Part 3

Mr. LATONA. Ridge counting from 5 to 6. That is in the latent print. We must find the same situation in the inked print. Counting from point No. 5 the ridges which intervene, one, two, three, and then we count four, the point itself. There is the bifurcation right here.

Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Latona, in making these ridge counts, do you also pay attention to the so-called, let's say, geographical relation, the spatial relation of the two points?

Mr. LATONA. Very definitely. Now, it does not always follow that the so-called geographical position will coincide exactly the same. That would be caused because of variations in the pressure used when the print was made. For example, when you make a print on a fingerprint card: when the inked print was made, the print was made for the specific purpose of recording all of the ridge details. When the print was left on the paper bag, it was an incidental impression. The person was not trying to leave a print. In fact, he probably did not even know he left one. So the pressure which is left, or the position of the finger when it made the print, will be a little different. Accordingly the geographical area of the points themselves will not always coincide. But they will be in the general position the same.

Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Latona, without going into detail, there are some apparent dissimilarities on the two sides of that chart. Can you explain why there should be apparent dissimilarities?

Mr. LATONA. The dissimilarities as such are caused by the type of material on which the print was left, because of the pressure, because of the amount of material which is on the finger when it left the print. They would not always be exactly the same. Here again there appears a material difference in the sense there is a difference in coloration. This is because of the fact that the contrast in the latent print is not as sharp as it is in the inked impression, which is a definite black on white, whereas here we have more or less a brown on a lighter brown.

Mr. EISENBERG. Now, Mr. Latona, when you find an apparent dissimilarity between an inked and a latent print, how do you know that it is caused by absorption of the surface upon which the latent print is placed, or by failure of the finger to exude material, rather than by the fact that you have a different fingerprint?

Mr. LATONA. That is simply by sheer experience.

Mr. EISENBERG. Would you say, therefore, that the identification of a fingerprint is a task which calls for an expert interpretation, as opposed to a simple point-by-point laying-out which a layman could do?

Mr. LATONA. Very definitely so; yes.

Mr. EISENBERG. How much training does it take before you can make an identification?

Mr. LATONA. Well, I cannot tell you exactly how much in terms of time, insofar as what constitutes an expert. I can simply tell you what we require of our people before they would be considered experts.

Mr. EISENBERG. Yes, could you do that?

Mr. LATONA. We require our people before they would be----

Mr. DULLES. This is the FBI?

Mr. LATONA. Yes; this is the FBI. It would be 10 years of practical work in connection with the classifying and searching and verifying of regular fingerprint cards which bear all 10 prints. Those prints would be searched through our main fingerprint files. That means that that person would have to serve at least 10 years doing that. Of course, he would have to progress from the mere searching operation to the operation of being what we call unit supervisor, which would check--which would be actually the checking of the work of subordinates who do that work. He would be responsible for seeing that the fingerprints are properly searched, properly classified.

Mr. EISENBERG. And how long will he work in the latent fingerprint section?

Mr. LATONA. He would have to take an adaptability test, which would take 3 or 4 days, to determine, first of all, do we feel he has the qualifications for the job. Then if he passed the adaptability test, he would receive a minimum of 1 year's personal training in the latent fingerprint section--which means that he would have to serve at least 11 years in fingerprint work constantly, day in and day out, 8 hours a day in fingerprint work, before we would consider him as a fingerprint expert for purposes of testifying in a court of law.

Mr. EISENBERG. So that when you show us this chart, this is actually, or I should say, is this actually a demonstration, rather than a chart from which we could make an identification?

Mr. LATONA. That's right. The purpose is simply a hope on my part that by my explanation you may have some idea as to how a comparison is made, rather than for me to prove it to you through these charts, because unquestionably there are certain points that you will not see which to me are apparent.

Mr. EISENBERG. Now, Mr. Latona----

Mr. DULLES. May I ask a question? Is this ridge formation, sort of two ridges coming together, is that one of the most distinctive things you look for? I note on these charts, Exhibit 634, the various examples you have given us have been of one type so far.

Mr. LATONA. Two.

Mr. DULLES. I did not get the two. I get the two ridges coming together with sort of the ending of a valley. You were saying there were two distinctive things. I have only caught so far one distinctive thing--that is the two ridges coming together in a kind of valley with no exit.

Mr. LATONA. Two that come together, like a fork. And the other one was the one that just ends by itself--does not join.

Mr. EISENBERG. Which is an interrupted ridge?

Mr. DULLES. I do not get the distinction.

Mr. EISENBERG. Is that an interrupted ridge you just described?

Mr. LATONA. What we call an ending ridge.

Mr. EISENBERG. Off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. EISENBERG. Back on the record. Mr. Latona, could you prepare a diagram which would show some of the characteristics, in broad outline, which we have been discussing, and have those labeled, and could you submit that diagram to us at a future date?

Mr. LATONA. Yes; I could.

Mr. EISENBERG. We will append it to your testimony, so that your testimony may be more easily followed in the record--with the permission of the Chairman.

Representative FORD. It will be prepared and submitted and included in the record.

(The item referred to was later supplied and was marked Commission Exhibit No. 634A.)

Mr. LATONA. Well, if you could give me your indulgence, I could do it right here as fast as I did it on the board.

Representative FORD. Off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

Representative FORD. Back on the record.

Mr. DULLES. These, I understand, are the particular distinguishing points, the points that you would look for to determine whether the latent print----

Mr. LATONA. Not so much the looking for the points, as to finding points having a relationship to each other. It is the relation that is the important thing, not the point itself. In other words, all of us would have to a certain extent these points.

Mr. DULLES. They have to be in the same relation to each other.

Mr. LATONA. That is correct. For example, on the illustration I have here----

Mr. EISENBERG. This is an illustration on the blackboard.

Mr. LATONA. The mere fact that this is an ending ridge and bifurcation and another ending ridge and a dot in themselves mean nothing. This is a type of pattern which is referred to as a loop, which is very common. These comprise approximately 65 percent of pattern types. It has four ridge counts, for example. You can find hundreds of thousands and millions of four-count loops. But you would not find but one loop having an arrangement of these characteristics in the relation that they have. For example, the enclosure is related to this ending ridge. This ending ridge is related by one ridge removed from the dot. This bifurcation is next to the so-called core which is formed by a rod, the ending ridge.

The points themselves are common. The most common type of points are the ending ridge and the bifurcation. Those are the two points we have covered so far.

Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Latona, I see that you have marked nine characteristics on your chart. Are these all the characteristics which you were able to find----

Mr. LATONA. On this particular chart; yes. They were the only ones that bore--actually, there is still one more characteristic--there could have been 10.

Mr. EISENBERG. Now, is there any minimum number of points that has to be found in order to make an identification, in your opinion?

Mr. LATONA. No; in my opinion, there are no number of points which are a requirement. Now, there is a general belief among lots of fingerprint people that a certain number of points are required. It is my opinion that this is an erroneous assumption that they have taken, because of the fact that here in the United States a person that qualifies in court as an expert has the right merely to voice an opinion as to whether two prints were made by the same finger or not made. There are no requirements, there is no standard by which a person can say that a certain number of points are required--primarily because of the fact that there is such a wide variance in the experience of men who qualify as fingerprint experts.

Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Latona, you said that not all experts are in agreement on this subject. Is there any substantial body of expert opinion that holds to a minimum number of points, let's say, 12?

Mr. LATONA. In the United States, to my knowledge, I know of no group or body that subscribe to a particular number. Now, quite frequently some of these departments will maintain a standard for themselves, by virtue of the fact that they will say, "Before we will make an identification, we must find a minimum of 12 points of similarity."

I am quite certain that the reason for that is simply to avoid the possibility of making an erroneous identification. Now, why they have picked 12--I believe that that 12-point business originated because of a certain article which was written by a French fingerprint examiner by the name of Edmond Locard back in 1917, I think--there was a publication to the effect that in his opinion where there were 12 points of similarity, there was no chance of making an erroneous identification. If there were less than 12, he voiced the conclusion that the chances would increase as to finding duplicate prints.

Now, today we in the FBI do not subscribe to that theory at all. We simply say this: We have confidence in our experts to the extent that regardless of the number of points, if the expert who has been assigned to the case for purposes of making the examination gives an opinion, we will not question the number of points. We have testified--I personally have testified in court to as few as seven points of similarity.

Mr. DULLES. But you would not on two, would you?

Mr. LATONA. No, sir; because I know that two points, even though they would not be duplicate points, could be arranged in such a fashion that it might possibly give me the impression that here are two points which appear to be the same even though they are are not.

Mr. DULLES. But it is somewhere between two and seven--somewhere in that range?

Mr. LATONA. That is right. Where that is, I do not know. And I would not say whether I would testify to six, would I testify to five, would I refuse to testify to four.

Mr. DULLES. You say you would--or would you?

Mr. LATONA. I don't know. That's a question I could not answer. I would have to see each case individually before I could render a conclusion.

Now, going outside of the United States, we have been approached--I mean the FBI--have been approached by other foreign experts in an attempt to set a worldwide standard of 16 characteristics, a minimum of 16, as opposed to 12, which is generally referred to by people in this country here. Now of course we would not subscribe to that at all. And I think----

Mr. DULLES. That would be 16 on the fingerprint of the same finger?

Mr. LATONA. That's right.

Mr. DULLES. Obviously, if you have two fingers that would alter the number--if you had three on one and two on the other, would you consider that five?

Mr. LATONA. We would.

Now, whether the foreign experts would not, I don't know. In other words, if we were to go along with this European theory of 16 points, we would not testify to this being an identification. That is really what it would amount to. Yet to me, in my mind, there is no question that these prints here----

Mr. EISENBERG. Which is what exhibit?

Mr. LATONA. The enlargements in Exhibit 634--are simply reproductions of the left index fingerprint of Lee Harvey Oswald.

Representative FORD. There is no doubt in your mind about that?

Mr. LATONA. Absolutely none at all. The fact that there are only the nine points charted--and I feel this way, it is purely a matter of experience. They simply do not have the experience that we have in the FBI. The FBI has the world's largest practical fingerprint file. We receive on an average of 23,000 to 25,000 cards a day which are processed within a 3-day period.

Mr. DULLES. In a 3-day period?

Mr. LATONA. In a 3-day period.

Mr. DULLES. And by processed do you mean they are filed according to certain characteristics?

Mr. LATONA. They are. At first they are recorded as having been received from a particular agency, as to the number that we have received, as to the type of the card. Then they are checked to see if the impressions which are on the fingerprint card are complete and legible, that they are placed in their proper sequence, that is they are properly classified.

Then they are checked through our files to see if the person has or has not a prior criminal record. Then a reply is prepared and forwarded to the contributor. That is done in a 3-day period.

Mr. DULLES. How old is the art, roughly?

Mr. LATONA. Insofar as this country is concerned, I would say back to 1903, when the first fingerprint file for purposes of classification and filing was set up in this country in New York.

Mr. DULLES. Did it start in France?

Mr. LATONA. No. Really, I daresay the English were probably as early as any, or even down to South America--you have in Argentina the setting up of fingerprint files as early as 1891. For a long time we never recognized the fact that Argentina had a fingerprint file. I think it is primarily because all of the works on fingerprinting were written in Spanish, and it was just a question of finding somebody to take the time and effort to translate it into English.

The French are credited with the so-called Bertillon system, which is a measurement of the bone structure of the body. Alphone Bertillon was a French----

Mr. DULLES. Didn't Bertillon go into fingerprints later?

Mr. LATONA. Very reluctantly. He was very reluctant to accept it. He was a sort of diehard. He felt that his method, the measurement of certain bones of the body, would not change after a person reached the adult stage. But we know that that is not true. There is a change--because of age, disease, dissipation. A person that was once 6'2" may, because of the fact he is getting older, hump down a little more and instead of being 6'2" he might be 5'11". Certain bone structures over the years make certain changes--plus the fact that his system was not a good system in that certain allowances had to be made because of the way that people were measured.

Sometimes one operator might measure the bones of the arm, for example, too tight, and another too loose. And they used the metric system of measurement, which in terms of their measuring might sometimes mean that the same person would not measure the same bone the same way twice.

We have the celebrated case here which we refer to as the Will West case, here in the United States, in which a man was sentenced to the penitentiary in Leavenworth. He was a colored man by the name of Will West. The operator there, going through the mechanics of taking the various measurements and his photograph, said, "I see you are back here again." The man said, "No, this is the first time I have been to Leavenworth." The operator was certain he had measured and photographed this man before. He went to check his records and he came up with a prior record which disclosed a Will West who had practically the same Bertillon measurements as the man currently being examined.

He said, "Isn't this you?" And he showed him a picture. He looked at the picture and recognized the picture as being one of himself. He said, "Yes, that is me, but I have never been here before."

They checked the records and found still there in the penitentiary was another Will West who looked almost exactly like a twin. But they were not even related. Their features were the same, their measurements were the same, but then their fingerprints were completely different.

If they made that error that one time, how many other times could the same error have been made? And accordingly, we here in the United States, around 1903--the Bertillon method was slowly put out of use. It became obsolete.

Bertillon, before he died, conceded that fingerprints was a good means of identification, and he very reluctantly conceded that the two systems, his method and fingerprints together, would be an absolute means of identification.

We completely did away with the Bertillon system. In fact, the FBI never used it. We started our fingerprint work years after all that had been resolved, back in 1924.

On July 1, 1924, that is actually when the FBI went into the fingerprint business.

Mr. DULLES. Thank you very much. I found that very interesting.

Representative FORD. Go ahead, Mr. Eisenberg.

Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Latona, did you also prepare a chart showing a comparison of the latent and known left-index fingerprint of Lee Harvey Oswald found on the paper bag, Exhibit 626?

Mr. LATONA. The left index finger. That is the one we just discussed.

Mr. EISENBERG. I'm sorry--the right palmprint.

Mr. LATONA. Right.

Mr. EISENBERG. And before we go any further, I should state for the record that the exhibit we have been referring to as 626 was earlier introduced as 142, and it is 142.

Mr. DULLES. Off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. DULLES. Back on the record.

Mr. EISENBERG. Also, before we get to the palmprint----

Mr. DULLES. Just a moment. It seems to me it would be well to have for the files of the Commission copies of the earlier fingerprints of Lee Harvey Oswald that were taken, and the time that they were taken.

Mr. EISENBERG. I agree, sir. Mr. Latona----

Mr. LATONA. Do I understand you are asking----

Mr. EISENBERG. I will develop this on the record.

Mr. Latona, you had earlier submitted to us, and we had marked as an exhibit, copies of fingerprint cards and two palmprint cards which were made up by the Dallas police and forwarded to you, received by you from your Dallas office; is that correct?

Mr. LATONA. Yes, sir.

Mr. EISENBERG. Now, in addition, did the Federal Bureau of Investigation have in its files prints of Lee Harvey Oswald which it had received at some earlier date, prior to November 22?

Mr. LATONA. Yes, sir; I believe there is a Marine Corps print.

Mr. EISENBERG. Would these prints have been taken by the FBI?

Mr. LATONA. No; they would not.

Mr. EISENBERG. They were taken by----

Mr. LATONA. The regular service.

Mr. EISENBERG. And forwarded to the FBI?

Mr. LATONA. That's right.

Mr. EISENBERG. Did you compare the 10-finger card which you received from the Dallas office of the FBI and compare it with the Marine fingerprint card?

Mr. LATONA. Yes, sir.

Mr. EISENBERG. Were they identical?

Mr. LATONA. They were the same.

Mr. EISENBERG. Were the palmprints taken by the Marines?

Mr. LATONA. No; not to my knowledge.

Mr. EISENBERG. Could you submit to us a copy of the 10-print card which you received from the Marine Corps?

Mr. LATONA. Yes; I could.

Mr. EISENBERG. With the Chairman's permission, that will be appended as an exhibit to Mr. Latona's testimony.

Representative FORD. Do you wish to identify it by a number at this time?

Mr. EISENBERG. Yes. If we could give it a number in advance of receiving it, I would like to give it Commission Exhibit No. 635.

(The item referred to was later supplied and was marked Commission Exhibit No. 635.)

Representative FORD. It will be admitted.

Mr. DULLES. Do you know whether any fingerprints were taken after Lee Harvey Oswald returned from the Soviet Union?

Mr. LATONA. Those after he was arrested in connection with this particular offense.

Mr. DULLES. Apart from the fingerprints obtained in connection with the assassination.

Mr. LATONA. I do not.

Mr. DULLES. Do you have a right to go to anybody and demand their fingerprints?

Mr. LATONA. No.

Mr. DULLES. Under law?

Mr. LATONA. No, sir; only persons taken into custody for Federal violations as such. Now, the FBI has actually no authority at all, except in cases of making an arrest.

Mr. DULLES. There is nothing done in connection with the census or anything of that kind?

Mr. LATONA. No, sir. Some persons are ordered, by virtue of being aliens, to be fingerprinted--those that are domiciled here in the United States must register under the Alien Registration Act.

Mr. DULLES. And fingerprints then are taken of aliens in connection with their registration?

Mr. LATONA. That's right.

Mr. DULLES. Otherwise there is no general procedure for the taking of anybody that you may happen to want to take?

Mr. LATONA. The Services, of course, require it. Applicants for certain positions are required by law. For example, all civil service, Federal civil service applicants must be fingerprinted. Locally, there are certain local cases. For example a man may in some localities, if he even applies for a chauffeur's license, has to be fingerprinted. If he desires a gun permit, he has to be fingerprinted. In some places, if he applies for certain jobs he must be fingerprinted.

Mr. DULLES. As I recall, I gave a fingerprint when I got my automobile license. Is that general throughout the United States?

Mr. LATONA. What State was that?

Mr. DULLES. Here in the District. Didn't I give that?

Mr. LATONA. No, sir. To my knowledge, there are none that require it--fingerprinting--for an automobile license. In California I believe it is voluntary--to place the finger, if you desire to, on your card.

Mr. DULLES. Thank you very much.

Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Latona, Exhibit 630, which is one of the known 10-print cards submitted by the Dallas office, is marked "Refused to sign" in the box with the printed caption "Signature of person fingerprinted." Do you recall whether Lee Harvey Oswald signed the Marine Corps card?

Mr. LATONA. Offhand, I do not.

Mr. EISENBERG. I think it would be interesting, for the record, to see if that is signed, and, of course, as we read the record and get the card, we will be able to note that information.

We were discussing whether you had made a chart of the known and latent right palmprint of Lee Harvey Oswald found on Exhibit 142, as I will refer to it from now on.

Mr. LATONA. I believe I have already furnished you smaller photographs.

Mr. EISENBERG. Yes; you have. Those have been marked into evidence.

Mr. LATONA. This is the inked--the right inked palmprint, a photograph of the right inked palmprint of Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. EISENBERG. You say "this." Can you identify that exhibit? It is 631.

I am handing you Exhibit 632.

Mr. LATONA. Exhibit 632 is approximately a time and a half enlargement of the latent palmprint which was developed on the brown wrapper.

Mr. EISENBERG. That is Exhibit 142.

Mr. LATONA. Exhibit 142--which is indicated by the red arrow A.

Mr. EISENBERG. Did you prepare this chart, Mr. Latona?

Mr. LATONA. Not personally, no. This was made under my personal direction and supervision.