Part 30

Well, Lieutenant Pierce went downstairs and got a car and he got Sergeant Putnam and I don't recall the other sergeant, and because the ramp that ordinarily we would use for exit ramp to Commerce Street, it was blocked with this armored car and another vehicle, he went out in the wrong direction, that is he went north, up to north, he went north on the ramp to Main Street which ordinarily would not be done, but since he could not get out, why he did, and as he approached the ramp, our investigation showed that Officer Vaughn stepped from his assignment in the entrance to this ramp, and the walk is about 10 or 12 feet wide there, stepped across and just more or less assisted the car to get into the Main Street flow of traffic.

Now he wasn't asked to do this by the lieutenant, but he just did it and according to what Ruby told some of my officers, I believe, whether you have it on the record who he told this to, that he came down that north ramp.

Mr. RANKIN. At that time?

Mr. CURRY. At that time.

Now this would only have been, it couldn't have possibly been over 2 or 3 minutes prior to the shooting, so apparently he went right down that ramp and he got in behind some of these newspaper reporters or news media and detectives, and as Oswald was brought out he sprang from behind one of my detectives and took about two steps and shoved a gun in Oswald's side and pulled the trigger.

This officer, in talking to him, he made a report, he swears that he didn't see anybody go in there.

Mr. RANKIN. By this officer, you mean Vaughn?

Mr. CURRY. Officer Vaughn. He did, I asked him myself or asked the investigating officers to see if he wouldn't take a polygraph test concerning this, just to verify his position in it, and he agreed to take the polygraph test and did take the polygraph test and the polygraph test revealed that he was not aware that Ruby came in while he stepped, when he stepped away from the entrance of that door.

Now I am not here to place the blame on anybody because, as I have said previously, as head of the department, I have got to accept the responsibility for what goes on there.

But if Officer Vaughn had properly carried out his assignment, I don't believe that Ruby could have gotten into the basement of the city hall.

Mr. McCLOY. Unless he had credentials, media credentials?

Mr. CURRY. That is correct.

Mr. McCLOY. We haven't verified whether or not he did have anything?

Mr. CURRY. We haven't been able to verify that. There were none found on his person.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you make any inquiry as to whether or not any of the police force were involved with Ruby in this shooting?

Mr. CURRY. We got reports and interrogated every officer who was there.

Mr. RANKIN. What did you find out?

Mr. CURRY. We didn't find any officer who knew he was down there or that had in any way assisted him in getting there. No one.

Mr. RANKIN. You are satisfied that none of them were involved in trying to have Oswald shot?

Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir; I certainly am.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you make inquiry to determine whether there was any evidence that anyone else was involved with Ruby in trying to shoot Oswald?

Mr. CURRY. We made every effort we could in our investigation. We were not able to determine any tieup between any other individual and Ruby or Oswald.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you make any inquiry to determine whether or not anyone else was involved with Oswald in the assassination of the President?

Mr. CURRY. We attempted to. Every lead we came upon we followed it out to see whether or not we could make any connection between Ruby, Oswald, or any other group.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you discover any evidence that would tend to show that Oswald had any support in the assassination?

Mr. CURRY. No; we did not.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you discover any evidence that would prove Ruby was involved with any other person in the killing of Oswald?

Mr. CURRY. We were not able to determine any connection.

Mr. DULLES. I will just ask one question, if I may, here.

It was Officer Vaughn, I understand, who had the direct responsibility for checking the credentials.

Mr. CURRY. Of that door, of that particular door.

Mr. DULLES. That door. Is there any evidence that Officer Vaughn knew of Ruby?

Mr. CURRY. I don't believe he did.

Mr. DULLES. Has that been looked into?

Mr. CURRY. He was asked that, and if I remember correctly in his deposition he didn't know him.

Mr. DULLES. He testified he didn't know him?

Mr. CURRY. I believe so, I am not confident of that, but they have had his deposition here, which I am sure would reveal that.

Mr. DULLES. Do you know----

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. McCLOY. Do you know, chief, anybody on the staff, on your staff, on the police staff, that was particularly close to Ruby?

Mr. CURRY. No, sir; I do not.

Mr. McCLOY. I would want to go back for a little while on one thing.

How did it happen the description was broadcast so quickly after the event? Can you explain the circumstances under which----

Mr. CURRY. I am merely giving an opinion here.

Mr. McCLOY. Yes.

Mr. CURRY. I think the reason it was when they found out at the Texas School Book Depository that this employee when they were checking employees and they found out this employee was missing, that they presumed he must or could have had some connection between the shooting of the President and the fact that he was not present at this time.

Mr. McCLOY. Can you describe the mechanics or the machinery by which this did get on to, this material on to the broadcast, that is----

Mr. BALL. Could I go off the record on it?

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. CURRY. No, sir; other than, I am sure that someone put it over a police radio to our dispatcher and he put it then, he broadcast it.

Mr. McCLOY. That is someone on the scene would presumably communicate with headquarters?

Mr. CURRY. With the dispatcher. He would rebroadcast it to all units.

Mr. McCLOY. And he would rebroadcast it to all the units?

Mr. CURRY. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. You have given us, I think, an estimate or approximate estimate of the number of officers you thought that knew Ruby, and I believe it was about 25 out of the whole force.

Mr. CURRY. This is just--I mean this is not--I couldn't say this was a real accurate number, but I am just presuming from just talking to people in the department. I would say that certainly no more than 50 men knew anything about him at all.

Mr. DULLES. Have you made any effort to find out and run down these men that did know?

Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. You have?

Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. And how many have you actually discovered did know Ruby from that investigation?

Mr. CURRY. I don't have the exact number, but I am guessing it probably would be 25 or 30 men.

Mr. DULLES. Twenty-five men whom you have interrogated with regard to their association with Ruby?

Mr. CURRY. That knew him in some capacity. That knew him in some capacity.

Mr. DULLES. Mr. Rankin, do we have depositions on this point?

Mr. RANKIN. We have inquired of everyone deposed as to what he knew about Jack Ruby, what acquaintance, any prior connections.

Mr. DULLES. You mean all the police officers who were----

Mr. RANKIN. Who were interrogated, but, of course, we didn't cover any 1,200 men.

Mr. DULLES. Did you cover all those that were present that morning?

Mr. CURRY. I believe we asked anyone in the police department who knew Ruby to let us know about it. And then I think anyone that knew him, the names were turned over to those people here. We covered all that such an inquiry would reveal but we didn't purport to cover--well, we covered something like a hundred out of 1,200.

We requested by departmental order any police officer who knew Jack Ruby make it known to us, and then he was interrogated about it.

Mr. RANKIN. Of those interrogated that would probably include all of those present the day of the shooting of Oswald, the morning of the shooting of Oswald at the time of the transfer?

Mr. CURRY. I believe it would.

Mr. RANKIN. All that we knew were present at all, and beyond that, too, have been interrogated.

Mr. CURRY. Yes.

Mr. McCLOY. When Officer 78, that is Tippit was directed to the Oak Cliff area that was simply because the Oak Cliff area was sort of a center of activity at that point?

Mr. CURRY. At that time.

Mr. McCLOY. It wasn't--it wasn't because you were trying to or had any idea that the suspect might have been there?

Mr. CURRY. Not from the Presidential shooting, but we were sure that the suspect in the Officer Tippit shooting was in the central area.

Mr. McCLOY. But Tippit was still alive on the first direction to him to go out there?

Mr. CURRY. That was because some of the squad had been moved out of the Oak Cliff into the Dallas area. You see, this is across the river.

Mr. McCLOY. What is the Oak Cliff area?

Mr. RANKIN. I think that ought to be clarified. Chief Curry, wasn't your testimony that Tippit was in the Oak Cliff area of Dallas?

Mr. CURRY. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. And then he was directed to move to the central Oak Cliff area?

Mr. CURRY. That is correct.

Mr. RANKIN. Move in closer, and so he was in it, his regular beat, as I understand it, was in the Oak Cliff area, isn't that right?

Mr. CURRY. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. And is Oak Cliff a suburb or what is it?

Mr. CURRY. It is not exactly a suburb, but it is physically separated. It used to be a separate municipality and some years ago----

Mr. RANKIN. Where does it lie?

Mr. CURRY. It lies west of Dallas proper and across the Trinity River and the only means of going to Oak Cliff, going to and from Oak Cliff is by means of viaduct so there is a physical separation between Oak Cliff and Dallas, and some of the squads had been pulled out of the Oak Cliff area and to come over to the Elm and Houston area to assist in the investigation of this shooting, and it would be normal procedure as squads go out of an area for the squads further out to move in in the event something does happen in this area they would have a squad that wouldn't be so far removed from it.

Mr. DULLES. This direction had nothing to do with any suspicion that you might have had that the assassin might be going into this area?

Mr. CURRY. No, sir; none at all.

Mr. DULLES. It was purely a maneuver to cover an area which had been evacuated or been left uncovered because of the assassination and the reassignment of squads?

Mr. CURRY. The reassignment of squads, that is right.

Mr. McCLOY. Because of the withdrawal of people of the Oak Cliff area into the Houston Street area?

Mr. CURRY. That is correct. So we pulled some of the squads further assigned to the area into the most central area to cover anything that might happen so they would be in position to go out or come in.

Mr. McCLOY. That does clear it up.

Mr. RANKIN. Will you tell us on the record what was normal procedure that you just spoke about?

Mr. CURRY. Normal procedure would be when we have a great number of squads on assignment in an area, in their particular district, as squads go out of service, say they are checking out, to haul prisoners into the jails or they are on calls, it just is automatic they are instructed in school when they go to school if the adjoining squad goes out of service, doesn't stay, say he adjoins you on the east, don't go to the far west side of your district, go to the east side of your district where you could be on the west side of his district, so if something else occurs in his district you would be in a position to answer the call.

Ordinarily it is not necessary for us to, so that squads go to getting out of service, to go and rearrange squads.

In this particular instance, when he asked 81 and 78 if they were in central Oak Cliff they said yes, but they were moving there because this would be a normal thing to do, to move into an area where other squads had gone out of service.

Mr. RANKIN. You told us about your efforts to try to determine whether subversive groups or groups that might have an interest in making trouble for a trip of the President were going to try to do anything. Would you tell us what you did about that in more detail?

Mr. CURRY. I gave you a copy of this, and I would like to read it for the record, if you would like me to.

Mr. RANKIN. We will offer that.

Mr. CURRY. All right.

This is a copy of a report submitted to me by Lieutenant Jack Revill, criminal intelligence section of the special service bureau.

Mr. RANKIN. I will hand you Exhibit No. 710 and ask you if that isn't a copy of what you are referring to.

Mr. CURRY. Yes; it is.

Mr. RANKIN. You won't have to read that. Chief, if you will just describe in a general way what was done that you know about and then I will offer that to show what it proves.

Mr. CURRY. In essence, this report says prior to the announcement of the President's visit, there were rumors he would visit Dallas and because of these rumors the intelligence section increased its efforts in attempting to get data concerning not only extremists and subversive groups.

Mr. RANKIN. How do they do that?

Mr. CURRY. They usually have an informant inside the organization. Sometimes it may be one of our own men.

Mr. RANKIN. I see.

That was with regard to the persons listed on that Exhibit 710?

Mr. CURRY. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know of any other efforts besides that?

Mr. CURRY. No, sir; these are all that I know of except we did in one instance go to the cities outside of Dallas, towns outside of Dallas to talk to some people that had rumored that they would do something to embarrass the President. These organizations are listed as the Ku Klux Klan, the Indignant White Citizens Council, National States Rights Party, the John Birch Society, Dallas White Citizens Council, Oak Cliff White Citizens Council, General Walker group, American Opinion Forum, Dallas Committee for Full Citizenship, Young Peoples Socialist League, Dallas Civil Liberties Union, Texas White Citizens Council, and Black Muslims.

Mr. RANKIN. I will hand you Exhibit 709 which you have furnished us this morning, and ask you, can you tell us how you got that exhibit?

Mr. CURRY. This exhibit was a report that was submitted to me from Jack Revill, who is a lieutenant, in the criminal intelligence section.

Mr. RANKIN. That is the same man who is referred to in Exhibit 710?

Mr. CURRY. Yes, it is; their assignment is to keep track of these groups that we have talked about, possible subversive or extremist groups and try to know something about their plans, their movements.

Mr. RANKIN. How did you get that information described in Exhibit 709?

Mr. CURRY. It was given to me on November 22d at 2:50 p.m., or shortly thereafter, but I mean the information came to him at that time, and he passed it on to me, later that day.

Mr. RANKIN. Would you tell us how you secured Exhibit 711?

Mr. CURRY. This is a report from Officer V. J. Brian, B-r-i-a-n, who is a detective in the criminal intelligence section, and was present when Lieutenant Revill, when the information submitted was given to Lieutenant Revill.

Mr. RANKIN. I would like to offer Exhibits 709, 710, and 711.

Mr. DULLES. They will be admitted.

(The documents referred to were marked Commission Exhibit Nos. 709, 710, and 711 for identification and received in evidence.)

Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chairman, I think we should have a recess now until 2 o'clock.

Mr. McCLOY. One more question.

Was there any talk that you heard around before the, after the apprehension of Oswald and his time set for his removal from police headquarters to the jail, was there any talk that you heard in the corridors or elsewhere about lynching or possible lynching?

Mr. CURRY. No, sir. The only information I had was that the FBI, someone from the FBI passed the information to the city hall during the night that they had had a call that said, I believe the FBI sent this call, that there was a group of 100 who would take that prisoner away from us before he got to the county jail.

Mr. McCLOY. But this came from outside the jail?

Mr. CURRY. Yes; outside.

Mr. McCLOY. You never heard any threats uttered within the jail?

Mr. CURRY. No.

Mr. DULLES. Another general question: Have you any comments or anything you would like to say about the cooperation between the Dallas police, the Secret Service, and the FBI during this period immediately following, prior to and immediately following the assassination?

Mr. CURRY. No, sir. We have always had the best of cooperation between both of these Federal units, and all other units of the Federal and State government. I feel sure that they thought this information was important to us, they probably would have given it to us. But we certainly have not had any trouble with the FBI or with the Secret Service in any of our past associations.

Mr. DULLES. I was going a little further. I mean, was the cooperation whole-hearted and open and frank as far as you could tell?

Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir; as far as I could tell, it was.

Mr. DULLES. Was there any problem created because of the possible--not conflict of authority, but question as to who had responsibility of particular areas here as between you as chief of police and the Secret Service and the FBI?

Mr. CURRY. Prior to the President's visit, no; there was nothing there.

Mr. DULLES. Prior to or subsequent to?

Mr. CURRY. Now, subsequent to that, we felt this, that this was a murder that had been committed in the county, city and county of Dallas, and that we had prior, I mean we had jurisdiction over this. The FBI actually had no jurisdiction over it, the Secret Service actually had no jurisdiction over it. But in an effort to cooperate with these agencies we went all out to do whatever they wanted us to do that we could do to let them observe what was taking place, but actually we knew that this was a case that happened in Dallas, Tex., and would have to be tried in Dallas, Tex., and it was our responsibility to gather the evidence and present the evidence.

We kept getting calls from the FBI. They wanted this evidence up in Washington, in the laboratory, and there was some discussion, Fritz told me, he says, "Well, I need the evidence here, I need to get some people to try to identify the gun, to try to identify this pistol and these things, and if it is in Washington how can I do it?"

But we finally, the night, about midnight of Friday night, we agreed to let the FBI have all the evidence and they said they would bring it to their laboratory and they would have an agent stand by and when they were finished with it to return it to us.

Mr. DULLES. An agent of the police force, you mean?

Mr. CURRY. An agent of the FBI.

Mr. DULLES. FBI?

Mr. CURRY. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. There was no agent of the Dallas police that went to Washington with the evidence?

Mr. CURRY. Not to my knowledge.

Mr. RANKIN. Did that work out all right so far?

Mr. CURRY. Well, not exactly, because they were to give us pictures of everything that was brought to Washington, and Fritz tells me that some of these little items that it was very poor reproduction of some of the items on microfilm.

Subsequently they photographed these things in Washington and sent us copies, some 400, I think, 400 copies of different items. So far as I know, we have never received any of that evidence back. It is still in Washington, I guess.

Perhaps the Commission has it.

Mr. RANKIN. Yes; the Commission is still working with it.

Mr. CURRY. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. But apparently the FBI tried to carry out their agreement with you, didn't they?

Mr. CURRY. Yes; they did.

Mr. RANKIN. And it is a question of whether or not their reproductions were as good as you would like to have?

Mr. CURRY. There were made, some of them, in the office down in Dallas, they were in a tremendous hurry to get all of these items to the laboratory here in Washington, and our only concern was this, that if this case is tried in Dallas, we need the evidence to be presented here in a court in Dallas and we were a little bit apprehensive about it if it gets to Washington will it be available to us when we need it. If we need somebody to identify, attempt to identify the gun or other items will it be here for them to see?

And that was our only concern.

We got several calls insisting we send this, and nobody would tell me exactly who it was that was insisting, "just say I got a call from Washington, and they wanted this evidence up there," insinuated it was someone in high authority that was requesting this, and we finally agreed as a matter of trying to cooperate with them, actually.

Mr. DULLES. Have you any more questions?

Mr. McCLOY. Not at this stage.

Mr. RANKIN. Shall we convene at 2?

Mr. DULLES. Mr. Murray, do you have any?

Mr. MURRAY. No, thank you.

(Whereupon, at 12:45 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)

Afternoon Session

TESTIMONY OF JESSE EDWARD CURRY RESUMED

The President's Commission reconvened at 2 p.m.

Mr. McCLOY. (presiding). We are ready.

Mr. RANKIN. Chief Curry, I was asking you just as we closed your examination before lunch about Exhibits 709, 711 particularly, and you will recall those are the documents concerning the conversation between Agent Hosty of the FBI and Jack Revill who is your lieutenant of criminal intelligence section, is that right?

Mr. CURRY. It was reported to me, I was given a report to that effect.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know anything about the matters described in those letters?

Mr. CURRY. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Will you tell us what you know about them? Do you want to see them?

Mr. CURRY. Yes. One of the documents tells me that Lieutenant Revill states that about 2:50 p.m. on the 22d----

Mr. RANKIN. Of what?

Mr. CURRY. November 1963, that he met Special Agent Jim Hosty of the FBI in the basement of the city hall, and at that time Agent Hosty related to Revill that the subject, Oswald, was a member of the Communist Party, and that he was residing in Dallas.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you make any further inquiry after you got that information?

Mr. CURRY. None other than I had a report from V. J. Brian, a detective in criminal intelligence, who was present at the time this conversation took place.

Mr. RANKIN. That later report was as of April 20?

Mr. CURRY. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. 1964?

Mr. CURRY. The last report.

Mr. RANKIN. What was the occasion for that?

Mr. CURRY. I just asked Revill if anyone was with him at the time, and he recalled that Detective Brian was at the time.

Mr. RANKIN. Otherwise, did you know anything more about that matter?

Mr. CURRY. No, sir; I believe Captain Fritz said that he, he told me he knew they had been out to talk to Mrs. Paine.

Mr. RANKIN. By they, who do you mean?

Mr. CURRY. Some of the FBI agents, and that he did know that Oswald apparently knew Hosty, because Hosty was present in the interrogation room.

Mr. RANKIN. By he there at that point who do you mean?

Mr. CURRY. Oswald.

Mr. RANKIN. Yes; but you say he knew.

Mr. CURRY. That Oswald knew Hosty.

Mr. RANKIN. Yes.

Mr. CURRY. Because according to Fritz he said that he was quite bitter, Oswald was quite bitter toward Hosty because he had made the statement that "you mistreated my wife."

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know how Captain Fritz learned that?

Mr. CURRY. He was in Captain Fritz's office when this statement was made, according to Captain Fritz.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, after the assassination, did you give any orders of your staff, making any reports about anything they knew about either the assassination or the Tippit killing?

Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir; we had all of our officers who knew anything at all about it to submit reports which is a normal procedure in any unusual incident.

Mr. RANKIN. How did you direct that that be done?

Mr. CURRY. Just through my staff.

Mr. RANKIN. Was that in writing?

Mr. CURRY. No, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. You just told them?

Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. And was that direction promptly given?