violated the Smith Act, and he said, "I don't know him personally, but that is the attorney I want."

He said, "If I can't get him then I may get the American Civil Liberties Union to get me an attorney."

Mr. BALL. Was there anything said about calling him on the telephone?

Mr. FRITZ. A little bit later.

Mr. BALL. Not that time?

Mr. FRITZ. Not that minute. A little bit later, he asked something else about an attorney and I said, "Did you call an attorney?" And he said, "You know I can't use the telephone." And I said, "Yes, you can; anybody can use a telephone." So, I told them to be sure to let him use a telephone and the next time I talked to him he thanked me for that, so I presume he called.

Mr. BALL. You don't know whether he called?

Mr. FRITZ. I don't know whether he did or not.

Mr. BALL. When you say a little bit later, you mean another period of questioning?

Mr. FRITZ. Sometime during that talk.

Mr. BALL. You haven't identified these periods of questioning by time.

Mr. FRITZ. I can't identify them positively. I can do the best I can by memory, but I wouldn't want to try to answer any of these questions by time because I might get them in the wrong question and in the wrong--time span.

Mr. BALL. At 6:30 you had another showup, at which time McWatters, Guinyard, and Callaway--do you remember those witnesses? Callaway is the car salesman, and Sam Guinyard is the porter at the used-car lot at the corner of Patton and Jefferson, and McWatters is a cabdriver--no; is a busdriver.

Mr. FRITZ. We have the names; if those names are right, that is true. At that time on this showup we put some officers up on the stage with him; officers stayed on the stage with him during the showup.

Mr. BALL. I point that time out as 6:30 because it appears that you started to question Oswald after you had the Markham showup sometime after 4:35, 4:40, 4:45. Did you question him steadily from then until 6:30, the time of the second showup?

Mr. FRITZ. I don't--I don't believe there was any time when I went through a very long period without having to step to the door, or step outside, to get a report from some pair of officers, or to give them additional assignments.

Mr. BALL. Where did you keep him; in what room?

Mr. FRITZ. In my office there.

Mr. BALL. He was in your office all the time?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; within there.

Mr. BALL. Between the two showups at 4:35 and 6:30, he was in your office all the time?

Mr. FRITZ. Well, I believe he was there all that time; let's see, 4:30 to 6:30; I don't remember him being carried out there any time.

Mr. BALL. Was he being questioned by somebody all the time, whether you or somebody else?

Mr. FRITZ. I doubt it, because I don't think those officers talked to him very much while I was out of the office, I think they might have asked him a few questions, but didn't ask him much.

Mr. BALL. Were you present at the showup when Callaway and Guinyard and the busdriver were there?

Mr. FRITZ. I don't believe so.

Mr. BALL. Now, your records show that in your office at 6:37 there was an arraignment; do you remember that?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I remember that arraignment.

Mr. BALL. Will you tell us what happened then? It doesn't show arraignments.

Mr. FRITZ. Do you show arraignment for 7:30?

Mr. BALL. No; 6:30. 7, you discussed, you met with Alexander, the district attorney's office, didn't you?

Mr. FRITZ. I probably did. I probably talked to him about the evidence.

Mr. BALL. He was arraigned at 7:10.

Mr. FRITZ. He was in our outer office most all the time and I talked to him two, three different times.

Mr. BALL. Did he ever take part in the questioning of Oswald?

Mr. FRITZ. I don't believe so; no, sir.

Mr. BALL. What happened at 7:10?

Mr. FRITZ. 7:10 we had this arraignment with Judge David Johnston, and present. I was present, and Officers Sims, Boyd, Hall, and Mr. Alexander from the district attorney's office, and that was in my office.

Mr. BALL. How was the arraignment conducted?

Mr. FRITZ. Well, the judge gave him a warning, talked to him for a little bit.

Mr. BALL. What warning did he give him?

Mr. FRITZ. He advised him of his rights. I believe he had a form; I couldn't repeat it, of course, but I believe he had some forms that he went over with him.

Mr. BALL. What rights did he advise him of; do you know?

Mr. FRITZ. Of his rights for an attorney, and everything that he told was supposed to be voluntary and things of that kind.

Mr. BALL. He was advised that he had a right to an attorney, was he?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I am sure he was; I advised him on that on two or three different occasions.

Mr. BALL. Did--you have a rule in Texas, do you, that whatever a witness, a person in custody, says cannot be used against him unless he is warned?

Mr. FRITZ. We do have; yes, sir. We have to warn them before we can use the testimony. We have to warn them in the beginning before he is questioned.

Mr. BALL. Before he is questioned you must warn him?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Before you questioned Oswald the first time, did you warn him?

Mr FRITZ. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What did you tell him? What were the words you used?

Mr. FRITZ. I told him that any evidence that he gave me would be used against him, and the offense for which the statement was made, that it would have to be voluntary, made of his own accord.

Mr. BILL. Did he reply to that?

Mr. FRITZ. He told me that he didn't want a lawyer and he told me once or twice that he didn't want to answer any questions at all. And once or twice he did quit answering any questions and he told me he did want to talk to his attorney, and I told him each time he didn't have to if he didn't want to. So, later he sometimes would start talking to me again.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember when you warned him again?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I warned him two or three different times; yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember when those times were?

Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; but during the afternoon.

Mr. BALL. They were--you were more or less continuously questioning through the afternoon, were you?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, at 7:10, he was arraigned in your office?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. By arraign you mean he was informed of the charge against him?

Mr. FRITZ. That is right.

Mr. BALL. He wasn't asked to plea.

Mr. FRITZ. Before a judge, before a justice of the peace, a magistrate.

Mr. BALL. It is not your practice to ask for a plea at that stage, is it?

Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; we don't.

Mr. BALL. All you do is advise him of his rights and the charge against him?

Mr. FRITZ. That is right, I am not a lawyer, you might feel--I don't want to leave a bad impression, I am just telling you what we do.

Mr. BALL. What the practice is in Texas.

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did Oswald make any reply to Judge Johnston?

Mr. FRITZ. He said a lot of sarcastic things to him.

Mr. BALL. What did he say?

Mr. FRITZ. Irritable. I can't remember all the things that he said. He was that way at each arraignment. He said little sarcastic things, some of the things were a little impudent things.

Mr. BALL. After the arraignment, your records show that there was--he talked to an agent named Clements, do you remember that?

Mr. FRITZ. I believe that during one of the times when I was out, had to leave the office for a minute to attend to something, Mr. Clements asked me if it would be all right for him to take a little personal history.

Mr. BALL. Were you present at that time?

Mr. FRITZ. No.

Mr. BALL. That was in your office?

Mr. FRITZ. In the office.

Mr. BALL. Who was there at the time?

Mr. FRITZ. I don't know. He was there, I know some of my officers were there, they had to watch him all the time.

Mr. BALL. Sims and Boyd?

Mr. FRITZ. If they weren't there, some homicide officers were.

Mr. BALL. You had two officers with him all times?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; sometimes three.

Mr. BALL. Always with him in the room?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; all the time. They never questioned him but they stayed in the room.

Mr. BALL. Then your records show another showup at 7:50?

Mr. FRITZ. At what time?

Mr. BALL. 7:50, that is the third showup. Mrs. Davis----

Mr. FRITZ. That would be showup No. 3.

Mr. BALL. That is showup No. 3.

Mr. FRITZ. Showup No. 3 was held for Barbara Jean Davis.

Mr. BALL. And Virginia Davis.

Mr. FRITZ. Virginia Davis.

Mr. BALL. Were you there at the time of the showup?

Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; I don't believe I was there, Mr. Hall, Mr. Sims, Mr. Boyd, and Mr. Moore.

Mr. BALL. Do you know who chose the people for the showup there?

Mr. FRITZ. Who showed the people; yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Who chose the people. There is a Walter, Richard Walter Borchgardt.

Mr. FRITZ. Are those the people you mean for the showup?

Mr. BALL. Yes.