Part 29

Mr. RANKIN. Chief, I put in front of you there as Exhibit 705, now marked as "Exhibit 705," your radio log that you have just been looking at and referred to, is that right?

Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. Will you turn to the page there where you find the first broadcast of the description of the suspect of the assassination of the President? Is that on your page 6 or thereabouts?

Mr. CURRY. The pages--yes, it is page 6, channel 1.

Mr. RANKIN. Will you tell what time of the day that is recorded as having been made?

Mr. CURRY. This shows at the end the broadcast to be 12:45 p.m. It would be on November 22d.

Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chairman, I would like to offer Exhibit 705 being this radio log which covers a great many matters, but in light of the importance of the time and the description and all, I think the entire log should go in and then we can refer to different items in it.

Mr. DULLES. It will be admitted as Commission's Exhibit No. 705.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 705, and received in evidence.)

Mr. RANKIN. Now, will you read to the Commission a description that was given at that time of the suspect of the assassination?

Mr. CURRY. The broadcast reads as follows: "Attention all squads. Attention all squads. At Elm and Houston, reported to be an unknown white male, approximately 30, slender build, height 5 feet 10 inches, 165 pounds. Reported to be armed with what is believed to be a .30-caliber rifle.

"Attention all squads, the suspect is believed to be white male, 30, 5 feet 10 inches, slender build, 165 pounds, armed with what is thought to be a .30-.30 rifle. No further description or information at this time. KKB there 64 Dallas, and the time given as 12:45 p.m."

Mr. RANKIN. You have described Officer Tippit's number?

Mr. CURRY. District 78.

Mr. RANKIN. And that is recorded along the left-hand side when there is any message either from him or to him, is that right?

Mr. CURRY. That is correct.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you find there a message directed to him about moving to the central Oak Cliff area?

Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. And what time is that message recorded?

Mr. CURRY. Immediately following this dispatch to him to district squads 87 and 78, EBG 78.

Mr. RANKIN. What time?

Mr. CURRY. The time is given as 12:46.

Mr. RANKIN. What does it say?

Mr. CURRY. The dispatcher asked him "87 and 78" or instructed him "Move into the central Oak Cliff area."

Mr. RANKIN. Did he respond to that?

Mr. CURRY. A little later he did.

Mr. RANKIN. When?

Mr. CURRY. We have--he was asked his location, would be about 1 o'clock.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he say what it was?

Mr. CURRY. He didn't come back in at that time. At 1:08 p.m. they called him again.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he respond?

Mr. CURRY. It is at 12:54. The dispatcher said "78" and he responded, he said, "You are in the Oak Cliff area, are you not?"

Seventy-eight responded and said, "Lancaster and 8," which would be in the central section of Oak Cliff.

The dispatcher said, "You will be at large for any emergency that comes in."

And he responded, "10-4," which means message received. And he would follow those instructions.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you have an item there of a broadcast of a person who murdered Tippit?

Mr. CURRY. We have apparently--a citizen came in on the radio and he said, "Somebody shot a police officer at 404 10th Street." Someone in the background said 78, squad 78, car No. 10. And the citizen said, "You get that?" and the dispatcher said, "78."

And there was no response and the citizen said, "Hello, police operator, did you get that?" Some other unknown voice came in and said, "510 East Jefferson."

Mr. RANKIN. What time of the day?

Mr. CURRY. This was about 1:15; 1:19 is the next time that shows up on the radio log. The dispatcher at 1:19 said, "The subject is running west on Jefferson from the location."

Citizen came back in on the radio and said, "From out here on 10th street, 500 block, the police officer just shot, I think he is dead." Dispatcher said, "10-4, we have the information."

The citizen using the radio remained off the radio.

Dispatcher to 15, he was the sergeant, said, "Did you receive the information of police officer shot?"

And he said, "10-4, but didn't that citizen say first he was on Jefferson and 10th and then Chesapeake?"

And he said, "Yes."

And he said, "Do they relate?"

And he said, "Yes, at Denver, 19 will be there shortly," that is a sergeant or a lieutenant.

Ninety-one came on and said, "Have a signal 19 involving a police officer at 400 block East 10th. The suspect last seen running west on Jefferson, no description at this time."

The dispatcher came in and said, "The suspect just passed 401 East Jefferson."

Dispatcher then says, "Give us the correct location on it, 85, we have three different locations."

Eighty-five says, "I haven't seen anything on Jefferson yet, 10-4, check, 491 East 10th at Denver."

Dispatcher repeated, "The subject has just passed 401 East Jefferson."

At 1:22 we have a broadcast here that says, "We have a description on the suspect here on Jefferson, last seen on the 300 block on East Jefferson, a white male, 30, about 5 feet 8, black hair, slender, wearing a white jacket, white shirt and dark slacks, armed with what he states unknown. Repeat the description."

Dispatcher said that to the squad. He says. "Wearing a white jacket believed to be a white shirt and dark slacks. What is his direction of travel on Jefferson?"

He said, "Travel west on Jefferson, last seen in the 401 West Jefferson, correction, it will be East Jefferson."

The dispatcher then said, "Pick up for investigation of aggravated assault on a police officer, a white male approximately 30, 5 feet 8, slender build, has black hair, white jacket, white shirt, dark trousers. Suspect has been seen running west on Jefferson from the 400 block of East Jefferson at 1:24."

Then they asked about the condition of the officer, and there was something about--the dispatcher did receive some information that there was a man pulled in there on West Davis driving a white Pontiac, a 1961 or 1962 station wagon with a prefix PE, saying he had a rifle laying in the street.

We have a citizen following in a car address unknown direction.

The dispatcher said, "Any unit near Gaston 3600 block, this is about a blood bank."

Then 279 comes in and says, "We believe the suspect on shooting this officer out here got his white jacket, believed he dumped it in this parking lot behind the service station at 400 block West, Jefferson across from Dudley House. He had a white jacket we believe this is it."

"You do not have a suspect, is that correct?"

"No, just the jacket lying on the ground."

There is some more conversation about blood going to Parkland.

"What was the description beside the white jacket?"

"White male, 30, 5-8 black hair, slender build, white shirt, white jacket, black trousers, going west on Jefferson from the 300 block."

Squad says, "This is Sergeant Jerry Hill." Says, "I am at 12th and Beckley now, have a man in the car with me that can identify the suspect if anybody gets one."

Mr. RANKIN. Chief Curry, we were furnished a Commission Document No. 290, dated December 5, 1963, that purported to be a radio log for your department, and it did not have any item in it in regard to instruction to Officer Tippit to go to the Central Oak Cliff area.

Do you know why that would be true?

Mr. CURRY. I don't know why it wasn't in that log except that these logs, after they are recorded, they are pretty difficult to try to take everything off of them, channel 1 and channel 2 is in on them and they spent many hours going over these and copying these.

This would be available and I listened to our recording.

Mr. RANKIN. That is Exhibit 705 you are talking about?

Mr. CURRY. That is right.

Mr. RANKIN. So if there is a discrepancy between the two, are you satisfied that Exhibit 705 is correct?

Mr. CURRY. Is the correct exhibit; yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Commission Document No. 290 does say at the heading that most routine transmissions were left out for reasons of brevity.

Would that be any explanation?

Mr. CURRY. Perhaps it could be, yes. Because these would have been routine broadcasts. The fact the squad was moving into this area because this is more or less normal procedure when we have incidents occurring of any magnitude, the squads immediately begin moving in to cover officers of the district.

Mr. RANKIN. You were going to tell us about how it came to your attention about the moving of Lee Oswald to the jail from your place on Saturday?

Mr. CURRY. To the county jail?

Mr. RANKIN. Yes.

Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir.

I asked Captain Fritz a time or two when he wanted to move Oswald, because this is left up to him. Whoever will be handling the case, I mean I don't enter in the transfer of prisoners. I don't ordinarily even know when they are going to be transferred.

Mr. RANKIN. Why is that?

Mr. CURRY. It is just a routine matter.

Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell us is that involved quite a few times in your operations?

Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir. Usually it is a daily transfer of prisoners, and usually the sheriff's office sends up there and picks them up on routine prisoners.

Mr. RANKIN. Are there a number each day?

Mr. CURRY. I would say perhaps anywhere from maybe none to 15 a day.

Mr. RANKIN. When did you talk to Officer or Captain Fritz about this?

Mr. CURRY. I think I talked to him some on Saturday, because the newspaper people or the news media kept asking me when are going to transfer him?

Mr. RANKIN. That would be November 23?

Mr. CURRY. Yes; and I said this I don't know because that would be left up to the men doing the interrogation. When they felt like they were finished with him and wanted to transfer him or when Sheriff Decker said, "We want the man."

Mr. RANKIN. Did you have anything to do with his transfer then?

Mr. CURRY. Other than to, I called Sheriff Decker on Sunday morning and he said, I told him and I think he had talked to Fritz prior to that time, too, and he told Fritz, he says, "Don't bring him down here until I get some security set up for him."

So, Sunday morning I talked to Sheriff Decker.

Mr. RANKIN. Why didn't you do it at night?

Mr. CURRY. This is not customary to transfer prisoners at night.

Mr. RANKIN. Why?

Mr. CURRY. Well, in talking with Captain Fritz, and here again the prisoner was his, and when some of my captains, I believe it was perhaps Lieutenant Swain, it is in the record somewhere said something about, "Do you think we ought to move him at night?"

And Captain Fritz was not in favor of moving him at night because he said, "If anything does occur you can't see, anybody can immediately get out of sight, and if anything is going to happen we want to know where we can see and see what is happening."

Mr. RANKIN. Were you fearful something might happen?

Mr. CURRY. I didn't know. I thought it could happen because of a feeling of a great number of people. But I certainly didn't think anything to happen in city hall. I thought that if anything did happen to him it would probably be en route from the city jail to the county jail.

Mr. RANKIN. What precautions did you take?

Mr. CURRY. The precautions that were taken, when I came in on Sunday morning, now Captain Fritz, I had talked to him on Saturday night or Saturday evening anyway, and he said, he thought he would be ready to transfer him by 10 o'clock the next morning, that would be Sunday morning.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you tell that to the media?

Mr. CURRY. I told them at some time after that. Several of them asked me when are you going to transfer him, and I said, I don't know.

They said, "Are you going to transfer him tonight," and I said, "No, we are not going to transfer him tonight." I said, "We are tired. We are going home and get some rest."

Something was said about well, we are tired, too. When should we come back, and I think that this is recorded in some of the tape recording, that I told them if you are back here by 10 o'clock in the morning, I don't think that you would miss anything you want to see.

Mr. RANKIN. What did you do then about precautions?

Mr. CURRY. The next morning when I came in, that would be about 8:30, 8:45, I think, parked in the basement of city hall, I started up to the elevator and I noticed they had moved some cameras into a hallway down in the basement and I told Lieutenant Wiggins who is in the jail office, I said, "These things will have to be moved out of here, and I also told Chief Batchelor, and Chief Stevenson, Assistant Chief Batchelor, and Assistant Chief in Charge of Investigations Stevenson who came down in the basement at the time.

Mr. RANKIN. Those were TV cameras?

Mr. CURRY. That was in the lobby or in near the lobby of the jail office. I told them they were--would have to move those out of there. This was also in the parking area, there was a ramp come down from Main Street and goes out on Commerce Street, and then there is a parking area east of this.

I told Lieutenant Wiggins who was there, I said, "Now, move these squad cars," there was a transfer car there and a squad car, "move these cars out of this area and if the news media wants down here put them over behind these railings, back over in the basement here."

Then that is all I did at that time. I saw that they were setting up some security. A little while later Chief Batchelor and Chief Stevenson went downstairs and found Captain Talbert who was the platoon commander, radio platoon commander had some sergeants down there and they were setting up security and were told clean everything out of the basement and not let anybody in here, I think the depositions will show that, not let anybody in except police officers and news media who had proper credentials.

Mr. RANKIN. What about the various entrances, was anything done about that?

Mr. CURRY. Well, the entrances to the basement, yes, and the entrances from the basement of city hall out into the basement proper where the cars come in.

Mr. RANKIN. What was done about that?

Mr. CURRY. Every entrance there were guards put on it with instructions not to let anyone come or go except police officers or news people that had proper credentials.

Mr. RANKIN. What entrances are there to the basement?

Mr. CURRY. This is a Main Street entrance for vehicles, that would be on the north side of the building. There is a Commerce Street exit which would be on the south side of the building, on the west side downstairs there is an entrance from the jail corridor where the public goes to the jail window into the basement of the parking area. Then there are some elevators that come from the municipal building, that come down to the basement level. There are also, there is also an opening that goes from this basement down into a subbasement where the maintenance men have their offices.

(At this point, Senator Cooper left the hearing room.)

Mr. RANKIN. And each one of those was guarded?

Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. Throughout the time?

Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. What other precautions were made?

Mr. CURRY. There were a great number of police reservists and detectives and uniformed officers, I think there was a total, I believe of about 74 men in this area between the jail office and the immediate area where he would be loaded.

Mr. RANKIN. How large an area was that?

Mr. CURRY. Well, where he would be brought out of the jail office to put him in this car, would be, I would say, 16 or 20 feet, and then this building, this ramp runs from one street to the other, and the parking area would cover a block wide and perhaps 150 feet deep.

Mr. RANKIN. Were there cars in the parking area?

Mr. CURRY. Some cars were there. They had been searched out, all of them. All of the vehicles had been searched, and all the, where the airconditioning ducts were, they had all been searched, every place where a person could conceal himself had been searched out.

Mr. RANKIN. Was there a plan for an armored car?

Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir; there was.

Mr. RANKIN. What happened about that?

Mr. CURRY. After they had gotten the armored car down there, in talking with Captain Fritz, and here again this prisoner was his responsibility and I don't want to be in a position of just overriding him, and I was willing to trust his judgment, he had been doing this for, like I say, nearly 40 years, and he said, "Chief, I would prefer not to use that armored car, I don't know who the driver is. It is awkward to handle and if anybody tries to do anything to us, I am afraid we would be surrounded. I would prefer to put him in a police car with some of my men following him, and get in and just take him right down Main Street and slip him into the jail."

So I said, "It will be all right with me if you want to do it that way but let's not say anything about this."

Mr. RANKIN. Now the armored car was not a Dallas police car, was it?

Mr. CURRY. No; it was not.

Mr. RANKIN. It was one you were arranging to get from----

Mr. CURRY. I believe his name was Mr. Sherrell, who was the manager of the Armored Motor Service there in Dallas.

Mr. RANKIN. And they would furnish a driver with it?

Mr. CURRY. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. What else was done, if anything?

Mr. CURRY. We went ahead with our plans and we instructed the officers that would be involved in this transfer they would go east on Commerce Street, north to Elm Street, west on Elm Street to Houston Street, and then back south on Houston to the rear entrance of the county jail.

Mr. RANKIN. How many officers would be involved in the transfer?

Mr. CURRY. In the actual transfer, I would think perhaps 15 or 18 besides the men that were stationed at the intersections downtown.

Mr. RANKIN. How far would it be from your police department to the county jail?

Mr. CURRY. I would say 12-15 blocks.

Mr. RANKIN. Were there any other precautions you haven't described?

Mr. CURRY. No, sir; that is about all I know of, except that Captain Fritz wanted to transfer the prisoner in his car, with some of his detectives. This is not unusual. He has transferred many, many prisoners, especially where there is--it is an unusual case involving more than the ordinary routine crime, so it is not anything unusual to transfer him, for him to transfer prisoners.

But, it was then suggested or arranged that they would put his car in a position behind the armored car that we would bring the prisoner out, put him in his car, and he would have two detectives in the back seat with him, plus one driver and two or three detectives following him immediately and there was supposed to be another car to pick up and go with them or get into a car van with these two.

They would follow the armored motor car and no one would know that he was not in the armored motor car except the reporters downstairs when they saw him come out. They would see he was placed in a car instead of the armored car, and we planned to let the armored car go over the predetermined route, but that Captain Fritz, when he got to Main Street, as you go east on Commerce and turned north to go to Elm Street, that is the second street over, when he got to Main Street they would make a left turn and go right down Main Street to the county jail, and they would turn right on Houston Street and the lead car would pull past the entrance and he would duck in and the gates would be closed and the prisoner would be transferred.

Mr. RANKIN. What happened to these TV cameras that you told them to get out of there?

Mr. CURRY. They moved them back somewhere. I don't know where they moved them but it was away from there.

Mr. RANKIN. Weren't their cameras right there at the time of the shooting?

Mr. CURRY. There were some cameras immediately over, TV cameras, I think over where I had told them to place them earlier that morning. I understood when Chief Batchelor went downstairs and I think Captain Jones of the forgery bureau, immediately prior to the transfer, they found there were some reporters and cameramen in the jail office, and Captain Jones, I believe, asked Chief Batchelor if these should not be removed and he was told yes, they should be removed out into the basement. When they were removed out into the basement instead of them being placed outside of the railing--now this is a decision made by Chief Batchelor, I suppose, because he said put them in the driveway up to the north. Now this is from where Ruby came. So apparently this afforded him an opportunity, from our investigation it was determined that he came down this Main Street ramp.

Mr. RANKIN. How did you determine that?

Mr. CURRY. We interrograted every man that was assigned in the basement. Also every witness who was around there that we could find that knew anything about it.

Mr. RANKIN. Did anyone see him come in on that ramp?

Mr. CURRY. There was a former police officer who told us he saw him go down that ramp, a Negro former police officer.

Mr. RANKIN. Who was that?

Mr. CURRY. I believe his name was Daniels. I think perhaps you have a statement from him, don't you?

Mr. RANKIN. Is he the only one who saw him come in down there?

Mr. CURRY. I believe so.

Mr. RANKIN. Now with these TV cameras down there how would your ruse work about having the armored car go ahead and Oswald climb into Captain Fritz' car? Wouldn't that all be shown on TV?

Mr. CURRY. If it was. We didn't think there would be anybody downtown to be in a position to watching TV that quickly to do anything about it if they wanted to.

Mr. RANKIN. You thought about it though?

Mr. CURRY. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. What happened? Were you down there at the time?

Mr. CURRY. No, sir; I would have been but I received a call from my mayor and as I was fixing to go downstairs and I wish that I had been downstairs because I don't know that I could have done anything but you always have this feeling if you were there maybe you could have done something.

But I was called to the telephone and while I was talking to the mayor, why I heard some noises from downstairs and I was up on the third floor, and I heard some shouting, and someone came in and told me that Oswald had been shot.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you learn how the shooting occurred?

Mr. CURRY. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Will you tell us?

Mr. CURRY. I was told that someone sprang from the crowd and pushed a gun into his stomach and fired a shot.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know who that was?

Mr. CURRY. I was told that the man was named Jack Ruby.

Mr. RANKIN. What else did you learn about it?

Mr. CURRY. Further investigation revealed, and some of my officers who talked to Ruby and talked to his attorney, I believe, were told that he came down that north ramp, and an investigation revealed that one of our officers, who was assigned there. Officer Vaughn, who was assigned to this location just prior to this transfer.

Mr. RANKIN. That is out on the street?

Mr. CURRY. Main Street side.

Mr. RANKIN. At the entrance?

Mr. CURRY. At the entrance to the basement ramp. He had been assigned there and had been told not to let anybody come in except newspaper reporters or news media or police officers.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you find out what he did?

Mr. CURRY. We discovered or found out subsequently that he, just prior to this transfer, that when we found out we were going to transfer him and not use an armored car that Chief Stevenson had told Lieutenant Pierce "to get a couple of sergeants or a sergeant, get somebody and go around and get in front of the armored car and when we tell you to why you lead off and lead this armored car over here and just over the route we have discussed, and take it to the county jail."