Part 24

TESTIMONY OF JESSE EDWARD CURRY, J. W. FRITZ, T. L. BAKER, AND J. C. DAY

The President's Commission met at 9:10 a.m. on April 22, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C.

Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Senator John Sherman Cooper, Representative Gerald R. Ford, John J. McCloy, and Allen W. Dulles, members.

Also present were J. Lee Rankin, general counsel; Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel; David W. Belin, assistant counsel; Melvin Aron Eisenberg, assistant counsel; Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel; Norman Redlich, assistant counsel; Charles Murray, observer; Waggoner Carr, attorney general of Texas; and Dean Robert G. Storey, special counsel to the attorney general of Texas.

TESTIMONY OF JESSE EDWARD CURRY

The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will come to order.

Chief, we have asked you to come here this morning, you and some of your officers, for the purpose of taking their testimony concerning the matters surrounding the arrest and the death of Lee Oswald at the time of the assassination of the President.

I think we will take the testimony of you, Captain Fritz, Lieutenant Day, and Lieutenant Baker. I want to say to you, Chief, before I leave, I will have to leave after an hour or so in order to sit on some cases we are hearing in the Supreme Court but I want to say to you beforehand that our staff was very much pleased with the cooperation that it received from your people when they were down in Dallas, and from the help that you personally gave to them, and made it very helpful, they were very helpful, and we did need to have speed at that particular time, because, as you know, we were obliged to wait until the Ruby trial was over before we could come down there at all.

So, we appreciate the assistance that your people gave us throughout that proceeding.

Now, would you please rise, Chief, and raise your right hand to be sworn.

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give before this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. CURRY. I do.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Rankin, our Chief Counsel, will interrogate you, Chief. Mr. Rankin, will you proceed?

Mr. RANKIN. Yes; Mr. Chief Justice. Chief Curry, you gave a deposition for the Commission recently, did you not?

Mr. CURRY. Yes; I did, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. That was about April 15, 1964?

Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. And that was down in Dallas that you gave it?

Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir; it was.

Mr. RANKIN. And Mr. Hubert examined you?

Mr. CURRY. That is true.

Mr. RANKIN. That was taken down by a court reporter?

Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you have anything to add to what you said at that time or wish to correct it in any way?

Mr. CURRY. I can't recall of anything that I should correct or add to.

Mr. RANKIN. I ask you those questions in a general way, we will go back to certain parts of that but I would like to proceed at this time in view of the fact that the Chief Justice and possibly other members of the Commission who will come may not be able to be here all the time that you are being examined and I would like to get to certain crucial matters if I may.

When did you learn of the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. CURRY. While I was out at Parkland Hospital.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know about what time that was, the day?

Mr. CURRY. It was on the 22d and the best I recall it was around 1 o'clock or maybe a little after 1 o'clock.

Mr. RANKIN. How did that come to your attention?

Mr. CURRY. Some of my officers came to me and said they had arrested a suspect in the shooting of our Officer Tippit.

Mr. RANKIN. What else did they say?

Mr. CURRY. They also told me a little later, I believe, that he was a suspect also in the assassination of the President.

Mr. RANKIN. What did you do then?

Mr. CURRY. I didn't do anything at the time. I was at the hospital, and I remained at the hospital until some of the Secret Service asked me to prepare two cars that we were informed that President Kennedy had expired and we were requested to furnish two cars for President Johnson and some of his staff to return to Love Field.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you do that?

Mr. CURRY. Yes; I did.

Mr. RANKIN. What else--what did you do after that?

Mr. CURRY. After the planes departed from Love Field, I was there for the inauguration of the President, and then we left the plane, and Judge Sarah Hughes and myself, and I remained at Love for some, I guess perhaps an hour.

Mr. RANKIN. By inauguration, you mean the swearing in of the President?

Mr. CURRY. That is right, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. On the plane?

Mr. CURRY. On the plane; yes.

Mr. RANKIN. And then you left Love Field?

Mr. CURRY. I talked to Mayor Cabell and his wife for a little while and after the plane left Love Field then I left Love Field.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you go with Judge Hughes or she go with you?

Mr. CURRY. No; she was in her own car.

Mr. RANKIN. I see.

Mr. CURRY. And I returned to the city hall.

Mr. DULLES. Did I understand correctly, how long were you at Love Field after the plane of the President left?

Mr. CURRY. As I recall it was approximately an hour.

Mr. DULLES. That is what I thought.

Mr. CURRY. We waited there until the casket bearing the President, and then the cars bearing Mrs. Kennedy arrived, and it was, I would judge an hour perhaps.

Mr. RANKIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. CURRY. I returned to my office at city hall.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you do anything about Lee Harvey Oswald at that time?

Mr. CURRY. No. As I went into the city hall it was overrun with the news media.

Mr. RANKIN. What did you do about that?

Mr. CURRY. I didn't do anything. They were jammed into the north hall of the third floor, which are the offices of the criminal investigation division. The television trucks, there were several of them around the city hall. I went into my administrative offices, I saw cables coming through the administrative assistant office and through the deputy chief of traffic through his office, and running through the hall they had a live TV set up on the third floor, and it was a bedlam of confusion.

Mr. RANKIN. Did anyone of the police department give them permission to do this?

Mr. CURRY. I noticed--well, I don't know who gave them permission because I wasn't there. When I returned they were up there.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you inquire about whether permission had been given?

Mr. CURRY. No; I didn't. We had in the past had always permitted free movement of the press around the city hall but we had never been faced with anything like this before where we had national and international news media descending upon us in this manner.

Mr. RANKIN. Could you describe to the Commission the difference this time as compared with the ordinary case that you have handled?

Mr. CURRY. Well, the ordinary case, perhaps we have two or three or maybe a half dozen reporters, we have a room for them on the third floor where they normally on assignment at city hall they stay in this room.

As prisoners are brought to and from the interrogation offices, it is necessary to bring them down the main corridor, and they usually are waiting there where they take pictures of them as they enter and as they leave and they sometimes try to ask them questions.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, how was this different?

Mr. CURRY. That there was such total confusion here. We had to post men on the door to keep them actually from going into the office where they were interrogating. We had some men, police reserves and a sergeant, I noticed on the third floor when I come off the elevator.

They were stationed there, and they were screening people to see whether or not they had business on the third floor because we did have to carry on our other normal business, the burglary and theft and the juvenile bureau and the auto theft bureau, the forgery bureau all of these are on the third floor in this wing.

The CHAIRMAN. Chief, is this building just a police building or a municipal building, general purposes?

Mr. CURRY. It is a section of the municipal building.

The CHAIRMAN. A section of it. Is it isolated from the rest of it?

Mr. CURRY. No; it is connected.

The CHAIRMAN. Connected?

Mr. CURRY. Yes. And on the first floor we have the courts and the traffic violations bureau.

In the basement it is principally police offices. On the second floor we have the city planning commission, and we have part of our traffic division and special service bureau on the second floor.

Then on the third floor we have the criminal investigation division. We have the police dispatcher's office, and we have the administrative offices and we have the personnel offices.

The CHAIRMAN. I see.

Mr. CURRY. But all these are connected with the municipal building, each floor is.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you have anything to do with the interrogation of Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. CURRY. No, sir; I did not. I was in the office once or twice while he was being interrogated but I never asked him any question myself.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know who did?

Mr. CURRY. Captain Fritz principally interrogated him, I believe.

Mr. RANKIN. Was that his responsibility?

Mr. CURRY. Yes; it was. There were several people in the office. It seems to me we were violating every principle of interrogation, the method by which we had to interrogate.

Mr. RANKIN. Will you explain to the Commission what you mean by that?

Mr. CURRY. Ordinarily an interrogator in interrogating a suspect will have him in a quiet room alone or perhaps with one person there.

Mr. RANKIN. Is that your regular practice?

Mr. CURRY. That is the regular practice.

Mr. RANKIN. Tell us how this was done?

Mr. CURRY. This we had representatives from the Secret Service, we had representatives from the FBI, we had representatives from the Ranger Force, and they were--and then one or two detectives from the homicide bureau. This was, well, it was just against all principles of good interrogation practice.

Mr. RANKIN. By representatives can you tell us how many were from each of these agencies that you describe?

Mr. CURRY. I can't be sure. I recall I believe two from the FBI, one or two, Inspector Kelley was there from Secret Service, and I believe another one of his men was there. There was one, I recall seeing one man from the Rangers. I don't recall who he was. I just remember now that there was one.

Captain Fritz, and one or two of his detectives--this was in a small office.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you do anything about this when you found out there were so many, did you give any instructions about it?

Mr. CURRY. No; I didn't. This was an unusual case. In fact, I had received a call from the FBI requesting that they have a representative from there in the hearing room. And we were trying to cooperate with all agencies concerned in this, and I called Captain Fritz and asked him to permit a representative of the FBI to come in.

Mr. DULLES. Who was directing the interrogation, Captain Fritz?

Mr. CURRY. Captain Fritz.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know how Lee Harvey Oswald was treated by the police department?

Mr. CURRY. So far as I know he was treated as any other prisoner is treated. He was not handled in any manner any different from any other prisoner. He had a scratch or two on his face which he received when he was wrestling with the police over in this theater in Oak Cliff. Other than that he had no marks on him.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he ever complain that you know of about his treatment while he was there?

Mr. CURRY. No, sir; he did not.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you give any instructions about the security or how he should be protected during this time?

Mr. CURRY. No; I personally didn't. Deputy Chief Lumpkin, who has charge of the service division which is the jail security, he told me that he had ordered that two guards be placed on him right outside his cell and kept there 24 hours a day as long as we had him.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know what was done about that?

Mr CURRY. It was carried out. He told me that this was carried out.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you have any further difficulty with the media, the various press and radio and television representatives during this time?

Mr. CURRY. Well, every time we would walk out of the office they would besiege you with questions and wanting statements and asking what we had found out, and did we think this was the right man, and they almost ran over you.

Mr. RANKIN. What did you do about that?

Mr. CURRY. I tried to maintain some order. I didn't order them out of the building, which if I had it to do over I would. In the past like I say, we had always maintained very good relations with our press, and they had always respected us, and this was something, the first time we experienced anything like this, to this degree.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you have any tape recordings of the interviews with Mr. Oswald?

Mr. CURRY. I do not have.

Mr. RANKIN. Did anyone?

Mr. CURRY. Not to my knowledge. Unless someone from the FBI or the Secret Service, if they recorded it, I don't know.

Mr. RANKIN. How many times was he interrogated, do you know?

Mr. CURRY. No; I do not know that.

Mr. RANKIN. You never examined him yourself at any time?

Mr. CURRY. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. RANKIN. Will you describe the place where he was kept while he was there in the jail?

Mr. CURRY. Well, it is in one of our maximum security cells, much the same as any other jail. But he was isolated away from the other prisoners, and there was two jail guards set immediately outside his cell.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you isolate him or was that in accordance with your instructions?

Mr. CURRY. No; this is customary with a prisoner of this type and Chief Lumpkin in charge of the service division had issued these orders.

Mr. RANKIN. What do you mean by maximum security in your prison?

Mr. CURRY. Well, we have some cells where they have cells that are locked and then you come out of the cell into a corridor and that is locked, and these are maintained from a master control box. That is a maximum security cell. Some of the others they just have a lock on the door and it opens out into the hallway.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you do anything about furnishing him clothing?

Mr. CURRY. We removed his clothing except for his underwear in order that he couldn't harm himself. When he was removed from the cell, of course, his clothes were given to him.

Mr. RANKIN. Was he allowed to shower and clean up.

Mr. CURRY. I don't think he ever asked for a shower while he was there. Had he asked for one he would have been permitted to shower and he would have been permitted to shave.

Mr. RANKIN. Was he treated any differently in any way that you know of than other prisoners?

Mr. CURRY. Except perhaps a little more security placed on him, a constant security. Ordinarily we wouldn't, except in unusual cases would we have a constant surveillance on a prisoner, and this is usually, if we felt like he might try to harm himself we would have someone there to immediately prevent it.

Mr. DULLES. Could I ask a question?

What was Oswald's attitude toward the police? Have you any comment on that?

Mr. CURRY. The only things I heard him say, he was very arrogant. He was very--he had a dislike for authority, it seemed, of anyone. He denied anything you asked him. I heard them ask once or twice if this was his picture or something, he said, "I don't know what you are talking about. No; it is not my picture," and this was a picture of him holding a rifle or something. I remember one time they showed him and he denied that being him.

I remember he denied anything knowing anything about a man named Hidell that he had this identification in his pocket or in his notebook, and I believe a postal inspector was in this room at the time, too, and someone asked him about the fact that he had a post office box in the name of Hidell and he didn't know anything about that. He just didn't know anything about anything.

Mr. RANKIN. Did it ever come to your attention that he ever asked for or inquired about counsel?

Mr. CURRY. Yes; I heard him say something. I asked if he had had an opportunity to use the phone and Captain Fritz told me they were giving him an opportunity to use the phone.

Mr. RANKIN. What did he say about counsel?

Mr. CURRY. As I recall he said he wanted to try to get in touch with John Abt.

Mr. RANKIN. A-b-t?

Mr. CURRY. A-b-t, I believe an attorney in New York, to handle his case and then if he couldn't get him he said he wanted to get someone from Civil Liberties Union.

Mr. RANKIN. What did you do about that?

Mr. CURRY. I told them to let him talk to them in an attempt to get his attorney and in an attempt to get some of his relatives so they could arrange for it.

Mr. RANKIN. Will you describe how it was handled for him to be able to talk on the telephone?

Mr. CURRY. We take them from their cells and we have two telephones that they are taken to, and they are put on these telephones and they are locked in, and a guard stands by while they make their calls.

Mr. RANKIN. Is that call secret or is there any listening in on it?

Mr. CURRY. No, sir; it is not supposed to be secret. I mean it is supposed to be secret. It is privileged communication as far as we are concerned, we don't have a tap on the phone or anything.

Mr. DULLES. Did he use this?

Mr. CURRY. Yes; he did.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether an attorney from Dallas was offered to him and came to the jail?

Mr. CURRY. There were some members of the Civil Liberties Union came to see us that night, and they said they were concerned with whether or not he was being permitted legal counsel.

Mr. RANKIN. Did they talk to you?

Mr. CURRY. No; they didn't talk to me. They talked to Professor Webster.

Mr. RANKIN. How did this come to your attention?

Mr. CURRY. He told me.

Mr. RANKIN. I see. Now, tell us what he said.

Mr. CURRY. He said that they had come down to see whether or not he was being permitted legal counsel, and Professor Webster is in the law school out at Southern Methodist University and he told them he thought he was being given an opportunity to get in touch with legal counsel, and they seemed satisfied then about it. We also got Mr. Nichols.

Mr. RANKIN. Who is he?

Mr. CURRY. He was president of the Dallas Bar Association or criminal bar. I don't know which, Louis Nichols, and----

Mr. RANKIN. What did he do?

Mr. CURRY. He came down, he said he had heard that he was not being allowed the right to counsel, and they wanted to see and so I took him myself up to Lee Harvey Oswald's cell and let him go in the cell and talk to Lee Harvey Oswald.

The CHAIRMAN. Who was Mr. Nichols, did you say?

Mr. CURRY. Louis Nichols. He was president either of the Dallas----

Dean STOREY. Pardon me, it is Dallas Bar Association.

Mr. CURRY. Dallas Bar Association.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

Mr. CURRY. He went in to talk to him and to see whether or not he was getting an opportunity to receive counsel and he seemed pleased, I mean he had no complaints. He told him if he didn't get John Abt then he wanted someone from the Civil Liberties Union to come up and talk to him. Then Mr. Nichols then went out in front of the television cameras, I believe and made a statement to the effect that he had talked to him and he was satisfied that he was being given the opportunity for legal counsel.

The CHAIRMAN. On what day was this?

Mr. CURRY. That was on the same day we arrested him?

The CHAIRMAN. That was Friday?

Mr. CURRY. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether Mr. Oswald ever did obtain counsel?

Mr. CURRY. I don't believe he did. But I do know he made some telephone contacts.

Mr. RANKIN. Did the police department so far as you know interfere in any way with his obtaining counsel?

Mr. CURRY. No, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know when Lee Harvey Oswald was arraigned?

Mr. CURRY. It was about 1:30 in the morning. That would be on the morning of the 23d, I believe.

Mr. RANKIN. How long did he--how long had he been in your custody then?

Mr. CURRY. About 11 hours. That was on the Tippit; yes, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. When you say that he was arraigned the following day early in the morning, did you mean for the Tippit murder or for the assassination?

Mr. CURRY. No; that was for the assassination of the President.

Mr. RANKIN. All right, will you tell us when he was arraigned for the Tippit murder?

Mr. CURRY. I was not present but I believe it was about 7:30.

Mr. RANKIN. That same evening?

Mr. CURRY. Yes; that would be about 5 hours afterwards.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall whether he was arrested first for the assassination or for the Tippit murder?

Mr. CURRY. For the Tippit murder. There were some witnesses to this murder and they had observed him as he left the scene, and this was what he was arrested for.

The CHAIRMAN. May I interrupt just to ask the chief a question?

Chief, on your arraignments does the magistrate advise the petitioner as to his right to counsel?

Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir; he does.

The CHAIRMAN. Does he ask him if he has counsel?

Mr. CURRY. I don't recall him doing that. I am not customarily present when a person is arraigned.

The CHAIRMAN. You were not present at the arraignment?

Mr. CURRY. I was present when he was arraigned for the assassination of the President. I was not present when he was arraigned for the murder of Tippit.

The CHAIRMAN. I suppose they make a stenographic record of that, do they not?

Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir; I am sure they do.

The CHAIRMAN. That is all I have.

Mr. RANKIN. Chief, our people made an inquiry whether there was a stenographic record. They don't believe there was any.

Mr. CURRY. I am not sure of that. I know at the time he was arraigned for the assassination of the President I was present there at the time. It was decided that we should, district attorney was there at the city hall. He was there during most of the evening.

Mr. RANKIN. Will you just describe for the Commission what happened during the arraignment for the assassination, who was present, what you saw.

Mr. CURRY. As I recall, I know the Justice of the Peace David John Stone was there. It seemed like Sergeant Warren, but I couldn't be positive but some of the jail personnel brought him out into the identification bureau.

Mr. RANKIN. How was he taken out? Were there several people around him, what was the security arrangements?

Mr. CURRY. At that time there was only, we were inside the offices of the criminal identification section. He was brought out through a door that opens from the jail into the criminal identification section. There was only about a half dozen of us altogether there, I don't recall who all was there.

Mr. RANKIN. What do you mean by the criminal identification section. Could you describe what that is?

Mr. CURRY. That is the identification bureau.

Mr. RANKIN. Does that have a room that this meeting occurred in?

Mr. CURRY. It is not a room such as this. It was in the little foyer or lobby, and it is separated from the jail lobby.

Mr. RANKIN. Did the justice of the peace sit or stand or what?

Mr. CURRY. He stood. He stood on one side of the counter and Oswald on the other side of the counter.

Mr. RANKIN. What floor is this on?

Mr. CURRY. The fourth floor.

Mr. RANKIN. That is nearest the place where there are some filing cabinets?

Mr. CURRY. Yes; it is.

Mr. RANKIN. And besides the people that you have described, I assume that you yourself were there as you have said?

Mr. CURRY. Yes; I was.

Mr. RANKIN. Was there anyone else that you recall?

Mr. CURRY. Not that I recall, other than the justice of the peace.

Mr. RANKIN. Will you describe what happened?

Mr. CURRY. Lee Harvey Oswald was brought in and the complaint was read to him, and here again he was very arrogant and he said, "I don't know what you are talking about. That is the deal, is it," and such remarks as this, and the justice of the peace very patiently and courteously explained to him what the procedure was and why it was.

Mr. RANKIN. What did he say about that?