Part 13

Mr. STOMBAUGH. The viscose fiber I found in the bag matched in all observable microscopic characteristics some of the viscose fibers found in the composition of this blanket. This would be the diameter, the diameter of that same fiber would have the same size of delustering markings, same shape, same form, and also same color.

Mr. EISENBERG. Now, what about the green cotton fiber that you found in the paper bag, Mr. Stombaugh, how did that compare with the green cotton fiber--was it a green cotton fiber that your testimony mentioned?

Mr. STOMBAUGH. Yes; there were several light green cotton fibers.

Mr. EISENBERG. How did they compare with the green cotton fibers which are contained in the composition of the blanket?

Mr. STOMBAUGH. These matched in all observable microscopic characteristics.

Mr. EISENBERG. And those were what?

Mr. STOMBAUGH. The color and the amount of twist of the cotton fibers were the same as the color and twist found in these. Mainly the color is what we go by on cotton.

Mr. EISENBERG. Were they mercerized or unmercerized?

Mr. STOMBAUGH. They were not mercerized.

Mr. EISENBERG. How common is cotton as a fiber, Mr. Stombaugh?

Mr. STOMBAUGH. Cotton is the most common fiber used.

Mr. EISENBERG. And what about nonmercerized cotton, as to commonness?

Mr. STOMBAUGH. You would find more unmercerized cotton in use than mercerized, because to mercerize cotton is an added production factor used in cotton.

Mr. EISENBERG. How great a variation do you get in degree of twist?

Mr. STOMBAUGH. You are referring to between mercerized and un----

Mr. EISENBERG. No; within unmercerized cotton.

Mr. STOMBAUGH. This would depend on the quality of the cotton and the length of the cotton also.

Mr. EISENBERG. But I mean as samples come across your desk in your office, or as you read about them in books, is there a great variation in twist or a small variation?

Mr. STOMBAUGH. It depends--there is a small variation but this would depend on the type of cotton. There are different types of cotton, and each is determined from the length of the individual cotton fiber.

Mr. EISENBERG. Could you tell what kind of cotton you were dealing with in the blanket?

Mr. STOMBAUGH. No; because here we are not dealing with a full-length cotton fiber. We are dealing with a fragment of a single fiber.

Mr. EISENBERG. Now, could you determine whether there was a variation in the twist of the cotton fibers within the blanket itself as there was, you say, in the diameter of the viscose fibers?

Mr. STOMBAUGH. The twist seemed to coincide with the twist found in the cotton from the blanket.

Mr. EISENBERG. Yes. But looking just to the blanket now for a second, you said the brown viscose or the viscose generally in the blanket itself varied as to diameter. Did the cotton in the blanket vary within itself as to twist or was the cotton of a fairly uniform twist?

Mr. STOMBAUGH. No; it was fairly uniform twist.

Mr. EISENBERG. And you said the fibers you found, the green cotton fibers you found, in the bag were the same twist as the twist of the cottons which composed the blanket?

Mr. STOMBAUGH. That is correct.

Mr. EISENBERG. And just to tie this into the questions I was asking a few seconds ago, would this degree of twist be significant, that is can you determine under the microscope 4 different kinds of degrees of twist or 20--how many different degrees of twist can you determine under a microscope, just approximately?

Mr. STOMBAUGH. Are you referring to the same type of cotton----

Mr. EISENBERG. Well, when you get a piece of cotton?

Mr. STOMBAUGH. Or cotton as a whole?

Mr. EISENBERG. When you get a piece of cotton under the microscope and you don't know what type it is? I am referring to cotton as a whole.

Mr. STOMBAUGH. I see. The degree of twist could be--now if we are dealing with fresh cotton, cotton running right from the plant, then the degree of twist, this varies, and this could be used in the identification of the type of cotton. But in the manufacturing process quite frequently when the cotton is spun into yarns then this twist is affected.

Mr. EISENBERG. Well, at this point I am not interested in determining the type of cotton. What I am interested in is determining how significant the degree of twist is as an identifying factor.

Mr. STOMBAUGH. I would say no significance at all as far as the sole identifying characteristic goes, whether or not this cotton of this cotton has the same twist. The twist we use is for identification purposes only, supplementing other identifying characteristics.

Mr . EISENBERG. That is the only purpose I am interested in.

Mr . STOMBAUGH. Yes; that is the only purpose.

Mr . EISENBERG. But in getting to that, how valuable is it for identification purposes? I am curious as to how many--how much a twist can vary. As you pick up a random fiber, and put it under your microscope, I am interested in how much the twist can vary. For example, if there are only two possibilities, then it isn't too helpful that you get a match in twist, but if there are great variations in twist in cotton fibers as they come under your microscope, it would be helpful in making your identification.

Mr . STOMBAUGH. I see what you are getting at. There are great variations. Sometimes in a cotton fiber, the twist will be rather far apart. Other times it will be rather close together. This piece----

Mr. EISENBERG. So that the fibers, the cotton fibers, to begin with, matched in twist, that is, the cotton fibers you found in the paper bag matched the twist of the ones that are contained in the blanket, and you said they also matched in color?

Mr. STOMBAUGH. Yes, sir.

Mr. EISENBERG. I would like to ask you the same question as to color that I asked you as to twist. How many different shades do you think you can distinguish under the microscope in a green cotton? Would the range be just 2 or 3 different shades, or do you think you could distinguish between 20 or 30 different types of green cotton if you laid them next to each other under the microscope?

Mr. STOMBAUGH. No; the range in green cotton fibers, for that matter in any color, is tremendous. This could go to 50 sometimes 100 different shades which you can distinguish under a microscope. To the naked eye, it would look as if it is just green. But you could take, say five different fabrics of the same type that have been dyed exactly the same color or rather you think they are the same shade, and put the individual fibers under the microscope and there will be a big difference noted in shades.

Mr. EISENBERG. Now were the green cotton fibers in the blanket uniform as to shade between themselves?

Mr. STOMBAUGH. No; these varied.

Mr. EISENBERG. To what extent?

Mr. STOMBAUGH. They go from a green to a very pale green.

Mr. EISENBERG. So that the----

Mr. STOMBAUGH. Might be seven or eight different shades.

Mr. EISENBERG. So when you say there is a match, you mean the green cotton fibers you found in the paper bag were within the spectrum of shades that are laid out in the green cotton fibers from the blanket--is that correct?

Mr. STOMBAUGH. No. I forget how many different shades of green I found in this blanket. Under the circumstances, I considered the exact number of no particular significance. But we will say it might be possibly eight different separate shades, and the fibers I found from the blanket matched some of these shades. Not all of them; but there might be a medium-green fiber that I found in the bag, which I matched with a medium-green fiber from this blanket. It might have been one that had a yellowish-green tinge to it, which I also matched with the yellowish-green tinged cotton fibers from the blanket.

So unless the colors match absolutely, there is no match.

Mr. EISENBERG. Do you recall how many green cotton fibers you found in the paper bag?

Mr. STOMBAUGH. I have here in my notes "several"--

Mr. EISENBERG. Yes?

Mr. STOMBAUGH. I have here in my notes "several light green cotton fibers," which would be approximately two or three.

Mr. EISENBERG. Do you recall whether they represented two or three different shades?

Mr. STOMBAUGH. Yes; they were all different from each other but each matched the cotton fibers in the blanket.

Mr. EISENBERG. So you had two or three cotton fibers of two or three shades of green in the bag, and they matched against these two or three of the seven or eight shades of green cotton which were in the blanket, is that a correct recapitulation?

Mr. STOMBAUGH. Yes.

Mr. EISENBERG. And you say there are 50 to 100--approximately--green shades of cotton that can be distinguished under the microscope?

Mr. STOMBAUGH. Yes; I would say that is true. This would vary from dark green, of course, all the way up to light-pale green.

Mr. EISENBERG. Did you find anything else within the bag, Mr. Stombaugh?

Mr. STOMBAUGH. No, sir; that is all I found inside the bag.

Mr. EISENBERG. Now, what do you think the degree of probability is, if you can form an opinion, that the fibers from the bag, fibers in the bag, ultimately came from the blanket?

Mr. STOMBAUGH. When you get into mathematical probabilities, it is something I stay away from, since in general there are too many unknown factors. All I would say here is that it is possible that these fibers could have come from this blanket, because this blanket is composed of brown and green woolen fibers, brown and green delustered viscose fibers, and brown and green cotton fibers.

Now these 3 different types of fibers have 6 different general colors, and if we would multiply that, say by a minimum of 5 different shades of each so you would have 30 different shades you are looking for, and 3 different types of fibers. Here we have only found 1 brown viscose fiber, and 2 or 3 light green cotton fibers. We found no brown cotton fibers, no green viscose fibers, and no woolen fibers.

So if I had found all of these then I would have been able to say these fibers probably had come from this blanket. But since I found so few, then I would say the possibility exists, these fibers could have come from this blanket.

Mr. EISENBERG. Now, let me ask you a hypothetical question, Mr. Stombaugh. First, I hand you Commission Exhibit 139, which consists of a rifle found on the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository Building, and I ask you, if the rifle had lain in the blanket, which is 140, and were then put inside the bag, 142, could it have picked up fibers from the blanket and transferred them to the bag?

Mr. STOMBAUGH. Yes.

Mr. EISENBERG. Are there any further questions as to the blanket?

Mr. DULLES. Do you have any, Mr. Murray?

Mr. MURRAY. I have none, Mr. Dulles.

Mr. EISENBERG. Do you recognize Exhibit 139? Are you familiar with that?

Mr. STOMBAUGH. Yes; I am.

Mr. EISENBERG. Did you examine that in the laboratory?

Mr. STOMBAUGH. Yes; I did.

Mr. EISENBERG. Do you know when you made that examination?

Mr. STOMBAUGH. On the morning of November 23, 1963.

Mr. EISENBERG. Is your mark on it?

Mr. STOMBAUGH. Yes, sir; here is my mark.

Mr. EISENBERG. Which consists of your initials?

Mr. STOMBAUGH. My initials, and the date 11-23-63. Do you mind if I check to see if this is unloaded?

Mr. EISENBERG. Did you examine the rifle to determine whether it contained on its surface or crevices any hair or other debris?

Mr. STOMBAUGH. Yes; I did.

Mr. EISENBERG. Can you tell us how you made that examination?

Mr. STOMBAUGH. Yes, sir. The gun was to be treated for latent fingerprints also, so I wore a pair of white cotton gloves to protect any latents that might be present on the gun. I placed the gun under a low-powered microscope and examined the gun from the end of the barrel to the end of the stock, removing what fibers I could find from crevices adhering to the gun.

I noticed immediately upon receiving the gun that this gun had been dusted for latent fingerprints prior to my receiving it. Latent fingerprint powder was all over the gun; it was pretty well dusted off, and at the time I noted to myself that I doubted very much if there would be any fibers adhering to the outside of this gun--I possibly might find some in a crevice some place--because when the latent fingerprint man dusted this gun, apparently in Dallas, they use a little brush to dust with they would have dusted any fibers off the gun at the same time; so this I noted before I ever started to really examine the gun.

Mr. EISENBERG. Were you unhappy at all about that?

Mr. STOMBAUGH. I was; however, it is not uncommon for fingerprint processing to be given priority consideration. They wanted to know whether or not the gun contained any fibers to show that it had been stored in this blanket, and with all the obstructions and the crevices on the metal parts of this gun, ordinarily a fiber would adhere pretty well, unless you take a brush and brush it off, and then you brush it on the floor and it is lost.

Mr. EISENBERG. Who was "they," you said "they" wanted to know?

Mr. STOMBAUGH. Well, this is our Dallas office. They sent the gun in wanting to know this fact.

Mr. EISENBERG. Proceed.

Mr. DULLES. It was dusted by the Dallas police, was it, first?

Mr. STOMBAUGH. I don't know who dusted it.

Mr. EISENBERG. For the record, I believe that will be shown later that it was dusted by Dallas police.

As far as you know, did it come into your office, into your laboratory before it went to the identification division, latent fingerprint section?

Mr. STOMBAUGH. Yes; I received this gun from Special Agent Vincent Drain of the Dallas FBI office. It was crated very well. I opened the crate myself and put my initials on the gun and at that time I noted it had been dusted for latent prints.

So I proceeded to pick off what fibers were left from the small crevices and small grease deposits which were left on the gun.

At this point of the butt plate, the end of the stock----

Mr. EISENBERG. Let's get that a little more specific if we can. Can you point to that again?

Mr. STOMBAUGH. In this area, the butt plate of the stock, this is a metal butt plate, you can see the jagged edge on it.

Mr. EISENBERG. That is on the left side of the butt plate?

Mr. STOMBAUGH. It is on the left side; yes.

Mr. EISENBERG. In approximately in the middle there is a jagged edge, jagged inside edge, where the butt plate comes into contact with the wood, is that what you are referring to?

Mr. STOMBAUGH. Yes; there is a jagged edge there. This area right here, according to my notes.

Mr. EISENBERG. Yes.

Mr. STOMBAUGH. I found a tiny tuft of fibers which had caught on that jagged edge, and then when the individual who dusted this dusted them, he just folded them down very neatly into the little crevice there, and they stayed. These I removed and put on a glass microscope slide, and marked this particular slide "No. 2," because this little group of fibers--little tuft of fibers, appeared to be fresh.

The fibers on the rest of the gun were either adhering to a greasy, oily deposit or jammed into a crevice and were very dirty and apparently very old.

You can look at a fiber and tell whether it has been beaten around or exposed much. These appeared to be fairly fresh.

Mr. EISENBERG. "These" being the ones that you found in the butt plate crevice?

Mr. STOMBAUGH. Yes; adhering to this small jagged edge.

Mr. EISENBERG. Before we get to those, were there any other fibers of value on the rest of the Exhibit 139?

Mr. STOMBAUGH. No; the other fibers I cleaned up, removed the grease and examined them but they were of no value. They were pretty well fragmented.

Mr. EISENBERG. You could not make a determination as to their nature?

Mr. STOMBAUGH. I could tell what type they were.

Mr. EISENBERG. Meaning textile type?

Mr. STOMBAUGH. Yes; such as wool, cotton, what-have-you, but the grease and the dirt had changed the colors which ruined the characteristics for comparison purposes.

Mr. EISENBERG. Could you tell whether they were old or new?

Mr. STOMBAUGH. They all appeared old.

Mr. EISENBERG. What about----

Mr. DULLES. What do you mean by old, 2 or 3 months old, 2 or 3 weeks old?

Mr. STOMBAUGH. Well, a length of time, I would say that in excess of a month or 2 months.

Mr. DULLES. In that area?

Mr. STOMBAUGH. In that area or longer. They weren't recently put in there. Let's say that.

Mr. EISENBERG. What about the grease, did you attempt to examine the grease?

Mr. STOMBAUGH. No.

Mr. EISENBERG. Why was that?

Mr. STOMBAUGH. I could see no need of it at that time.

Mr. EISENBERG. Let's return then to the fibers which you referred to as being fresh, which you said you found in the crevice of the butt plate, and I will ask Mr. Dulles' question in reverse: What do you mean by fresh, why do you call these fresh?

Mr. STOMBAUGH. In the first place, this was just a small tuft. They were adhering to the gun on a small jagged edge. In other words, the gun had caught on a piece of fabric and pulled these fibers loose. They were clean, they had good color to them, there was no grease on them and they were not fragmented. They looked as if they had just been picked up. They were folded very neatly down in the crevice.

Mr. EISENBERG. Were these fibers in a position where they could have easily been knocked off by rough use?

Mr. STOMBAUGH. No; they were adhering to the edge rather tightly.

Mr. EISENBERG. In the crevice?

Mr. STOMBAUGH. Well, it had the jagged edge sticking up and the fibers were folded around it and resting in the crevice.

Mr. DULLES. I think you testified, though, that might have been done in part by the dusting?

Mr. STOMBAUGH. Yes, sir; I believe when the fingerprintman dusted it he probably ran his brush along the metal portion here.

Mr. EISENBERG. Of the butt plate?

Mr. STOMBAUGH. Of the butt plate, and at the time the brush folded these down into the crevice.

Mr. EISENBERG. What led you to the particular conclusion that they had been folded into the crevice by the dusting?

Mr. STOMBAUGH. Because of the presence of fingerprint powder being down in and through the crevice here. It looked as if it had been dusted with a brush. You could make out the bristlemarks of the brush itself.

Mr. EISENBERG. Now assuming your conclusion is accurate that they were dusted into the crevice, and had not been in the crevice originally but had merely adhered to the jagged edge, how much--how rough a handling would it have taken to have gotten them loose from that jagged edge?

Mr. STOMBAUGH. Well, I would imagine if one took a brush and started brushing pretty hard these would have worked loose and come out.

Mr. EISENBERG. Would the use of the weapon itself have jarred them loose?

Mr. STOMBAUGH. I doubt it. I doubt it.

Mr. EISENBERG. I am talking now about the jagged edge position, and not the crevice position.

Mr. STOMBAUGH. You mean breaking them loose? They were adhering to the jagged edge.

Mr. EISENBERG. Yes.

Mr. STOMBAUGH. It might, of course--there are a lot of factors here you don't know, but they were adhering pretty tightly to the gun. I believe through ordinary handling of the gun eventually they would have worked loose and fallen off.

Mr. EISENBERG. What I can't understand is, when you are talking about the handling of the gun are you talking about the position in which you found them, or are you talking about the position which you deduced they were in before you found them brushed into the crevice?

Mr. STOMBAUGH. Well, both. The position I found them in. I had to take a pair of tweezers and work them out.

Mr. EISENBERG. Yes?

Mr. STOMBAUGH. And after I had the fibers lifted up which could have been the original position they were in, then I had to pull them off. They were wrapped around rather snugly to the sharp edge.

Mr. EISENBERG. Now, returning once more to this question of freshness. Would you say they had been placed there within 1 hour, or 1 day, or 1 week of the time when you received the rifle or longer?

Mr. STOMBAUGH. I couldn't say in that regard to any period of time. I refer, by saying they appeared fresh, to the fact that the other fibers I removed from this gun were greasy, mashed, and broken, where these were fairly good long fibers. They were not dirty, with the exception of a little bit of fingerprint powder on them which I cleaned off, and the color was good. They were in good shape, not fragmented. They could conceivably have been put on 10 years ago and then the gun put aside and remain the same. Dust would have settled on them, would have changed their color a little bit, but as far as when they got on the gun, I wouldn't be able to say. This would just be speculation on my part.

Mr. EISENBERG. In other words, you concluded they were fresh--well, you said you thought they were fresh, Mr. Stombaugh, and I don't quite understand now whether you seem to be backing off a little from that?

Mr. STOMBAUGH. No; I am not trying to do that. I am trying to avoid a specific time element, since there are other factors which may enter. I couldn't--this is something that I won't even attempt to do, just say this was on here for 1 hour or 10 minutes, something like that.

But I would say these fibers were put on there in the recent past for this reason. If they had been put on there say 3, 4, 5 weeks or so ago, and the gun used every day, these fibers would have come off.

Am I making myself a little more clear?

Mr. EISENBERG. Yes; you are making yourself clear; yes.

Now, looking at Exhibit 139, the weapon, and Exhibit 140, the blanket, do you think it is possible that the bulge you described before, which you marked "C," might have been caused by some component part of 139, the rifle?

Mr. STOMBAUGH. Yes. At the time I found the hump in the blanket which I believed you have marked point C.

Mr. EISENBERG. That is point C on the replica piece of paper you have folded up, marked Exhibit 663?

Mr. STOMBAUGH. I checked the telescopic sight on Exhibit 139, and noted that the approximate length and general shape of the scope----

Mr. DULLES. Exhibit 139 being the blanket?

Mr. EISENBERG. Being the rifle.

Mr. STOMBAUGH. Were approximately the same so far as length and shape went, and at the time I thought to myself it is quite possible the hump in the blanket could have been made by that telescopic sight.

Mr. EISENBERG. Did you attempt to match up the rifle into the blanket to see if that could be true?

Mr. STOMBAUGH. No; I didn't want to handle the rifle any more than possible. I took a ruler and measured the scope and then compared the measurement with the hump in the blanket and it was approximately the same.

Mr. EISENBERG. What about the relationship, the spatial relationship of the scope to the end of the gun, as compared with the spatial relationship of the hump in the blanket to the end of the blanket? Were those matching?

Mr. STOMBAUGH. From the way the blanket was folded at the time, and from measuring this, and not using the gun itself and putting it in contact with the blanket, just from measurements, I determined it is possible that the scope could have made the hump. In other words, the gun could have fitted in there. But I couldn't be absolutely certain on any of this. This is just from measurements.

Mr. EISENBERG. And visual comparison?

Mr. STOMBAUGH. And visual comparison; yes.

Mr. EISENBERG. Is there any further information you would like to give us concerning your examinations of the paper bag, the rifle, the blanket, or the shirt which we have discussed this morning?

Mr. STOMBAUGH. Just the fibers I removed.

Mr. DULLES. Are you going to go into the relationship of the fibers that were found in the jagged edge?

Mr. EISENBERG. Yes. Mr. Stombaugh, did you attempt to determine the origin of the fibers which were caught in the butt plate of the rifle?