Part 32

Mr. FRITZ. We, we didn't make it for the attorney general of Texas. At the time we made this we were just making, we were told that we would probably need a report for this investigation, and we started immediately to making this. We didn't know at that time the attorney general would need one of these but when we were told he would need one we, of course, sent him one, too.

Mr. BALL. What I want to do is distinguish between the books you are looking at for this record.

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You have a book that is of some size there?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And you call that what?

Mr. FRITZ. Well, "Investigation of the Assassination of President Kennedy."

Mr. BALL. That is the same as Commission's Document No. 81B. So, then, you have a smaller book before you, haven't you?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes; a little index book.

Mr. BALL. An index.

Mr. FRITZ. It really is an index book for this larger file but it is kind of a quick reference book.

Mr. BALL. I see. Now, what time did you, what time was it that you heard the President had been shot?

Mr. FRITZ. I show that he was shot at 12:35, and one of the Secret Service men who was assigned the same location where we were assigned, got a little call on his, evidently got a call on his little transistor radio and Chief Stevenson, who was also assigned to some part of the building there, came to me and told me that the President had been hit at the underpass, and asked me to go to the hospital and see what I could do.

Mr. BALL. You say you know he was shot at 12:35?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You mean that is the time you heard about it?

Mr. FRITZ. Well, we heard about it immediately after that, and we arrived and we checked----

Mr. BALL. What time did you hear about it?

Mr. FRITZ. Just when Chief Stevenson came to me and told me.

Mr. BALL. Did you make a note of it at the time?

Mr. FRITZ. No sir; I didn't make a note of it at the time.

Mr. BALL. When you heard of this what did you do?

Mr. FRITZ. Immediately left, and I told the two officers with me, Mr. Sims and Boyd that we would run to our police car that was parked nearby, listened to radio call to see whether it was a hoax or whether it was the truth. It was only 10 minutes' time for the President's arrival, we didn't want to leave unless this was a genuine call, and a true call.

When we got to the radio, of course, we began to get other news. We went to Parkland Hospital as we had been instructed, and as we drove up in front of the hospital, we I suppose intercepted the chief, Chief Curry, between the curb and the hospital, and I told him we had had a call to the hospital but I felt we were going to the wrong place, we should go to the scene of the crime and he said, "Well, go ahead," so I don't think our car ever quit rolling but we went right to the scene of the crime.

Mr. BALL. Did you go directly to a building?

Mr. FRITZ. Directly to the Texas School Book Depository Building.

Mr. BALL. What time did you arrive there?

Mr. FRITZ. Well, sir; we arrived there--we arrived at the hospital at 12:45, if you want that time, and at the scene of the offense at 12:58.

Mr. BALL. 12:58; the Texas School Book Depository Building.

Mr. FRITZ. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Were there any officers there at the time?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. In the front?

Mr. FRITZ. Several officers; yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Do you know who they were?

Mr. FRITZ. I couldn't give you the name of all of them.

Mr. BALL. What did you do when you got to this building?

Mr. FRITZ. Some officer told us they thought he was in that building, so we had our guns----

Mr. McCLOY. Thought who was in the building?

Mr. FRITZ. The man who did the shooting was in the building. So, we, of course, took our shotguns and immediately entered the building and searched the building to see if we could find him.

Mr. BALL. Were there guards on the doors of the building at that time?

Mr. FRITZ. I am not sure, but I don't--there has been some question about that, but the reason I don't think that--this may differ with someone else, but I am going to tell you what I know.

Mr. BALL. All right.

Mr. McCLOY. By all means.

Mr. FRITZ. After I arrived one of the officers asked me if I would like to have the building sealed and I told him I would.

Mr. BALL. What officer was that?

Mr. FRITZ. That is a uniformed officer, but I don't know what his name was, he was outside, of course, I went upstairs and I don't know whether he did because I couldn't watch him.

Mr. BALL. Then what did you do?

Mr. FRITZ. We began searching the floors, looking for anyone with a gun or looked suspicious, and we searched through hurriedly through most all the floors.

Mr. McCLOY. Which floor did you start with?

Mr. FRITZ. We started at the bottom; yes, sir. And, of course, and I think we went up probably to the top.

Different people would call me when they would find something that looked like something I should know about and I ran back and forth from floor to floor as we were searching, and it wasn't very long until someone called me and told me they wanted me to come to the front window, the corner window, they had found some empty cartridges.

Mr. BALL. That was on the sixth floor?

Mr. FRITZ. That is right; the sixth floor, corner window.

Mr. BALL. What did you do?

Mr. FRITZ. I told them not to move the cartridges, not to touch anything until we could get the crime lab to take pictures of them just as they were lying there and I left an officer assigned there to see that that was done, and the crime lab came almost immediately, and took pictures, and dusted the shelfs for prints.

Mr. BALL. Which officers, which officer did you leave there?

Mr. FRITZ. Carl Day was the man I talked to about taking pictures.

Mr. BALL. Day?

Mr. FRITZ. Lieutenant Day; yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Do you know whether he took the pictures or not?

Mr. FRITZ. I feel like he did but I don't know because I didn't stay to see whether he could.

Mr. BALL. You didn't know whether he took the pictures?

Mr. FRITZ. I went on searching the building. I just told them to preserve that evidence and I went right ahead.

Mr. BALL. What happened after that?

Mr. FRITZ. A few minutes later some officer called me and said they had found the rifle over near the back stairway and I told them same thing, not to move it, not to touch it, not to move any of the boxes until we could get pictures, and as soon as Lieutenant Day could get over there he made pictures of that.

Mr. BALL. After the pictures had been taken of the rifle what happened then?

Mr. FRITZ. After the pictures had been made then I ejected a live shell, a live cartridge from the rifle.

Mr. BALL. And who did you give that to?

Mr. FRITZ. I believe that I kept that at that time myself. Later I gave it to the crime lab who, in turn, turned it over to the FBI.

Mr. BALL. Did you put any marking of yours on the empty cartridge?

Mr. FRITZ. On that loaded cartridge?

Mr. BALL. On that loaded cartridge.

Mr. FRITZ. I don't know, I am not sure, I don't think so.

Mr. BALL. Was there any conversation you heard that this rifle was a Mauser?

Mr. FRITZ. I heard all kinds of reports about that rifle. They called it most everything.

Mr. BALL. Did you hear any conversation right there that day?

Mr. FRITZ. Right at that time?

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mr. FRITZ. I just wouldn't be sure because there were so many people talking at the same time, I might have; I am not sure whether I did or not.

Mr. BALL. Did you think it was a Mauser?

Mr. FRITZ. No sir; I knew--you can read on the rifle what it was and you could also see on the cartridge what caliber it was.

Mr. BALL. Well, did you ever make any--did you ever say that it was a 7.65 Mauser?

Mr. FRITZ. No sir; I am sure I did not.

Mr. BALL. Or did you think it was such a thing?

Mr. FRITZ. No sir; I did not. If I did, the Mauser part, I won't be too positive about Mauser because I am not too sure about Mauser rifles myself. But I am certainly sure that I never did give anyone any different caliber than the one that shows on the cartridges.

Mr. BALL. Did you initial the rifle?

Mr. FRITZ. The rifle; no, sir.

Mr. BALL. You didn't. Who did you give the rifle to after you ejected this live cartridge?

Mr. FRITZ. I believe that that rifle, I didn't take the rifle with me, Lieutenant Day took that rifle, I believe, to the city hall, and later I asked him to bring it down--I don't believe I ever carried that rifle to city hall. I believe Lieutenant Day carried it to city hall, anyway if you will ask him he can be more positive than I.

Mr. BALL. While you were there Mr. Truly came up to you?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; where the rifle was found. That was about the time we finished Mr. Truly came and told me that one of his employees had left the building, and I asked his name and he gave me his name, Lee Harvey Oswald, and I asked his address and he gave me the Irving address.

Mr. BALL. This was after the rifle was found?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; after the rifle was found.

Mr. BALL. Another witness has testified that the rifle was found at 1:22 p.m., does that about accord with your figures or your memory?

Mr. FRITZ. Let's see, I might have that here. I don't think I have that time.

Mr. BALL. Do you have the time at which the shells were found?

Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; I don't have that time.

Mr. BALL. How long did you stay there at the Texas School Book Depository?

Mr. McCLOY. Can I ask one question there, did you take any precautions as to fingerprints before you ejected this?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. So in your opinion your fingerprints wouldn't show?

Mr. FRITZ. He could have taken mine but I let him dust first before I ejected a shell.

Mr. BALL. How long did you stay at the Texas School Book Depository after you found the rifle?

Mr. FRITZ. After he told me about this man almost, I left immediately after he told me that.

Mr. BALL. You left almost immediately after he told you that?

Mr. FRITZ. Almost after he told me that man, I felt it important to hold that man.

Mr. BALL. Did you give descriptions to Sims and Boyd?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I told them to drive me to city hall and see if the man had a criminal record and we picked up two other officers and my intentions were to go to the house at Irving. When I got to the city hall, I asked, because, I will tell you why I asked because while we were in the building we heard that our officer had been killed, someone came in and told me, I asked when I got to my office who shot the officer, and they told me his name was Oswald, and I said, "His full name?" And they told me and I said, "That is the suspect we are looking for in the President's killing."

So, I then called some of my officers to go right quickly, and asked them about how much evidence we had on the officer's killing and they told me they had several eye witnesses, and they had some real good witnesses, and I instructed them to get those witnesses over for identification just as soon as they could, and for us to prepare a real good case on the officer's killing so we would have a case to hold him without bond while we investigated the President's killing where we didn't have so many witnesses.

Mr. BALL. Now, you instructed some other officers to go to Irving, didn't you?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. BALL. And you told Sims and Boyd to stay with you?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I don't believe I sent them to Irving, I have the names of the officers I sent to Irving.

Mr. BALL. Who did you send to Irving?

Mr. FRITZ. To Irving, Officer Stovall, Rose, and Adamcik.

Mr. BALL. After you had done that what did you do?

Mr. FRITZ. I sent some officers--you mean right at that time? I also sent officers over to the Beckley address, you know, as soon as we got there, I don't believe we had the Beckley address at this part of this question.

Mr. BALL. You didn't have it at that time, did you?

Mr. FRITZ. Not right at this time, but as soon as I got to that address.

Mr. BALL. Let's come to that a little later and we find out when you got there.

Mr. FRITZ. When I got there?

Mr. BALL. Yes. What did you do after you had sent the officers to Irving?

Mr. FRITZ. When I started to talk to this prisoner or maybe just before I started to talk to him, some officer told me outside of my office that he had a room on Beckley, I don't know who that officer was, I think we can find out, I have--since I have talked to you this morning I have talked to Lieutenant Baker and he says I know maybe who that officer was, but I am not sure yet.

Mr. BALL. Some officer told you that he thought this man had a room on Beckley?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Had he been brought into the station by that time?

Mr. FRITZ. He was at the station when we got there, you know.

Mr. BALL. He was?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; so then I talked to him and I asked him where his room was on Beckley.

Mr. BALL. Then you started to interrogate Oswald, did you?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And you called him into your room?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Will you describe the interrogation room, what it looks like and where it is located?

Mr. FRITZ. It is on the, room 317, on the third floor of the courts building, and it isn't a large office. I believe it is 9-1/2 feet by 14 feet, I have the exact measurements that I think are correct. Glass all around, and it has a door leading out into a hallway. My secretaries are seated in the front. There is a lieutenant's office and desk across the hall from me. To my right and through the back window out of my office would be the squadroom where the officers write their reports. And at the end of the hall I have an interrogation room and one interrogation in back of the squadroom.

Mr. BALL. Your room opens onto----

Mr. FRITZ. A little hallway.

Mr. BALL. A little hallway?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. That is not the main hall that goes through the third floor, is it?

Mr. FRITZ. Sir? No, no, a little hallway in the office.

Mr. BALL. The main corridor on the third floor--your office does not open onto the main corridor of the third floor, does it?

Mr. FRITZ. My own office?

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; when I say my office, the homicide and robbery office, my office opens onto the main hallway.

But my little office, a private office opens into a smaller hallway.

Mr. BALL. Where was Oswald being kept before you got there, what room was Oswald in?

Mr. FRITZ. When I got there he was in the front interrogation room at the end of the little hall.

Mr. BALL. Here is a map or a diagram drawn by Chief Curry. It is Commission Exhibit 701. Take a look at this, is that a diagram of the floor?

Mr. FRITZ. This would be my office right here.

Mr. BALL. That would be the entry to the homicide and robbery?

Mr. FRITZ. Homicide and robbery bureau.

Mr. BALL. This is your office?

Mr. FRITZ. My office opens right here.

Mr. BALL. Off of the hall?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Off the homicide and robbery?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes; there should be another line, wait just a minute. There is a little mistake right here, would it be all right if I correct it?

Mr. BALL. Go ahead and correct it, your office is farther back from the hall, isn't it?

Mr. FRITZ. You see this, coming up from the hall, down at this end the administrative office, the chief's office, and the dispatcher's office over here, and over here is the chief's office back here, here are some assistant chiefs all along here, and in this corner. Now, in coming down this hall, this is open right in here that makes a square that goes into the other building in city hall, and this comes to the elevators, the elevators are right here.

Now then, right here in this little jail office, a little small office for the jail elevators right here, and two toilets right here. Now then, this should have a hallway in here like that, beginning right here.

Mr. BALL. You are adding to Chief Curry's map showing a little hallway?

Mr. FRITZ. That is right. This is the lieutenant's office right here.

Mr. BALL. You are marking "Lieutenant's office."

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; and that is his--that is placed there just like my office is, and right at the end of this hall, right here, using a little part of that probably, but in there is a little conference room right in here which comes clear across here.

Here, I have a desk, a metal desk with all the records, daily record, the working records stacked right on here for the benefit of the officers who work in this squadroom right here with these desks.

Mr. BALL. Where is the door to your office?

Mr. FRITZ. Here is the door to my office right here.

Mr. BALL. Mark that, please. Show me where Oswald was kept.

Mr. FRITZ. In this little place right here.

Mr. BALL. Put a big X there where Oswald was kept.

Mr. FRITZ. At first?

Mr. BALL. At first.

Mr. FRITZ. He was there when I came in. We didn't keep him there long.

Mr. BALL. That was only a few steps from your office?

Mr. FRITZ. Only a few steps. That is where he was when I came into the office.

Mr. BALL. In the room marked "X" on this Exhibit No. 701 is where he was?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. After a few moments you had him come in, in a little while, to your office?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Do you have that in time when he came into your office?

Mr. FRITZ. The chief's map would have been, I could have made this better if I had used the chief's map and put the lieutenant's office over here.

Mr. BALL. Don't worry about it. That is close enough. We have him from X which is the conference room into your office.

Mr. FRITZ. Yes; my desk is right here and I sit behind it right here and there are some chairs and telephone table right here and I had him sitting in a chair, right here.

Mr. BALL. Right beside you?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I have other chairs along here.

Mr. BALL. All right.

Now, Captain, about what time did you first bring him to your office?

Mr. FRITZ. Let's see, I have it right here. Oswald was arrested at 1:40 and I think he was taken to the city hall about 2:15 and I started talking to him probably a little bit after that.

Mr. BALL. About what time?

Don't you have a time marked in your report there?

Mr. FRITZ. I think so.

Mr. BALL. Of 2:25.

Mr. FRITZ. 2:25?

Mr. BALL. On page 237 of your report, your report of Sims and Boyd refers to a time that he was brought to your room, and I believe 165.

Mr. FRITZ. My report, my report should have a report right there that should show it. This shows here 2:15 and I don't think that is right.

Mr. BALL. Mr. Baker's report on 165 gives the time also.

Mr. FRITZ. The nearest that I have here then would be shortly after 2:15 p.m.

Mr. BALL. You will notice that Sims and Boyd make it, state they brought him from the conference room to your office at about 2:20.

Mr. FRITZ. That might be all right because I have 2:15 here but I think 2:15 may be 5 or 10 minutes too early.

Mr. BALL. It was soon after you got there?

Mr. FRITZ. Soon after I got there.

Mr. BALL. That you brought him into your office?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Who was present when you talked with him?

Mr. FRITZ. At that time, when I first brought him in there there would be Sims and Boyd and probably one or two officers from the office, I am not sure, just who else might have been there. I know those two, I am sure, I believe those two were there. Just about the time I started talking to him, I had just started to question him, I got a phone call from Mr. Shanklin, Gordon Shanklin, agent in charge of the FBI calling for Mr. Bookhout, and I asked Mr. Bookhout to go to pick up the extension.

Mr. BALL. Was Mr. Bookhout there?

Mr. FRITZ. He had just come into the lieutenant's office and Mr. Shanklin asked that Mr. Hosty be in on that questioning, he said he wanted him in there because of Mr. Hosty knowing these people and he had been talking to them and he wanted him in there right then.

So, I got up from my desk and walked over to the lieutenant's office and asked Mr. Bookhout to come in, the reason I asked both of them to come in and Mr. Bookhout is in my office most of every day and works with us in a lot of cases and asked him to come in with Mr. Hosty.

Mr. BALL. So Bookhout and Hosty came into your office?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Was anyone else present?

Mr. FRITZ. I don't remember whether there was anyone else right at that time or not.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember what you said to Oswald and what he said to you?

Mr. FRITZ. I can remember the thing that I said to him and what he said to me, but I will have trouble telling you which period of questioning those questions were in because I kept no notes at the time, and these notes and things that I have made I would have to make several days later, and the questions may be in the wrong place.

Mr. BALL. What is your best memory of what you said to him when he first came in?

Mr. FRITZ. I first asked him as I do of most people something about where he was from, and where he was raised and his education, and I asked him where he went to school and he told me he went to school in New York for a while, he had gone to school in Fort Worth some, that he didn't finish high school, that he went to the Marines, and the Marines, and finished high school training in the Marines.

And I don't remember just what else. I asked him just the general questions for getting acquainted with him, and so I would see about how to talk to him, and Mr. Hosty spoke up and asked him something about Russia, and asked him if he had been to Russia, and he asked him if he had been to Mexico City, and this irritated Oswald a great deal and he beat on the desk and went into a kind of a tantrum.

Mr. BALL. What did he say when he was asked if he had been to Mexico City?

Mr. FRITZ. He said he had not been. He did say he had been to Russia, he was in Russia, I believe he said for some time.

Mr. BALL. He said he had not been in Mexico City?

Mr. FRITZ. At that time he told me he had not been in Mexico City.

Mr. BALL. Who asked the question whether or not he had been to Mexico City?

Mr. FRITZ. Mr. Hosty. I wouldn't have known anything about Mexico City.

Mr. BALL. Was there anything said about Oswald's wife?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir. He said, he told Hosty, he said, "I know you." He said, "You accosted my wife on two occasions," and he was getting pretty irritable and so I wanted to quiet him down a little bit because I noticed if I talked to him in a calm, easy manner it wasn't very hard to get him to settle down, and I asked him what he meant by accosting, I thought maybe he meant some physical abuse or something and he said, "Well, he threatened her." And he said, "He practically told her she would have to go back to Russia." And he said, "He accosted her on two different occasions."

Mr. BALL. Was there anything said about where he lived?

Mr. FRITZ. Where he lived? Right at that time?

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mr. FRITZ. I am sure I had no way of asking him where he lived but I am not too sure about that--just how quick he told me because he corrected me, I thought he lived in Irving and he told me he didn't live in Irving. He lived on Beckley as the officer had told me outside.

(At this point Mr. Dulles entered the hearing room.)

Mr. FRITZ. And I asked him about that arrangement and I am again, I can't be too sure when this question was asked. I asked him why his wife was living in Irving and why he was living on Beckley and he said she was living with Mrs. Paine. Mrs. Paine was trying to learn to speak Russian and that his wife, Mrs. Oswald, had a small baby and Mrs. Paine helped with the baby and his wife taught Mrs. Paine Russian and it made a good arrangement for both of them and he stayed over in town. I thought it was kind of an awkward arrangement and I questioned him about the arrangement a little bit and I asked him how often he went out there and he said weekends.