Part 23

Mr. SPECTER. Governor Connally, other than that which you have already testified to, do you know of any events or occurrences either before the trip or with the President in Texas during his trip, or after his trip, which could shed any light on the assassination itself?

Governor CONNALLY. None whatever.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know of any conversations involving anyone at all, either before the trip, during the trip, or after the trip, other than those which you have already related, which would shed any light on the facts surrounding the assassination?

Governor CONNALLY. None whatever.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add which you think would be helpful to the Commission in any way?

Governor CONNALLY. No, sir; Mr. Specter, I don't.

I want to express my gratitude to the Commission for hearing me so patiently, but I only wish I could have added something more that would be helpful to the Commission on arriving at the many answers to so many of these difficult problems, but I don't.

I can only say that it has taken some little time to describe the events and what happened. It is rather amazing in retrospect when you think really what a short period of time it took for it to occur, in a matter of seconds, and if my memory is somewhat vague about precisely which way I was looking or where my hand or arm was, I can only say I hope it is understandable in the light of the fact that this was a very sudden thing. It was a very shocking thing.

I have often wondered myself why I never had the presence of mind enough--I obviously did say something; I said, "Oh, no, no, no," and then I said, "My God, they are going to kill us all."

I don't know why I didn't say. "Get down in the car," but I didn't. You just never know why you react the way you do and why you don't do some things you ought to do.

But I am again grateful to this Commission as a participant in this tragedy and as a citizen of this country, and I want to express, I think in behalf of millions of people, our gratitude for the time and energy and the dedication that this Commission has devoted to trying to supply the answers that people, I am sure, will be discussing for generations to come. I know it has been a difficult, long, laborious task for you, but I know that generations of the future Americans will be grateful for your efforts.

Representative BOGGS. Governor, I would like to say that we have had fine cooperation from all of your Texas officials, from the attorney general of the State, and from his people and others who have worked with the Commission.

Governor CONNALLY. Well, we are delighted, and I am very happy that the attorney general is here with us today.

Senator COOPER. May I ask one question?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes, Senator Cooper.

Senator COOPER. Governor, at the time you all passed the Texas School Book Depository, did you know that such a building was located there? Were you familiar with the building at all?

Governor CONNALLY. Just vaguely, Senator.

Senator COOPER. But now when you heard the shot, you turned to your right because you thought, as you said, that the shot came from that direction. As you turned, was that in the direction of the Texas School Book Depository?

Governor CONNALLY. Yes, sir; it was.

Senator COOPER. Do you remember an overpass in front of you----

Governor CONNALLY. Yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. As you moved down?

Governor CONNALLY. Yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. Were you aware at all of any sounds of rifleshots from the direction of the overpass, from the embankment?

Governor CONNOLLY. No, sir; I don't believe there were such.

Senator COOPER. Well, you know, there have been stories.

Governor CONNALLY. Yes, sir; but I don't believe that.

Senator COOPER. I wanted to ask you if you were very conscious of the fact--you were conscious of a shot behind you, you were not aware of any shot from the embankment or overpass. The answer is what?

Governor CONNALLY. I am not aware of any shots from the overpass, Senator. Senator, I might repeat my testimony with emphasis to this extent, that I have all my life been familiar with the sound of a rifleshot, and the sound I heard I thought was a rifleshot, at the time I heard it I didn't think it was a firecracker, or blowout or anything else. I thought it was a rifleshot. I have hunted enough to think that my perception with respect to directions is very, very good, and this shot I heard came from back over my right shoulder, which was in the direction of the School Book Depository, no question about it. I heard no other. The first and third shots came from there. I heard no other sounds that would indicate to me there was any commotion or disturbance of shots or anything else on the overpass.

Senator COOPER. Would you describe again the nature of the shock that you had when you felt that you had been hit by a bullet?

Governor CONNALLY. Senator, the best way I can describe it is to say that I would say it is as if someone doubled his fist and came up behind you and just with about a 12-inch blow hit you right in the back right below the shoulder blade.

Senator COOPER. That is when you heard the first rifleshot?

Governor CONNALLY. This was after I heard the first rifleshot. There was no pain connected with it. There was no particular burning sensation. There was nothing more than that. I think you would feel almost the identical sensation I felt if someone came up behind you and just, with a short jab, hit you with a doubled-up fist just below the shoulder blade.

Senator COOPER. That is all.

Mr. SPECTER. I have just one other question, Governor. With respect to the films and the slides which you have viewed this morning, had you ever seen those pictures before this morning?

Governor CONNALLY. I had seen what purported to be a copy of the film when I was in the hospital in Dallas. I had not seen the slides.

Mr. SPECTER. And when do you think you were hit on those slides, Governor, or in what range of slides?

Governor CONNALLY. We took--you are talking about the number of the slides?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes.

Governor CONNALLY. As we looked at them this morning, and as you related the numbers to me, it appeared to me that I was hit in the range between 130 or 131, I don't remember precisely, up to 134, in that bracket.

Mr. SPECTER. May I suggest to you that it was 231?

Governor CONNALLY. Well, 231 and 234, then.

Mr. SPECTER. The series under our numbering system starts with a higher number when the car comes around the turn, so when you come out of the sign, which was----

Governor CONNALLY. It was just after we came out of the sign, for whatever that sequence of numbers was, and if it was 200, I correct my testimony. It was 231 to about 234. It was within that range.

Mr. SPECTER. That is all.

The CHAIRMAN. Are there any other questions?

Mr. DULLES. I have one or two. Governor, were you consulted at all about the security arrangements in connection with the Dallas visit?

Governor CONNALLY. No, sir; not really; no, sir; and let me add we normally are not.

Mr. DULLES. I realize that.

Governor CONNALLY. Mr. Dulles, the Secret Service, as you know, comes in, they work with both our department of public safety and the various city police, and the various localities in which we are going. So far as I know, there was complete cooperation on the part of everyone concerned, but I was not consulted.

Mr. DULLES. I think you mentioned that there was a slight change in plans before the arrival in San Antonio. I don't know whether it affects our investigation at all. Do you recall that?

Governor CONNALLY. Yes, sir; I don't know whether it--I don't think it affects the testimony at all. I was merely trying to relate some of the problems that had gone into planning a Presidential trip into four cities.

Mr. DULLES. Yes.

Governor CONNALLY. And trying to arrange this all initially within about a 12-hour period which had been expanded into a little more than that because the President finally agreed to come the day before, and come into San Antonio on the afternoon before the Thomas dinner on Thursday night.

Mr. DULLES. That was the change you had in mind?

Governor CONNALLY. This was the change. This gave us much more latitude because it permitted us to go into San Antonio, which is one of the major stops, which was the major stop, really, because he dedicated the Aerospace Medical Center on Thursday, which meant we did not have to crowd Thursday. But there was a change, but not significant to this investigation.

Mr. DULLES. Do you happen to recall in general when the decision was reached that the visit would include a trip to Dallas, or was that always a part?

Governor CONNALLY. I think it was always a part.

Mr. DULLES. Of the planning?

Governor CONNALLY. Yes; I think it was always a part. There was consideration given, if you had to leave out some place, let us leave out Dallas or let us leave out this one or that one, but there was no question, I don't think, in anyone's mind if we made more than one stop in the big cities that we were going to try to make them all, San Antonio, Houston, Dallas, and Fort Worth.

Mr. DULLES. You do not recall seeing anyone approach the car outside of those who were in the procession just prior to the shooting, anyone from the sidewalk or along the street there, in the park, which was on one side?

Governor CONNALLY. No, sir; I sure don't.

Mr. DULLES. You and one other happen to be the only witnesses who have indicated that they recognized it as being a rifleshot. The other witness, like you, was a huntsman. Most of the witnesses have indicated they thought it was a backfire; the first shot was a backfire or a firecracker.

Can you distinguish, what is there that distinguishes a rifleshot from a backfire or a firecracker? Can you tell or is it just instinct?

Governor CONNALLY. I am not sure I could accurately describe it. I don't know that I have ever attempted to. I would say a firecracker or a blowout has more of a hollow, bursting kind of sound, as if you popped a balloon, or something of this sort. A rifleshot, on the other hand, to me has more of a ring, kind of an echo to it, more of a metallic sound to it. It is a more penetrating sound than a firecracker or a blowout. It carries----

Mr. DULLES. That gives me what I had in mind. I realize that. That is all I have, Mr. Chief Justice.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much. We are very appreciative of the help you have given us.

Senator COOPER. May I ask just one question?

The CHAIRMAN. We hate to have you review all of this sordid thing again.

Senator COOPER. May I ask a rather general question? I would like to ask, in view of all the discussion which has been had, was there any official discussion of any kind before this trip of which you were aware that there might be some act of violence against the President?

Governor CONNALLY. No, sir.

Senator COOPER. Thank you.

Governor CONNALLY. No; let me say that there have been several news stories----

Senator COOPER. Yes, I know.

Governor CONNALLY. That purportedly quoted me about not wanting the President to ride in a motorcade or caravan in Dallas. That is very true. But the implication was that I had some fear of his life, which is not true.

The reason I didn't want him to do it at the time it came up was simply we were running out of time, and that, I thought, we were working him much too hard. This again was before the change, moving San Antonio to Thursday instead of having it all on one day, and I was opposed to a motorcade because they do drain energy, and it takes time to do it, and I didn't think we had the time.

But once we got San Antonio moved from Friday to Thursday afternoon, where that was his initial stop in Texas, then we had the time, and I withdrew my objections to a motorcade.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much, Governor.

Governor CONNALLY. Thank you, sir.

TESTIMONY OF MRS. JOHN BOWDEN CONNALLY, JR.

The CHAIRMAN. Mrs. Connally, would you mind telling us the story of this affair as you heard it, and we will be brief, and we will start right with the shooting itself, and Mr. Specter will also examine you.

Would you raise your right hand and be sworn, please? Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give before this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mrs. CONNALLY. I do.

The CHAIRMAN. Will you sit, please?

Mr. SPECTER. Are you the wife of Governor John C. Connally?

Mrs. CONNALLY. No, I am the wife of Governor John B. Connally.

Mr. SPECTER. Mrs. Connally, tell us what happened at the time of the assassination.

Mrs. CONNALLY. We had just finished the motorcade through the downtown Dallas area, and it had been a wonderful motorcade. The people had been very responsive to the President and Mrs. Kennedy, and we were very pleased, I was very pleased.

As we got off Main Street--is that the main thoroughfare?

Mr. SPECTER. That is the street on which you were proceeding through the town, yes.

Mrs. CONNALLY. In fact the receptions had been so good every place that I had showed much restraint by not mentioning something about it before.

I could resist no longer. When we got past this area I did turn to the President and said, "Mr. President, you can't say Dallas doesn't love you."

Then I don't know how soon, it seems to me it was very soon, that I heard a noise, and not being an expert rifleman, I was not aware that it was a rifle. It was just a frightening noise, and it came from the right.

I turned over my right shoulder and looked back, and saw the President as he had both hands at his neck.

Mr. SPECTER. And you are indicating with your own hands, two hands crossing over gripping your own neck?

Mrs. CONNALLY. Yes; and it seemed to me there was--he made no utterance, no cry. I saw no blood, no anything. It was just sort of nothing, the expression on his face, and he just sort of slumped down.

Then very soon there was the second shot that hit John. As the first shot was hit, and I turned to look at the same time, I recall John saying, "Oh, no, no, no." Then there was a second shot, and it hit John, and as he recoiled to the right, just crumpled like a wounded animal to the right, he said, "My God, they are going to kill us all."

I never again----

Mr. DULLES. To the right was into your arms more or less?

Mrs. CONNALLY. No, he turned away from me. I was pretending that I was him. I never again looked in the back seat of the car after my husband was shot. My concern was for him, and I remember that he turned to the right and then just slumped down into the seat, so that I reached over to pull him toward me. I was trying to get him down and me down. The jump seats were not very roomy, so that there were reports that he slid into the seat of the car, which he did not; that he fell over into my lap, which he did not.

I just pulled him over into my arms because it would have been impossible to get us really both down with me sitting and me holding him. So that I looked out, I mean as he was in my arms, I put my head down over his head so that his head and my head were right together, and all I could see, too, were the people flashing by. I didn't look back any more.

The third shot that I heard I felt, it felt like spent buckshot falling all over us, and then, of course, I too could see that it was the matter, brain tissue, or whatever, just human matter, all over the car and both of us.

I thought John had been killed, and then there was some imperceptible movement, just some little something that let me know that there was still some life, and that is when I started saying to him, "It's all right. Be still."

Now, I did hear the Secret Service man say, "Pull out of the motorcade. Take us to the nearest hospital," and then we took out very rapidly to the hospital.

Just before we got to Parkland, we made a right-hand turn, he must have been going very fast, because as he turned the weight of my husband's body almost toppled us both.

Mr. SPECTER. How fast do you think he was going?

Mrs. CONNALLY. I don't know; very rapidly. The people I could see going by were just rushing. We were just rushing by very fast.

We arrived at the hospital and sat there what seemed to me like an interminable time, and from what I know was just a few minutes, but the thoughts that went through my mind were how long must I sit here with this dying man in my arms while everybody is swarming over the President whom I felt very sure was dead, and just when I thought I could sit and wait no longer, John just sort of heaved himself up. He did not rise up in the car, he just sort of heaved himself up, and then collapsed down into the seat.

Mr. SPECTER. At that time you and Governor Connally were still on the jump seats of the car?

Mrs. CONNALLY. Yes, and they had not--the President was still--and Mrs. Kennedy were still in the back. I still had not ever looked back at the back seat after the second shot. I could hear, you know, hear them talking about how sad, and lamenting the fact that the President was in such poor shape and, of course, they didn't know whether he was--I guess they didn't know whether he was alive or dead.

Mr. SPECTER. Did President Kennedy say anything at all after the shooting?

Mrs. CONNALLY. He did not say anything. Mrs. Kennedy said, the first thing I recall her saying was, after the first shot, and I heard her say, "Jack, they have killed my husband," and then there was the second shot, and then after the third shot she said, "They have killed my husband. I have his brains in my hand," and she repeated that several times, and that was all the conversation.

Mr. SPECTER. From that point forward you say you had your eyes to the front so you did not have a chance----

Mrs. CONNALLY. Yes, because I had him, and I really didn't think about looking back anyway, but I could just see the car rushing along, and people and things rushing past us. I remember thinking what a terrible sight this must be to those people, to see these two shot-up men, and it was a terribly horrifying thing, and I think that is about as I remember it.

Mr. SPECTER. What happened then after you got to the hospital?

Mrs. CONNALLY. We got to the hospital and, like I said, John heaved himself over. They still could not seem to get Mrs. Kennedy or the President out of the back of the car, but someone scooped him up in their arms and put him on a stretcher. There were two stretchers there, and then they took him off immediately to the emergency room, and they ran down the hall with the stretcher, and I just ran along with them.

They took him into the emergency room, and right behind us came the President on a stretcher, and they took him and put him in a room to the right. There was much commotion and confusion. There were lots of what I assumed were Secret Service men rushing in with machine guns, I guess, or tommyguns. I am not real sure, they were big arms of some sort. There was no one--there were lots of people across the hall. There was no one with me and, of course, my thoughts then were, I guess like any other woman, I wondered if all the doctors were in the room on the left, and they were not taking too good care of my husband on the right. I shouldn't have worried about that, should I?

I knew no one in the hospital and I was alone. Twice I got up and opened the door into the emergency room, and I could hear John and I could see him moving, and I knew then that he was still alive.

I guess that time was short, too. It seemed endless. Somebody rushed out, I thought it was a nurse, and handed me one cuff link. I later read that it was a lady doctor.

They took him out of there very soon up to surgery, and I just left with him and waited in an office. Do you know whose office I was in? It was where you came to me.

Dr. GREGORY. Dr. Jenkins' office.

Dr. SHAW. Yes. You were either in the anesthesia office or in the room that is part of the recovery room. Was it the same place where you later stayed, Mrs. Connally?

Mrs. CONNALLY. No.

Dr. GREGORY. I think it was back in Dr. Jenkins' office. That is where I believe I first saw you.

Mrs. CONNALLY. I believe that is right.

As soon as Dr. Shaw found that he had some encouraging news, that the wounds were not as extensive as he had thought they could be or might be, he sent that word to me from the operating room, and that was good news.

I then asked if I couldn't go see Mrs. Kennedy, and they told me that she had left the hospital.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you visited at the hospital by Mrs. Johnson?

Mrs. CONNALLY. Yes, I was. But I assume that was before, since they left together, not much of a visit. She came by and we didn't have to say much, and then they left.

Mr. SPECTER. Mrs. Connally, what was your impression, if any, as to the source of the shots?

Mrs. CONNALLY. Well, I had no thought of whether they were high or low or where. They just came from the right; sounded like they were to my right.

Mr. SPECTER. How many did you hear in all?

Mrs. CONNALLY. I heard three.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate on the time that passed from the first to the last shot?

Mrs. CONNALLY. Very short. It seemed to me that there was less time between the first and the second than between the second and the third.

Mr. SPECTER. About how fast do you think the car was going then?

Mrs. CONNALLY. I don't really know. Not too fast. It was sort of a letdown time for us. We could relax for, we thought we could, for just a minute.

Mr. SPECTER. And you mean by that since the major part of the crowd had been passed?

Mrs. CONNALLY. We had gone by them. The underpass was in sight, and I knew that as soon as we passed through the underpass that then we would be going straight to the Trade Mart for the luncheon, and I felt like we would then be moving fast and not have people on all sides of us.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you see the films this morning here in the Commission office?

Mrs. CONNALLY. Yes, I did.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have an opinion as to which frame it was that Governor Connally was shot?

Mrs. CONNALLY. Yes. I was in agreement with the Governor. I am not sure I remember the numbers so correct me, but I thought at the time that it was that 229--it could have been then through the next three or four frames.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything----

Mrs. CONNALLY. They were blurred.

Mr. SPECTER. With respect to the source, you say you thought it was to the right--did you have any reaction as to whether they were from the front, rear or side?

Mrs. CONNALLY. I thought it was from back of us.

Mr. SPECTER. To the rear?

Mrs. CONNALLY. To the right; that is right.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any reaction as to the question of elevation or level?

Mrs. CONNALLY. No, I didn't.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything else to add which you think would be helpful to the Commission in any way?

Mrs. CONNALLY. I don't think so.

The CHAIRMAN. Are there any other questions? Senator, do you have any? Do you have any, Mr. Dulles?

Mr. DULLES. I just have one question. Mrs. Connally, on one point your testimony differs from a good many others as to the timing of the shots. I think you said that there seemed to be more time between the second and third than between the first and the second; is that your recollection?

Mrs. CONNALLY. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. That is, the space between the first and the second was less than between the second and the third? You realize I just wanted to get whether I had heard you correctly on that.

Mrs. CONNALLY. You did.

Mr. DULLES. Thank you very much.

Mrs. CONNALLY. Thank you.

The CHAIRMAN. Mrs. Connally, thank you very much. We hate to have you review all this in your mind's eye again, but it was necessary to have your testimony, and you were very kind to come.

Mrs. CONNALLY. Thank you.

The CHAIRMAN. We appreciate it very much, indeed.

(Whereupon, at 5:45 p.m., the President's Commission adjourned.)

_Wednesday, April 22, 1964_