Part 25

Mr. CURRY. I don't recall his exact words.

Mr. RANKIN. Just tell us in substance.

Mr. CURRY. He didn't--as I recall, he didn't think much of it. He just said, "I don't know what you are talking about."

Mr. RANKIN. What did the justice of the peace say about the procedure and any rights and so forth?

Mr. CURRY. As I recall it, he read to him the fact that he was being charged with the assassination of the President of the United States, John Kennedy on such and such day at such and such time.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he say anything about his right to plead?

Mr. CURRY. I don't recall, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he say anything about counsel?

Mr. CURRY. I don't recall whether he did or not.

Mr. RANKIN. What else happened at that time that you recall?

Mr. CURRY. That is about all. After it was read to him, he was taken back to his cell.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you go back with him to the cell?

Mr. CURRY. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. RANKIN. Who took him back to the cell?

Mr. CURRY. The jailer and assistant jailer or jail guard.

Mr. RANKIN. What came to your attention after that about Lee Harvey Oswald, that you can recall, what was the next thing that happened that you know of?

Mr. CURRY. The next thing that I know of, was the next morning.

Mr. RANKIN. What happened then?

Mr. CURRY. The interrogation of Lee Harvey continued on and off through the day. No; I had asked the captain during the afternoon if he was being given rest periods and if he was being fed properly so that he wouldn't have reason to complain that we were mistreating him in any way.

Mr. RANKIN. What captain did you ask that?

Mr. CURRY. Fritz.

Mr. RANKIN. What did he say?

Mr. CURRY. He said he was. He said he was not interrogating him on long drawn-out extended periods, he was letting him rest and he was being fed.

Mr. DULLES. Did the interrogation continue into the night or did it stop, do you know?

Mr. CURRY. I don't know what--well, it did continue into that first night, I know. But I don't know what time they discontinued the interrogation.

Mr. RANKIN. They stopped?

Mr. CURRY. I was not in the offices all the time. I was there two or three times.

Mr. RANKIN. Captain Fritz tell you anything about the interrogation, how it was going, what was said?

Mr. CURRY. He told me about, oh, late in the afternoon or early in the evening that he felt that he had enough evidence to file on him for the murder of the officer, and he told me, he said, "I strongly suspect that he was the assassin of the President."

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know what time of day it was?

Mr. CURRY. It seemed to me like it was 6 or 7 o'clock on the day of the 22d.

Mr. RANKIN. Can you describe the situation in the police headquarters with regard to the media. Were they continuing to be there?

Mr. CURRY. They remained there. You could hardly get down the hall, and it was necessary, when we would take the prisoner back to the jail to bring him out of the office, and down this hallway and put him on a special elevator just for prisoners.

Mr. RANKIN. What office do you mean when you say that?

Mr. CURRY. From the homicide office.

Mr. RANKIN. Yes. You took him down what hallway?

Mr. CURRY. The third floor hallway. The offices run like this in the building. The homicide office is right along here, perhaps 25 feet. The elevator is right here, this is a special elevator that runs to the jail.

Mr. RANKIN. Will you mark that homicide office with an "H" on to indicate it?

Mr. CURRY. This extends up here a little more perhaps.

Mr. RANKIN. Will you mark the elevator with "EL."

The CHAIRMAN. There is a lot of other writing on this paper a lot of doodling that someone else has done and I think the chief had better have a new piece of paper.

Gentlemen, before you get into a discussion of this diagram with the chief, Mr. Rankin, I must leave now for a session of the Court, and Mr. Dulles, will you preside in my absence?

Mr. DULLES. Yes, Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. I will be back immediately at the conclusion of our session today.

(At this point, the Chief Justice left the hearing room.)

Mr. RANKIN. Chief, have you marked on a yellow sheet of paper a diagram of the third floor of the police headquarters?

Mr. CURRY. Yes; I have, principally the north end of it.

Mr. RANKIN. We will call that Exhibit 701. Will you describe briefly for the Commission just what you have marked on there now?

Mr. CURRY. I have a rough layout of the north end of the third floor of the police and courts building in Dallas, Tex.

Now, this shows the public elevators, the lobby way in front of the elevators, and then a hall that extends the length of the third floor from north to south.

In the extreme north end there is a small press room where ordinarily the news media stay from early morning until late at night to cover police events.

I have also marked off the other bureaus that are located on this floor, the burglary and theft bureau would be on the west side, and in the northwest corner is the juvenile bureau.

The northeast corner is the auto theft bureau, the next going south would be the forgery bureau, and then would be the homicide office or homicide bureau, which is adjacent to a hallway, the north-south hallway, and also the rear office is adjacent to the hall going over to the municipal building which is immediately east of the police and courts building.

The entrance to the homicide office is approximately 20 or 25 feet to the entrance to this jail elevator, and it is necessary to bring a prisoner down this hall in order to get him into this jail elevator. Each time we--that I observed them move Oswald, they were almost overrun by news media.

Mr. RANKIN. By overrun, what do you mean?

Could you describe with a little more definiteness, are you talking about 4 or 5 or 10?

Mr. CURRY. I will say probably a hundred, at least a hundred that were jammed into this hallway.

(At this point, Mr. McCloy entered the hearing room.)

Mr. RANKIN. Were some of them--I will withdraw that question.

Were some of these people from the news media from the press and others from the radio and others from the television?

Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir; that is true, sir.

(At this point, Representative Ford entered the hearing room.)

Mr. RANKIN. Chief Curry, you said that Mr. Nichols came that afternoon. I call to your attention that we have information that he came there on the Saturday afternoon.

Mr. CURRY. Perhaps it was, not the Friday. That perhaps was on Saturday.

Mr. RANKIN. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. I wonder if you could just summarize briefly where we are.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. RANKIN. Back on the record.

In regard to Mr. Nichols, did you know whether or not he offered to represent or provide counsel?

Mr. CURRY. Yes; he did.

Mr. RANKIN. What did he say about that?

Mr. CURRY. He said he didn't care to at this time.

Mr. RANKIN. What did Mr. Nichols say about providing counsel?

Mr. CURRY. He said the Dallas Bar would provide counsel if he desired counsel.

Mr. RANKIN. That is to Mr. Oswald?

Mr. CURRY. Oswald.

Mr. RANKIN. What did Mr. Oswald say?

Mr. CURRY. He said, "I don't at this time," he said, "If I can't get Mr. Abt to represent me or someone from Civil Liberties Union I will call on you later."

Representative FORD. Did Nichols and Oswald talk one to another?

Mr. CURRY. Yes; he was taken to see Oswald and he talked to him.

Mr. RANKIN. And this all occurred at the meeting you have already described?

Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. Between Mr. Nichols and Mr. Oswald?

Mr. CURRY. That is correct.

Mr. RANKIN. When you had so many people of the news media in all of your corridors and throughout your police headquarters, did you discuss that with the mayor or any of the other authorities?

Mr. CURRY. I don't recall that I specifically discussed this condition.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you ask for any instructions or advice?

Mr. CURRY. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you do anything about it that you have not already described?

Mr. CURRY. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. DULLES. Did it worry you?

Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir; it did. I was concerned about it.

Mr. McCLOY. Did you have a definite system of checking credentials of these people as they came in?

Mr. CURRY. On a particular incident that had occurred previous to this, such as the school integration, we had a plane to fall there one time and we have a regular set up for disaster, whereby the press identify themselves in order to get into a certain area, and their credentials were being checked.

Now, I have heard it said, not to my knowledge can I tell you this, that Jack Ruby at one time or sometime during these preceding days, had been seen there and apparently had some press credentials but I was never able to establish that.

Mr. RANKIN. You have checked into it?

Mr. CURRY. I have inquired into it or had it inquired into.

Mr. RANKIN. What did you find out in that regard?

Mr. CURRY. I couldn't find out where he had received press credentials from anybody.

Representative FORD. Were any press credentials found in his effects?

Mr. CURRY. No; not to my knowledge.

Mr. RANKIN. When you were having the difficulty with the media that you have described, did you do anything about adding additional guards or anything about additional security?

Mr. CURRY. No; we had two men, two uniformed officers right at the homicide door to keep anyone from going in there.

As I recall, there was a sergeant, and a couple of reserve officers at the public elevators here, and there were a couple of reservists at this end of the hall to keep them from overrunning into the administrative offices.

Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 701, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. DULLES. Is that the chart?

Mr. RANKIN. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. It will be admitted. This is a chart of the third floor.

Mr. CURRY. Of the police and courts building.

Mr. DULLES. What is the other word?

Mr. CURRY. Police and courts building.

Mr. DULLES. It will be accepted.

(The chart referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 701 for identification and received in evidence.)

Mr. RANKIN. Have you done anything to change your procedures in regard to security or how you would handle prisoners in light of this difficulty you had with the media?

Mr. CURRY. The city manager and I have discussed the possibility that we are going to in the near future build a new police building.

Mr. RANKIN. Who is the city manager?

Mr. CURRY. Elgin Crull. He made this statement that when and if we build another building, it will be so designed that the prisoners will not have to be brought through where the general public are permitted or where the press would be permitted. That there will be two sets of halls or hallways where they will be brought down in the rear hallways and admitted into the offices for interrogation.

Mr. RANKIN. What did you say about that?

Mr. CURRY. I heartily agreed with him.

Mr. RANKIN. Have you made any other plans for change of security?

Mr. CURRY. I have talked to my staff and said if we were ever faced with a thing of such magnitude again that we would not permit the press to come into the building. We would designate a place outside for them and we would just have to take the heat that was given to us by the press for not permitting them in there, but in view of what had happened that we would never permit this to occur again.

That we would permit them to have representatives but they would be required to choose their representatives to be present, say, in these hallways or inside the buildings, and the rest of them would be excluded.

And regardless of how they treated us in the press for this decision, that is the way it would be in the future.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you do anything about appearing on television during this time?

Mr. CURRY. They had these cameras set up in the hallway, if I can have the exhibit I will show it to you.

Mr. RANKIN. Yes. That is Exhibit 701.

Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir. They had cameras set up right here, two or three cameras.

Mr. RANKIN. Have you marked that with the word "cameras"?

Mr. CURRY. Yes. And on an occasion or two as I was walking from the homicide office back to my office they would stop me here and try to interrogate me or interview me and they would have the cameras turned on me.

Mr. RANKIN. What would you do?

Mr. CURRY. They would besiege me with questions about how the investigation was proceeding, and I would on occasion or two I told them I thought it was proceeding very well, that we were obtaining good evidence to substantiate our suspicions, that this was the man that was guilty of the assassination.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you tell them what evidence you had?

Mr. CURRY. I told them on one occasion we had a rifle that had been partially identified by his, as belonging to him.

Mr. RANKIN. When did you do that?

Mr. CURRY. I believe that was on Saturday, I think.

Mr. RANKIN. About what time of the day?

Mr. CURRY. I don't recall exactly. I think it was in the afternoon. It might have been Friday night.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you tell them about any other evidence that you had?

Mr. CURRY. I don't recall, sir, whether I did or not. There was so much confusion that I can't recall exactly the times and exactly what was said. I think this is documented, perhaps.

Mr. RANKIN. Where?

Mr. CURRY. On the TV film.

Mr. RANKIN. I see. Did you give out any interviews to the newspapers?

Mr. CURRY. I don't recall giving any interviews to newspapers.

Mr. RANKIN. Any news releases?

Mr. CURRY. Not that I recall.

Mr. DULLES. Do you recall having told them that you had sent a radio order out to surround the book depository?

Mr. CURRY. I didn't do that, sir. That was one of my inspectors, I believe that gave that order. I was riding in the Presidential parade and approximately a hundred feet, I guess, ahead of the President's car, and when we heard this first report, I couldn't tell exactly where it was coming from.

Representative FORD. What report are you talking about now?

Mr. CURRY. A sharp report as a firecracker or as it was it was the report of this rifle.

We were just approaching an underpass, and there were some people around on each side of the underpass, up in the railroad yards, and I thought at first that perhaps this was a railroad torpedo, it was a sharp crack.

Inspector--no, it wasn't Inspector, it was Lawson of the Secret Service and Mr. Sorrels of the Dallas office of the Secret Service, and Sheriff Bill Decker and myself were in this car.

Mr. DULLES. I may be anticipating.

Mr. RANKIN. That is all right, go right ahead.

Mr. CURRY. I said what was that, was that a firecracker, or someone said this. I don't recall whether it was me or someone else, and from the report I couldn't tell whether it was coming from the railroad yard or whether it was coming from behind but I said over the radio, I said, "Get someone up in the railroad yard and check."

And then about this time. I believe it was motorcycle Officer Chaney rode up beside of me and looking back in the rear view mirror I could see some commotion in the President's car and after this there had been two more reports, but these other two reports I could tell were coming behind instead of from the railroad yards.

Mr. RANKIN. What do you mean by reports?

Mr. CURRY. Sharp reports as a rifle or a firecracker, and looking in the rear view mirror then I could see some commotion in President Kennedy's car.

Mr. RANKIN. You could distinctly hear and tell that the two later reports were from behind?

Mr. CURRY. Behind.

Mr. RANKIN. Rather than front?

Mr. CURRY. That is right.

Mr. RANKIN. You weren't sure whether the first one was from behind or in front?

Mr. CURRY. I couldn't tell because perhaps of the echo or the----

Representative FORD. Where were you sitting in the car, sir?

Mr. CURRY. I was driving.

Representative FORD. You were driving?

Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. When you heard the first report, did you grab a communications set and give this order?

Mr. CURRY. Almost immediately.

Representative FORD. What was the order that you gave?

Mr. CURRY. As I recall it, "Get someone up in the railroad yard to check those people." There was already an officer up there.

Mr. RANKIN. How do you know that?

Mr. CURRY. They assigned officers to every overpass.

We went with the Secret Service, Batchelor and Chief Lunday had went over this route with Secret Service agents Lawson and Sorrels and they had run the route 2 or 3 days prior to this and pointed out every place where they wanted security officers, and we placed them there where they asked for them.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you see an officer there when you looked up?

Mr. CURRY. I couldn't recognize him, but I could see an officer whoever it was.

Representative FORD. Did you get this order over the PA system before the second and third shots?

Mr. CURRY. I don't believe so, I am not sure. I am not positive. Because they were in pretty rapid succession. But after I noticed some commotion in the President's car and a motorcycle officer ran up aside of me and I asked him what had happened and he said shots had been fired, and I said, "Has the President been hit or has the President's party been hit?

And he said, "I am sure they have."

I said, "Take us to the hospital immediately," and I got on the radio and I told them to notify Parkland Hospital to stand by for an emergency, and this is approximately, I would say, perhaps a couple of miles or so to Parkland Hospital from this, and we went to Parkland and I notified them to have them to be standing by for an emergency, and we went out there under siren escort and went into the emergency entrance.

As I recall, I got out of the car and rushed to the emergency entrance and told them to bring the stretchers out, and they loaded the President, President Kennedy and Governor Connally onto stretchers and took them into the hospital.

Mrs. Kennedy, I went into the hospital, and I know she was outside the door of where they were working with the President, and someone suggested to her that she sit down and she was very calm, and she said, "I am all right. Some of your people need to sit down more than I do."

But everyone was very concerned. I remained around the hospital. I was contacted by some of the special sergeants who asked me to stand by in my car and get another car and take the President, then Vice President Johnson to Love Field.

Mr. RANKIN. You have told us about that, haven't you?

Mr. CURRY. Yes; I have told you about that.

Mr. RANKIN. And you told us you attended the swearing in of President Johnson?

Mr. CURRY. Yes; I did.

Mr. RANKIN. And that you waited until the plane left and then you came back?

Mr. CURRY. To my offices.

Mr. RANKIN. And Judge Hughes left at the same time?

Mr. CURRY. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, did you do anything about the assassination after this or at some time?

Mr. CURRY. No. I left this to be handled by Captain Fritz who is in charge of all homicide investigations.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether anything was done, did you make inquiry?

Mr. CURRY. Yes; he told me they were interrogating him, Oswald about the assassination and trying to check on the movements of Oswald, and they obtained, I understand, some search warrants to go out and search, they found out where he had been staying.

Mr. RANKIN. What about the building immediately after the occasion?

Mr. CURRY. It was sealed off, Inspector Sawyer who is a uniformed police inspector, I think was the first ranking officer to the School Depository Building. He would have had to come perhaps 10 blocks. I believe he told me that he was about at Akard and Maine when this came on the air that we had had some trouble down there.

Mr. RANKIN. You say you imagine. Is this something that they reported to you?

Mr. CURRY. Yes. He told me later that he did immediately go to the scene of the Texas--of where the shots were fired from.

Mr. RANKIN. What did he tell you he did then?

Mr. CURRY. He took charge of the investigation.

Mr. RANKIN. What did he do about the building?

Mr. CURRY. He had it sealed off. This perhaps would have been perhaps, 5, 8, 10 minutes after the original----

Mr. RANKIN. About what time?

Mr. CURRY. I would say perhaps 12:40.

Mr. RANKIN. And was that before or after a description of Lee Oswald was put on the radio?

Mr. CURRY.I couldn't say whether it was before or after.

Mr. RANKIN. What else happened?

Mr. CURRY. I think he perhaps was the one who gave that description, I am not sure.

A deputy chief of services who was in the pilot car ahead of us, was at Love Field, and he had some more Secret Service men with him, I believe.

Mr. RANKIN. Who is that?

Mr. CURRY. George Lumpkin. George L. Lumpkin. He asked me at the hospital if I didn't want him to go back to the Texas School Book Depository and assist in the search of the building and I told him yes, and he did go back, and took over on the search of the building then.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he report to you later what he did about that?

Mr. CURRY. Yes, he did. He told me that he had sealed it off and he appointed two search teams to search the building from top to bottom, starting at the bottom and going to the top and starting at the top and going to the bottom.

Mr. McCLOY. Who was this man?

Mr. CURRY. George L. Lumpkin.

Mr. McCLOY. Secret Service?

Mr. CURRY. No.

Mr. McCLOY. On your staff?

Mr. CURRY. No; he is a police officer.

Mr. RANKIN. Was he an assistant chief?

Mr. CURRY. He is not an assistant chief. Each of the divisions have a deputy chief in charge of them. I have one assistant chief and four deputy chiefs.

Mr. RANKIN. And this was a deputy chief?

Mr. CURRY. A deputy chief; yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Under your system the highest civil service status is inspector, is it?

Mr. CURRY. That is correct.

Mr. RANKIN. And the other officers are appointed?

Mr. CURRY. Appointed, yes.

Mr. RANKIN. By you?

Mr. CURRY. By me, yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, these two teams that you referred to that the deputy chief appointed to search the building, do you know how many officers were in those teams?

Mr. CURRY. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether the search was made?

Mr. CURRY. They reported to me that it was made, yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know what else happened in regard to the building or the search for the assassin?

Mr. CURRY. After it was searched I understand it was sealed off and they were asked not to let anybody come or go from the building until further orders.

Mr. RANKIN. Then what happened after that?

Mr. DULLES. Could I inquire there. I thought it was sealed off previous to the search according to your previous testimony.

Mr. CURRY. It was. But after they searched it and all of the investigators left there, they asked Mr. Truly, I believe, the building manager, not to let anybody come and go.

Mr. DULLES. Was that supplemented, though, by the police?

Mr. CURRY. Yes; I believe we had officers there.

Mr. DULLES. Then there were in a way two sealings off. One that you gave the order was given 8 or 10 minutes----

Mr. CURRY. Almost immediately, yes.

Mr. DULLES. After the assassination, and then the other one was after this search had been made.

Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. There is one element I am not clear on, I may be anticipating, Mr. Rankin. But I believe we have had some testimony heretofore, that Mr.--an officer went in with Mr. Truly into the building.

Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. And started to go upstairs, and they ran into Oswald on the second floor. Was that before the inspector got there?

Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir; I am sure it was, because this officer was there at the scene.

Mr. McCLOY. Do you remember that officer's name?

Mr. CURRY. No, sir; I don't. It is in the record.

Mr. BELIN. It is officer M. L. Baker. He was in the motorcade.

Mr. McCLOY. Did M. L. Baker purport to seal off the building?

Mr. CURRY. No, sir; he didn't. The first officers in there were rushing up to the upper floors.