Part 27

They chose rather to come in on Lemmon Avenue to Turtle Creek, and here again this is a more scenic route and more people would have an opportunity to see the motorcade. And followed Turtle Creek into Cedar Springs, to Harwood and south on Harwood to Main Street, west on Main to Houston, north on Houston to Elm and west on Elm to Stemmons Expressway.

Mr. RANKIN. Have you described the cars in the motorcade? Their positions?

Mr. CURRY. I have them listed here, I couldn't tell you other than the front part of the motorcade but they are in this report.

Mr. RANKIN. Yes. Tell us the front part that you recall.

Mr. CURRY. I had Deputy Chief Lumpkin, and he had two Secret Service men with him, I believe, out of Washington, and a Colonel Wiedemeyer who is the East Texas Section Commander of the Army Reserve in the area, he was with him. They were out about, they were supposed to stay about a quarter of a mile ahead of us and I was in the lead car.

Mr. RANKIN. Who was with you?

Mr. CURRY. Inspector, not inspector, but Sheriff Bill Decker, Sorrels of the Secret Service, and Mr. Lawson, I believe he was out of the Washington office of the Secret Service. And immediately behind us then was the President's car.

Mr. RANKIN. You were driving your car?

Mr. CURRY. I was driving my car.

Mr. RANKIN. You had radio communication in that?

Mr. CURRY. Yes; I had radio communication with my motorcycle officers, with my downtown office, and Secret Service had a portable radio that they had radio contact with their people.

Mr. RANKIN. Yes. Now, what was in the next car.

Mr. CURRY. The President's party was in that car. Then following him was the Secret Service vehicle and then I understand was the Vice President's car, and then behind him was a Secret Service car. And then they had cars lined up as listed in this report here, how they were lined up after that.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, after you turned the corner off of Main going onto Houston, will you describe what happened as you recall it?

Mr. CURRY. Nothing unusual occurred. We were, I would say traveling perhaps 10 miles an hour, would be the ordinary speed to make a turn, and probably was making that speed after we made a turn from north, going north on Houston to west on Elm Street, and----

Mr. RANKIN. Did you slow down for the turn onto Elm?

Mr. CURRY. Perhaps just a little. I would say we were probably going 8 to 10 miles an hour. And as we were moving downward the triple underpass which is about an ordinary block we were beginning to pick up a little speed.

Mr. RANKIN. How much of a descent is there between where the Depository Building is and the place in the underpass?

Mr. CURRY. It is a pretty good little drop. Within the space of a block it drops down enough to go under an underpass.

Mr. RANKIN. It would be more than the height of a car?

Mr. CURRY. Yes; two heights.

Mr. RANKIN. Two heights.

Mr. CURRY. I think it is a 13- or 14-foot clearance.

Mr. RANKIN. Trucks could get under that?

Mr. CURRY. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Then what happened?

Mr. CURRY. Then we heard this report.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, how far along from the corner of Elm and Houston were you at the time of that?

Mr. CURRY. I think we were perhaps a couple of hundred feet or so.

Mr. RANKIN. How fast were you going then?

Mr. CURRY. I think we were going between 10 or 12 miles an hour, maybe up to 15 miles an hour.

Mr. RANKIN. Then what happened?

Mr. CURRY. We heard this report, and then all of the tension that followed I have told you.

Mr. RANKIN. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. What was the distance between your car and the President's car approximately?

Mr. CURRY. Mr. Dulles, I believe to the best of my knowledge it would have been 100, 125 feet.

Mr. DULLES. Between your car and the President's car?

Mr. CURRY. Yes, we stayed pretty close to them. In the planning of this motorcade, we had had more motorcycles lined up to be with the President's car, but the Secret Service didn't want that many.

Mr. RANKIN. Did they tell you why?

Mr. CURRY. We actually had two on each side but we wanted four on each side and they asked us to drop out some of them and back down the motorcade, along the motorcade, which we did.

Mr. RANKIN. How many motorcycles did you have?

Mr. CURRY. I think we had four on each side of him.

Mr. RANKIN. How many did you want to have?

Mr. CURRY. We actually had two on each side side but we wanted four on each side and they asked us to drop out some of them and back down the motorcade, along the motorcade, which we did.

Mr. RANKIN. So that you in fact only had two on each side of his car?

Mr. CURRY. Two on each side and they asked them to remain at the rear fender so if the crowd moved in on him they could move in to protect him from the crowd.

Mr. RANKIN. Who asked him to stay at the rear fender?

Mr. CURRY. I believe Mr. Lawson.

Mr. RANKIN. The Secret Service man?

Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir. Also we had planned to have Captain Fritz and some of his homicide detectives immediately following the President's car which we have in the past, we have always done this.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, would that be between the President's car and the Secret Service?

Mr. CURRY. And the Secret Service. We have in past done this. We have been immediately behind the President's car.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you propose that to someone?

Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. Who did you propose it to?

Mr. CURRY. To Mr. Lawson and Mr. Sellers.

Mr. RANKIN. What did they say about that?

Mr. CURRY. They didn't want it.

Mr. RANKIN. Did they tell you why?

Mr. CURRY. They said the Secret Service would be there.

Mr. RANKIN. And then?

Mr. CURRY. They said we can put this vehicle in between Captain Fritz and his detectives immediately at the end of the motorcade. They said, "No, we want a white or marked car there bringing up the rear," so Fritz and his men were not in the motorcade.

Mr. DULLES. What do you mean in the past when there have been previous Presidents visiting Dallas or other dignitaries?

Mr. CURRY. Yes; that is right; other dignitaries. Yes; our thinking along this was that in the past there have been this. Captain Fritz, he is a very experienced homicide man so are his detectives. They know the city very well. They have been there very, Captain Fritz to my knowledge, over 40 years.

It is customary that they in trying to protect a person if they are in the immediate vicinity, and Captain Fritz told me later, he said, "I believe that had we been there we might possibly have got that man before he got out of that building or we would have maybe had the opportunity of firing at him while he was still firing" because they were equipped, would have been equipped with high-powered rifles and machineguns, submachine guns.

Representative FORD. Where were they instead of being at the motorcade.

Mr. CURRY. Actually they were not in the motorcade at all. They followed up the motorcade.

Representative FORD. Were they in a car following up the motorcade?

Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir; they were in a car.

Representative FORD. How far away would they have been?

Mr. CURRY. I think they would have been at the rear, I believe.

Representative FORD. Captain Fritz is going to be here later.

Mr. RANKIN. Yes.

Representative FORD. And fill in what he did at that time?

Mr. RANKIN. Yes.

Mr. CURRY. But we tried to do what the Secret Service asked us to do, and we didn't try to override them because we didn't feel it was our responsibility, that it was their responsibility to tell us what they wanted and we would try to provide it.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you refuse to do anything that they asked you to do?

Mr. CURRY. No, sir; not to my knowledge we don't--we didn't refuse them to do anything.

Mr. DULLES. You considered them to be the boss in this particular situation?

Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir; the Secret Service; yes, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know or can you tell us approximately where the President's car was at the time of the first shot that you heard?

Mr. CURRY. To the best of my knowledge, I would say it was approximately halfway between Houston Street and the underpass, which would be, I would say probably 125-150 feet west of Houston Street.

Mr. RANKIN. Can you give us the approximate location of where it was when you heard the second shot?

Mr. CURRY. Well, it would have been just a few feet further because these shots were in fairly rapid succession.

Mr. RANKIN. How many feet do you mean?

Mr. CURRY. I would say perhaps, and this is just an estimate on my part, perhaps 25 or 30 feet further along.

Mr. RANKIN. Then at the time of the third shot?

Mr. CURRY. A few feet further, perhaps 15-20 feet further.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you have an opinion as to the time that expired between the first shot and the third shot?

Mr. CURRY. This is just an opinion on my part but I would think perhaps 5 or 6 seconds.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you hear any more than three shots?

Mr. CURRY. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. RANKIN. Are you sure of that?

Mr. CURRY. I am positive of that. I heard three shots. I will never forget it.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you have something, Mr. McCloy?

Mr. McCLOY. I was going to ask you, chief, as you were approaching the underpass you were looking toward the underpass presumably?

Mr. CURRY. That is right.

Mr. McCLOY. Was the underpass bare of people or were there people on it?

Mr. CURRY. No; I could see some people on each side but not immediately over, but there were some people up in the railroad yard. I also could see an officer up there. I don't know who the officer was.

Mr. McCLOY. You could recognize an officer on the top of the underpass?

Mr. CURRY. Yes; their instructions had been to place officers on every overpass and in every underpass.

Mr. McCLOY. How close were you then to the underpass when you first heard that shot?

Mr. CURRY. Oh, perhaps 150 feet or 100 feet or so.

Mr. McCLOY. So you are convinced that the shot could not come from the overpass?

Mr. CURRY. I don't believe it did; no, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. Then----

Mr. CURRY. Because there didn't seem to be any commotion going on over there. This seemed to be people that I could see, they didn't seem to run or anything. They just seemed to be there.

Mr. McCLOY. You spoke of the railroad yard. Just where is that railroad yard in relation to the underpass? We will see that.

Mr. CURRY. It is over----

Mr. McCLOY. It is on the other side.

Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir. You see these tracks.

Mr. RANKIN. Mark that as Exhibit 703 and you can refer to.

Mr. CURRY. Yes; here is the School Book Depository. The railroad goes over.

Mr. DULLES. This aerial view of the Elm Street there, isn't it of the underpass, will be admitted as 704.

(Commission Exhibit No. 704 was marked for identification, and received in evidence.)

Mr. McCLOY. Do you call that the railroad yards?

Mr. CURRY. Yes; that is true.

Mr. McCLOY. Above the underpass?

Mr. CURRY. Yes.

Mr. McCLOY. Did you see a number of people in the railroad yard?

Mr. CURRY. I would estimate maybe a half dozen.

Mr. DULLES. They were spectators or were they workmen. They were spectators?

Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir; as well as I was able to tell. They might have been workmen, too, but I presume it was people who were in the area and as the motorcade approached they got into position where they perhaps could have seen it.

Mr. McCLOY. Did you recognize any officer amongst them?

Mr. CURRY. I seemed to recall seeing a uniformed police officer up there.

Mr. McCLOY. In the railroad yard, and there was no commotion amongst the railroad yard people?

Mr. CURRY. I don't believe so.

Representative FORD. Do you know who the officer was?

Mr. CURRY. No, sir; but I believe by looking at the assignments we could determine what officer was up there.

There is an assignment of personnel which has been submitted for the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mrs. RANKIN. On the record, we will supply for the purposes of this record the name of the officer and check it with Chief Curry, who was on the underpass or really the over part of the pass.

Mr. CURRY. Really over.

Mr. RANKIN. At the time of the motorcade.

Representative FORD. Who determined there should be one, not more officers at an overpass?

Mr. CURRY. Deputy Chief Lunday and Assistant Chief Batchelor went over this route with Sorrels, and I believe Lawson was with them. And they were the ones who determined how many men would be placed at each location.

Mr. RANKIN. The inquiry I think particularly is did the Secret Service decide it would be one or did you decide it would be one?

Mr. CURRY. No; it would be the Secret Service because we just let them tell us how many men they wanted. The only deviation we made from that was in the security of the Trade Mart. I believe they requested 143 men, as I recall to secure the Trade Mart, and I believe we supplied them with 193 or 194 men, somewhat in excess of what they asked for at this location.

I called the State police, and they furnished a number of men, about 30 men, and Sheriff Decker furnished about 15, and I think we furnished from our department everybody that they asked for really, so we had a surplus.

Representative FORD. But the details as to how many men should be placed where were determined by Lawson and Sorrels of the Secret Service?

Mr. CURRY. That is right, sir; yes, sir.

(At this point Senator Cooper entered the hearing room.)

Mr. McCLOY. May I ask one question?

As you were leading this or just ahead of the President's car, as you came around past the School Depository Building, was there anything that attracted your attention to the building at all as you went by?

Mr. CURRY. Not at all.

Mr. McCLOY. There was no movement or anything?

Mr. CURRY. Not at all.

Mr. McCLOY. You weren't conscious of looking up at the windows?

Mr. CURRY. Not at all.

Mr. McCLOY. You had Secret Service men in that car with you?

Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. Were they inspecting the windows as they went by?

Mr. CURRY. It seemed that Sorrels, he was looking around a whole lot and so was Lawson. I know comments were being made along the route as to first one thing and then another.

Mr. DULLES. If you had had the other Car with police officers in it to which you referred and which I gathered you recommended what would have been the function and duties of the officers in that particular car?

Mr. CURRY. It would have been, of course, to guard the President, but in the event that anything happened they would have immediately dropped out of their car with rifles and submachine guns. That was what we had planned.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, as a part of the plans for the motorcade, was there anything said about the inspection of buildings along the route?

Mr. CURRY. The comment was made that in a city like this how in the world could you inspect or put somebody in every window of every building.

Mr. RANKIN. Who said that?

Mr. CURRY. This was in a discussion with the Secret Service. I don't recall exactly who said this.

Mr. RANKIN. Was it the Secret Service people or your people?

Mr. CURRY. I don't know whether it was us or Secret Service. But this was discussed. I think it was Secret Service who told us how they always dreaded having to go through a downtown area where there were these skyscraper buildings.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know of any effort that was made to search any of the buildings?

Mr. CURRY. Not to my knowledge. We did put some extra men from the special service bureau in the downtown area to work in midblocks to watch the crowd and they were not specifically told to watch buildings but they were told to watch everything.

Mr. RANKIN. Where were they located?

Mr. CURRY. On the route down Main Street. We didn't have any between Elm Street and the railroad yard.

Mr. RANKIN. But you say in midblock?

Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir; especially midblock along the route through the downtown area.

Mr. RANKIN. Where would the downtown area be?

Mr. CURRY. It would be from Harwood Street down to Houston Street.

Mr. RANKIN. Chief Curry, do you know whether Officers Foster and White were on the underpass?

Mr. CURRY. I would have to look at the assignment sheet to determine that, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. May I ask at this point, unless I may be interfering with your examination, but was it usual for the representatives of the news media to attend showups in the police headquarters apart from this incident?

Mr. CURRY. It was not unusual. This was not setting a precedent.

Mr. McCLOY. It was not unusual.

Representative FORD. In such a showup where they are present, are they shielded from the person brought in for identification?

Mr. CURRY. Are they shielded from----

Representative FORD. From the person who is brought up for identification?

Mr. CURRY. Ordinarily the person who is brought up for identification would be behind the screen, behind this silk screen. This is for the purpose of protecting the person who is going to try to identify him more than trying to protect the person who is being shown up because witnesses ofttimes have a fear of facing someone that they are asked to identify.

For this reason this screen was provided where the prisoner could not see out, but the people can see in. It is much like a one-way glass.

Representative FORD. That was used in this case?

Mr. CURRY. No; this was not used. We just brought him in front of it.

Representative FORD. Any particular reason why he was put in front of it?

Mr. CURRY. They asked us if we wouldn't bring him out there, they didn't think their cameras would show through the screen. And as I repeated, when this was brought up, I asked Mr. Wade, the district attorney, if he saw anything wrong with this and he said "No; I don't see anything wrong with this," so we agreed to do this.

Representative FORD. Who was in charge of the actual showup operation?

Mr. CURRY. The jail personnel would have brought him down from downstairs and brought him into the room and then removed him.

Representative FORD. Who handled the actual process of identification or attempted identification by various witnesses?

Mr. CURRY. Usually Captain Fritz or some of his homicide detectives are present. I know when they were having a showup for a little lady, I don't know her name but she was a waitress who observed the shooting of the officer, I just--I wasn't there during the entire showup but I was present part of the showup and Captain Fritz was asking her to observe these people and see if she could pick out the man she saw who shot the officer and she didn't identify Oswald at that time.

Representative FORD. Did you say the actual process that was--that took place in these several showups was similar to or different from the showups in other cases?

Mr. CURRY. The only one where we didn't have any particular witnesses to show him up to, but the number of the news media had asked if they couldn't see him and it was almost impossible for all of them to see him up in this hallway and we decided that the best thing to do, if we were going to let them see him at all would be to take them and get them into a room, and then there was utter confusion after we did that because they tried to overrun him after we got him there and we immediately removed him and took him back upstairs.

Representative FORD. You mentioned earlier there had been some allegations to the effect that Oswald had been badly treated.

Mr. CURRY. There was--I didn't hear this myself but someone told me, I don't recall who it was, that some of the news media, I understood this was broadcast over the radio and TV.

Representative FORD. Did you investigate that rumor?

Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. What did you find out?

Mr. CURRY. I found he had not been mistreated.

Representative FORD. You checked with all the police personnel who had anything to do with it?

Mr. CURRY. Everyone I knew about and the only marks on him was, that I could see there was a slight mark on his face up here, and this was received when he was fighting the officers in that theatre, and they had to subdue him and in the scuffle, this episode in the theatre, he apparently received a couple of marks on his face.

But he didn't complain to me about it. I think he--one of the times he was coming down the hall someone asked him what was the matter with his eye and he said, "A cop hit me," I believe, or "A policeman hit me."

Representative FORD. Did you ask Oswald whether he had been mistreated?

Mr. CURRY. I don't believe I did, sir.

Representative FORD. But you talked to Oswald on one or more occasions?

Mr. CURRY. I don't know that I ever asked him any questions at all. I was present during the interrogation, but he was very sullen and arrogant and he didn't have much to say to anybody. Fritz, I think did more talking to him than anybody else.

Representative FORD. But not in your presence did he object to any treatment he received from the Dallas police force?

Mr. CURRY. No, sir; I would like to say for the record that we are very strict on our officers in the treatment of prisoners, and we have a personnel section setup that any person who complains that they have been mistreated by the police officer, a thorough investigation is made, and if it is determined that he has been mistreated in any way, disciplinary action is taken, and on occasion we have, not frequently, but on occasion where we have found that this has been true we have dismissed personnel for mistreating a prisoner, so our personnel know positively this is not tolerated regardless of who it is.

Mr. RANKIN. Chief, you have described a showup, and you have also described the general practice. You have also described showups in regard to Oswald and you said there were several of them.

Mr. CURRY. When I said several, to the best of my knowledge there were perhaps three altogether.

Mr. RANKIN. Yes, one you were describing when the screen was not used was not for the purpose of identification, is that right?

Mr. CURRY. No, sir; unless some of the news media had come forward and said, "We saw that man"; you see a lot of that news media, that was present, were with the Presidential party and there is a possibility that some of them might have said we saw this man to leave the scene.

Mr. RANKIN. So the principal reason was to allow the news media?

Mr. CURRY. The principal reason was at their request that they be allowed to see the prisoner.

Mr. RANKIN. And he wasn't placed back of the screen at that time?

Mr. CURRY. No, sir; he was not.

Mr. RANKIN. And whatever identification there would be would be under the hope that they might have seen him?

Mr. CURRY. They might have seen him because a great number of the news media were at the scene of the shooting or in the immediate area.

Mr. RANKIN. And that is the particular showup when you learned later Jack Ruby was supposed to have been present?

Mr. CURRY. I was told that he was present. That someone had seen him back in this room. He easily could have been there as far as I was concerned because I wouldn't have known him from anyone else.

Mr. RANKIN. At the other showups, were witnesses there to try to identify Oswald?

Mr. CURRY. Yes, there were.

Mr. RANKIN. How were those handled, do you know?

Mr. CURRY. Exactly the same manner except that he was brought in behind the screen, and was handcuffed to some police officers or other prisoners.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know who was there to try to identify him?

Mr. CURRY. Only on one occasion. This was a little lady that was a waitress.

Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Markham?

Mr. CURRY. I believe her name was Mrs. Markham.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you believe whether she was able to identify him?

Mr. CURRY. Yes, I heard her tell Captain Fritz that was the man she saw shoot the officer.

Mr. RANKIN. And that was Officer Tippit?

Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. What kind of a reputation did Officer Tippit have with the police force?