Part 16

Mr. CADIGAN. Normally they are supplied in, I believe, 1-, 1-1/2-, 2-, 2-1/2-, and 3-inch widths.

Mr. EISENBERG. So this was basically of a 3-inch width variety out of several possible alternatives?

Mr. CADIGAN. Yes.

Mr. EISENBERG. Is there any other information you would like to give us or any other testimony you would like to give us on the subject of the origin of the paper in the 142 bag?

Mr. CADIGAN. Well, possibly the comparisons made of paper samples from Jaggars Chiles-Stovall and from the William B. Riley Co.

Mr. EISENBERG. These are, you have mentioned two companies at which Oswald was employed at one time?

Mr. CADIGAN. Yes.

Mr. EISENBERG. You obtained paper from these companies, did you?

Mr. CADIGAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. EISENBERG. And you matched them to see if they matched--you tested them to see if they matched the paper in the bag 142, is that correct?

Mr. CADIGAN. Yes; that is correct.

Mr. EISENBERG. And your conclusion was what?

Mr. CADIGAN. That they were different.

Mr. EISENBERG. Yes. Anything else?

Mr. CADIGAN. That is about it.

Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman----

Mr. DULLES. Mr. Murray, do you have any questions?

Mr. MURRAY. I don't believe I have, Mr. Commissioner, but I would like to mention this off the record, if I may.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. EISENBERG. We have now the ultraviolet machine set up.

Could you just show us the difference in fluorescence?

Mr. CADIGAN. Yes.

Mr. EISENBERG. Can you explain what you have set up here, Mr. Cadigan?

Mr. CADIGAN. This is a portable ultraviolet viewer I used to examine the papers and I think probably what is most noticeable is in the manila tapes. The tape on the right is the sample secured November 22. The tape at the top is from the bag 142, and then the one in the, you might say, lower left, toward the bottom, is the tape that was secured December 1.

Mr. EISENBERG. You are referring to positions in the bottom of the ultraviolet machine?

Mr. CADIGAN. Yes; relative position.

Mr. DULLES. The one at the left is the one taken from the paper sack, isn't it?

Mr. CADIGAN. Top left; yes; that would be from 142.

Mr. DULLES. 142, and the other is----

Mr. CADIGAN. The one on the right is 677.

Mr. DULLES. What am I supposed to see?

Mr. CADIGAN. A difference in the appearance, difference in color.

Mr. DULLES. What do you mean? I see the violet and I see the white.

Mr. CADIGAN. Well, if you look at the two tape samples----

Mr. DULLES. This tape sample on upper left hand is covered up by this one. I wonder whether you shouldn't take out the later one?

Mr. CADIGAN. Yes; I think probably that would be better.

Mr. EISENBERG. Why don't you show Mr. Dulles the paper bag, 142, and the sample obtained November 22?

Mr. DULLES. Yes; those are the two we are most interested in.

Mr. CADIGAN. The observation I would make there is that the color of the tape on Exhibit 142, the sack, and the color of the paper of the sack 142, under UV, is the same as the color of the tape on 677 and the color of the paper.

Mr. DULLES. I agree on that.

Mr. EISENBERG. Let the record show that Mr. Dulles makes the statement as he is looking in the machine. Mr. Cadigan, why don't you compare it----

Mr. CADIGAN. By comparison----

Mr. DULLES. This is only as to color, that is all I saw. I saw some markings on it.

Mr. CADIGAN. That is right. This is only for color appearance under the ultraviolet light.

Mr. EISENBERG. Why don't you compare the sack found at the TSBD and the replica sack obtained 10 days later?

Mr. CADIGAN. Here again all that should be observed is the color under UV of both the paper and tape of the sample and the paper and tape of Exhibit 364.

Mr. DULLES. 364 is the paper bag, isn't it?

Mr. CADIGAN. 364 is the replica sack obtained on December 1.

Mr. EISENBERG. Ten days later.

Mr. DULLES. That is on the left?

Mr. CADIGAN. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. And the other is the sack?

Mr. CADIGAN. No; the other on your right is the sample of paper obtained on November 22.

Mr. DULLES. November 22, just after the assassination?

Mr. CADIGAN. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. There is a clear distinction here. The sample to the right, that is, as I understand it, paper obtained on the evening of November 22, has a more, a deeper violet shade, and on the other hand, the tape is much lighter than the tape on the sample obtained 10 days later. That is to say that the sample 10 days later is darker as to the tape but lighter as to the paper.

Would you like the opportunity, Mr. Murray?

Mr. MURRAY. No, thank you.

Mr. EISENBERG. We are putting in the sack and 364, the 10-day later sample.

Mr. DULLES. Sack and 10-day later sample. Which is on which side?

Mr. CADIGAN. The sack is on the left and the replica bag obtained on December 1 is on the right.

Mr. DULLES. Yes. I find there that the sample obtained 10 days later, and the sack which is on the left, that the sample obtained 10 days later shows a lighter shade of purple than the sack, and that the tape shows a darker shade of, I would call it, almost gray as against almost white for the tape which is on the sack.

Mr. EISENBERG. I have no further questions, Mr. Dulles.

Mr. DULLES. Have you anything that you feel you should add, anything in this general field that would help the Commission?

Mr. CADIGAN. No, sir; not as it relates to this paper and these paper bags.

Mr. EISENBERG. You will be called later for testimony on handwriting--I suppose you will be the person to testify?

Mr. CADIGAN. Whenever you want me I will be available.

Mr. EISENBERG. Did you examine the tape for microscopic--to determine the morphology of the fibers in the paper?

Mr. CADIGAN. No.

Mr. EISENBERG. Can you tell us why?

Mr. CADIGAN. I didn't feel it was necessary.

Mr. EISENBERG. I wonder whether you could do that, Mr. Cadigan, and send us a letter as to the results?

Mr. CADIGAN. Certainly.

(The letter referred to was later supplied and is set forth at the end of this testimony.)

Mr. EISENBERG. And also, did you notice how the glue had been applied to the tapes?

Mr. CADIGAN. Yes; you might say glue was applied all the way across the tapes.

Mr. EISENBERG. There are no discernible differences in them?

Mr. CADIGAN. The glue on the tapes would be applied with a brush at the time of manufacture.

Mr. EISENBERG. Is there more than one way of applying glue?

Mr. CADIGAN. Oh, yes. On some tapes, if you look at them either before or after they are used you will see a continuous line running right down the tape where they have used a wheel applicator, merely a difference in manufacturing methods.

Mr. EISENBERG. But you found a brush applicator?

Mr. CADIGAN. Yes.

Mr. EISENBERG. Will the same manufacturer use two different methods?

Mr. CADIGAN. He might or might not.

Mr. EISENBERG. In your experience, is it likely that he would use two different methods?

Mr. CADIGAN. I really couldn't say.

Mr. DULLES. Mr. Cadigan, I thank you very much for your most interesting and helpful testimony.

(Whereupon, at 1:50 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)

(Following is the text of a letter relating to the fiber composition of the gummed tapes in Exhibits 142 and 677.)

UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE, FEDERAL BUREAU OF INVESTIGATION, _Washington, D.C., April 8, 1964_. [By Courier Service].

Hon. J. LEE RANKIN,

_General Counsel, the President's Commission, 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C._

DEAR MR. RANKIN: During the testimony of Special Agent James C. Cadigan on April 3, 1964, before the President's Commission, Mr. Melvin Eisenberg of your staff orally requested Special Agent Cadigan to make a fiber analysis of the gummed tape on the paper sack found on the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository Building, Commission Exhibit 142, and of the sample of gummed tape in Commission Exhibit 677 Obtained November 22, 1963, at the Texas School Book Depository Building.

Fiber analysis of the two gummed tapes in Commission Exhibits 142 and 677 revealed that they were similar in fiber composition.

Sincerely yours, J. EDGAR HOOVER.

_Tuesday, April 21, 1964_

TESTIMONY OF DR. ROBERT ROEDER SHAW, DR. CHARLES FRANCIS GREGORY, GOV. JOHN BOWDEN CONNALLY, JR., AND MRS. JOHN BOWDEN CONNALLY, JR.

The President's Commission met at 1:30 p.m., on April 21, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C.

Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Senator Richard B. Russell, Senator John Sherman Cooper, Representative Hale Boggs, John J. McCloy, and Allen W. Dulles, members.

Also present present were J. Lee Rankin, general counsel; Francis W. H. Adams, assistant counsel; Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel; David W. Belin, assistant counsel; Norman Redlich, assistant counsel; Arlen Specter, assistant counsel; Charles Murray and Charles Rhyne, observers; and Waggoner Carr, attorney general of Texas.

TESTIMONY OF DR. ROBERT ROEDER SHAW

Senator COOPER. The Commission will come to order.

Dr. Shaw, you understand that the purpose of this inquiry is taken under the order of the President appointing the Commission on the assassination of President Kennedy to investigate all the facts relating to his assassination.

Dr. SHAW. I do.

Senator COOPER. And report to the public.

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give before this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Dr. SHAW. I do.

Senator COOPER. Do you desire an attorney to be with you?

Dr. SHAW. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you state your full name for the record, please?

Dr. SHAW. Robert Roeder Shaw.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your profession, please?

Dr. SHAW. Physician and surgeon.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you outline briefly your educational background?

Dr. SHAW. I received my B.A. degree from the University of Michigan in 1927, and my M.D. degree from the same institution in 1933.

Following that I served 2 years at the Roosevelt Hospital in New York City from July 1934, to July 1936, in training in general surgery. I had then 2 years of training in thoracic surgery at the University Hospital, Ann Arbor, Mich., from July 1936 to July 1938.

On August 1, 1938, I entered private practice limiting my practice to thoracic surgery in Dallas, Tex.

Mr. DULLES. What kind of surgery?

Dr. SHAW. Thoracic surgery or surgery of the chest. I have practiced there continuously except for a period from June 1942, until December 1945, when I was a member of the Medical Corps of the Army of the United States serving principally in the European theater of operations.

I was away again from December 1961, until June of 1963, when I was head of the MEDICO team and performed surgery at Avicenna Hospital in Kabul, Pakistan.

Mr. DULLES. Will you tell us a little bit about MEDICO. Is that the ship?

Dr. SHAW. No; that is HOPE. MEDICO was formed by the late Dr. Tom Dooley.

Mr. DULLES. Yes; I know him very well. He was the man in Laos.

Dr. SHAW. Yes, sir; this was one of their projects.

Mr. DULLES. I see.

Dr. SHAW. I returned to----

Mr. DULLES. An interesting project.

Dr. SHAW. I returned to Dallas and on September 1, 1963, started working full time with the University of Texas Southwestern Medical School as professor of thoracic surgery and chairman of the division of thoracic surgery.

In this position I also am chief of thoracic surgery at Parkland Memorial Hospital in Dallas which is the chief hospital from the standpoint of the medical facilities of the school.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you licensed to practice medicine in the State of Texas?

Dr. SHAW. I am.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you certified?

Dr. SHAW. By the board of thoracic surgery you mean?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes; by the board of thoracic surgery.

Dr. SHAW. Yes; as of 1948.

Mr. SPECTER. What experience, if any, have you had, Dr. Shaw, with bullet wounds?

Dr. SHAW. I have had civilian experience, both in the work at Parkland Hospital, where we see a great amount of trauma, and much of this involves bullet wounds from homicidal attempts and accidents.

The chief experience I had, however, was during the Second World War when I was serving as chief of the thoracic surgery center in Paris, France. And during this particular experience we admitted over 900 patients with chest wounds of various sort, many of them, of course, being shell fragments rather than bullet wounds.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate as to the total number of bullet wounds you have had experience with?

Dr. SHAW. It would be approximately 1,000, considering the large number of admissions we had in Paris.

Mr. SPECTER. What were your duties in a general way on November 22, 1963.

Dr. SHAW. On that particular date I had been at a conference at Woodlawn Hospital, which is our hospital for medical chest diseases connected with the medical school system. I had just gone to the Children's Hospital to see a small patient that I had done a bronchoscopy on a few days before and was returning to Parkland Hospital, and the medical school.

Woodlawn and the Children's Hospital are approximately a mile away from Parkland Hospital.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you called upon to render any aid to President Kennedy on November 22?

Dr. SHAW. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you called upon to render medical aid to Gov. John B. Connally on that day?

Dr. SHAW. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe briefly the circumstances surrounding your being called into the case.

Dr. SHAW. As I was driving toward the medical school I came to an intersection of Harry Hines Boulevard and Industrial Boulevard.

There is also a railroad crossing at this particular point. I saw an open limousine pass this point at high speed with a police escort. We were held up in traffic because of this escort. Finally, when we were allowed to proceed, I went on to the medical school expecting to eat lunch. I had the radio on because it was the day that I knew the President was in Dallas and would be eating lunch at the Trade Mart which was not far away, and over the radio I heard the report that the President had been shot at while riding in the motorcade. I went on to the medical school and as I entered the medical school a student came in and joined three other students, and said the President has just been brought into the emergency room at Parkland, dead on arrival.

The students said, "You are kidding, aren't you?" and he said, "No, I am not. I saw him, and Governor Connally has been shot through the chest."

Hearing that I turned and walked over to the emergency room, which is approximately 150 yards from the medical school, and entered the emergency room.

Mr. SPECTER. At approximately what time did you arrive at the emergency room where Governor Connally was situated?

Dr. SHAW. As near as I could tell it was about 12:45.

Mr. SPECTER. Who was with Governor Connally, if anyone, at that time, Dr. Shaw?

Dr. SHAW. I immediately recognized two of the men who worked with me in thoracic surgery, Dr. James Duke and Dr. James Boland, Dr. Giesecke, who is an anesthesiologist, was also there along with a Dr. David Mebane who is an instructor in general surgery.

Mr. SPECTER. What was Governor Connally's condition at that time, based on your observations?

Dr. SHAW. The Governor was complaining bitterly of difficulty in breathing, and of pain in his right chest. Prior to my arriving there, the men had very properly placed a tight occlusive dressing over what on later examination proved to be a large sucking wound in the front of his right chest, and they had inserted a rubber tube between the second and third ribs in the front of the right chest, carrying this tube to what we call a water seal bottle.

Mr. SPECTER. What was the purpose?

Dr. SHAW. Yes; this is done to reexpand the right lung which had collapsed due to the opening through the chest wall.

Mr. SPECTER. What wounds, if any, did you observe on the Governor at that time?

Dr. SHAW. I observed no wounds on the Governor at this time. It wasn't until he was taken to the operating room that I properly examined him from the standpoint of the wound.

Mr. SPECTER. How long after your initial viewing of him was he taken to the operating room?

Dr. SHAW. Within about 5 minutes. I stepped outside to talk to Mrs. Connally because I had been given information by Dr. Duke that blood had been drawn from the Governor, sent to the laboratory for cross-matching for blood that we knew would be necessary, that the operating room had already been alerted, and that they were ready and they were merely awaiting my arrival.

Mr. SPECTER. How was Governor Connally transported from the emergency room to the operating room?

Dr. SHAW. On a stretcher.

Mr. SPECTER. And was he transported up an elevator as well?

Dr. SHAW. Yes. It is two floors above the emergency rooms.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe what happened next in connection with Governor Connally's----

Mr. DULLES. Could I ask a question, putting in this tube is prior to making an incision?

Mr. SHAW. Yes; a stab wound.

Mr. DULLES. Just a stab wound?

Dr. SHAW. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. What treatment next followed for Governor Connally, Doctor?

Dr. SHAW. He was taken to the operating room and there Dr. Giesecke started the anesthesia. This entails giving an intravenous injection of sodium pentothal and then after the Governor was asleep a gas was used, that will be on the anesthetic record there.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know at approximately what time this procedure was started?

Dr. SHAW. I will have to refresh my memory again from the record. We had at the time I testified before, we had the----

Mr. SPECTER. Permit me to make available to you a copy of the Parkland Memorial Hospital operative record and let me ask you, first of all, if you can identify these two pages on an exhibit heretofore marked as Commission Exhibit 392 as to whether or not this constitutes your report?

Dr. SHAW. Yes; this is a transcription of my dictated report of the operation.

Mr. SPECTER. Are the facts set forth therein true and correct?

Dr. SHAW. Yes. On this it states that the operation itself was begun at 1300 hours or 1 o'clock, 1 p.m., and that the actual surgery started at 1335 or 1:35 p.m.

The operation was concluded by me at 3--1520 which would be 3:20 p.m.

Mr. SPECTER. You have described, in a general way, the chest wound. What other wounds, if any, was Governor Connally suffering from at the time you saw him?

Dr. SHAW. I will describe then the wound of the wrist which was obvious. He had a wound of the lower right forearm that I did not accurately examine because I had already talked to Dr. Gregory while I was scrubbing for the operation, told him that this wound would need his attention as soon as we were able to get the chest in a satisfactory condition. There was also, I was told, I didn't see the wound, on the thigh, I was told that there was a small wound on the thigh which I saw later.

Mr. SPECTER. When did you first have an opportunity then to examine Governor Connally's wound on the posterior aspect of his chest?

Dr. SHAW. After the Governor had been anesthetized. As soon as he was asleep so we could manipulate him--before that time it was necessary for an endotracheal tube to be in place so his respirations could be controlled before we felt we could roll him over and accurately examine the wound entrance.

We knew this was the wound exit.

Mr. SPECTER. This [indicating an area below the right nipple on the body]?

Dr. SHAW. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. How did you know it was a wound exit.

Dr. SHAW. By the fact of its size, the ragged edges of the wound. This wound was covered by a dressing which could not be removed until the Governor was anesthetized.

Mr. SPECTER. Indicating this wound, the wound on the Governor's chest?

Dr. SHAW. Yes; the front part.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe in as much detail as you can the wound on the posterior side of the Governor's chest?

Dr. SHAW. This was a small wound approximately a centimeter and a half in its greatest diameter. It was roughly elliptical. It was just medial to the axillary fold or the crease of the armpit, but we could tell that this wound, the depth of the wound, had not penetrated the shoulder blade.

Mr. SPECTER. What were the characteristics, if any, which indicated to you that it was a wound of entrance then?

Dr. SHAW. Its small size, and the rather clean cut edges of the wound as compared to the usual more ragged wound of exit.

Mr. SPECTER. Now I hand you a diagram which is a body diagram on Commission Exhibit No. 679, and ask you if, on the back portion of the figure, that accurately depicts the point of entry into Governor Connally's back?

Dr. SHAW. Yes. The depiction of the point of entry, I feel is quite accurate.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, with respect to the front side of the body, is the point of exit accurately shown on the diagram?

Dr. SHAW. The point is----

Mr. SPECTER. We have heretofore, may the record show the deposition covered much the same ground with Dr. Shaw, but the diagrams used now are new diagrams which will have to be remarked in accordance with your recollection.

Dr. SHAW. Yes. Because I would have to place--they are showing here the angle.

Mr. DULLES. Is this all on the record?

Mr. SPECTER. It should be.

Dr. SHAW. We are showing on this angle, the cartilage angle which it makes at the end of the sternum.

Mr. SPECTER. That is an inverted =V= which appears in front of the body?

Dr. SHAW. Now the wound was above that. They have shown it below that point so the wound would have to be placed here as far as the point is concerned.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you draw on that diagram a more accurate depiction of where the wound of exit occurred?

Dr. SHAW. Do you want me to initial this?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes; if you please, Dr. Shaw.

I hand you another body diagram marked Commission Exhibit 680 and I will ask you if that accurately depicts the angle of decline as the bullet passed through Governor Connally?

Dr. SHAW. I think the declination of this line is a little too sharply downward. I would place it about 5° off that line.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you redraw the line then, Dr. Shaw, and initial it, indicating the more accurate angle?

Dr. SHAW. The reason I state this is that as they have shown this, it would place the wound of exit a little too far below the nipple. Also it would, since the bullet followed the line of declination of the fifth rib, it would make the ribs placed in a too slanting position.

Mr. SPECTER. What operative procedures did you employ in caring for the wound of the chest, Dr. Shaw.

Dr. SHAW. The first measure was to excise the edges of the wound of exit in an elliptical fashion, and then this incision was carried in a curved incision along the lateral portion of the right chest up toward the right axilla in order to place the skin incision lower than the actual path of the bullet through the chest wall.

After this incision had been carried down to the level of the muscles attached to the rib cage, all of the damaged muscle which was chiefly the serratus anterior muscle which digitates along the fifth rib at this position, was cleaned away, cut away with sharp dissection.

As soon as--of course, this incision had been made, the opening through the parietal pleura, which is the lining of the inside of the chest was very obvious. It was necessary to trim away several small fragments of the rib which were still hanging to tags of periosteum, the lining of the rib, and the ragged ends of the rib were smoothed off with a rongeur.

Mr. SPECTER. What damage had been inflicted upon a rib, if any, Dr. Shaw?

Dr. SHAW. About 10 centimeters of the fifth rib starting at the, about the mid-axillary line and going to the anterior axillary line, as we describe it, or that would be the midline at the armpit going to the anterior lateral portion of the chest had been stripped away by the missile.

Mr. SPECTER. What is the texture of the rib at the point where the missile struck?